22 September 2010


Irrationally held truths may be more harmful than reasoned errors.
-Thomas H. Huxley


  1. An interesting article in the Guard Britain's economy is broken. This is how to start fixing it

    ".... The basis of this moral economy is a common prosperity. Its principles are environmentally sustainable wealth creation, equality, and human flourishing....."

    What a pity they couldn't have written commonwealth I would have felt more inductively at home.

    Hello and welcome moonwave

    Montana - I noticed 'visitors' from Croatia and India recently. We should have kept a log and then we could have run a book on when the visitor from the last country in the world would call by, or even which would be the last country.

    PhilB - good to see you back. I look forward to seeing your poppy painting in due course. Poppies and barley two of my favourite images juxtaposed. A delight to behold. The booze and the opium. The mindless male and the flighty female.................coquelicots and orge..... even in translation the words look to have an appealing shape and sound

    A gentle breeze added to the two produces the most erotic plant dance in the world...just like two enthralled boys and girls slip sliding around together in joy.

    I'm sure you will do the imagery justice. When I finally tire of playing doctors and nurses it will be nice to gaze on the memory....

    It's no good pretending... if I were idling my time in a library and a nice lady librarian came along and whispered ..."coquelicots and orge" in my ear I would be hers instantly. No argument, no hesitation, no choice. I think Boudican et al will know what I mean.

    btw Paul/Chekhov thanks for your occasional enquires of my well-being over the last few weeks. It all helps comrades. Chek - Bitterweeds Northampton UT thrash is scheduled for anytime after 3pm on Saturday 2nd October. Pub and other details TBA when he gets back form his Scottish tour (Swifty/Jay/Paul and other South based UT's hope you get to call by)

    PCC hope your dog has a good day today and you enjoy each the other.

    3p4 I hope your day my friend is little less empty than yesterday.

    PCC/Jenn anybody with an interest in Incapacity medicals etc - I subscribed to welfare site got some interesting materials that you might find helpful if you have 'friends' who have to fill in a health questionnaire and attend a medical etc.

    If your friends are short of brass let me know and I'll share (via email from Montana) my password so that they can have access too. The site fee is about £18 p.a. not a fortune, but maybe a struggle if you living on Incapicity

  2. @deano:

    Doubt I’ll make it, much as I’d like to… weekends are for family these days, see little enough of my daughter as it is, what with work etc, to spend all Saturday pissing it up…

    Oh Christ. My 20 year old self would have been horrified at that entirely middle-aged statement, to be fair.

  3. Silly me I forgot to post this alternative 'free' link which contains useful stuff on the Incapacity medicals...Incapacity Benefit - Points Based Medical Examinations

    I'll paste a copy in our UT resources link (top of the page for new readers of UT) for future reference by folks as necessary..

    Sheff I was pleased to read that it looks a bit better for your job. Hope the no booze regime is not too discomforting. I ain't had a drop since Miss Diesel left you kinda get used to it.

    You should stop smoking. Five years ago I went from about 60 a day to non. One day a bloke in a white coat is going to tell me time has caught me and I have to leave too. When that happens I shall have the pleasure of starting smoking again.......you have to have something to look forward to.

  4. Swifty - I understand.

    ............still little girls might like to visit Lady Di's place....which I understand is somewhere near Northampton...........you could always call in for a ginger beer on the way home...I think its something to do with how you programme the sat nav.

    If not, I'm sure one day we'll meet 'down town' for a swift three or four at a weekday lunchtime...

    It must be said that despite my somewhat cavalier approach to being a parent the best things in my life have turned out to be me kids and me sometime wife. Fortune sometimes favours (unjustly) the careless..

    I'm away for the day.

    Regards to all.

  5. BTW - PeterJ, that link (yesterday) to the Northern Lights site is great. A must have bookmark as we go towards the 50 year peak aurora activity expected circa 2013.

  6. @ 8.35 "I would have felt more inductively at home"

    Fucking spell checker .....try

    I would have felt more intuitively at home but then I imagine that's how A42 and Leni would have read it anyway.

  7. @deano:

    ”…I think its something to do with how you programme the sat nav…”

    Don’t own one, mate, they’re an expensive waste of money. A bit of forward planning and a map gets you anywhere you need to go.

    ”…still little girls might like to visit Lady Di's place…”

    Hampton Court’s more her thing, to be honest – beheadings, ghosts, fancy dress and, particularly, the monstrous and terrifying shadow of Henry VIII which looms over the place.

    Anyway, you have a good day paisan, I've got to crack on as well.

  8. morning all!
    work still sucks but at least I can do some of it (pyjama clad and clutching a coffee) at home.

    deano - don't get your hopes up! my efforts at naturalism normally don't go brilliantly. but i will have a crack - christmas present for the oisette needs to be a good'un.

    moonwave - sorry didn't say a proper 'hello' yesterday - have been out of the loop for a bit and didn't realise you are new! do you post on Cif? good comments, btw...

  9. @ Swifty

    Warwick Castle would be a good day out for your daughter !, lots of ghostly ghouls there, and it is only 3/4 Hour away from Nottingham.


    What is, or who is 'oisette', or am I being thick ?

  10. tascia - lil french joke - 'oiseau' being the french for bird. so i was just asking how you would say 'female bird', and suggested 'oisette' ('ette' being a common suffix for female nouns). this caused so much hilarity from said french bird that it has stuck...

  11. Ahh - Thanks for the exp. I know some french speakers who would likely have picked up on that !

  12. http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/guy-aitchison/contest-hotting-up-as-final-stretch-of-voting-begins

  13. Thauma

    How much do you earn, I need to know so that I can decide whether, as a poor person, I can relate to you.

    What a cock.

  14. Having said that I have a strong feeling that I wouldn't be able to relate to Andrew Lilico, whatever our respective wages.

  15. "It is better for social cohesion that we are not forced explicitly to identify salaries. It is better not to know (particularly for the poor)."

    Tell me this is a joke?

    And does he not know the difference between homework and pocket money or is it rich person code?

  16. Nope, I suspect most people who meet him think 'prat' before even considering his earnings.

  17. Hi Dott

    Yeah a few people spotted that howler but what is the betting he got paid for his homework as well as his violin practise.

    I blame the parents. ;)

  18. Best to take an instant dislike to Andrew Lilico - it saves time.

    Fucking hell that was a pile of shit. Not just in terms of the utter bollocks he was writing, but in terms of being able to write.

    "Anti-drugs policy isn't trying to prevent drug dealers from making money – it's merely trying to prevent them from making money by dealing drugs."

    What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

    CiF ATL is getting shitter by the day.

  19. Afternoon all


    Have just read the end of yesterdays thread .I hope you're alright mate.


    Words fail me after reading that link.What a pillock!

    @If anyones interested there's programme on BBC2 tonight at 9.00PM about kids who are sent to boarding school at just 7 years old.Many of the kids who go to the featured school-Sunningdale Prep School- end up going to Eton when they're 13.

    Personally i think seding a child to boarding school at 7 is tantamount to child abuse.Dunno why the parents ever bothered having them.Problem is a high % of those who have real power in this country were educated that way.And many of the little sods featured tonight may well be the 'Lords and Masters' of the future unless we see raddical changes in this country.

  20. I'll be fine, Paul, cheers.

    I can't understand how any parent would want to send their children away, they're the best thing in life.

    Just read Vince Cable's speech - nice work, but my money is on him cracking up at some point in the next twelve months - the tension is there to see.

  21. It seems as if Vince Cables speech has gone over very well, and Tom Clarke for one seems to think he is a real threat to Cleggs leadership.

    What is the betting on some kind of personal or financial scandal (yes Andy Coulson I am looking at you) being headline news in the next few weeks?

    Not that Vince has done anything to make me believe he isn't just another politician on the make since the coalition began.

  22. Duke, what'd you say that got deleted on the Lilico thread?

  23. @deano

    It's actually quite easy for me to stop drinking, but not permanently. When I get to feeling rough, I stop the booze, sometimes for months, but it leaves me feeling a little flat, as if a certain joy has gone along with the hangovers.

    I was off drink for six months the other year and during that time, I went to a friend's party - quite a big one. Everyone was drinking and I felt very disconnected. Finally, my mate said to me, "FFS start drinking again, you're really boring when you don't drink".

    So I basically think if I wanted to stop drinking permanently, I'd have to give up all those parties and dinner parties where everyone else is drinking, because I just wouldn't fit in.

    Also, I can't imagine having no wine with my dinner for the rest of my life!

  24. Spike

    The reasons you thought giving up drink for so long are your own but I would have to say I don't think much of the friend who called you boring when you don't drink.

    They are no true friend.

    I have a love/hate relationship with drink and often find that I overindulge, so sometimes I hop on the wagon and yes it can make social situations difficult.

    If someone, even someone close, had a problem with that then I would seriously have a think about their agenda and how good a friend they really were.

  25. Damn that first paragraph got all mangled but you know what I mean Spike.

    I really need to get back to my revision, this won't help me pass my exam.

  26. "I suspect that this is particularly true in the direction from poorer to richer – someone who earns £20,000 per year probably finds it very difficult to relate to someone who it is discovered earns £200,000 per year."

    FFS:why didn't he just sign off with "Oh well, you're all just jealous anyway"

    Or maybe he did. I couldn't bear to read past the first couple of paragraphs of drivel.

  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

  28. @Spike:

    Yeah, I’m not much of a drinker these days. Used to be, but got back down to fighting weight earlier this year, feel a shitload better for it. Not a blue-nosed wowser, wouldn’t deny anyone else the pleasure, but I used to be very fit and I’m slowly getting back to something approximating it – not “fit to fight”, obviously, but still…

  29. Napoleon

    "Seeing as I am not well received on this site I will be brief:

    ProffessorPlums was banned on the 21st of July (from my checking of the UT page from that date- Jennifera noticed he had been banned.)

    CharleySays started posting on the 22 July.

    Someone ought to out him on Waddya.


    So why don't you 'out him' then...what's stopping you...expecting someone else to do it for you just makes you look like a spineless, pretentious little knobhead..no?

    And exactly why does he need 'outing'..don't tell me: he had the nerve to let you know he thought you were a "a spineless, pretentious little knobhead"?..I don't know why you venture out into these public blogs...back to 'playing the narodnik' are we?..nasty little peasants giving you a hard time again?

    Understand this Napoleon..however you may think you come over...and whatever 'support' you get from the low brow shitehawks who are always so pleased to see you: 1) You're a bit fuckin thick 2) seem to have no understanding of the way the world works 3) come over as a precious, over-sensitive moron with a tiny bit of 'learning' which doesn't half as stretch as far as you think...reading and blatantly missing the point of Russian literature doesn't count btw.

    How fuckin dare you post something exhorting a third party to do your dirty work and get someone banned...that's pathetic, backstabbing and reprehensible...maybe that's why you're not so 'well received' around here. Come to think of it..where are you well received?..last I heard you only had to set foot in a bar to get people screaming abuse at you...bit of a pattern emerging...maybe look into that and fuckin sort yourself out.

  30. @Jenn

    Think about it. He is a good friend. He just said that because he was drunk. :-) He apologised when I told him afterwards.

    I regularly give up for quite long periods because I have an unfortunately good head for alcohol and can easily get through three bottles of wine in an evening without turning a hair.

    Now I'm in my 50s, eventually, my gamma GTs begin to rise and it's time to give my liver a rest.

  31. @Swift

    I know what you mean. I haven't had a drink since Sunday and it's easier to work and I feel less shit during the day. As long as I don't go out with people who are drinking, I'm fine.

  32. @Spike:

    Of course, for every rule… last time I got properly pissed up, I spent the next day at work crying like a little girl to anyone who’d listen about how shit I felt. Suffered with that one for about 3 days afterwards, to be honest. Moderatio semper moderatio, as I possibly should have taken for my motto before ordering that 7th pint of 1664… actually, come to think of it, young Mr Reilly of this parish was with me on that one, I reckon it was only the fact he was clearly suffering as much as me that got me through it. Schadenfreude’s a wunnerful thang…

  33. I haven't had a drink since March, never noticed how bad the summers are in this country, since 1987.

    TV is just the same, except bigger, government just as mean, the newspapers seem to be a bit more pro-gov. Comedians more entertaining than insightful. Women who are ready to be sex symbols as a post ironic comment.

    I dunno, but I wish I could have a beer again and make them all go away.

  34. Crying like a little girl?

    I know it isn't important in the great scheme of things but really.

  35. thauma,

    what a fucking joke that deletion was on the Lilico thread.

    I made reference to the fact he is the chief economist for Policy Exchange (right wing think tank) and asked the Graun why this is not on his Graun profile. Seeing as his article is a blatant puff piece for his policy exchange donors.

    Three questions- why does the fact he is the Chief Economist for Policy Exchange not appear on his profile, secondly why was I deleted for bringing up this pertinent fact bearing in mind the nature of the piece and lastly what does it say about the Graun's agenda if this fact is deleted?

    There was nothing in my post that anywhere near contravened talk policy- no swearing, no abuse etc etc.


  36. @jennifer:

    I’ve a six year old daughter, trust me, you’ll not have seen blubbing like it until you’ve seen a six year old girl weeping copiously because the worst daddy in the world ever! won’t let her have a pet dog.

  37. Here's Lilico's Policy Exchange profile here

    I'll email the mods as to why bringing up this fact was modded for all the good it will do, but I genuinely am intrigued by this.

  38. Swifty I have seen equivalent blubbing, believe it or not by a little boy.

    I was babysitting and his mum wasn't home by 11 like she said she would be.

    Don't pretend that you didn't just use a sexist cliche.

  39. @Duke:considering the article was pathetic, it was inevitable the "moderation" would be equally absurd.

  40. Duke, that's outrageous!

    I haven't posted on it because I'd get myself banned.

  41. Today I had to contend with a mega tantrum from my 4 year old boy. He sat in the middle of the street and refused to walk. I sternly told him off - no dice, so I was forced into a humiliating climbdown where I had to promise him a kinder egg so he'd walk home. The joke was on him though - before getting his egg he had to spend 20 mins sitting on the step and then apologise for being naughty...

  42. @jennifer:

    ”…Don't pretend that you didn't just use a sexist cliche…”

    LOL, you provocative scamp. Almost had me fooled there for a minute, good work.

  43. Is it me or is the modding on Cif getting harsher.

    I'm not just thinking of the Dukes modding (which is ridiculous)but in general.

  44. I wasn't being provocative Swifty, I really think that you saying that you cried like a little girl is sexist.

  45. I really think that you saying that you cried like a little girl is sexist.

    How? That just seems overly sensitive to me. Little girls cry all the time.

  46. Glad the subject's changed, this was beginning to sound like an AA meeting!

    I've actually joined another organisation called Anonymous Alcoholics. We meet in the bar and buy each other drinks under assumed names.

    "Oi, Mr. X, it's your round!"

  47. I remember a certain female poster here accusing a male poster of being a 'wet girls blouse'.Don't remember anyone complaining about sexism then.

  48. @jennifer:

    ”…I really think that you saying that you cried like a little girl is sexist…”

    I know you do.

  49. Has anyone ever said that they cried like a little boy?

    Seriously, it isn't something that means a lot to me but has anyone?

  50. Jen, re:"crying like a little girl" it's just one of the subtle little prejudices that are allowed to pass, people think that they mean nothing, but they really do. A bit like me saying last night that gay men are the best dancers.

    Disgusted with myself, but within reason.

  51. I am amazed that considering the diverse nature of the people that post here the language is normally pretty good (as long as the words cunt and dick don't offend).

    However, if I find something sexist (ie I cried like a little girl posted by a man) then I should be able to say so without being cast as some kind of rad fem activist.

    Swifty what you did, when you had a hangover, was whinge like a middle aged man with a hangover.

    You didn't cry like a little girl.

  52. Exactly Habib, we all do it and we should be able to admit that we do.

    Words, they are important.

  53. An example of radfem misandrism:

    What are little boys made of?
    Slugs and snails, and puppy dog tails,
    That's what boys are made of.

    What are little girls made of?
    Sugar and spice, and all things nice,
    That's what girls are made of.

  54. @jennifer

    "...However, if I find something sexist (ie I cried like a little girl posted by a man) then I should be able to say so without being cast as some kind of rad fem activist..."

    I don't think anyone's accusing you of that, to be fair. I'm certainly not. Stop getting so defensive, no one’s attacking you here.

    Anyway, I was going to go into the nature of "juxtaposition of opposites for comic effect” but it’s not really worth it, is it?

    "...Swifty what you did, when you had a hangover, was whinge like a middle aged man with a hangover..."

    I sure did.

  55. Thauma, "I haven't posted on it because I'd get myself banned."

    I really don't like CiF anymore and I've never read a worse article from someone who claims to be an authority. So I'd rather burn out than fade away... Cigar for knowing the quote. :-)

  56. @jennifer:

    Actually, I take that "defensive" back. You're not getting defensive at all, you're just expressing an opinion, it was a poor choice of words. Apologies.

  57. So why didn't you just say that Swifty?

    You used a common term to describe your feelings, and it was a common sexist term.

  58. @jenn

    Of course, it's only sexist if you think there's something wrong with crying. You could argue that little girls are less afraid to express their emotions and when little boys struggle not to cry, it's macho posturing.

    Just being devil's advocate here.

  59. Damn now I look like a mouthy git.

  60. @jennifer:

    Grief. In what way, precisely, is it "sexist"? And not just a turn of phrase commonly used to juxtapose for comic effect the notion of a full-grown male metaphorically weeping like a small female child?

  61. @jenn

    Not at all. In the mouthy-gits stakes, you're a hopeless outsider. ;-)

  62. @thaum

    If we're on the same frequency, Kenneth, Bob Dylan, no? And she breaks just like a little girl...

  63. You are right Swifty, it is all about the comedy, women often use the phrase crying like a small boy.

    Hilarious (in a non funny way).

    It's meant to be insulting, hee hee a grown man, acting like a girl.

    The laughs they never stop coming.

  64. habib,

    as thauma correctly identified, it's Neil Young in (Hey Hey, My My) Into the Black.

    However, the Kurgan in 'Highlander' uses the quote in the New York church before licking the priest in an intimidating manner.

    Are you channeling the Kurgan?

  65. Spike, no, I was responding to Habib!

    Dylan is pretty sexist quite often but I still love him the unreconstructed old bastard.

  66. @The Duke

    Ah, I was on the wrong frequency.

    And priests are very particular about who they get licked by.

    I saw they're doing a sequel to The Exorcist where a mother brings in the devil to drive a priest out of her child.

    (perhaps I should have saved that one for an Andrew Brown thread)

  67. @thaum

    He's a brilliant songwriter and poet, and a pretty nasty individual - in my book, anyway. Also because of the refusal to have anything to do with the anti-Vietnam war movement and his unconditional support for Israel.

  68. habib/spike,

    Highlander, what a brilliant film. If only for Connery's opening gambit:

    "I am Juan Sánchesh Villalobosh Ramíresh, Chief metallurgisht to King Charlesh V of Shpain. And I'm at your shervish."

  69. @The Duke

    I could listen to Christophe Lambert's "Scottish" accent for hours. In the words of your namesake...

    >Whatever were they thinking?

  70. Habib, I'll see your Hey Hey My My and raise you a Down By the River.

    Spike - agreed!

  71. Good link from 'redphantom on the Lilico thread.

    How did that Lilico prat research his thread
    From the Duke's link 'He also has a Masters degree in Philosophy from the University of London.. Did he buy it ? It sure as hell sounds like he never studied for it !

  72. Very interesting, Tascia ... so basically the people who would be best motivated by the bonus culture are those doing boring menial jobs, and the fat cats will perform worse!

    Love those RSA guys (NO - NOT THE SPRINGBOKS!); I've seen something else by them.

  73. the fat cats will perform worse!

    And get paid Fuckin shed loads. At that level and even lower levels these wankers always seem to 'move on up' especially when they've fucked up and need to be moved elsewhere in the organisation.

  74. Ramirez was an effete snob, who died on his knees.

    Thauma, I don't bluff, ask Bracken, ha ha ha ha! I raise and see you.

  75. Tascia - bit like the Cafflick church, then.

    Habib - dunno why I'd ask Bracken's opinion on anything at all. Not worth the oxygen or fingertip wear, as the case may be. ;-)

    All right, I'm playing my hand.

  76. Oh Balls, got deleted from CiF, I'll try again.

  77. I love a man who is generous in defeat. I was going to play this card instead, but found the other and decided it was the winner.

    Think you might win on the reserve hand, although ... it *is* a bit country. *shudders*

    While we've got all this talk about card-playing ... I am deva-fucking-stated ... why did you throw the jack of hearts away?

  78. Habib, yes, you have been deleted! Totally bizarre modding. But the Duke's post on Waddya mentioning the same fact still stands.

  79. I really don't want to be part of that bollocks any more. Not going to go for the full out tirade, just going to test the moderator's patience.

  80. habib,

    did your deleted post make reference to Lilico's Policy Exchange role?

    If so, this is very interesting. Why are they censoring this fact?

  81. Here it is Duke:

    "My word, you'd think someone so important as his profile suggests he is, would learn how to write eloquently. Oh well, stranger things have happened:

    Andrew Lilico is the chief economist for Policy Exchange (right wing think tank) why is this not on his profile? Seeing as his article is a blatant puff piece for his policy exchange donors."

  82. Very pertinent question, your Grace. More proof that modding is completely inconsistent and in fact appears to be thread-based.

  83. I tried to stick to your words as best I could.

  84. Habib - your post is up and staying at the mo.

  85. No it's not. This is what is on cif

    My word, you'd think someone so important as his profile suggests he is, would learn how to write eloquently. Oh well, stranger things have happened.
    I think he makes some interesting points, but that they might be echoed by someone who works for Policy Exchange.

    have they edited your post ?

  86. Ahh I see they have deleted your 1st post which closely reflected the Duke. Your 2nd is a good attempt at getting back close to it !!

  87. In fact, the more I think about 'thread-based moderation', the more sense it makes. Well, in a Graun sort of way.

    Some subjects are untouchable. You cannot mention Tuscany on a Polly thread. Apparently you cannot mention Policy Exchange on a total right-wing wanker's thread, even if it's completely relevant.

    You *can* mention these things on frivolous threads like Waddya, which presumably the powerbrokers don't read.

  88. ... and let's not even *think* about the devastation on Blair/MacShane threads....

  89. Tascia, Thauma we're just playing the 70's game "Mastermind", but you have to guess what they want you to say by process of elimination.

  90. It's pretty fucking scary, though, Habib.

    Comment is free ... but facts are sacred?

    More like:

    Comment is constrained ... and facts are eliminated.

  91. Like that Thaum - think you've hit the nail there.

  92. thauma/habib/tascia,

    Policy Exchange is a particularly loathesome outfit who unsurprisingly are David Cameron's 'favourite think tank'.

    There's a Seamus Milne article here on there anti-islamic agenda and another article here.

    This year in the run up to the election they produced anti-public sector reports quoted by Cameron and Osborne.

    And like all think tanks (Taxpayers alliance in particular) they scream and demand 100% transparency from the public sector yet refuse to publish who funds them despite having a sizeable influence on Govt policy.

  93. apologies for the couple of typos above- there for their and loathesome for loathsome.

  94. Thauma
    "Some subjects are untouchable. You cannot mention Tuscany on a Polly thread"
    I'm now imagining a thread about building regulations in central Italy where every single post gets modded simply for responding to the article.

    That Lilico thread is ridiculous. If every mention of his 'job' is being blitzed, consider that he himself links in the article to this blurb for the bbc prog, which includes:

    "The BBC's Political Editor Nick Robinson is joined by mobile phone entrepreneur John Caudwell, Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee, philosohy professor Jonathan Wolff, and economist Dr Andrew Lilico from the think tank Policy Exchange. "

    try quoting that.

  95. people have private property; policymakers need a good reason to take such property away; and taking it away simply in order to make people poorer is not legitimate

    that's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on CIF, and I have a habit of reading Andrew Brown's articles, anything by beacampbellobe, or about homeopathy. cause and effect the wrong way round with a massive straw man stuck in the middle.

    "Property" is conceptually prior to "property rights". Any infant crying "mine" is aware of the notion of property

    what a fucking moron. Any infant crying 'mine' is aware of the notion of possession, not bloody property. is that really part of his argument? sweet holy grrrrrr.

    right, back to the football. come on scunthorpe.

  96. Duke - it's just the same old scene.

    P'raps if the Labour party tried it some of us might be tempted to vote for it again.

  97. Phil - we have missed your wry comments lately! Thanks for that. Made I larf an' all.

  98. Wow - Just finished reading those Duke, but not all the links. I remember that Paxman scene now. Will have to dig down a little more .. later !

    I also just learned that the 109E was a better plane than the Spitfire - testimonies from both sides agree !

  99. thauma - heheheheheh - the lilico piece is so dreadful that pen has come out of semi-retirement for it!

    "Overall the piece is facile"


  100. Yeah, saw that, Philippa! For once I agree with him!

    Am skating on edge of bedtime ... shamefully have not read the Duke's links ... fuckin work today and tomorra, what can I say?

  101. One of the most pathetic pieces I've seen for a long time, almost too much so to engage with at all . But i did a couple of snipings .

    MsChin -- Isawya !

    Feudalism Rules, OK! It's the Natural Order, with everyone obeying the Laws. Everybody in their place, no envies or jealousies. Yeh.

  102. I just can't bring meself to change me background pic from a Spit to a 109E. And I still run outside when I hear that Rolls Royce V12 in the air.

    'Petrol Head' -- sorry !!

  103. nice one thauma - needed something to cheer me up as manu are 5-1 up and west brom are now ahead v city...

    have organised thoughts a little on the lilico thread, but it took a couple of drafts to remove all the unparliamentary language.

  104. Well Done Phillipa.

    I havn't yet tried to post on Cif yet, and don't really know if I want to other than to post 'posts' that probably wouldn't last long !

  105. Saw your post Philippa - a good one (as usual).

    Have a mate who will be very happy about the Baggies being ahead. The one and only live proper footie match I've attended was down to him, so I've a bit of a soft spot for WBA, and a hatred for Chelsea. (Mind you, the mate was pretty chuffed that WBA only lost by 2-1 and kept pointing out the salary diffs.)

    Anyway, off now ... rave on, all!

  106. tascia - careful if you do start, it can become rather addictive....heheheheheheh.

    given the odd modding, i do try to avoid swearing so as not to give 'em an obvious reason to bin me. but sometimes it is just unavoidable. and even if you get binned, just getting it 'out there' can be very satisfying. i mean, the worst i've ever done was to call austin mitchell a a complete git. and i felt a lot better afterwards.

  107. Tascia - that's what temporary e-mail addys are for! Have a mate who's got a site set up specifically for that purpose (short-term tempo addresses) ... will try to remember to dig it out tomorrow.

  108. Silly little anecdote....

    Anyway I was watching BBC Midlands some while ago when Vince Cable visited Gaydon.

    He was there to see and talk about the 'green' movement within the Auto Industry, and to see the progress that Jag / LR have been making to reduce emissions, dual technology etc...

    Anyway Aston M's have been trying to make their V12 sound like a Spit/Hurricane for ages, whilst merc have been trying to make their V12 sound like a Messers. Boys stufffff !

    Aston share the Gaydon Test track with Jag / LR. Vince Cable was stood in the middle of the test track !

    Just as he was eulogising about the Green aspect of the Industry to the Mic, an Aston V12 at full bore went past -- beautiful -- drowned his squeaky voice out at the same time -- bonus !!

  109. Oh well, at least we have another alternative in the rhyming slang lexicon: "Think Tankers" anyone?

  110. Evening all.

    Now back on-line after the demise of my last PC, my dependence on borrowing someone's laptop over. Made me realise that the stuff on the telly is really flaming boring these days.

  111. 'Night, Phil et alia! Really off now...

  112. Well done Scunthorpe. United away at Bolton on Sunday. Be nice if Chelsea slip up.

  113. What are we to make of beautifulburnout, the straight-talking, sharp-shooting 'left-wing' extremely middle-class barrister who votes LibDem and who tirelessly 'bashes the fash' on Cif (but has a second home in France) and defends immigrants in court for a relatively modest fee? How does this relate to the smarmy ooh ooh, luvvie performances on waddya which suck up to jess, presumably in the hope of another article (the last one was ages ago), just like that increasingly embarassing idiot MartynInEurope does? What does disussing Belgian chocolates with bru and the morons bring to the table?

    Could it just be egotism and a very ordinary pedestrian 'hey, look at me me me!' mentality? Or is it perhaps some esoteric expression of Buddhism? Damned if I know, but it's painful to watch. Sometimes even peterbracken has a point.

    PS. I love France too! I really miss it . The people are more beautiful and more intelligent and the food is really scrumptious and the politics are, like, really cool and the music is fab and one time I went to a gig in Geneva and

  114. http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-thats-right-it-was-all-a-muslim-plot-2085575.html

    There's nowt much to add really. There is very little activity these days that doesn't involve a confrontation with insanity.

    It's no bloody wonder we are in the mess we are when pillocks like Lilico are churning out propaganda masquerading as informed comment.

    At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, it wouldn't seem wide of the mark to suggest that the fall of the Berlin Wall was the trigger for the Neo-liberal plan to be rolled out.(they deliberately set out to be rumbled so that they could stick two fingers up?)

    In other words: "The Left has failed you. Tough shit, this is the only game in town.... now bend over!

    Sorry if that metaphor was a bit too graphic but it pretty much sums up the stitch up for many people at the "coalface".

  115. I wasn't being provocative Swifty, I really think that you saying that you cried like a little girl is sexist.

    I do hope this one has been put to bed.....

  116. that said, i've had a quick look at studies (east. mids lib.) and there is definitely a theoretical case....

  117. I don't post on CIF anymore as most of you know and also know the reason why but that doesn't mean I don't check up on what's going on there.

    At least Andrew Lilico is getting a deserved pasting for his sixth form analysis of wealth distribution.

  118. AAHHHHHhh this is what another wanker has posted:


    Excellent article - I agree with every word of it.

    Can I also just applaud Cif's moderation policy where comments referring to Mr Lilico's current employment and past history are deleted even though this information is in the public domain and easily accessible. This is not relevant to this article, and if it was, then obviously Cif would have given this information in Mr Lilico's author profile. Being a lobbyist and a member of a right-wing thinktank is not relevant! The guardian is definitely not being disgenuous!

    Obviously looking for a fight, and one which he possibly can not defend ! Wanker..

  119. aaaaaaaaahhh, going to see grinderman this week, my favourite nick cave song is.......................................you fill out blanks.....

  120. "What are we to make of beautifulburnout"

    The same as we are to make of "anon"

    "Could it just be egotism and a very ordinary pedestrian 'hey, look at me me me!' mentality?"

    Nothing more, I guess. Have fun, anon.

  121. Evening all


    Here's another beautiful tune for you from Joni Mitchell

  122. Hi Paul - enjoyed da musica .

    Been off line all day. Men with coils of wire shinning up and down poles across the village all day. Normal service now resumed.

    I seem to have missed an interesting day on Cif ! Just had a quick skim - the 'income is private' guy is my candidate for the bonfire on Nov 5.

  123. Hello Leni, if you are talking about Andrew Lilico it's difficult to know where to start!
    A sixth former could have come up with a better analysis than the propaganda he wrote and probably in much superior prose.

    The apologists for the the spivs and charlatans who got us all into this mess will have to do better than that!

    On the plus side: he got well and truly pasted on CIF, so there is hope!

  124. Hi chekhov

    yes Lilico.

    Facile with the added bonus of studied stupidity. The difficulty is that this kind of thinking is being used as a basis for policy making.

    roughly translated he appeared to be saying it is wrong to take a little bit from the rich just so they will have less - so let's take it from the poor instead.

    the usual excuses about the rich needing incentives to work harder - if we took most of their money of them they would have to work even harder over longer hours to try to maintain their living standards.

    Easy to say the man is a fool - he is far from that ; in seeking to defend his position he is relying on our stupidity to let him get away with it. They are getting away with it and will continue to do so.

  125. Leni/chekhov

    I don't know whether either of you saw last night's documentary about kids who are sent to an exclusive boarding school at 7 and usually go on to top public schools like Eton and Harrow.It was sad as you could see their childhood being steadily drained out of them as they were put on the path that would eventually make them our Lords and Masters.Methinks abolition of the public and prep school system should be on any truly left wing manifesto.Trouble is that so many state schools in Britian are crap that on one level i can sort of understand parents who want the best for their kids scrimping and saving if necessary to get them educated in the private sector.But something is clearly wrong in a society where the 8% of kids who are educated privately end up disproportionately running everything to the exclusion of the 92% who are educated in the state sector.

  126. Paul

    Education for all our children is something I am really passionate about.

    For as long as we have different levels offering different chances and outcomes we will not begin to approach a fair society.

    Private education ensures that the rich and the middle class parents who skimp and save for private education will not exert any pressure for the improvement of local authority schools - it is not in their interests to do so.

    Two tier (3 tier actually ) education creates attitudes which stick for life - the privileged reinforcing a sense of entitlement in their children with wc children accepting lower standards ans expectations for themselves.

  127. Leni

    Do you think a two tiered state sector consisting of grammar schools for the academic kids and technical high schools for kids with a more vocational bias could work.(it seems to work in other european countries like Germany)Or do you think we should stick with comprehensives but have streaming so some kids get a more academic based education whilst others a more vocational based one.My understanding about the old three tiered state system of grammars,technical highs and secondary modern schools was that the reason it didn't work was that there was never enough investment in the tech highs and secondary moderns which meant that relatively few tech high schools opened and many secondary moderns rapidly became sink schools

  128. Is that NOT was that.

    My typos and grammarical errors are getting worse by the day.

  129. Leni

    I have to sign off now ,

    Nite x

  130. Paul

    i think we need tech schools - the investment and inspirational teachers would have to be there of course. The grammar school idea - basically academic - should not isolate kids from more practical skills .

    I see no reason why kids could not attend at both - a very academically bright kid is just as likely to be interested in some of the more technical subjects and vice versa of course. A boy or girl with the skills, aptitudes and inclination to be an engineer is just as likely to love literature or be interested in history for example.

    Schools as constituted today encourage tribalism - uniform, upholding 'honour' of school etc - children need to be raised in a much more fluid system , not valuing one skill above another while aknowledging where their own particular interests lie.

    More muscic (including 'pop', jazz, soul etc) , art and drama too. Youngsters are leaving school with often very little understanding of the value of an inner life - also need to break artificial boundaries between 'high' and popular culture. the cultures which are developed bu each generation have their values - even if the older generation hate them ! We undervalue our children and young people.

    School and neighbourhood tribalism reinforce each other too.

  131. Should I get this through – it’s out of synch with the conversation because I’ve attempted quite a few times to get it posted – keep ending up with ‘blogger can’t perform your request’ – then have to start again to make sure it’s not actually appearing six times, as last time when it said that it did post it after all – very frustrating (my connection is working for anything else all right).

    I appreciate your welcome (and others).

    I did post with Cif for a while, but gave up on it last year, soon after what I call ‘the night of the long knives’ – when many of the comments (including some of my own) on what I think was the fourth article by James Purnell – all of a thoroughly obnoxious nature, whilst avoiding mentioning welfare reform (of which he had previously and publicly so much boasted) - were deleted/vanished.

    Each time many commentators came on to point out that he was partly responsible, with Freud, for policies that were going to destroy people’s lives; but the only comments he ever made btl were nothing to do with anything, and then Matt Seaton would keep stepping in with his usual snide remarks, telling people what they should be discussing – it was obvious they were as pals.

    That night was like when they start firing on the protesters – so many posts were deleted, and many simply disappeared; and then those protesting about it were disappeared… I fell asleep in the middle of it, and then wondered if it had all been a dream – suddenly there seemed to be rather less than before – who knows how many were vanished, and most of them weren’t against their comment policy at all.

    I copied some before they went – I still have them somewhere in the confusion of my files. I re-submitted my main one in the morning, and it stayed – I somehow suspected it would – different shift.

    This assault upon free speech by the Guard was happening at the same time as they were boasting about their fight for free speech in exposing Trafigura’s attempt to cover up their dumping of toxic waste in the Ivory Coast. I was thoroughly disgusted – at the Guard’s blatant hypocracy.

    Commentators kept telling them (amongst other subjects) that ‘nobody being left behind’ was a fiction, and the reality was that many would now be even less likely even to be able to start, and they chose instead to remove many of the comments pointing out (however politely) how wrong they were to believe what was being said by their Labour chums. That was wrong.

    I didn’t look at Cif again for a long time, and then just started glancing in on occasion to keep up with events (my family get the paper, but the real news comes from btl), and one day I saw a reference to this site – and found some familiar names… and eventually took the plunge.