Our own little corner of Stewart
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Jeeeez Montana what a brutal picture to wake up to - I don't mean PB's.Certainly highlights the quote from BF !
Ha, superb. Bitterweed in "I Agree with Peter Bracken" Shocker.Work beckons...
Re Camilla BI think she's politically naive and could well be being used which is worrying. I totally admire the work she has done for some of the most deprived kids in our society.For the sake of the thousands of kids she has helped and is helping I do hope she does not loose support because of this.The way she has managed to turn around the lives of some very damaged kids is one of the few hopeful things that is happening in this country at the moment.She almost certainly does not understand what she is dealing with and probably assumes that her involvement will benefit the kids she cares so much about.I do fear that she will be royally shafted though :-(She has a record for quite ruthlessly exploiting anyone who can provide her with publicity and funding I get the feeling that the only thing that counts for her is keping Kid's Company going.She'll continue to get my £10 a month anyway. If that means I have suddenly become a condem supporter in the eyes of some then so be it.
Anne:My sentiments exactly about CB and Kids Co.She is however, a perfect example of 'sticking plaster' solutions....back later got to go now!!!!Morning PeteB - nice to see you on early morning abusive form!UTWatcher - too close to CiFwatcher for my liking.... change your moniker and come clean.
Sorry to crosspost, but I've stuck this up on Whaddya...Very depressing news from France. An IFOP poll shows apparent strong support for the revolting, populist (and in certain cases illegal) measures announced by Sarkozy, including stripping naturalised people of their French nationality if they commit certain crimes, cracking down on the Roma and sending the parents of delinquent youths to prison.I try not to be cynical about people, but sometimes...Le Parisien article in French@JessicaThe poll is well worth an article, perhaps mentioning the usually unspeakable BHL's denunciation of the nationality measures in Le Monde.A good one for Agnès Poirier, I would have thought.* * *This is very, very depressing news. What is wrong with people?
Spike -- very good one there from BHL . Thanks .
Morning AllSpikeWhat is wrong with people ? I ask that question a dozen times a day. I can't find an answer. LaRit Camilla B - Sticking plaster solutions are about all we have - the numbers of kids in need of help is enormous. Camilla takes care of some of those who have been abused by individuals or those who are casualties of the system. Preventing the casualties is the ideal but we are a long way from this as yet. Cameron will certainly create more child victims and more adults will be brutalised y a system which rejects them and affords them no value.
@frog2Yes. For once I find myself approving of BHL. What next? Hope you're having a good August.@LeniYeah. You spend a lifetime trying to make a difference politically and then something like this comes up and you feel extraordinarily weary. Come on, the French, you're better than that, aren't you? You've done a pretty good job protecting the welfare state and stopping France going down the same road as the UK, and now you support shit like this?
Numbing photo above.Without wanting to get into the fundamental rights and wrongs of the Atomic bombs being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I recently read something on the planned land and sea invasion of Japan- Operation DownfallThe figures involved and the deaths and casualties expected are horrifying. However, those against the dropping of the bombs dispute the estimated death and casaulty rate, saying it was exaggerated to push for the dropping of the bomb.Operation Coronet the invasion of the main Island of Honshu was estimated at 1.2 million Allied casaulties in a 90 day battle alone.Allied chiefs of staff believed that they would meet resistance in Japan from every concievable angle and person.The Campaign would have involved up to 4.5 million serviceman from the USA, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc and have been the largest Naval Action in History. Another interesting aspect is the refusal of the US and British Chiefs of Staff to allow Soviet participation. This is despite the USSR having already declared war on Japan. The Cold War lines were being drawn already.
@DukeThose projected casualty figures for the invasion of Japan are, sadly, all too believable. You could compare the figures for the German invasion of Russia; in the first four months from June to October the Germans suffered roughly 700,000 casualties. And that was when the weather was good, the Germans were winning, and the Russian resistance was barely organised.
When I first came to Sheffield, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were officially commemorated every year in the Peace Gardens by the town hall. It was always a moving ceremony. Sadly it's not something that's done anymore, I think people prefer to go shopping.
Spike - I suspect we will see those Poll figures supporting the Sarkozy initiatives change when people have had more time to think about them. As you know august means many pols, trade unionists, journos are away from their posts, which makes it the traditional time for sneaking through stuff like that. A hope ?August much the same as other months for me, apart from more "Parisiens :)" about. Without the net,radio, local rags, could be on a Desert Island . Mayor had a run-in with the gens de voyage a couple of weeks ago, first time in history as we've always had good relations with their chiefs. It broke down there about them causing a water-shortage in town. ( Town plus surroundings being 2000 souls )Actually only a handful affected, so affair was blown up ...and I did hear some "anti-manouche" chatter ... but most people just keep a sharp eye on their hen-houses ;) hehe
A very affecting picture, it is important to commemorate and remember just how bad things can get, the idea that the bomb that resulted in that amount of lost life might have been the lesser of two evils just makes me feel physically sick.I wish I believed that it couldn't happen again.
Peter,I know, it's an exceptionally difficult one. I can see both sides of the debate. The campaign would have been mind numbing in its brutality as there was every sign the Japanese would never surrender and would fight to the last man.However, the bomb was purposely used on civilian populations and was Realpolitik at its most cynical- to show the USSR that the USA had the bomb. It's the great moral dilemma when trying to understand the reasoning. As Jennifer says, the lesser of two evils can just be as sickening. If you are in a DVD club, a film to watch is The Sun. It dramatises the last few days before the Japanese surrender from the point of view of Emperor Hirohito. It's a very internalised, existentialist film and makes it all the more effective for it.
@DukeWith the viewpoint of 1945, the decision must have seemed simpler. Nobody knew exactly how destructive the atomic bomb would be, although there were good guesses, and it was regarded as just a super-effective version of the bombs that were being dropped by the hundred thousand on civilian centres across the world. The morality of the bombing was accepted, and the efficiency of using one bomb and one plane instead of thousands of each was seen as a good thing.It's probably hard for us to see it now as the decision-makers of the time saw it.I'm also not particularly convinced by the arguments about the bombs being primarily demonstrations to the USSR rather than attacks on Japan. I don't think that was the primary motivation, although - as far as the US was concerned - it might have been a marginal plus point.
Peter,I'm also not particularly convinced by the arguments about the bombs being primarily demonstrations to the USSR rather than attacks on Japan. I don't think that was the primary motivation, although - as far as the US was concerned - it might have been a marginal plus pointHave to disagree with you there. The US reasoning for using the Atomic bomb vis a vis the USSR was twofold. The USA did not want the USSR to have any say in the post war future of Japan. The Chinese Civil War was still raging between Chiang Kai Shek and Mao Tse Tung and the US despite aiding Kai-Shek could not be sure that China would not tuen communist.Therefore a swift victory over Japan was needed without Soviet help to ensure US interests in the pacific and SE Asia continued. Truman did not want to 'share' Japan in the same way post war Europe was being 'shared'. And there is a compelling case to be made that Truman wanted to give a 'show of strength'. The bomb was also being used to intimidate the USSR in the increasingly fractious European situation. Stalin's apparent disinterest when Truman told Stalin he had the bomb at Potsdam was due to the fact Soviet Intelligence had known about the Manhattan project since 1941.
Morning allJeez that picture! But absolutely crucial we look at it? Too often it,s easy to look away and not face up to certain realities.@LaRit-i,m not sure there,s any point in continuing this 'discussion'.I find your accusations of misogyny highly offensive especially as you don,t know me and you,re clearly twisting and misquoting what i,m saying.For instance i didn,t say that the NSPCC claim that women are the main child abusers.What i did say was that NSPCC research claims that women are more likely than men to subject children to non-sexual abuse defined as being physical violence,emotional and psychological abuse and neglect.Plus i,ve said that every year in the UK BETWEEN 70-80 children die because of DV.And that women,either acting alone or in collusion with the men they,re with-a high % of whom are step fathers-are involved and therefore have a certain guilt in the majority of those child deaths.Simply claiming the majority of women involved are victims of a patriachal system thus attempting to exonnerate them from any blame is facile.I provided Sheff with a link yesterday regarding Camila B,s views on relationship breakdowns and maternal abuse specifically in the Black community.How i feel that those views could equally be applied across the whole of the population.However as you,ve already decided that Camila B has sold out to the devil without having a shred of evidence to back it up there clearly isn,t any point in us addressing that particular dimension to the problem anymore.Finally i,ve always maintained that i think the majority of men and women are decent.And i,ve never sought to play down or ignore the fact that a minority of men can be violent and abusive.However i do passionately believe that in the true spirit of gender equality there needs to be much greater recognition of the role a minority of women play as both the instigators and perpetrators of violence and abuse within their familial relationships and in the wider community.
@DukeWill have to come back to this later, I'm afraid. But I'm sure there were elements of what you say involved in the decision. Whether that decision was pure Weltpolitik, though, I still doubt.More when I'm back again.
Re Hiroshima, Kamm is rather good on this:"Hiroshima and Nagasaki are often used as a shorthand term for war crimes. That is not how they were judged at the time. Our side did terrible things to avoid a more terrible outcome. The bomb was a deliverance for American troops, for prisoners and slave labourers, for those dying of hunger and maltreatment throughout the Japanese empire - and for Japan itself. One of Japan's highest wartime officials, Kido Koichi, later testified that in his view the August surrender prevented 20 million Japanese casualties. The destruction of two cities, and the suffering it caused for decades afterwards, cannot but temper our view of the Pacific war. Yet we can conclude with a high degree of probability that abjuring the bomb would have caused greater suffering still."
PeterjThere were definite qualms at high levels and whilst they may not have understood the full horror, they did know it would be bad. I do also believe they were keen to show the USSR the extent of their power.DWIGHT EISENHOWER"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent."During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63Who disagreed with the bombingYour GraceI've seen that film...it was very affecting as you say. The interview with MacArthur particularly.
"....This is despite the USSR having already declared war on Japan.The Cold War Lines were being drawn already..."Interesting point and observation DukeI,for one, have no difficulty in believing that when the 'list' of pro and con for dropping the bomb was drawn up and presented it included words to the effect..." and it will have a demonstration effect that will scare Uncle Joe and them Commies shitless..."The strand of thinking about our valuable casualties (military) versus their worthless casualties (civilian (in lieu of a determined entrenched military enemy)) seems to have current currency in things like drone aeroplanes and robot devices. All equipped with enough fire power to vaporise (from a safe position far away) albeit on a micro level.Of course they keep getting it wrong 'cos interpreting reality from a screen is like...... trying to make sense of all the currents and angsts that flow through UT from time to time.( I sometimes wonder if some of our UT friends take sides in UT conflicts too easily - we would all be well advised re to read carefully and over a long time here at UT before nailing our flags to any particular mast....I wondered how long UTWatcher had been lurking before reaching his/her/herm conclusions )I was thinking about the alleged insider trader Bracken's riposte above. I don't know but wouldn't a nine carat twat have made more sense?If I understand it 9c is more shoddy in the value stakes. To elevate one's critic to 24c seems another careless trade. Then on the other hand it might be said that it was about purity of twatishness.............We ought to have vote - which is the finer insult 9 or 24 carat twat?Ah the difficulty of making sense from words on screens............I'm off to walk the dog.
Old Harry's Game back on R4.Fundamentalist: We're God's followers!Satan: More like his stalkers...heheheheheheh.
You could have had ademonstration effect of the atomic bomb by vapourising a military target..You could have had a longer time lag for the demonstration effect to sink in before dropping the second bomb....
PhillipaLove Old Harrys GameQ: How do we devise a punishment for someone too stupid to worry about physical pain?A: Condemn them to the pit of health and safety inspectors!I am Satan, prince of darkness, I do not hang about with people called Marjorie...he..he..he..Off for lunch with No1 son.
DeanoA 9c twat is only 9/24ths of a twat whereas a 24ct one is twat all through.
deano'' I sometimes wonder if some of our UT friends take sides in UT conflicts too easily - we would all be well advised re to read carefully and over a long time here at UT before nailing our flags to any particular mast''I,d agree with that.I think some people here have a habit of jumping on a bandwagon without knowing the full facts and can inflame an already volatile situation by doing so.
Ah, Pete, mate listen I’m sorry, I was drunk when I wrote that stuff. I just lost it, mate. Can we still be buddies? I just hope I haven’t blown it with you ‘cos you’re one of the posters I most respect round here, honest! A 24 carat poster, in fact!! Really hope you can forgive me!!!
Sheff,very interesting Ike quote there which supports the "message to USSR" argument. Of course Ike as President also made the famous danger of the "military/industrialcomplex" speech as President, as well asEvery gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.Peter B,Oliver Kamm- the man gives me the 'dry boak' (look it up in a Glaswegian dictionary ;)) I can't believe his mum is Anthea Bell, the wonderful translator of 'Asterix' into English.Although I do note that Oliver Kamm is the nephew of Martin Bell, so that's not a nepotistic argument you're throwing in there is it? ;)
PAulI think there is a difference between blindly supporting a particular poster and dis/agreeing with a pov or contesting facts and stats. Stats can be very confusing. In the DV arena it first depends upon how you define it. If you talk about adult on adult violence then you will get one figure - based only on reported cases . It becomes too easy then to manipulate figures to make the 'case' you want to present. Most authorites are agred that more women suffer serious injury and death at the hands of men in the family than vv - this is backed by stats which look only at this aspect of dv. The figures which suggest that a high % of men are violent is based on a misreading of data because some men have many partners and abuse them all - so 6 women being beaten doesn't mean 6 men were violent, it could perhaps be only 1.Once you add in neglect, emmotional and sexual abuse of children or adults the picture becomes even less clear, particularly in the case of children as there is often an instigator and collaborator. Sometimes people - men + women - find it easier to ignore, to pretend it is not happening. They are also culpable but , in a few cases, are also helpless victims. The figures for teen or adult offspring abuse of older relatives is not often mentioned but does exist. There are many cases where one family member is made drudge and scapegoat and is abused y everyone in the family. Then we have single sex relationships. All the research shows that the use of violence and other abuse as a tool of control - or sometimes for the pleasure - is common across all groups. Would you class institutional abuse of children as DV when used by carers?
Cheap shot, Duke: you taking a leaf out of my book?
@frog2Yes, we can only hope that people see a little more sense come September.* * *re Hiroshima, the obvious thing to do would have been to have a public test of the bomb and say to the Japanese, "There are more where that came from if you don't surrender." But it's become fairly clear with released US documents that giving the Soviets a clear signal was very much a concern.* * *I've just dragged my republicdaughter from her bed at the unearthly hour of 1 pm. After lunch, we're off to Cordoba and we'll stop off at the delightful Estacion de Luque for a beer (it's a disused railway station turned into a café). Tonight, a friend's daughter is arriving from Madrid and we're going out on the town for fino and tapas. Tomorrow lunchtime, we'll be at the beautiful swimming pool in Montilla. So polls apart, I'm having a brilliant time.Wish you were here, etc.
Hi Leni''think there is a difference between blindly supporting a particular poster and dis/agreeing with a pov or contesting facts and stats.''Absolutely agree with you.I was making a general point and wasn,t relating it to any particular discusion.Plus i think alcohol consumption can be a contributory factor in some of the spats here anyway.So people-including myself-aren,t always at their most reasonable.''Would you class institutional abuse of children as DV when used by carers? ''Absolutely.And of adults as well.We have a real problem of elder abuse in this country which i don,t think gets the attention it should.And of adults with mental and physical disabilities.You,re also absolutely right about stats.Often the same sets of stats can be used to support opposing points of view.Plus there is the issue of whether the research has been properly qualified and quantified and most of all fair.For instance if we,re looking at DV shouldn,t questions be asked of both parties in a couple?And how do we know whether people are telling the whole truth or not.Plus there is the issue of context.For instance we,re regularly told about the women killed because of DV but rarely if ever in the context of the men and children who are also killed.
SpikeSounds like fun - we have rain, low cloud and general murk here.Out local pub is a converted railway building. Used to be the route of the coal trains. At one time it also took local families into town and to the coast for days out. Most of the route is now cycle lanes between mountain bike trails. WE have to watch out for manically pedalling Dutchmen if we walk along them What is it with the Dutch and bikes ? The platform at the pub is still there with a deep drop to the long gone line - many an unwary drunk has fallen over the edge.
I wouldn't go as far as calling it habit Paul we all make misguided partially informed choices from time to time. Divorce lawyers make a fine living from that reality...Chap once gave me some good advice......."if you are venturing into 'flammable volatile' places wear asbestos, don't carry petrol on your person, and don't be distracted by matters off stage .." He liked a mixed tale he did.I, and he, spent a misguided youth in the smoke filled fractious rooms of the 'left' of yesteryear. But then so too did my much, and rightly, admired comrade A42 and she came out of it more civilised than me.Some of us don't only admire the skill of Eric Blair as a writer, we admire the styles of some UT advocates too. You and I, and few others, could learn a lot from their likes....It has to be said that if we had to wait for the 'full facts' we would wait for ever. As I understand it the art is to have sufficient facts and then to distinguish them from old affections and campaigns.Nothing wrong with old affections of course I have many of them myself and keep aquiring new ones here on UT. Might be said that I have no capacity to discriminate between the saints and sinners. I'm an alleged lightweight 'cos I think that most on UT are of generous and decent intent albeit sometimes hasty in their reading of events/issues but then life is hectic for them in a way it is not for me.
Leni 9/24ths - love it.But then he is a cheap shot merchant.
The second bomb was of a different type to the first, so a second city and it's people were destroyed as a science experiment.How can people do these things?
LeniThe other thing that surprised me about the government research on DV was the relatively high risk of being a victim in gay and lesbian relationships.I obviously knew that DV can be a problem in same sex relationships but i hadn,t realised the differentials were so stark-especially with regard to lesbian couples.And i,m reminded of a letter Erin Pizzey once had published in the Guardian addressing the issue of DV amongst lesbians.And asking why rad fems had so much difficulty acknowledging that straight women could be abusive in their familial relationships when their was evidence that lesbians could be.For if you remember some rad fems in the past were so hellbent on demonising men they actually promoted the myth that lesbian relationships were safer.And on a different matter we used to have those who argued that because of the high % of lone mothers in the Black community we have less of a problem of DV against children than white people.Which is bollox.It,s so easy to manipulate stats to support some pretty dodgy theories.
DeanoA saint is an artificially created construct. Most of us are 18 ct I think - about 60% good backed up by a rather doubtful 40% of something else. Sometimes this is simply confusion, received belief etc. and sometimes getting drunk and going ott which is usually forgiveable. The bad all through are fortunately a very small minority.
deanoNo need to get defensive :-)I wasn,t taking the moral high ground and i,m old enough to know that utopia dowesn,t exist.And it,s part of the human condition that males and females alike have the capacity to form alliances for all sorts of different reasons and not necessarily because they are in full agreement with each other.
deanoAnd i should have added-'in full possesion of the facts well.'
TurminderI/m with you on this one.The A bombs were inexcusable in any circumstances. The second one even worse. It is worth noting that not only did US use German scientist post war but also data from the Japanese 'Logs of Wood' experiments - many of which used living people to test endurance and resiliance to extreme conditions and inflicted pain. There is no purity of war doctrine - it is a nasty, no holds barred process with gvt. and military willing to use devices and methods they so roundly condemn when used by the 'enemy'..Militarists and weapons manufacturers are in fact comrades in arms - no matter who they are.
"..and i,m old enough to know that utopia dowesn,t exist..."I sometimes wish I was.Hope your recent illness has gone.Have a great weekend.
Stopped raining so that's me out with Mungo.Hope you and No1 son had good lunch Sheff
DukeThere was school of thought that believed that the purpose of the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were as as much about firing a 'warning shot' to the Soviets-who didn,t possess the atomic bomb at the time-as they were to finishing off the war.against Japan. I,ll have to double check the facts but if memory serves me correctly the Japanese government were close to surrender and that calls into question the allied claim that the bombs were necessary to finish off the war.And that the real issue was that the Americans were hellbent on occupying Japan and moulding them into a key ally in the region to offset what they saw as the threat of Soviet expansionism.Might be wrong but i don,t think the Americans saw the the Chinese as being such a threat at the time.The Americans and British were also worried about the expansionist ambition of the Soviets in Eastern Europe.So again the dropping of the atomic bomb served as a warning.However from the Soviet perspective their claim on Eastern Europe was in order to create a buffer zone between Soviet Russia-the western and most developed parts having been devastated by in the 'Great Patriotic War'-and what they rightly perceived to be the rise in American influence in Western Europe.Put this way it really does call into question what most of us our taught to believe regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
TurmNice one, I used to get all them. I think we already established that Kirby was a GodWho here then is Omac ...?;-)
Nap - re Hardy from last night. Jude is my favourite of his novels. As you say, the immoral ones (in Hardy's way of thinking - and mine) are those who pass judgment on the less fortunate.
Hi TurmI love these supermen'villain type stories. In some religious traditions the fallen angels - the nephilim - are also known as the watchers. Teir taking of the 'daughters of men' as wives created the ancient races of giants and heroes. Cue the transhumanists and Bank's post humanist world.
Never read the distinguished competition BW, but I could postulate on the apposititude of that alternate identity for one of the more verbosing wordage generators who frequents this parish..If you were a SH who'd you like to be?I gotta say my fave is THE HULK! But a hard road to walk... Are not all religions just an earlier ages 'funny pages' just taken way to seriously for too long?
Paul,Regarding Hiroshima, the issue for me is America's insistence on the unconditional surrender of Japan. The question remains whether, had the US relaxed that condition, the bombs (or at least the second) would have been necessary. The notion, however, that Truman was sending a putative, if early, Cold War shot across the bows is conspiratorial nonsense.
In a scene reminiscent of Saruman the wizard creating monstrous Uruk-Hai to wage unending, merciless war, we find billions of American tax dollars have flowed into the Pentagon's Frankensteinian dream of "super-soldiers" and the "Extended Performance War Fighter" program (EPWFP). Not only does the EPWFP envision "injecting young men and women with hormonal, neurological and genetic concoctions; implanting microchips and electrodes in their bodies to control their internal organs and brain functions; and plying them with drugs that deaden some of their normal human tendencies; the need for sleep, the fear of death, [and] the reluctance to kill their fellow human beings," but Chris Floyd in an article for CounterPunch a while back quoted the Daily Telegraph and Christian Science Monitor, saying,"some of the research now underway involves actually altering the genetic code of soldiers, modifying bits of DNA to fashion a new type of human specimen, one that functions like a machine, killing tirelessly for days and nights on end.... mutations [that] will 'revolutionize the contemporary order of battle' and guarantee 'operational dominance across the whole range of potential U.S. military employments" (6)In keeping with our editorial, imagine the staggering implications of such science if dead Nephilim tissue was discovered with intact DNA and a government somewhere that was willing to clone or mingle the extracted organisms to make Homo-nephilim. If one accepts the biblical story of giants as real, such discovery could actually be made someday, or perhaps already has been and was covered up. The technology to resurrect the extinct species already exists, and cloning methods are being studied now for use with bringing back Tasmanian Tigers, Wooly Mammoths and other extinguished creatures.Let not the dead live, let not the giants rise again… (Isaiah 26.14, Douay-Rheims Version)The reference above from the Book of Isaiah 26:14 could be troubling, as it may reflect a prayer from the prophet, a petition to God not to allow the giants to incarnate again.-------------------------- something to think about - have no idea at all about this supposed research .
Oliver Kamm? Wasn't he the goalie for Bayern München?
@Duke, SheffIt's worth noting that the Eisenhower quote comes from 1963, with a very different political background from 1945, and that there is no evidence of the discussion he references having taking place. In fact there is no contemporary evidence of US Generals or commanders having any objection at all to the use of atomic weapons.As for the Soviet Union, it was US policy to encourage Stalin to declare war on Japan; the US ambassador in Moscow was congratulated for having helped to bring it about. Which is fair enough; if you're going to lose hundreds of thousands of troops in an invasion of Japan, why not let your ally lose some of them too?Additionally, rather than stoking the Cold War with nuclear threats, the US Government promoted the destruction of all nuclear weapons and the establishment of international control over nuclear energy and research at the very beginning of 1946.The revisionism about Hiroshima and Nagasaki appeared long after the events themselves, out of understandable repulsion at the unique nature of the weapons as well as a changing political worldview.
Leni, life imitates art, but we'll get Watchmen and 1984, not Star Trek :(
Peter B''The notion, however, that Truman was sending a putative, if early, Cold War shot across the bows is conspiratorial nonsense.''I need to do a bit more research before i,m able to enter into a reasonably coherent debate with you about this.I was first introduced to this theory by my lecturer at FE College some years ago when i was studying for A,Level in Modern History. He was very much a man who taught us to think 'outside the box'.And i can remembering him warning us that many people would instantly dismiss such a theory out of hand.And even accuse exponents of such a theory as being marxists-god forbid!Anyway it,s good to see you still firing on all cylinders despite all the flak you get.And as we,re both contenders for the UT Shit Stakes may the best man/woman win :-)
LeniDoes sound a bit science fictiony but after the 'men who stare at goats' thing I suppose anything is possible. I thought though, they were going in the opposite direction, i.e. trying to find ways of taking 'their' human beings out of the direct line of fire where ever possible, with things like drones and that system the Israelis have come up with - the gun that can be fired remotely. They have them up on the Gaza wall apparently.
Does anyone know how China reacted to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
UTWatcher is trying to palm themselves off as Hank Marvin (or whatever) or are they the real dealio .. hic... ... ?
'men who stare at goats'? Jaysus! They'll be dragged down to Hades.
SheffProtection of our own soldiers allied to the indiscriminate killing of the enemy - including civilians - by remote means would quickly be over ridden in the event of a real or imagined direct threat. The 'warrior class' would be sacrificed again as so often before. Modern democracies have managed to fight their wars on foreign soil for more than a generation - managing to protect both infrastructure and populations.Special forces are still used - just what some of them get upto is anyones guess. Projecting the idea that they somehow possess special powrs no doubt reassures the gullible.
Just been sent this Arrested for stealing waterI despair, sometimes, I really do.
@MartynI can't find any contemporary info on that just now - I'll keep looking.On the other hand, many Chinese people today seem to think that any atrocity that happened to the Japanese was well-deserved. There's an example from last year (with disturbing images) here.
Perhaps I'll put despair on hold - here's a little bit of good news from Jenin
PeterJHardly surprising given the atrocities committed by the Japanese in China.The Rape OF Nanking' being just one of many dreadful examples.
sheffI go beyond despair over so many things. The water issue in IP is critical - and a policy driver. The drought isthe worst for 80 years - increasing aridity all round. Rain falls patterns have altered. More rain used to fall in the north - replenishing catchment areas - Golan/Syrian heights and the Bethlehem Acer area -this fed both the Jordan and the aqivers. More rain now in south - flooding Wadis and running off. Parts of Gaza wre flooded last year in a rush of water thru a wadi. All ran to waste as no consevation measures in place. The main Israeli water carrier runs south from Galilee - some suggestions of this being polluted but being emphatically denied by Israeli water authorities. It is fair to say that tho Israel now controls water in WB and Gaza to the detriment of the Ps this in part is down to the ARab League. A plan in the 50s to organise and share water between Syria, Jordan Israel and WB was rejected tho Israel was willing. So seperate systems were built.WB now overpopulated in terms of water resources. Sorry about long post - global water supplies and implications is one of my 'things'
LeniYou might find this site interesting if you haven't already seen it:WaterNet
I won't contribute much to the discussion of Hiroshima/Nagasaki because, beyond what we learn in school, I've never really delved into the decision. What I can contribute is anecdotal:My grandfather grew up on a farm not far south of Truman's hometown of Independence, Missouri, and was an engineer on the CB&Q railroad. Sometime in the 50s (sorry, I don't know if I was ever even told exactly when), my grandfather was "dead-heading" from St. Louis to St. Joseph, Missouri. Truman was riding alone in a carriage and somehow found out about my grandfather (being from Cass County) and asked that he be invited to ride with him to keep him company.In the course of tellling my grandfather about his time as President, he told my grandfather that it had been the hardest decision he'd ever had to make and that the deaths of all those Japanese civilians would prey upon his mind for the rest of his life.I know that there are a lot of people who think that Truman was some sort of monster for having made that decision -- but it simply isn't true.
PeterJ,I take your point on board about Eisenhower's reminiscences, but I think you push the USA's 'peaceful' end to the war intentions a bit too far.Indeed, the USA had pushed for the USSR to declare war on Japan after the War in Europe was over but this was at Yalta when FDR was still President. Intriguingly, the deal was that Stalin would declare war 90 days after the end of the War in Europe- May 8th plus 90 days is August 8th. By Potsdam as you know, the cast list had changed. Instead of FDR and Churchill it was Truman and Attlee. Truman was an ardent anti-Communist and his perception of Stalin's actions in Europe post VE day and the precarious position of Chiang Kai Shek in China meant he was anxious that the USA should have an unchallenged sphere of influence in that region. The Soviets would have moved into Manchuria and East Asia to fight the occupying Japanese forces thus throwing enormous weight behind Mao Tse Tung. This was unacceptable to Truman and therefore the war against Japan had to be ended as soon as possible.So whilst I agree that there was military expediency in a quick Japanese surrender, I am also aware that taken into consideration was the post war East Asian and Pacific situation vis a vis the Soviet Union.It's too simplistic a narrative to suggest that the USA used as physically and morally destructive weapon as an atomic bomb without positioning themselves for post war realities.
Montana,amazing story about Truman and your Grandad.
@DukeAs I said, there was undoubtedly an element of post-war planning in the decision- perhaps we could argue about how much, although I'd need to do a lot more research for that one!Could we agree that the Medialens style of revisionism, where there was no military justification at all for the atomic bombs, is going a long way further than the evidence permits?
If you were a SH who'd you like to be ?Tony Benn...
MontanaGood grandad story. I must admit that although I have read the various poltical and military arguments for and against the use of the A bomb my objections are based on the effects it had - not only on the people at the time but on succeeding generations. I have the same feelings - with enhanced fury as we really should now know better - over the use of depleted uranium. People are still tying themselves in knots trying to explain away the inexplicable. Families in Fellujah are now advised to have no more babies because of the frequency an severity of birth defects since the invasion. Gene pools do not collapse and turn sour in this way naturally - there has to be an external precipitating factor.
@LeniYou've reminded me that I need to finish my piece on those cancer figures from Fallujah. I shall do so in the next couple of days.
deano "..and i,m old enough to know that utopia dowesn,t exist..."'I sometimes wish I was.'But i think we all hang on to the hope that whilst Utopia is an unrealistic goal we must be able to achieve something much better.Especially for those in need.Otherwise those of us with any social conscience become too cynical,depressed or just plain bitter,n,twisted.Everytime i read the attitudes expressed on some of the disability threads on CIF i have to resist the temptation to either explode or plunge into despair.Because at present such all too prevalent ignorant attitudes underpin what is so fundamentally unjust and unfair in this country .And i plead guilty to occasionally thinking WTF.What can i do other than very small things here and there.Ain,t got the time or energy to do any more.But that feeling of frustration and anger is there all the time because i simply can,t see any light at the end of the tunnel.So just plod on day by day hoping things will get better.Anyway i,m well aware that many people feel the same way and have things far worse than me.So onwards and upwards!Have a great weekend my friend!
PeterJ,Could we agree that the Medialens style of revisionism, where there was no military justification at all for the atomic bombs, is going a long way further than the evidence permits?Agreed. As you say I think we disgree on the extent of the post war Realpolitik on the decision but on the case of there being military expediency in the decision then yes, I think we converge.
Thanks for that Montana.
And speaking of our discussion, a Hiroshima thread has just opened on CiF and already it's turning into a 'good v evil' simple narrative fest. This one is going to run and run.....
Evening AllThanks for your warm welcome. Now that I'm one of the gang, is it ok if I start calling people cunts? You know, like Peter "insider dealer" Bracken and Montana and Hank and Paul Bedwetter do? Don't want to offend anyone so thought I should ask first, being a newbie. What's the general view on 'cunt' as a name for anyone you don't like?
Evening watcherare you one of the fallen angels - or something else entirely?I tend to stick to 'B' for invective - when in extremis I go for 'bugger' or 'bastard' - as a general rather than specific personal descriptor.
Duke"turning into a 'good v evil' simple narrative fest."What a surprise... My advice is to step away from the thread... nice and easy...
BWI got as far as the still standing Virgin M - then backed silently away.
UTW In Glasgow cunt is often used as a word of warm approval, as in, "cunt of a fitba player" - but can't say I'm a fan. I've often wondered why that part of the female anatomy that most hetero men can't get into often enough is used as a term of abuse.
SheffWomen use it too. I could go all Freudian and say it is evidence of rejection of self - I won't tho as I think it has become disconnected from original meaning. Freud was a bit strange.Odd word to choose tho.
Evening UTWatcherThe thing about the word cunt is that if it,s overused it tends to lose it,s effectiveness as a form of abuse and just gets irritating.I liked the film 'Nil by Mouth' but i have to admit that the overuse of the word cunt in that production did begin to grate.But with regard to your question i personally have absolutely no objection to you using it.There are after all a number of people of both sexes who use it here so why shouldn,t you.With regard to your allegations of bedwetting i can assure you there are no involuntary nocturnal emissions taking place in my household.Welcome to UT by the way and thanks for putting me through to the UT Shit Stakes Competition.For it has actually made me feel i belong here at long last.And i,m so excited about it i might even wet meself-oops! :-)
My ex hated the c word, Until she was in control of a car. Then every cunt on the road was a fuckin, mother fucking cunt!Fuck, can be used as a comma, the Leith comma, and Cunt is the full stop;Women use it too. I could go all Freudian and say it is evidence of rejection of self...Women cunts use it too, ya cunt. I could fuckin' go all fuckin' Freudian and say it's fuckin' evidence of rejection of cuntin' self...I've met intelligent incisive people who talk like that...
Hmm...I regularly and liberally use the terms "penis", "bell-end", "cock", "helmet" and "knob" towards unfavourable persons with dubious judgement.Whereas a cunt is just a cunt.Wierd.
Before I go out for the evening, I just wanted to put this humdinger here from the Hiroshima thread. Whether it's a pisstake or not I know not:They started it, we finished it. The USA was much more successful when we fought to crush our enemies....I miss those days. Playing pattycake with a new bunch of savages in Afghanistan is very disheartening. At least the Japanese had the good sense to join the modern world after the war, the Afghans seem to much prefer abusing women in their 13th century wonderland. It is nice to be certain, and suffer no sense of guilt whatsoever! Bleeding hearts everywhere really ought to try it.And as for the C U Next Tuesday word, I can confirm what sheff says about its usage in Glasgow. It's used as a noun, a pronou, a verb, an adjective.....Have a good evening all.
And only the other day I described Sally Bercow as a "fucking knob-head". Which I'm sure most will agree, was as accurate as it was incisive.
Thanks guys! I think I get it.So I could say: Peter Bracken is a stupid cuntBut to be even-handed gender-wise I should say:Peter Bracken is a stupid prickOr:Peter Bracken is a fucking stupid knob-endBut to be a bit less extreme I would say:Peter Bracken is a stupid bastardOr:Peter Bracken is a stupid buggerOr I could just tell the truth, I suppose:Peter Bracken is a decaying piece of child molestor's jizz licked off his daughter's rectum by his grandmother who he routinely takes up the arse with a church candle*Sorry, Pete, mate - just joking. You're a 24 carat mate, I'm telling you!UTW*the extra large sort, greased with some special olympian Bracken verbosity-unguent
Evening allUTWatcher - whatever you may think of Peter Bracken, that comment about his daughter is out of order.Re "cunt" - not a word I used at at all until I was in my 40s. Hell, I didn't even start saying "fuck" until I was 30 something.But it just seems to be ubiquitous now. Still don't like it as a word, though. Even if I do sometimes use it.I think I will be ducking out of the Hiroshima thread - too icky.
Hmm. Nice out. Think I'll get mine out.
LOL BW!Haven't heard that one in a while.Reminds me of "Shut the door! It's cold out!""What's the point? If I shut the door it will still be cold out."
What are the chances of having some choonz instead of a fight this evening?
I mean ... in the evening it's time to relax....
UTWWhatever you feel about PB, imo you're way out of order with your last comment. Trying to see how far you can go? - well it's too far for me. Are you trying to prove that you're a moron?
evening all.......sheff hope you're okalisdair hope your wife's okin synthesis hope all are ok.......UTW you appear not to like PBracken but being offensive about his daughter is low and unnecessary why do you think it's acceptable to do that?personally I try not to use the word cunt except in exceptional cases....I think you may be my first on line cunt though......
UTWatchHowever much Peter,s pissed you off don,t involve his kids.I don,t know if you,re a dad but i know how i,d feel if someone said something like that about my daughter.And indeed about either of my grandmothers if they were still alive.Even by UT standards you,ve crossed a line.So please delete that post.And please leave our kids out of it when you,re judging those of us who are contenders for the UT Shit Stakes.
Montana, Thanks for correcting my link. It was late and I was a little bit dysfunctional in the early hours. I need to look at preview. Why no reggae choonsz on here ? ever !!!! Must introduce u guys to: takin it easy
tasciaNo reggae tunes ???You must be a very very recent arrival.This one's been a regular party fave among these parts long time....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DALQbFHwxIAw mama !!!
Oh come on people UTtwitcher's just trying to get a reaction and then "prove" some shit about moderation, groupthink, hypocrisy, that kind of fucking thing.Or something else equally banal.You're just setting up his punchlines by rising to it ya daft bananas. You really taking him seriously ?? I sure as shit ain't.Pushing back boundaries takes some skill to do even half well.... mmm.... slurp...:-pxxx
BW 'Barbwire in his underpants' ? should have gone to Island.Like it but piss poor recording.
If hostilities don't cease, I'll tell me ma!
BW-Have yet to impress you with my music but i,m a patient man.So let,s try you with this.
Paul Bastard !!! u nicked my fav tune. I was savin that one for later
Not great sound quality, but what the heck, it's Friday night ..here's a choon
Oh, are we going all soulful?Lissen up, menz!
tasciacottage industry I guess.. also old...thaumaGlorious !
BW Or this ?
Here's some "mento"Lovely feel... euphoricLord Kitchener... Sugar Bum Bum
Almost time for carnival, so nice one, Bitters my man.
PaulHell yes... Much more like it ;-)MsChinRighteous !
The last one was lovers rock but who cares.Bob Marley ?Text}
Good choon MsChin, just had a nice groove to that baby with me missus!
Carroll Thompson - awesome !Tryin' to keep up with you cunts.Heh.
Ooo - let's have more lovers
Carnival ???Here's a track from, IMHO, the best live reggae album... Ever.Live and Direct...
Going out fer a smoke. That last one looks interesting MsChin... checking that when I get back.(DAMN pity my laptop speakers are so shite. No bass....)
Back from driving me Dad home.Glass of wine, feet up.Sorted - Tosh anyone?
Excellent. Just got home to find that bloody Hiroshima thread.But, on the other hand, I also found the long version.
Hi allThanks so much for telling me I've gone too far. I'm a new person here so I have a lot to learn. I guess I have 'boundary issues'. I suppose it's ok to be as vicious as you like (as vicious as fuck? as cunt? who knows with you people) about lives in the abstract, like Peter Bracken is, but when it gets too personal its verboten, right? Liberals, eh?Then again, you could take a leaf out of bitterweed's book - yeah, that's right, the bitterweed who insults all and sundry until he settles down to recommend a few 'twoons' - and ignore me. But poor old BW is wrong in thinking I'm trying to make a point or get a reaction.It's more simple than that. Work it out if you can - or if you can be bothered. And work it out or not, you can't ignore me, can you? Oh and I woouldn't waste too much time defending Bracken, if I were you. He hates and despises you. He really does. Even more than I hate and despise him*.UTW*Sorry, Pete, didin't mean it. Hope we are still mates!!
Dontcha come back - the unexpurgated version
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this one MsChin.Reminds me of when i were a nipper.Ain,t heard it in years.Nite all
PeterJ - lurvely. Suddenly reminded me of another choon I'd completely forgotten about, for some reason.May the force be with you...Was listening to Heart 106.2 in the car on the way home, which is full of cheeeze on a Friday night.
PeterJHah - that's the best version alright !BB - it's all tosh you know ...
Louisa Marks = top marks MsChin....Lovin the cheap organ sounds...
A final tune from me childhood.
In the right hands, just about any song can be good.
AS I explained last night I don'y drink but used to enjoy this
Excellent Paul. Had forgotten that one as well.Hey Montana - nice post about your grandad earlier. That Richard Thomson is good - amazingly!
More nostalgia from me ravin' days
Change of pace...Mate of mine sent me this... one of his buddies having a jam in his house. Vouice is a bit shite but he can play alright... loving that louisiana styleLaissez les bontemps roulez ! Here's the fess... doing the real deal...MontanaRichard Thompson is out there ... I actually saw that go out live and it was pretty weird watching it in bed on a Sunday morning...
But if we're doing Thompson...
Likin Funky Nassau - thanks !
Given the day - have to post this. Hiroshima mon amour.You buggers are posting too fast to keep up with!
Diesel powered, straight to you.
So sorry, I said 'twoon' when I should have said 'choon'. Not quite with the UT vibe yet.Getting to its heart though, aren't I? Near it anyway, that's for sure. And you all know it, don't you?I know you are wondering who I am and the answer is: one of you that posts here all the time. Can you guess which one? No of course you can't.Enjoy yourselves, kids. I will be watching with interest.
Too many choonez! And now Dexter is on. Will have to stack them up for later. x
And yet another final tune from me.
Nice one Montana... classic.Back laters...
Here we go - more lovers
Ah, BW, if les bontemps sont roulant...
That's my kind of shit Montana !sweeeeet xxx
Got my speakers hanging out the back window while I smoke...
MsChin - u doin the best wooman !!!
PeterJ and other Thompsonophiles: When the spell is broken.
Yeah man, great choonz u is layin down. I'm really getting into this cool shit now. Sorry for my earlier spikiness, I'm all mellowed out now. Hope you can forgive me!!!
Slow dance ?
Another one for the jump-up.
UTWGot any ?
Bitterweed, do you mean balls?
Choons, habib, BW's asking for a choon.
Montana, I went to see Buckwheat Zydeco on the roof of the Ponchartrain, a rather posh hotel in Detroit (if that's not too much of an oxymoron).A quarter of the crowd were music-lovers, and the rest were rich twats from Grosse Pointe, all dressed up and clueless about zydecajun.It was summer, so warm, but as the band began to play a thunderstorm blew up and it started lashing it down. As the band were under a tent, they decided to continue - damn the lightning - as the poshies scurried off the roof and under the overhang or into the doorway.The rest of us were dancing. It was tossing it down, but we didn't care.The music was so good that the debutantes in their posh clothes gradually ventured out to dance with us in the rain. It was impossible not to. They would have completely been unmasked as emotionless zombies had they not.Some of them even ended up on the tabletops.It was a good night.
Evenin' all, lovin' the music. Just catching up with no chance. I feel like a glass collector after a party.
MsChin, I know, I just can't help myself, sometimes...
Hi All UTW--Don't much care who you are, and I don't see anyone defending Bracken, (he'll look after himself, I'm sure)but that comment about his family is too low for me. Good tunes guys, here's an old one, like me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?=wZM8z_jF8Os
Good story thauma.Yes. Music.Habib.I promised myself no partying tonight... but fuggit...MsChinLovin that lover's rock... Here's some cheese. Janet Kaye...
trying to keep up with u lot is a pleasure ! luved this when I was a lad
I promised myself no partying tonight... but fuggit...BW, I swear I am in that mood tonight. It's a bugger to catch up.
Blimey tascia - making me feel old. I remember the very first UB40 choon, Food for Thought.Lyrics have always stuck with me. It predated Live Aid by 5 years, but it could have been written for the cause.And One in Ten - also superb.They got a bit dodgy by the time they were releasing Red Red Wine imo. Shame.
As indeed I did, tascia, as a lad. In between the dying interest in Sabbath and a newly discovered Hendrix...Maybe cos me classmates were big casuals... peer pressure's a strange thing...Some blues... mmm... come on you Blues...
Habib - party on!
Keep 'em coming. Here's one I've been playing a lot
Good night on here this eveningwill this do MsC?
Blues for Bitterweed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLV-qzSgIo&feature=related
BW - can't go the whole blues just yet !Try this: in between
Well, still vaguely on a reggae theme - but one from my rave days too, MsChin.Out of Space
Ruben Blades... Mo Better Blues ?God damn mschin... you have some fine taste there...
Flippin' 'eck tascia. Nice one.
Not ready to sleep,feeling too nostalgic Love this tune
"that comment about his family is too low for me."I'll go much lower than that, and you will see me do that in the next few days. There was saying in the 30s: Liberals always crack under pressure. It's still true.Keep listening to your choonz!I'm watching you. I will always be watching you.
Bit too early for this - but you could always play it later.
Nice Sonny Boy !!!
Ahh, Paul, I like Barry as well.
....by jingo ...
BBAlso liked those kind of raves, especially those deep in the countryside - still do, every so often!
MsChin - u beauty - great track
choonEz, UTW. God you are such a square."I'm watching you. I will always be watching you."OOOOOOOH! I'M SCARED NOW!ffs. :o)I wish Giyus would come back, I really do. He was fun.
And this one
It's not a song but it's still very clever- All the world in a songI think Bitterweed in particular will like it, but can he play it?
MsChinI was in France when the illegal raves were going on here. They just didn't seem to manage it the same way. The nearest we got was the field behind my mate's house, and nobody gave a shit anyway.I am determined I will have an illegal rave in some rich posh farmer's field round here for my funeral though... :D
walk on by
PaulAl Jarreau - sweet. Someone else I haven't listened to for donkey's years. Thanks for that. x
Paul - Barry, like it !
Here's another one to catch before it leaves...
Anyone fancy a bit of R&B?
You start a conversation you can't even finish it.You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything.When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed.Say something once, why say it again?
Am not heavily into Nina but this track gets to me.
Another Great Lady
While we are on the subject of Nina, This has made a comeback of late. Love it.
MsChin. No.Heh.xxxPeterJ - I saw Ernest Ranglin a few years back. Truly great. Played for ages and the fucker wouln't get off the stage. He's only nine hundred and three too...Loving the links up there folksAl Jareau was a big part of the early 80s round one of my mates houses.Checking out Afrika Vukani now...
and another paul...
Like it Paul, but BW has pushed me down here, and I like it !!! Otis Rush blues
Some great images on this one...
Afrika Vukani ... nice !Now ... who gave me these back in May ? Anyone here ??Maybe it was a Charlie Gillett re-run on W.Service...Whatever. Can't be fucked to link, soz, just copy and paste new tabsSome great Desert Jazz and some marvelous rare funk from early 1970s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDC7oMOnmCc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO91BtMIciU Hell Yesaround.