17 August 2010


Dresden, 1906

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.


  1. Thank you, PeterJ, for the link to the site from which today's photo comes. They are, indeed, beautiful.

    My internet woes seem to be diurnal in nature. Shortly after my comment at 12:32 yesterday (which was 6:32 am for me), I lost my connection. Then it came back on just after 9 pm (my time). Oh well, they're supposed to be sending someone to my house today. I don't imagine I'll ever receive the credit to my account that they're supposed to give me for the down time. Haven't received any yet.

  2. I don't know whether MSNBC will let you watch it or not, but Keith Olbermann had a great special comment on the Islamic community centre that the right-wing numpties are pitching such a fit about.

  3. Hi all, I'm gonna be afk til Friday. Hope you are all well, catch youse soon. : )

  4. morning all!

    good luck with the fixin', Montana - and see you later Turminder.

  5. Lord Pearson of Rannoch stepping down as head of UKIP on the grounds that he doesn't really know what he's doing.

    Very honest of him. To be fair, having heard him speak several times during the election campaign, this is not a bombshell. Admitting you haven't read your own party's manifesto was a brilliant start, and things went downhill from there...

  6. PhilippaB

    Yes, appointing Lord Haw-Haw as your spokesmen always seemed like it would be doomed to failure.

    Whatever happened to Nigel "We seem to have had a bit of a prang" Farrah-Fawcett-Majorage and the rest of the Waitrose BNP?

  7. The prangster is getting ready to have an operation, but sounded keen. Sounded less keen when Somebody Campbell Bannerman (the other MEP) was mentioned...

    With a bit of luck, they'll fragment completely, which would be a mildly diverting (if utterly irrelevant) sideshow.

  8. @leni

    About the prices, there was a decent report on French TV the other day. Following the Russian fires, there's absolutely no shortage of wheat, but the traders have already doubled its price.

    Can I become a market guru and decide that all Cameron's property is actually worthless? The fact that these people's decisions or opinions outweigh mere reality is totally insane. If aliens are watching us, what the hell do they think about market economics? Have they called the beings in white coats to escort us to a padded planet?

  9. Hello Guys n Gals!

    OK, slightly less of an idiot today :-)

    (Hank - yes, not only bollocks, it was gobbledegook!)


    heard that - today - yep, I almost admire him for saying that - hopefully UKIP are finito!

    Oh, what I would give to hear Oikbourne saying the same, but no, he actually thinks he knows what he's doing. Twat.

    Just something hilarious, I've had a bidding war between T-mobile salesmen offering me lower and lower deals all because I'm out of contract and threatened to leave.... I might ask for a yacht

  10. LaRit - the problem with having a yacht is the possibility of running into Mandy at the marina.

    Go for a pony.

  11. Leni, from last night, and everyone else..

    "Funny day on waddya. So many told them exactly what we want to talk about - to be told we can't."

    Or look at it from the G's perspective. A group of ten or twelve people, part of an organised lobby group are trying to tell a national newspaper how to run things. I wanted to tell all of you months ago that the Guardian is not your personal plaything but I didn't want to offend you. You are doing an admirable job with this campaign certainly, but I think you are a bit deluded if you think the Guardian is answerable to your whims.

    By all ignore it and don't read it. In fact that would probably be better, would give you more time to campaign on real things.

    After reading yesterday's and today's Waddya, now I am glad I resigned from Cif. I mean come on, even Hank 'I don't post any longer' goes back (I presume) to have a go at Hermione and Jessica Reed herself. Is this maturity- no it is childishness. No one will take you campaign seriously, you are pissing around whinging that a national newspaper won't bow to your demands.

  12. Just a tip for anyone who values their online persona over at CiF - although nobody will actually be unaware of this.

    Never suggest in any way that JessicaReed is not, in fact, an international media brand in her own right or seek to imply that she is little more than a glorified secretary.

    She will have your posting rights withdrawn quicker than you can simply use another of your online personae.

    I like the fact that this campaign seems to have squeezed the usual brainless prattlers onto the sidelines, but nobody should run away with any ideas that CiF will actually do anything.

    Ms Reed will soon be missing her usual daily adoration and being the prize exhibit in the petting zoo which is WADDYA, so expect all this to be mercilessly scissored soon.

  13. FFS. Just overheard: I don't think the fat lady should sing on that yet, Jeremy. (Colleague on phone.)

  14. Thauma:

    Yeah, I think a nice little Arab Cross would be perfect! Worse than running into Mandy, I might run into Naomi and run the risk of having my brain bashed in with a Swvrovski-studded, million quid mobile phone ;0)


    nobody should run away with any ideas that CiF will actually do anything

    I know, they can't stand any ideas unless they come from the limited nepotistic gene pool of Middle Class self-congratualtion and adoration...

  15. 'Ray, Montana! Thanks for that...

    The wheat thing is interesting - mates down here work for trade journals, including on the food industry, so have picked up some tidbits - this a decent round-up...

  16. Or look at it from the G's perspective. A group of ten or twelve people, part of an organised lobby group are trying to tell a national newspaper how to run things.

    This blog hardly constitutes an organised lobby and all anyone is doing is using the WDYWTTA thread for its intended purpose. If they hadn't wanted to actually listen to what their readers wanted, they never should have created the thread.

    I doubt that anyone here thinks that the Graun is "answerable to [y]our whims", nor does anyone think that it will change the world, nor single-handedly end the vilification of poor and working class. But there's no point in not trying to make some noise.

  17. bizarre programme on R4 about the ostrich trading bubble. the interviews sound like that ISIHAC game where you have to replace a sensible word in a speech with a ridiculous one.

    "I was interested why they were buying their ostriches from Wall Street..."

  18. Thauma - Shudders at colleagues statement!

    On a lighter note all - Iceland are thinking of changing their pylons into huge metal giants striding over the landscape. Now depending on your point of view I expect you will either think these are truly beautiful or very creepy or freaky.

    As someone who always finds really huge pylons (especially those placed on more wild landscapes such as those on the Lancs moors) quite ,I don't like them but others may find them a great idea?


  19. Montana

    Agree completely.


    The problem with your argument is that it basically leads to saying that there is no point in doing anything, although you could say there is a small implied caveat that you could try as long as you thought there was a better than evens chance of winning.

    I use CiF purely for fun and to fill idle moments and as a distraction from nose-picking or ear-cleaning and consider it to be about as useful as either of those.

    If it also annoys or amuses or enrages people, that is an unintended consequence.

    I long ago lost any illusions that it is a vehicle for social change.

    It's a bunch of greater or lesser fuckwits gossiping and I am not so deluded to imagine that I am doing anything other than that, like the rest.

    That is all it ever was and all it ever will be

  20. Atomboy.
    I predict that WADDYA will be shut down permanently in a few weeks.

    I agree and wish the campaign well, although I won't be taking part because I am too busy with personal things, but it just seemed that some people had an expectation that the could actually influence a national newspaper. And while it is true that 'Waddya' is what it says on the tin, this is the first time a group with a specific agenda is using it as a vehicle rather than just individuals occassionally banding together (like the banning of LordS). Plus to say you are not an organised lobby is questionable when the rallying call for the ATL campaign is 'agitate, educate, organise'. You may not be like an corporate PR movement, but in the Graun's eyes you are an entryist group.

    For all the talk about the web opening a new equality, most editorial and journalistic policies of a British national newspaper are decided at a few restaurants in central London, amongst a few people, editors, politicians, establishment tpyes. The influence of the 'webs
    is just a shiny veneer, as Atomboy has consistently said.

  21. Jesus, one of my old mates, used to be a proper lefty, has just started posting Scientolgy videos on his site declaiming psychiatry.

    Now I have issues with psychiatry, especially how it is practiced in the US, and its links with big pharma, but entrusting mental health and well-being to a competing body - and a church at that - is like giving complete clinical and logisitcal control over the African Aids epidemic to the Vatican.

    My mate used to be so f@cking switched on - and very anti-religion. It's really quite depressing.

  22. BW - maybe his blog has been hacked by Thetans?

  23. Just had a quick look over at WADDYA and it all seems to be settling back into its normal pattern of the dazzling interplay between kizbot, damntheral, MartynInEurope and InvisibleDirigible.

    SpecialBrut will be back from his "hols" soon - or just rocking back and forth in his bedsit for a couple of weeks - and it will be as if nothing ever happened.

    I know this will sound like a criticism and I'm sorry for that.

    Maybe it's just me. Maybe I am too cynical and jaded and too inclined to think that, apart from the rich, the biggest obstacle is the cloying, sticky clasp with which the mindless hold each other together against the fear of having to think about the world or examine their own ideas.

    Actually, the main problem with CiF is that nothing lasts longer than the thread on which you are currently engaged.

    Once it is closed or something more appealing gets posted, everything is forgotten in the rush to show that you have something, anything or nothing to say about whatever it is which everyone is crowding and jostling over.

    Seaton could so easily promise that he would look into JayReilly's claims about moderation and censorship and then simply do nothing because he knew that we would all forget it and drop the bone in order to sniff other backsides or piddle over other trees.

    He could also arrange for the reinstatement of Summerisle as a sop to the masses because he knew that after a day or two the clamouring crowd would no longer care, but he could earn some kudos in the meantime.

    Is Summerisle even there any more? Hello?

    The ones which use CiF for their own preening above or below the line are probably right.

    Like Sharwoods spices and sauces, it is the safe, bland pretend-exotic for those who never really liked foreign muck anyway.

  24. Hello everybody


    I was very doubtful about wheat price hike as I understand most of the fires are on forested land with many burning below ground in poeat layers.

    Not wheat growing country. I had read other reports suggesting crop failure due to heat and lack of rain.

    Which ever is true the traders are not going to let the chance of a quick profit pass them by.


    We are not a lobby group. There was lots of support from non Utters.

  25. 'Utters'..... A gaggle of utters. Anyway, it is a sunny day. Time to go and placate the kind staff at the job centre

  26. thaumaturge
    Nope, he's changed dramtically since he became a dad last year - at about the age of 60 !

    He's lost all his dark, sneering and combattive edge, and effectively, started hanging out with lazy-ass unthinking 'spiritual' people...
    because he's stopped fighting I guess... he is smitten with his baby daughter, and I reckon he feels he's just gone to a higher plane or some bollocks.

    Most f@cking upsetting.

  27. Sorry to hear that, BW. It's distressing when a good 'un goes over to the dark side.

  28. Hi folks! using daughter's laptop - am about to buy one so getting practice in.

    Will try to catch up when I have time!

  29. Most f@cking upsetting.

    Isn't it depressing? One of the reasons I gave up my facebook account was because all of the people I went to school with seem to have become born-again fucktards.

  30. Montana, the people I went to school with were just born fucktards.

  31. "One of the reasons I gave up my facebook account"

    Yep. Another of his pals - from some wanky Californian sect - started giving a load of gibberish on there the other week...I had a wail of a time baiting those prats til they banned me ;-) Sanctimonious brain-dead fools.

  32. A friend of mine has been bitten by scientology

    His wife is very confused by the new him. He has become very odd. He is no longer accessible by reason.

    He explained "touch assist" to me. Can't remember all the details but goes along the lines of

    Warning the injured person they are about to be "assisted" .

    Various Mesmer types movements over injury. Healing not immediate , repetition required.

    The interesting thing is the duration of the necessary magic lasts in each case for normal healing time ! A minor burn from hot cooker may take a few days while a broken leg might need 6 weeks - you wave about above the plaster.

    It is useful for you all to remember that in the case of electrocution turning off the electricity is advised before "assisting" the frazzled.

    a once intelligent man has become a programmed robot.

  33. afternoon all

    Another excellent rant from Joe Bageant Understanding America's class system

    Back to the hospital for me - a colonoscopy (ugh!) and a CTC scan. According to the Prof this lot would cost £2000 if I had to pay for it. Thank christ for the NHS - if the bastards do fuck it up I swear I will commit bloody murder...

  34. Cure for the very drunk - courtesy of scientology.

    You sit next to them and point at random objects saying "look at that ". You do not name the object ; while the poor confused friend is glubbing "look at what?? " you point to something else and firmly say "Look at that " - redirecting attention around the room. Guaranteed to work apparently .

    Try it and let me know.

  35. Bear up our Sheff - hope all goes well.

    Long live the NHS

  36. Leni/BW

    Scientology is a vile cult designed to extract as much dosh as possible from it's unfortunate, brainwashed adherents, allegedly. ( I say allegedly as they're also very litigious)

  37. Does that explain CiF?

    It has been a cult for a long time, but perhaps it is just a Scientology enclave.

    Anyway, I have followed Mishari al Adwani's advice and moved to The Independent for a test post, although, having had a little flurry of posting here and elsewhere over the last few days, the general thrust seems to be that I shall succumb to my former standpoint of weaning myself off the internet.

    It seems to be a vast electronic wall against which we are all banging our heads.

    As the old joke says, it's nice when you stop.

  38. Sheff

    Sorry to hear that. Good luck and best wishes.

    Atomboy's cure for the very drunk:

    Offer them another drink.

    If pushed, hug them and slobber:

    You're my best mate, you are. I fucking love you.

  39. Leni

    I've done what a lot of women do when somewhat disturbed...bought myself a frock - and a French one too boot!

  40. Sheff

    sometimes the wretchedness of part of our lives can be balanced - when faced with things i really don't want to face up to I buy plants and seeds.

    We do need a reward for putting up with so much shit.

    Take care xx

  41. Leni - I love Moloko's clothes - slightly off the wall - grungy punk with a hint of new romantic - mostly black and tones of grey.

    Oh god - Hank will probably attack me for being frivolous...but sometimes it's necessary.

  42. They are toxically litigious. My mate wouldn't ever sign up for them - thank god. but he is prone to shifting into exctasy/rave/west coast bullshit mode. Thinks alcohol's evil, etc... speaking of which...

    I'll probably try that cure on myself first - walking down the middle of the street at 1.30 am should be good.

    Look at that ! Look at that !!! fugging hell !!!

  43. Afternoon all,

    Leni (/Ratboy)

    Do you have any useful links/information/sources regarding ATOS' practices and whatnot?

    Seeing as the Guardian don't seem too willing to investigate, I might have a crack at it...

  44. Sometimes reading the UT is like one of those nights when chunks of it are missing ;) I keep missing things.....

    Leni is Ratboy? must've missed that one ;0)hello again Ratboy Leni! btw my moniker on A.T.L. is Le Mulot (also rat influenced!)

    Re: CiF I'm generally very bored with it, unless there's a reasonably good thread I can get my teeth into but it's vacuous nonsense of right wing bollocks designed, imho to deliberately inflame and make the nutjobs think they're 'winning' or something.

    I've had it with the bloody Champix experiement - I want badly to give up smoking again and thought it would be worth a try, well, here I am, 2.5 weeks of tablet-chomping later and although the 'desire' to smoke has subsided - I'm still effing smoking and I've been feeling really,really unwell the whole time. What a bloody waste of time.


    Sorry to hear about your friend and Scientology - I think some people are just more susceptible. I had a mate (a singer) who succumbed to Landmark - they're even worse than scientologists.... once he'd had his 'brainwashing' completed (and been relieved of a consderable amount of money, he bloody phoned me at 5 in the morning and started apologising to me and asking for forgiveness for "all the 'terrible things he'd done" - the poor bloke had never been anything but a good friend and a kind fella. It was insanity.


    Not another Colposcopy so soon? Sorry to hear that ;( make sure you also buy some nice shoes to wear to go with the threads!!

  45. Haha - no, sorry, I should have made that clearer.

    Leni, or ratboy, do you have....

  46. 3. Fees paid to doctors who provide medical services
    The BMA was not consulted in advance of Atos Healthcare issuing their fee rates in either September 2005, or September 2006. The Association has however been in communication with Atos Healthcare to highlight the need to ensure that fees for non-NHS work are linked with GPs’ actual remuneration and that fees are comparable with market rates. Doctors undertaking work for Atos Healthcare almost invariably come from an NHS general practice background and the serious deterioration in comparative remuneration means that recruitment and retention of doctors is likely to become increasingly difficult. The BMA firmly believes that if the issue of remuneration is not addressed then there is likely to be a further deterioration in morale amongst doctors undertaking this work and further reductions in the availability of the medical workforce. An increasing amount of medical services work is now being undertaken by doctors from overseas and the BMA believes that they are entitled to reasonable remuneration for this important work.

    Vexatious complaints
    The nature of medical services work attracts a high level of complaints, when compared with other medical work. There has been a perception among doctors of a lack of support during the complaints procedure and this has led to a number of doctors withdrawing their services, noting that a 'complaints culture’ has developed.

    Doctors providing medical services to the DWP are frequently subject to what may be considered 'vexatious’ complaints, following consultations where the doctor has provided a professional opinion which has financial implications for the patient. As a result, doctors may feel vulnerable and be increasingly reluctant to undertake this essential area of work. The BMA has raised this issue of financially-orientated 'vexatious’ complaints with the General Medical Council (GMC), who has taken on board our comments. The changes in the GMC's complaints procedure, such that the majority of complaints are now handled at a local level and doctors are no longer removed from the GMC website whilst under investigation, have somewhat eased the concerns of medical services doctors. The BMA has during previous discussion with Atos Healthcare highlighted the potential for vexatious complaints. Atos Healthcare has sought to assure the Association that this area is being closely monitored.



    The above from BMA site ! What more can I say ?
    Apparently our caring medics are interested only in their own fees and legal protection against patients they do down.

    I amm still searching for full funding info.

  47. James Dixon -- couple of pdf's from ratboy at ATL, google mikebach the guy fit to work with a brain tumour, and sadly weakening now, plus a good half dozen long Cif threads this year.

  48. "You can't claim DLA for help with grocery shopping. But you may be able
    to claim for window shopping."

    The reason you can't claim for shopping for necessities dates back to a
    1981 decision by the late Lord Denning, who was the senior civil judge in
    the UK at the time. He decided that the activities for which you could claim
    benefits "do not include cooking, shopping or any of the other things which
    a wife or daughter does as part of her domestic duties".

    And yes, we did say that decision was made in 1981, not 1881.

    And claiming DLA for window shopping?

    Well that relates to another case known as Mallinson. The judges in this
    case held that DLA was intended to allow people to live as normal a life as
    possible and that social and leisure activities were part of a normal life.
    Therefore help you need with these activities can be included in a DLA

    For example, you may suffer from depression and anxiety. You really
    enjoy walking round the shops, just getting out of the house, looking in the
    windows and watching passers by. If you can't get out for a few days you
    start to get 'stir crazy' and your depression and panic attacks can get much
    worse. But you can't go out alone because you just get far too anxious to
    even make it out of your front door.

  49. Just found this site, which looks quite interesting:


    and this...


  50. And...relax!

    CiF has now settled back into its comfortable routine and WADDYA has reverted to a sequence of brief inanities from the usual suspects, with a lone Wybourne the only voice of reason in a puddle of flapping and gasping tadpoles.

    Now totally agree with Scherfig and Bitterweed and Mishari al Adwani and Monkeyfish that it is simply no longer worth the effort.

    Still, JessicaReed can now preen and offer treats from the goody-bag for the credulous and incapable and the prize fuckwits can cuddle and stroke each other into giggling, dribbling imbecility.

    Watch the future of the internet unfold before your eyes.

  51. Sorry - posted too soon.

    the above from newsletter I have just signed upto.

    you will see the discrepencies in the "evaluation " here. Obviously I am not against disabled people having leisure activities !

    It is the first part that assumes certain basics are done by family members - this has serious implications for carers.

    The more I look at all this the crazier the whole thing becomes.

  52. evening all.

    work sucks.

    thank you.

  53. Apart from the Duke at 4.22PM, and PaulBJ with a tricky one at 4.30, waddya has degenerated to driveldom. Again.

    I wondered what the hell Charles was meaning by 'entryism' so had to double-check . Wiki example- As reported in the book Believe What You Like, from 1969 large numbers of Scientologists joined the National Association for Mental Health (now Mind) and attempted to ratify as official policy a number of points concerning the treatment of psychiatric patients. When their identity was realised they were expelled from the organisation en masse

    That fits with the conversation on Scientology above too. I found a very interesting article on it by some weirdos called National-Anarchists ,worth a look.

    Nothing like UT !

  54. "cabin pressure" does lamp a lot of shitty sales-type language...

    when did 'yourself' replace 'you' in english? i blame the lack of proper eddication as to grammer and that.

  55. Campaign to protect Disability Benefits | Jan Cole – Asperger East Anglia »
    I am happy to support your campaign as there is no doubt that the new government is looking to make major savings in the welfare budget. The projected savings from reassessing people on DLA is £1 billion.

    Anne Begg
    Chair of the Works and Pensions Select Committee

    DLA is the next to be targetted. This will also impact on their carers. Anne Begg may be someone to contact.

  56. Aye Leni.

    Her e-mail is:


    if anyone's interested!!

  57. Just out of interest, how did ATOS, which as far as I can tell, is one of those bullshit IT/management consultant companies, get a fucking healthcare/social provision gig in the first place....????

    *looking for any obvious revolving door activity*

  58. Some news from NHS Wales - we might like to ask why in the present ecconomic climate the management have decided to put nursesinto 'blues' (aka 'scrubs'). Presently in navy trousers and white tops with 'epis' on shoulder to indicate status. Uniform can therefore still be used when a nurse is promoted they are just issued with new epis. With these uniforms the status is embroidered on the uniform thus increasing the running cost of the uniform. Heaven knows how much its going to cost to issue every nurse in Wales with these things. my daughter says they are awful it'll be like working in pyjamas!

  59. Anne

    Quick question:

    I know the nominations and whatnot for the Labour leadership are closed and final, but do you know, off the top of your head, if there's anyway of a rejection of the existing candidates/vote of no confidence/no result etc being achieved, or is it definitely going to be one of those chumps come the end of September??

  60. The Chair of the works and pensions committee is "begga" ? That figures.

  61. The waddya regulars are now licking each other .

    I'm not giving up quite yet but am heading for the door.

  62. james - good point. accounts prob not available for free, but am sure can 'borrow' a login for a paid site, will have a dig...

  63. @James

    The ATOS deal was part of a long-term consultancy stitch-up in the NHS. It was originally in various parts; medical assessments were being done by Schlumberger-SEMA, while KPMG Consulting was doing NHS IT contracts. ATOS bought both those companies, and pulled the whole thing together when the DWP took over the medical assessment business from the Benefits Agency.

    There's been a lot of dodgy revolving-door business between KPMG, SEMA, ATOS and the Department of Health over the years. I'll try to find out who's still on the books.

  64. having been away from waddya for a while, am just rolling through and...

    "Jonathan Ross's dog is in charge?"


    right, back to the serious points (cough)

  65. LifeisElswhere on WADYYA made reference to SteveHill's profile. I clicked on it and neither his profile is available nor his comments. Has he been banned?

    Anyone seen the Graun's front headline. The majority of people are behind the cuts.

    There's a spare room going at mine's if anyone wants to migrate here...

  66. Cheers Philippa and PeterJ.

    It certainly doesn't look like a natural, sensible, or logical case of outsourcing to me.

  67. James;

    Just out of interest, how did ATOS, which as far as I can tell, is one of those bullshit IT/management consultant companies, get a fucking healthcare/social provision gig in the first place....????

    I wonder if they are part of that amorphous mass of damaging and greedy companies awarded Govt.contracts in the last 15 years (such as the truly horrendous ITNet) turned into?

  68. outsourcing is rarely sensible or logical, james - it may be 'cheaper', but that relies (as we may well see with the audit commission) on

    1) taking only P&L entries into account
    2) not considering any knock-on effects
    3) taking the tender as gospel when that is never a contractual limitation
    4) any consideration of not immediately obvious financial issues, eg experience

    so, if you're a commercial software provider, that might work. if you're related to healthcare or any other government function, you might wonder.

    if you're a human being, that is. if you're just tring to 'cut the deficit' then fuck all that. 'wondering' is a hippy libby commie thingy that we don't need in the brave new world.

    i was born in a jar.

  69. nap / charles - like the huxley? really, pet, we need you...

  70. "Osborne sought today to convince voters that the coalition had no alternative but to take action to bring down borrowing, which he said was both fair and progressive. "We are all in this together", he said, repeating a key government message since the election".

    Wotever, fuckface!!


    The chancellor insisted, however, that there would be no backsliding from the coalition. "Britain now has a credible plan to deal with our record deficit. We must stick by it.

    To budge from that plan now would risk reigniting the markets' suspicions that Britain does not have the will to pay her way in the world. I will not take that risk".

    And to stick with it proves our suspicions that you're going to fuck all about all your millionaire buddies who won't ever pay their way in the world....


  71. I notice that ITNet's former CEO Bridget Blow, after a scandlous disaster trying to run the privatised HB services in Hackney in 2001, leaving scores of people homeless or desperately behind in their rent along with waiting lists for HB payments which ran to some 25,000+ people, was elected as 'Chair' to Birmingham's Cahmber of Commerce.

    It's not just the bankers who carry on regardless after leaving a trail of destruction behind them - it's the same shit running through every strata of every so-called 'industry' in this country. How do they continue to do it I wonder? I worry about my CV and yet these hopelessly incompetent people, who actually destroy people's lives and waste millions in Public money are free to carry on climbing the greasy pole.

  72. La Rit,

    That's the thing with exclusive clubs though, isn't it.

    Now matter how much a member might fuck up, no matter how incompetent they actually are, if you chuck them out, you have to allow someone else to join, innit!

    And that's just not on!

    Plus there's the fact that their 'fuck-up' was probably only considered so outside of their membership, and thusly not a factor.

    In fact, it's probably fair to say that these fuck ups usually end up making certain of the club's membership considerably richer....

  73. frog - am just watching the C4 vid you linked to - colour coding? were letters too difficult? really...


  74. @Duke: any work for carpenters over there?

    I might take you up on that offer!

  75. Hi phil -- one minute in " the trainer " quote?

  76. Evening all

    Asked a question earlier on waddya about the link between first cousin marriages and genetic disorders - especially in this country's Pakistani community where 55% of marriages are between first cousins.And where 33% of all children in this country with genetic disorders are of Pakistani parentage despite only 3% of all births being to Pakistani parents.

    No response from the glacial Ms Reed who was nevertheless happy to respond to others who were engaging in a debate about 'licking'.Perhaps i would have got her attention if i'd pre-empted my serious point with a question about 'rimming'.Anyway we live and learn.

    If anyone is interested Dispatches on C4 will be doing a programme about the link between first cousin marriages and genetic disorders on 23 August.ie next monday.

  77. Hi Paul

    the scientific findings on tis suggest that the risk of first cousin marriages producing damaged children is no greater than for babies born to parents over the age of 40.

    There has to be several generations of first cousin marriages - marrying back into small pool of people, before it creates problems.

  78. What the fuck am i talking about?Didn,t ask MsReed a question about the link between first cousin marriages and genetic disorders i asked for an article on the subject.Duh!!!

  79. Paul

    Specify genetic disorder - I suffer from coeliac , one son from type 1 diabetes - both run in families.

    Both my mother and G'mother were coeliac - both married guys from hundreds of miles away - not related at all.

    Have to be very careful with this one - could lead to more rejection of migrant communities.

    In NY a rabbi runs a scheme for genetic testing of couples wanting to marry. Certain genetic disorders reasonably prevalent in Jewish communities.

  80. Atomboy.
    "Watch the future of the internet unfold before your eyes."

    Yep, remember that young lady who wrote for cif back in march about how she would never vote and was typical of here generation- yes we don't vote but we have facebook apps or we join twitter campagins- it is this apathy that got the Tory vermin back. And of course many don't care, happy to lead a mindless digital existence free of responsibility and conscience. Welcome to dystopia.


    Entryism is what split up the left in Britain, at least I assume, obviously not being active in British politics in the 60s to 80s, or even born for that matter.

    You all make good comments, and I am sorry if I sounded blunt this morning. The campaign really is worthwhile.

    I'm a bit tired and emotional, I mean literally not metaphorically (google it all you non Brits) so I will not be posting more tonight.

    And tomorrow I will be busy. I will leave you with a parting riposte. The reason I got disillusioned with the Islington ehco is because it caters to a vdery speciifc aspirfational set, and beneath it they are almost as elitist as the Daily Telegraph. FOr example, something about working flexible hours, alright for the high powered proffesional, not good for us lower downs. I may well be doing volunteering in up to 3 separate organisations, I am currently doing 2 and that is on top of my OU studying. With the jobs I am applying for, I haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of getting flexi time.

  81. Ps, I think he Daily Mail managed to contradict itslef (better to know your enemy.) Last week they were trumpeting the gov's right to end council tenancies, ie if there was an old granny living alone in a three bed house.

    Today, they have a story of an old man alone in a three bed council house who has been asked to be evicted by the council because he was taking up too much space. 'Outrage'.

    Epic fail.

  82. Hi Leni

    ''Have to be very careful with this one - could lead to more rejection of migrant communities.''

    From what i gather it's only a problem in the ethnic Pakistani community-where 60% of arranged marriages are between British Pakistanis and spouses from Pakistan itself.And where a realtively high % of these arranged marriages are between first cousins.Women of Pakistani ethnic origin account for just 3% of all births in this country but 33% of all children born in Britain with genetic disorders are of Pakistani ethnic origin.There's clearly a problem here which needs to be addressed.

    You may or may not be aware but the former Labour MP Ann Cryer did a lot of work trying to raise awareness of this problem .And as i said earlier C4,s Dispatches next monday will also be looking at it.IMO it's not something that can be brushed under the carpet indefinitely or dismissed behind the smokescreen of 'cultural relativism'.I,ve known about this problem for ages and the sooner it's openly addressed the better. Otherwise it just provides yet more ammunition for the BNP/EDL.

  83. I'm sure people already know this, but, being a wee bit slow, I've just had to look it up on the Labour website.

    Apparently, in the upcoming festivities:

    "The vote, provided there are more than two candidates, will be a transferable eliminating ballot. Voters will mark the candidates 1,2, 3 etc. Each round will be published as 100%, with votes not cast or transferred being eliminated from the calculations".

    Which, unless I've misunderstood anything, means that it will be one of those chumps come the end of September, even if like 2 people vote.

    So, given that only the PLP has the power to nominate candidates (which they did a real good job with), and given that everyone else can only offer 'supporting' nominations and then vote for those presented to them (without any power of rejection), you have to ask, what's the fucking point....???

  84. Evening all

    Drive-by posting. Off to France tomorrow - no internet, no land line, mobile only works at the bottom of the garden... bliss!

    Back on the 5th - take care all xx

    BB x

    Oh, and it looks like Stevehill's profile has gone. I rarely had anything to say in agreement with him, but it annoys me when they zap old posters like that.

  85. Just got back from a week at my sisters, I didn't log on to the internet once, so can someone give me a quick rundown of what's been happening?

    Any good fueds going on, or anything interesting on Cif?

    I am going to spend the next few days getting drunk and smoking until I am sick (damn children and their delicate lungs ;) ), if I see one more episode of Spongebob I think I will go over the edge.

  86. Oh, and re bith defects in the Pakistani population, I was reading Superfreakonomics today and it could also be attributed to pregnant women fasting during Ramadan when they really shouldn't - given that many women don't know they are pregnant for a month or two, and the first formative weeks are vital in terms of proper nutrition for foetuses, it means that there is more chance of a baby being born with a deformity.

    And given that the largest Muslim population we have in the UK comes from Pakistan, this could also be the problem.

    Anyhoo, really off now. Still haven't packed. At least I can just chuck it all in the car, though.

    Ciao for now xx

  87. Have fun BB!!

    Welcome back Jen!!

  88. Hey, Jen, welcome back!

    BB - enjoy your hols.

    Paul/Leni - have to agree with Leni on this; as far as I know the genetic problems occur with multiple inbreedings (cf Queen Vic and other aristocrats).

  89. Paul

    Cousin marriages carry a higher risk for autosomal recessive inheritance in their infants regardless of ethnicity. This has been known for some time. See for example, Stoltenberg C, Magnus P et al. Influence of consanguinity and maternal education on risk of still birth and infant death in Norway 1967-1993. Am J Epid 1998;148 (5)452-458BB

    Pregnant Muslim women are not expected to fast during Ramadan - they are exempt.

  90. "Paul/Leni - have to agree with Leni on this; as far as I know the genetic problems occur with multiple inbreedings (cf Queen Vic and other aristocrats)".

    Or Cameron, Osborne and Gove, for example....

  91. Hi MsChin

    '' Cousin marriages carry a higher risk for autosomal recessive inheritance in their infants regardless of ethnicity.''

    Agreed.The point i was making was the disprortionately high % of first cousin marriages in the Pakistani community and the possible link between that and the disproportionately high % of children of Pakistani parentage who are born with genetic disorders.It is something that a growing number of British people of Pakistani ethnic origin want addressed as well as it.s often linked with arranged marriages between Britsh pakistanis and spouses from who are first cousins from Pakistan itself.

  92. Hi James

    But maybe what is happening in Britains Pakistani communities is the result of several generations of first cousin marriages.Should be an interesting programme next week.

    @Hi Jen

  93. Evening all
    haven't been around much cos haven't been great...but I had a hospital visit today and all's well........so that's a relief....mind you had to pay.....but that's another story....
    here are a couple (1 and 2) of interesting articles from the New Left Project on organising against cuts and activism........they bring up interesting points that I thought were quite pertinent such as the fact that the cuts are right across the social spectrum and that in itself means it will be difficult to identify them as a "single" cause as such---to galvanise support into something coherant that doesn't just get behind one "cause" is not going to be so easy...........

    bon voyage.......!

  94. Hi Paul.

    I'm rubbish with sciencey stuff, so am not really in a position to comment properly, so I just took the opportunity to have a cheap pop at the Tory cock-knockers instead....

  95. MsChin - yes, obviously ... but a recessive trait is not *necessarily* a bad thing. It may result in blue eyes, for example. Or a concentration of a positive trait. (Not to infer that blue eyes are negative!)

    Equally it may play up a negative trait which is why excessive inbreeding in any animal is to be avoided: see Kennel Club scandals.

    As James points out, the aristocracy is probably far more inbred than the Pakistani community.

  96. Hi James

    Fair point.Good to see you back .

  97. Gandolfo - hope you are on the mend. xo

    And best wishes to Sheff too.

  98. Hey Gandolfo

    Hope everything's OK.

    (Let me know if you want me to speak to my associates over there, and make that hospital bill 'go away'!!)


  99. bollocks, my post disappears before I've posted it

  100. Jen -- welcome back too ! I was going to ask were you were but someone else asked and we were all told. Was it the sister doing Occupational Therapy, cos there was a story there ...?

    There was an outbreak of sanity on waddya, great comments and suggestions for articles on disability/ATOS/A4e from UT and many others,such as mikebach, but sharp decline to normal nullity now. Turm is setting up a google group, top right of page, but off for a few days now.

  101. Paul

    "From what i gather it's only a problem in the ethnic Pakistani community"

    well that's debatable--- as regards ethnicity and hereditary diseases there is also sickle cell aneamia and thalossemia which is actually predominant in afro-caribbean community and afro-asian community, thalosseamia is also more common in the southern mediterranean community as well as Southeast Asian, Indian, Chinese, or Filipino origin or ancestry.

  102. James

    bloody hell should have given you a call.....do your *friends* know anyone at RomaC ASL thereìs someone that needs to go, metaphorically spking, to the "cleaners"!;)


    indeed I am...gulps down some wine....!!!!!

  103. Leni / Paul / James

    Recent studies in the West Midlands and East London evidence higher rates of pre-term births and infant mortality in Afro-Caribbean and African communities. But these early births & deaths are also associated with maternal / familial disadvantage, so it's not as clear cut as it seems.


    Re: outbreak of sanity on Waddya - you sure we didn't dream it after all?

  104. Hi gandolfo

    Glad things are OK healthwise.

    Re the other matter i was referring to Leni's point about not causing problems for minority communities.And the point i was making was that as far as i know the only minority community where there was a problematic link between first cousin marriages and genetic disorders is the Pakistani community.

  105. Wine cures all, Gandolfo, or so I have found. Raising a glass to your good health.

  106. MsChin

    But the point i,m making is that according to what i,ve read 33% of children born with genetic disorders in this country are of Pakistani ethnic origin.Although only 3% of all births in Britain are to mothers of Pakistani ethnic origin.So relative to population size there would appear to be a problem in this country's Pakistani community which some are attributing to the high rate of first cousin marriages.I,m not saying it,s solely a Pakistani problem but rather a relative one.

  107. paul

    ok, I think the problem with concentrating on this is that in fact it was Phil "toss head" Woolas that said
    “If you have a child with your cousin the likelihood is there’ll be a genetic problem.” this was of course not true the risk of birth defects is actually the same as for a woman over 40 giving birth, 2% higher than the norm not really substantial enough to ban these kinds of marriages IMO and something that could be adressed by genetic counselling....

  108. thauma

    hic....and the same to you!!

  109. Gandolfo

    My 'friends' know everyone!

    Just say the word, and your 'someone' will be at the nearest 'dry cleaners' quicker than you can say 'Corleone'!

  110. James

    I'll mail a list......it will be long.....times are hard so decisions have to be made....but it's called direct action in this quartiere.......

    if your "amici" want to know who I am remember to tell them I've gone out to buy cigarettes........and I may be some time!!!!

  111. Paul
    BTW thanks for the best wishes

    out of interest where do these figures of 33% come from I've seen them quoted but haven't seen the source........

  112. Jen A large number of people were also giving Guardian Towers management a hard time last week. Giyus is now missing that !--

    LifeInTheSpamLane 17 Aug 2010, 9:38PM

    'Interesting to see the ''LIBERAL'' media getting a Harder Time here?'

    posed the cynic

    'and even more interesting to see an immediate heavy turnout of SPAM discussing the usual rubbish

    coincidence of course.....'


    Yes Ms Chin, it does seem like a dream !
    OTP now ( out to pub !) XX All.

  113. Ha I've just had a read of Peter Bs latest and would like to put in a late vote for unexceptionals 'reads like the diary of a frustrated 19th century vicars wife' for top comment. ;)

  114. gandolfo - good links there to new left project . Seems we have quite a disproportionate lot of inside-experts on health services here, hoping you're OK .

    Very relieved to be here rather than just about anywhere else, for the frog NHS.Satisfied 'customer' !

  115. Jen -- you must go to Jay Reilly on the bracken biking article. looking for link ...

  116. frog

    I see lots of comments praising Jays but it seems to have been modded, no sense of humour some people.

  117. Hi frog2 thanks all fine now.....

    well the Italian nhs is okish in rome and the north.....but incredibly bureaucratic and you also have to pay for extras like blood tests, xrays etc and outpatient appointments, and hospitals are in a dismal state, a couple of friends of mine had to wait over 2 months for real emergency appointments... being smart I got unwell in august and got an appointment in 10days!!! in the south the NHS is virtually non existent personally wouldn't risk going into hospital in Puglia, sicily or calabria.....frog do your hospitals in france!!!

  118. Jay reilly 12/8 3.33PM

    Fuck my boots, Jay has finally been re-disappeared !

    But have no fear, f2 is here--

    I nominate this for witty post of the year, I even saved it in case of modding, as it has now disappeared ! (It then was re-instated, and now re-disappeared !)

    12 Aug 2010, 3:33PM

    "A few ritual checks – more akin to tender caresses – and then that moment of silence, like the expectant stillness at the starting pistol, before an electronic whirl fires the beast into life. Today, I am travelling on another epic, verbose ego trip in which my caddish charms will be displayed for all to see.

    For I am not merely a gifted rhetorician in the body of a finely chiselled hunk of masculinity, I am also a rather wealthy FX trader. Its likely my watch costs more than your house. I dont know if i told you, but I live in France now. I am a public intellectual too daring for most people to understand, a maverick. I'll waste no time with Islamofascists and their apologists, and I'll spare no feelings either. I am a sort of suave cross between Tony Blair, JS Mill and Jack Bauer.

    I am a mixture of brilliance that exhausts as much as it exhilarates. That sounds dramatic, I know, but that's because it is. On a bike, we are the drama. On a blog, I am the blog.

    I twist the throttle and the giddying surge of power sheds the bike of its slow-speed weight, firms the balance and allows me to pitch and roll her around a snaking convoy of traffic with the poise and ease of a ballerina. I once caught my reflection in the side mirror as i was hurtling along in Tuscany - I was so stunned by the beauty of what I saw that I nearly crashed.

    I'm now seated in the gently curving window of a cafe in Tours. Though passers by may not say it, I can see their thoughts - that is one seriously great guy sitting there.

    Yes, yes I am. I am Peter Bracken."

  119. gandolfo

    I haven,t seen the source either but i also haven't seen anyone challenge the figure .This BBC article is just one of a number i've read.Also if you want i can provide you with links from Baroness Deech who's a leading Family lawyer and crossbench peer,from Ann Cryer the former Labour MP for Keighley,from the London Muslim website etc etc.After next monday's Dispatches programme i intend to call C4 and see if they can tell me of the source if i can,t track it down beforehand.

  120. Thanks frog it was worth waiting for, I would say they should give Peter Bracken a weekly spot, for the comedy value, if I didn't think it would get old very quickly.

  121. Paul:

    I lived in Somerset for many a year, the offensive 'joke' was that everyone was an 'inbred'. There were some very close families (some a little too close) but it was mainly a tool for belittling and de-legitimising a whole group of people who had lived in the same area for centuries.... see where I'm going with this?

    The focus on Pakistani 'communities' and inbreeding is maybe a titchy problem now blown out of all kinds of proportion by a media determined to focus all our distaste on an indefinable group of misfit 'Muslims'.

    If you want to examine the problems of neanderthal in-breeding, look no further than our very own rulers... the Royal Family.... even the (a-hem)Royal illegitimates such as those Cameron are basically educationally sub-normal.

  122. Paul

    infact I've seen these figures banded about all over the place with no source....the fact that no one has challenged them is worrying as then it actually becomes the "norm" and they get repeated all over no source is sloppy. Here's a more recent BBC link

  123. @Paul and gandolfo

    There's a good discussion about the genetics of cousin marriage here. It's from the US, but refers specifically to the UK Pakistani population; the 33 percent figure comes from a 1998 study (reference 24 at that link).

  124. @gandolfo and peterj

    Thanks for the links and especially-peterj-the one with the source of the 33% figure.Will read it tomorrow.Strikes me as potentially being one of those 'double bind' issues where you can be damned for raising the more sensitive aspects of this problem and equally damned if you don't.Should be an interesting Dispatches programme on C4 next week.

    Nite all.

  125. James:

    Re: ITNet and all their bastard bretheren - they are everywhere - the bigger the fuck up, the better they get on. WRT ITNet - I know, because I, along with many other people in Hackney on HB at the time, was one of their casualties - although I wasn't reduced to prostitution as some people were (I jest not) to keep a roof over theirs and their kids heads. Funny how Hackney Council were so in thrall to ITNet, they evicted countless people from their Council Housing because the private company they'd employed weren't doing their fucking multi-million pound job properly and were literally writing out claims for HB and then using agency staff to take details and then chuck them in the bin.

    What astounds me is that they were given multi-million pound (public) contracts in Islington, Hounslow, Southwark and on and on and on and eventually held Birmingham City Council to ransom in the end. The company did the same thing every time. For a big, fat fee, they took the piss, laid off contracted staff who'd been there for years, employed agency automatons who treated people like shit and still walked away. I wonder, was this the Blair Govts. accelerated privatisation of everything public, including the forced disenfranchisment of poor people to make way for buy-to-let developers?

    I wonder, I really wonder.....

  126. Peterj

    hi hope all's well thanks for the link...you star!

    I shall try and understand it and let you know!

  127. That posho fuckwit-of-letters Simon Jenkins is at it again. Jesus it's time he fucked off. Jenkins asserts "most" of the Mexican Gulf oil "has mysteriously evaporated".

    First comment:

    17 Aug 2010, 8:13PM

    "Exquisite timing. Just as University of South Florida marine microbiologists are finding the oil hasn't miraculously "disappeared", but settled into the preserve of the bottom of the food chain phytoplankton, along with toxic dispersants, we get treated to this.

    Just precious."

    Quite. What a prick that man is.

  128. Frog2:

    Fuck me, I needed that to make me smile! Cheers!!!!! To JayR - you the star!

    I note that Signor Bracken has now reposted his image/avatar from 'downward-looking, handsome, faux inteelectual' to 'I'm looking at you kid@ eyes up pose! .... christ... he's been pouring over the contact sheets for months did mine and Clunie's (now deleted) CiF discussion of his 'looks' prompt this change of avatar heart I wonder?

    Peter, if you're reading, we prefer the mystique of the downward, feminine gaze, the full face is not really that rewarding.... too coy by 'alf.

  129. La Rit

    "I wonder, was this the Blair Govts. accelerated privatisation of everything public, including the forced disenfranchisment of poor people to make way for buy-to-let developers?"

    Pretty much. It's part of the Thatcherism dressed up in new (PFI) clothes, that has now come to dominate New Labour.

    It flies against everything that the Labour Party was supposed to stand for, for like a gazillion different reasons, not least because those who suffer (on HB etc) are, inevitably, those who Labour should be defending, and because the practices (reduced workers rights, further outsourcing) are exactly the things that the Labour party were supposed to be against.

    Which is why, Tony mother-fucking Blair is, and always will be, at the top of my 'please, just give me five minutes in a windowless room with him' list!!

  130. Apols for senseless grammar in last post....

  131. Am I really the only person who doesn't find Peter Brackens 'Olan Mills specials' photos in any way attractive?

    I am not a fussy woman (can't afford to be) but they don't do anything for me.

  132. Peter
    so in a nutshell basically it's down to individual's/ couples genetic makeup, social status i.e access to health resources such as genetic mapping counselling and preventitive medicine, access to abortion.
    Statistics and or research are pretty worthless due to the variables, as is the argument for banning first cousin marriage....
    am I at least sort of on the right track???

    oh and the fact that woolas cited it as being a massive problem, always is, for me at least, a red light and prompts me to say "load of bull phil".........

  133. Jen

    You had me at 'I'm not fussy'...


  134. @jen

    I had to look up Olan Mills - was that a common thing round your way? Seems it went bust in the UK in 2001.

  135. Jen
    "Am I really the only person......"

    .....relax......you are not alone jen!!

    Olan Mills......LOL

  136. Outstanding post by wightpaint on the John Harris thread:
    "For me, his legacy is not Iraq alone, tragic though the consequences of that invasion have been (and I'm not an apologist for Saddam Hussein, Islam - insofar as that had anything to do with Saddam until he found it a convenient shield - nor yet an opponent of the war to free Kuwait). His real legacy is that he destroyed the Labour Party. He was aided and abetted by credulous, sentimental delegates, compliant trade union barons, gutless apparatchiks, and a spineless National Executive Committee, but in the end, he and his loathsome colleagues took a working-class party and bourgeoisified it to death; took its soul and extinguished it; sacrificed progressive, if occasionally lunatic, ideals and smothered them and, worst of all, took hope and pissed all over it. All for the goal of personal power which, without any principle underpinning it, depended entirely on his own deeply flawed, shallow, self-serving judgement.
    Blair may bestow his largesse on whom he likes: for many of us, he will always be Britain's most contemptible Prime Minister, the man who vulgarized and cheapened our society, the man who toadied to a corrupt American government, the weak, pathetic fool who basked in George Bush's approval. Brown failed because he couldn't shake the Blair legacy from his shoulders; Labour will fail and continue to fail if it cannot learn from the fearful mistake it made in reposing trust in hucksters, shysters, PR-men, and shoddy journalists.
    It isn't even left or right; I have Richard Crossman's diaries; and Tony Benn's; and Michael Foot on Nye Bevan - I wouldn't tolerate Blair, Campbell or Mandelson on my bookshelves, because I have no time for spineless self-justification, and in any event could not trust a word they wrote.
    Could we have a decent political party, please, in place of this seething, writhing mass of duplicity?"

  137. Alisdair Cameron
    Cracking post indeed.

    I'm sure they're the very self-same reasons the Guardian chose to support the Lib Dems.

  138. BW:

    How weird, I read or saw that last week about the oil spill mysteriously 'disappearing'... Alexander Chancellor was going on about it....


  139. Night you unworthy bastards.

  140. La Ritournelle
    It's clearly the cool thing to bullshit about in the Garrick club this month... Chancellor is a complet fucking idiot; makes Jenkins look smart.

    Right. I'm orf. Tara, or Tata as they say in S Wales ;-)

  141. Indeed a fantastic post, Alisdair, thanks for sharing.

    Funnily enough, I've been reading quite a few 'open letters' to the Labour party today, and I think it's fair to say that there's a fair few unhappy campers about.

    It's just a fucking shame that nobody outside of the PLP can do anything about it!!

    Night Bitterweed!

  142. @gandolfo

    Yeah, that seems to be about it. There is a risk - fairly small, but there - for the offspring of cousins. That can be amplified where the grandparents have a similar relationship, and then more if all their parents were also cousins, and so on. But it depends on the particular genes in the population as well as their distribution, and you need full family trees and medical histories to make an attempt at working it out for individual couples.

    Interestingly, that 1998 paper mentions that it should not be assumed that non-Pakistani families are a perfect control group, mentioning one particular group of children from a particularly close-knit family of Irish travellers.

    Conclusion; don't jump to conclusions, particularly - as with Woolas - where there's a tendency to do it with both feet.

  143. I'm sure we had an Olan Mills in the town centre up until last year, we are a bit behind the times here but if things are going to go bust we normally get in on the ground floor.

  144. Latest news from Benefits and Work on a newer tougher ESA test being pushed through by this lot (but initially devised by New Lab) is totally shocking and very scary.

    ''“The shock plans, for ‘simplifying’ the work capability assessment for employment and support allowance (ESA) include docking points from amputees who can lift and carry with their stumps. Claimants with speech problems who can write a sign saying, for example, ‘The office is on fire!’ will score no points for speech and deaf claimants who can read the sign will lose all their points for hearing.
    Meanwhile, for ‘health and safety reasons’ all points scored for problems with bending and kneeling are to be abolished and claimants who have difficulty walking can be assessed using imaginary wheelchairs.
    Claimants who have difficulty standing for any length of time will, under the plans, also have to show they have equal difficulty sitting, and vice versa, in order to score any points. And no matter how bad their problems with standing and sitting, they will not score enough points to be awarded ESA.''

  145. Peter
    Infact it concludes by saying do we ban women over 40 from having children because there is a higher risk of birth defects.....no....of course not
    actually regardless of family relationships there is a significant stink of racism and islamophobia---- I'm sure woolas wouldn't have stood up and said that people of afro caribbean origin shouldn't have kids because of the risk of sickle cell aneamia.......

  146. PCC

    That's absolutely shocking!

    Where did you get it from?

  147. @jen

    Ah, I misread the date on a dodgy link. Here's a better one, showing it went bust on Boxing Day 2008.

    I'd still never heard the name in my life - have I been particularly sheltered?

  148. @gandolfo

    Indeed. I think that NIH article I linked to is a decent, sober piece of work - two adjectives I wouldn't hurry to apply to Woolas. There's a similar line from the Human Genetics Commission in the UK too, which you can read here.

  149. I doubt it Peter I only know of them because I did a bit of telesales for them, I was the worst cold caller in the world though so I packed it in pretty quickly.

    That is shocking stuff Princess, I was wondering since the new medicals don't take any medical history into account how totally lying about your capabilities would go down?

    If I just say I can't lift my arms above my head would they suddenly want some kind of medical evidence to support my claim?

  150. Right, that's me out.

    Night folks!!

  151. It's from the Benefits and Work site. They are normally pretty spot on. It is going to have to pass some sort of approval but the panel who look at it can apparently advise the government not to do it but they can't stop them implementing it.

    What amazes me is the bit about not getting ESA if you have 'significant problems sitting or standing' so are people going to be allowed to go to work laid down in their beds?

    And of course it means that people will lose ESA and be put onto means tested benefits as they probably won't qualify for JSA and it means if they have a partner earning anything at all they won't get a penny. It's fucking unbelievable. I am going to write to evil cuntboy Chris Grayling about it for all the good it will do.

    Nick fucking Clegg should die slowly of knob rot for this betrayal. Still it was all a New Lab wheeze to begin with anyway. Bunch of totally morally degenerate fucking arsewipes.

    Sorry for the swearing but I really needed to rant. A member of my family is disabled - cannot walk, is in constant pain and is permanently catheterised - they are retired but if they were of working age some 'medical worker' could possibly be finding them fit for work from next April. It is actually evil. I want to know if there is any legal way you can start some sort of protest and stop paying NI or a part of your tax? I know you are supposed to be able to do so if you are against military spending or war or something.

  152. Night James.

    I completely share your anger Princess, not just because I fear for myself (which I do) but because I know so many people in worse situations than mine who are really in danger of being put under unbearable pressure, one person I know in particular is obsessing about it to a dangerous degree.

    And yes I think it needs to be repeated loudly and often that this all started with Labour, I know some people think that either joining or rejoing the Labour party is one way to make a difference but they started this whole nightmare and I for one will not be quick to forget that.

  153. @PCC and James

    The full set of proposals put before the Social Security Advisory Committee is here (PDF). And reading between the lines, it looks pretty much as the Benefits and Work site describes it.

  154. Pcc et al

    New proposals - it looks as though the starting point is no longer "how can we support the sick/disabled" but "How can we punish them ".

    whoever is coming up with these proposals has been reading too much medieval hate speech.

  155. Thanks Peter. Jen it is a nightmare. The person I know is really concerned as they are going after DLA too. He needs crutches, mobility scooter, car and also tons of drugs and daily supply of catheters. This is what his DLA goes on. This whole thing is so heartless.

    It is also a mockery, I mean not taking into account people who cannot sit or stand! I loved the imaginery wheelchair bit. Priceless.

    Chris Grayling has been making some very nasty comments about the sick and disabled recently too. I hate them so fucking much - all of them.

    "I help care for a severely disabled child - my son.
    "It's what I do at the start of each day. It's sharpened my focus on the world of care assessments, eligibility criteria, disability living allowance, respite breaks, OTs, SENCOs, and other sets of initials.''
    David Cameron.

  156. Middle-class families face losing child benefit in a £13billion slashing of the universal welfare system.

    Winter fuel allowances for better-off pensioners also face the axe in plans being drawn up by Iain Duncan Smith, senior sources have revealed.

    The drastic cuts would end seven decades of state handouts for all regardless of income – and cost a typical family with two children more than £1,700 a year.
    Any reduction in benefits for pensioners will provoke claims of betrayal after David Cameron denounced as ‘pure lies’ Labour claims during the election campaign that he would axe payouts such as the winter fuel allowance.
    Mr Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, has won Treasury approval to spend £3billion on the up-front costs of creating a universal benefit system which would ensure that those in work are always better off than those on welfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303942/Bonfire-middle-class-benefits-Families-lose-13bn-welfare-clampdown.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz0wuS8v4LH

  157. Did he really say that PCC?

    He would use his disabled son (I assume he said it before the Ivan died) in order to make a point.

    And what his sharpened focus resulted in was him trying to make things harder for those in the same situation (without the 30 million pound cushion, obviously) I really don't have the words for the disgust I feel for him.

  158. Well I don't know if he def said it but it was from a news story on the death of his son. Jen - an interesting little point I have just noted in that document (Not read it all but some) is that assessments are supposed to take into account the ability of a claimant (or customer don't you know) to do something repeatedly. And they have to take into account exhaustion now as well as pain for those who cannot do repeated tasks without becoming over tired.

    So if you cannot work for more than a couple of hours without then having to lie down for three you cannot do normal tasks of work it would appear to me.

    Leni - well I wonder how long the Daily Mailers will still be behind IDS's 'radical' shake up of the welfare system when they realise their own precious benefits will have to be cancelled to pay for it.

    Fucking poetic justice!

  159. Hi Jeni

    I saw C on tv talking about his son - he certainly said that or something very similar.

    Promised to protect the NHS should he ever become PM.

    The cruelty of these people is making me feel quite murderous.

  160. Off to bed. Very tired and achey but so angry don't know if will get any much needed sleep. I don't know whether to weep or scream. I am so mad! Nite all.

  161. Thanks to PeterJ for the link to that inhuman DWP document. Utter fucking dastardly .


    ATOS again .

    I notice that they often refer to "Health Care Professionals", who do the ESA/Work Capablity Asessments. Obviously not all doctors, but what proportion are ? mikebach --

    In my case a nurse or midwife was not medically qualified to assess my medical condition. Even with my lay knowledge of medicine I find it hard to think of many medical conditions where a nurse or midwife is qualified to make an ESA assessment. The good news is the General Medical Council is not at all keen on individuals or organisations who bring medicine into disrepute. Remember a nurse or midwife knows it is a serious offence to misrepresent their qualifications as equivalent to that of a doctor. Doctors know it is a serious offence to misrepresent their qualifications to cover specialities outside their knowledge and experience. A Disability Analyst Doctor is unlikely to be qualified to assess a patient with a brain tumour
    mikebach's site -whywaitforever

  162. frog

    I was looking at a complaint to the GMC angle but see my post above from BMA site (17:55).

    They already have "vexatious" litigants covered !

  163. Well, I suppose they're the 30% of supported appeals to Appeal system who fail...

    That doctors can participate in the whole WCA charade is shameful also, a bureaucratised system gone mad. Medical education going down hill to more and more box-ticking too.

    Neeed some sleep so wish you and all a NN , in a few mins .

  164. dishes done, because the princess is coming down from the city for three days. 12 hours monday with the lifelong multihandicapped before the 24 hours of this weekend ... gruelling work.

  165. I notice no replies fromm jessica to all the posts from after she left friday. Sure some of them were proper 'suggestions' too. NN!

  166. chekhov

    i was wondering that too. Hope he is ok

  167. The "Duke" wanted a thread on "wadya" about people at the "coal face" with real problems and letting us all know about them.

    I won't comment on Cif 'cos I'm in "pre-mod" and have been for over six months and will be forever since I won't grovel to Jessica with an apology because the comment I posted was not unreasonable and did not contravene the "talk policy" on Cif.

    BTW: Duke, what do you want to know?
    Being un-employed is shit and being treated like shit for being un-employed just rubs salt into the wound.

    I've no doubt there are people who take the benefit system for a ride but most of us really do want to work and contribute.