03 August 2010

03/08/10

Victoria Falls - uncredited

People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.
-Dave Barry

154 comments:

  1. Hi Bitterweed

    Thanks for your response.

    I can only hazard a guess the kind of flak that's been tossed at regular CiF posters on waddya as I haven't been on waddya or any other thread for months.

    I don't think anyone was suggesting that you were part of the campaign against some posters, but I don't think there's much doubt that there has been a concerted campaign.

    But I do know that the people above who have been excluded have been excluded for calling into question the broader political remit of the online version of a failing broadsheet.

    Maybe. I've been very critical of many of the Guardian's decisions, and particularly its choice of atl bloggers (a mix of tribal numpties and vested interests), but my problems with the moderation generally stem from the tone of my posts.

    Eloquently. With sincerity and often great wit. And yes, humanity.

    In my experience, it isn't the eloquence that gets me into trouble.... In my view the real failing is an unwillingness of the moderators to cut any slack to long-standing posters. The end result is that a poster who makes thousands of comments a year, and who values their username, is likely to fall foul of the system, while trolls can be back within minutes.

    Personally I don't want to post under any other name. I'm not anonymous - I have years of posting history. "exiledlondoner" means more to other posters than my real name - it's a pen name. The great fault of CIF is that the dice are loaded against serious posters.

    That they have chosen latterly, individually to come on here - or over there - and just get down and dirty with it, says more to me about the endless pointless desperation of trying to get to grips with what could and should be a new media exploration of social change; a new media outlet that has abandoned them online in every much a way as our political elite have destroyed true political expression of the needs of the many.

    This is what I sense as the real problem - a sense of betrayal. Not just betrayal by the Guardian, but a sense that those still there should somehow be expressing their solidarity with those excluded. I know the feeling. During my first enforced exile, I was rather expecting a popular uprising in support of me - actually, nobody noticed I was gone...

    Collateral damage. Yes. But I think you'll find most of the worst chunks taken have been internecine... Those on the sidelines aren't engaged in political discourse, but seem to just be, well... kidding about it....mocking it...

    Firstly, I don't think that's fair - ignoring it maybe, but mocking? No.

    Secondly, do we have a right not to be mocked? Are we so important (or up are own arses?), that we can demand awed respect for our pearls of wisdom?

    There's an element of the Judean Popular Front here. The enemy isn't the Romans (or the Guardian, or the Tories) - the real enemy are those who stray from strict othodoxy, or who fail to show the 'leaders' sufficient respect.

    Sorry, but reading some of the pompous bollocks here, one would think that the fight for freedom and justice in the world is being carried by two or three people alone, and everyone else has a duty to fall into line behind them.

    Hope that goes by some way of explanation for a row that I haven't been in but on behalf of a few individuals I'd be proud to call up in a real battle.

    But this isn't a real battle - it's an internet talk board. It's a forum for expressing opinions. That's opinions that coincide, or, perish the thought, don't coincide, with yours. The moment everyone starts agreeing, I'm off.

    Lets face it - there are many real battles ahead.

    There always are. There's nothing new there.

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  2. Leni, from last night:

    Perhaps something rather cunning and clever which automatically added some *nuance* once in a while might be good.

    Ah, nuance. I suspect that some people think that nuance is for wusses.

    exiled, about 15 minutes ago:

    Sorry, but reading some of the pompous bollocks here, one would think that the fight for freedom and justice in the world is being carried by two or three people alone, and everyone else has a duty to fall into line behind them.

    Made I giggle.

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  3. Bonjour exiled !
    What were you 'done' for, was it just criticising the G too strongly ?
    Were you not among those asking for an article on the Roms , if so with who else ?

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  4. morning all!
    welcome KT - good post last night, the 'pub' thing is the reason I started posting on Cif (then Waddya, then UT!) as I'm in a similarish position - away from the old 'gang' and, particularly at the beginning, missing it a bit. And then I got sucked in...hehehehehehe.
    and good from montana on compassion, too. was thinking the same as leni / BB / shaz on the thread about the CRS. am going to do some digging into local sources and will put something up on UT2.

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  5. Exiled
    Thanks for your reply, which I serioulsy don't expect to get back to again today through, other commitments. It's a considered repsonse, and I don't dispute things turned pretty ugly here, for a while thanks larghely to more than a couple of people just getting lashed and posting "pompous bollocks". I wouldn't judge their collective output over the years on that display. I would judge some of the asinine arsewits who came here for a while, didn't like all the complaining about moderation over there, got out of their depth, fucked off back over there - I would judge them personally and probably quite accurately from any given fourteen word post they could toss off at any given moment. Because that's pretty much all they are. Bored people with no fixed view on anything but an excessive idea of entitlement and a big mouth. Not that they were necessarily the ones here over the weekend, but they typify what i'm talking about.

    Of course it's not a "real battle" - it's only a talk board. Which we can take or leave or come and go as readily as we pick up the tv remote control. But I have had my mind chaged and attitudes modified on several occasions by engaging with people here, on CiF and elsewhere over the years. You could say it's a battle for hearts and minds. Perhaps I meant it in that respect a whole lot more than in some tragic-romantic-heroic depiction of manning the barricades or chucking petrol bombs.

    I often liked your posts when I saw them latterly, I wouldn't judge you on the basis of a late night drunken row, and I wasn't in the heat of things, so I'll probably have little more to add than this. Thanks again for that reply.

    See you around.

    ReplyDelete
  6. From 01/08/10
    Hank The Left will never be revived until it remembers that its roots lie in class and economics.

    Spot on!

    Scherf Well, Hank, what can I say? I'm a socialist, but not really a Marxist. I don't really believe in any 'isms because none of them have the complete solution, but I believe in parts of various 'isms. I'm sceptical of anyone who slavishly follows any party line

    Scherf being a Marxist does not mean following a party line – it means using Marxist method to analyse events on the basis of ‘class and economics’ as Hank says. Marxism is not a dogma it’s a way of looking at the world. It’s the only one that makes sense to me.

    From Yesterday

    Paul – thanks for the apology, I don’t know your age but perhaps you are too young to remember a time when being female was considered to be a pretty insulting condition. For me calling a man a woman isn’t an insult (as it was so often intended to be) its just inaccurate!

    Traditionally a large number of negative characteristics have been ascribed to women – untruthful (that’s alive and well on any Cif rape thread) a temptress with a dangerous sexuality that must be controlled, unable to keep secrets etc, etc.

    Similar horrid libels have been ascribed to Jews, blacks (add any other marginalized group you care to mention).

    Divide and rule eh! Don’tcha just love it?

    Montana
    …compassion is essential to being a socialist.

    Couldn’t agree more!

    A.S. Neil the educational reformer said – there are two kinds of socialist – those who hate the rich and those who love the poor

    I hate what so many of the rich do (mainly to mauntain their riches by keping the rest of us poor) but it is compassion for their victims(which to a greater or lesser extent includes me) that focuses my efforts. Socialism is the struggle to make a better world or its nothing

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  7. Anne - Spot on. The quote you give from Neil is interesting to me in light of an article I read yesterday. It made my blood boil!

    My friend paid for me a years subscription to a magazine called Psychologies for my birthday last year. And in this issue is an article about class envy. The article basically goes on to say that hatred of Cameron and Clegg is all based in deep envy - we just want what they want. It then goes on to say that this in unhealthy and we should use admiration rather than envy as that way we can work towards getting what it is they have that we want.

    Right of course so by 'admiring' Clegg I can just be born with a silver spoon in my mouth, mix with the right people in the right place at the right time and fall into one highly paid powerbroker job aftre another can I? And then become a duplicitous little shit.

    These are a couple of hightlights: ''Those who cant help disliking the New Posh claim it is moral yet surely it is nothing more than envy.'' Or. ''After all is being well-educated such a crime, particularly when you want to govern the country?'

    And my favourite bit was this from a student who was financially struggling but living in halls with three upper class girlies who had new cars from daddy etc, etc. ''I began to realise that what I truly envied was not their material wealth but the fact that they appeared so blissfully free, unaware of other people's suffering.''

    I mean for fooks sake! So we should all be aspiring to not care about others suffering should we? To be isolated in our own little well off worlds.

    And what a great trick eh? If you hate Cameron and Clegg etc you are just jealous.

    It stinks - big time.

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  8. Thanks for your reply, which I serioulsy don't expect to get back to again today through, other commitments. It's a considered repsonse, and I don't dispute things turned pretty ugly here, for a while thanks larghely to more than a couple of people just getting lashed and posting "pompous bollocks".

    Ugly? In an internet sort of way I suppose. I enjoy posting and debating, and I don't get too bothered when things get heated, just so long as it's real heat and not just bullying.

    Sometimes I think we all need to remember that this isn't the real world, and not take ourselves too seriously. If someone calls me and offers me a drink or a meal, the computer goes off - if I thought I was saving the world, I might be tempted to stay.

    I wouldn't judge their collective output over the years on that display. I would judge some of the asinine arsewits who came here for a while, didn't like all the complaining about moderation over there, got out of their depth, fucked off back over there - I would judge them personally and probably quite accurately from any given fourteen word post they could toss off at any given moment. Because that's pretty much all they are. Bored people with no fixed view on anything but an excessive idea of entitlement and a big mouth. Not that they were necessarily the ones here over the weekend, but they typify what i'm talking about.

    leaving aside those you're referring to - I've only been here for a day - why does it have to be here or CIF? I'll go back, if and when they let me - for all its many faults, CIF is still the best at what it does. Hopefully I'll also stick around here - it offers something different (not least more freedom), and a lot of people I've got time for post here.

    I've got plenty of issues with CIF about moderation - the only article I offered CIF for publication was on the subject - but I think it's important to realise what CIF really is. It's a forum. CIF puts up articles and allows comments. What those articles are is almost secondary - the forum is made by the posters, not the editors.

    Of course it's not a "real battle" - it's only a talk board. Which we can take or leave or come and go as readily as we pick up the tv remote control. But I have had my mind chaged and attitudes modified on several occasions by engaging with people here, on CiF and elsewhere over the years. You could say it's a battle for hearts and minds. Perhaps I meant it in that respect a whole lot more than in some tragic-romantic-heroic depiction of manning the barricades or chucking petrol bombs.

    Me too - my views are always being shaped and influenced by things I read. In an ideal world CIF would be an anarchistic free for all, but the beancounters have decided that anarchy can be a bit scary for the non-committed. Why people with no opinions want to post is beyond me, but that's what they're trying to encourage - hence the moderation policy.

    We can kick all we like, but it is their website. It upsets me to see them ruining it, but that's their perogative.

    I often liked your posts when I saw them latterly, I wouldn't judge you on the basis of a late night drunken row, and I wasn't in the heat of things, so I'll probably have little more to add than this.

    I wasn't actually drunk, and it wasn't my row - I came in after it had largely blown over.

    It's inevitable that with the number of ex-CIF posters here, it's going to be a major topic of debate - that's one of the attractions, given the Stalinist response to any mention of moderation on CIF itself.

    All I'm asking for is that any anger should be directed where it's deserved, rather than at CIF posters.

    Thanks again for that reply.

    You too. Look after yourself.

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  9. Hi Frog

    What were you 'done' for, was it just criticising the G too strongly ?

    I'm still waiting for a reply from the mods, but it was for a post on the Roma thread that suggested that a certain poster might be a "fucking idiot", "racist scum", and as "thick as pig shit", and that the mods were leaving up openly racist posts, while deleting replies to them.

    Nothing really....

    Were you not among those asking for an article on the Roms , if so with who else ?

    I was. I also did qualify my request by suggesting that such a thread might turn into a troll-fest for racists...

    What I didn't realise was that the CIF mods would allow levels of racist demonisation that would be unthinkable against any other ethnic group. So I made a conscious decision to do the mods' job for them - I didn't think it was right that any Roma reading the thread should come away thinking that describing them all as thieves, scroungers and the like was acceptable.

    I even made a point of quoting the offending posts, just so their removal would also remove my responses. There's considerate for you....

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  10. Got a little something on the La Courneuve evictions - is it OK to put up on UT2? Don't want to displace the 'test thread' for the new functionality...

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  11. have put it up - the test thread is there in the menu...

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  12. new thread up on "the Roma problem" in France, if anyone not currently banned / in premod / lacking the will to do this again wants to chip in...

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  13. Exiled thanks for reply as missed that thread , perhaps a good sign I was busy elsewhere :)
    Yet another on Disability today is encouraging so some of the Gdn staff are getting it right .

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  14. Morning Philippa,

    Yes I've seen it....

    ...maybe I'll give it a miss.

    One of the bizarre things about being in pre-mod is how otherwise perfectly acceptable posts are moderated away - even the mind-numbingly uncontroversial...

    I think the chances of anything I want to say making it onto the thread are somewhere between nil and a permanant ban.

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  15. Dear God - I think I'd better keep away from the new Roma thread....

    "Gigalo" writes...

    "The Roma don't help their own cause much, though, do they?"... and follows it with a report about two Roma who've been jailed for organising child beggers and child abuse.

    Can you imagine introducing a report on Bernie Madoff's crimes with "The Jews don't help their own cause much, though, do they?", or of some gang shooting with "Blacks don't help their own cause much, though, do they?"......

    I'm afraid the CIF mods are in sore need of some basic instruction on race awareness... or common sense....

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  16. morning all

    Hello exiled - good to see you over here.

    re the empire discussion the other day. An abridged version of this essay by Orwell has just been read on R4. Here's the full length version. It's rather brilliant.

    Shooting an elephant

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  17. Montana

    The alleged/advertised benefits of the new system you invited us to play with over on UT2 include:

    Moderation/Blacklisting
    "IntenseDebate offers some truly hardcore moderation options. Customize your settings to moderate by keywords, number of links, commenter email, and/or IP addresses."

    and

    Reputation Points & Comment Voting

    "Your readers will start to build their commenter reputations when they create an IntenseDebate account. Their reputation score is based on the quantity, and more importantly the quality, of the comments they've made across all sites with IntenseDebate. Bring the quality comments to the forefront"

    As I think back over the history of the development of this great site..................I wonder if the above facilities would have made it better or even more difficult to get where we are today.

    Moderation is such an issue for us all at UT any whiff/suggestion that commenting could be controlled/manipulated would hurt and I suispect it would damage our much loved UT site.

    There are spell check options without recourse to a new system and smileys can if I recall a past conversation with a UT friend be incorporated anyway. Those despearte to have video links could always upload to youtube and then link from there.....

    Seems to me not a lot to gain and a hell of a lot to loose but as I say I'm still thinking about it.

    I noted that KT signed on here yesterday under the anonymous moniker (@ 21:47) I thought that after last years debacle with the anon's you'd very sensibly found a way to stop it being used here??

    I'm still thinking about it but I'm far from convinced it's a wise move. Your personal reputation and integrity is highly regarded by me and many others here, be careful my dear young miss.

    (I should add that I don't give a fuck who your internet beau is/was/maybe I still adore you..xx)

    Hello & Welcome to UT KT/exiled/tascia/ I join with the others in hoping you enjoy the place.

    KT - I, and I guess some others, would be interested to know how you managed to sign in here using the anon label - it's not available in my comment box??

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  18. Sheff - glad you weren't too discomforted yesterday.

    For me - some still unresolved questions about whether or not a bloke in a white coat is going to stick a long fancy needle (with a grasper on the end) up me arse and take a prostate biopsy to see if I have cock canker. Ah the pleasures of age...

    La Rit I was sorry to read your news - if you make it the Northants get together in late Sept I'll buy you a beer if you read me/us a poem and two if you sing to me/us...

    ReplyDelete
  19. Latest from council newsletter;

    The new UK Government committed to making £6 billion savings in 2010/11. The required
    contribution to this from Scottish Borders Council is £2.5 million in this financial year.
    • The Council’s Executive has recently approved a report which outlines detailed proposals
    for how these savings will be achieved.
    • Seven areas have been identified where savings can be made without impacting on front
    line services. These are:
    (1) Recruitment into posts which are not business critical - £300,000
    (2) Elected member concordat commitments not yet committed - £593,000
    (3) The commissioning of external consultants - £770,000
    (4) Supplies and services - £168,000
    (5) Business travel - £30,000
    (6) Attendance at conferences - £22,000
    (7) Non-contractual overtime - £570,000.
    • The share for each department is: Chief Executive’s - £35,000; Concordat - £593,000;
    Education - £793,000; Planning - £21,000; Resources - £116,000; Social Work - £637,000;
    Technical Services - £259,000.



    So.. That'll be my coleague or me, or more likely the whole shooting match. From tax payer to benefit scrounger, here I come...

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  20. KT here, Esmelia Sniff is the name of a book character for whom I set up a blog last year. Deano, to answer your question the anon option was available last night but isn't today, hence Esmelia which is the only blog account I have. If there's another way to log on I'm too shit at IT to use it.

    So, this is Untrusted, eh? I like what you've done with the place. Thanks to Montana, shaz, jenn, Paul etc, for the welcome. And thanks to exiled for putting points over much better than I could.

    Bitterweed, I remember you. Always had a great deal of respect for you on CiF. Funny too as I recall. Very funny. Bit busy to respond in full, but I've got no beef with you or anyone else questioning the management of CiF.

    Cheers
    KT

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  21. For me - some still unresolved questions about whether or not a bloke in a white coat is going to stick a long fancy needle (with a grasper on the end) up me arse and take a prostate biopsy

    Do it Deano. Two reasons - you're probably in the the clear and it would be good to be certain about that, one less thing to stress about. If you're not - then it's even more important to have it done.

    Turm - there doesn't seem to be any good news for us plebs these days. I hope you find something soon.

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  22. Hello KT - welcome to the UT.

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  23. exiled,

    I'm being memory holed on the Roma thread for taking the piss out of racists. Go Graun.....

    Sheff,

    good luck with the health situation and thanks for that Orwell article.

    Alisdair,

    I saw your post last night regarding Imperialism resources. I would very much like to see ahem what you have. Let me know when you're on line and I'll post my email for you to send to me. Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hi Sheffpixie,

    I love the Orwell piece - I think I prefer his short essays to his novels. I recently read his wartime essays - pure propaganda, but beautifully written propaganda.

    Hi deano,

    Cheers.

    Re the test - if it ain't broke, why fix it?

    Personally I would regard moderation, automatic ranking of comments, recommend buttons, and smileys, all as retrograde steps.

    People have eyes and brains - they can decide for themselves what comments are bad, good, worth reading or funny. They don't need to be told.

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  25. 13thDuke,

    I'm being memory holed on the Roma thread for taking the piss out of racists. Go Graun.....

    You're being pre-modded too?

    I tried to post a polite question as to whether similar posts would be allowed about other ethnic groups, but it hasn't made it through pre-mod.

    What the fuck are they playing at? Angling for the Stormfront crowd? Has Rusbridger had his lawnmower nicked?

    Hi KT

    Esmelia Sniff????

    I would say welcome, but as I've been here only about an hour longer than you, that's a bit presumptious...

    Does Esmelia have an avatar? (shudders)

    ReplyDelete
  26. exiled,

    not pre-modded. I put three posts on the thread so far, when I looked back, only one remains. The other two have been wiped, no 'removed by moderator' message.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Duke, you can e-mail me direct, I think. If you click on my picture, you should see a profile.Most of my stuff is hard copy (and as luck would have it I'm moving house), but I can give you titles etc fairly soon, and maybe get the odd (slimmer) item in the post. .

    ReplyDelete
  28. 13thDuke

    not pre-modded. I put three posts on the thread so far, when I looked back, only one remains. The other two have been wiped, no 'removed by moderator' message.

    Odd that... All the racist filth, including from our friend Gigolo, seems to still be there...

    It's all rather strange...

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  29. Just having a lovely time reading some more Orwell essays. Great site.

    Why socialists don't believe in fun - Utopia and Socialism

    ReplyDelete
  30. Afternoon all

    I know i,m stating the bleedin' obvious here but Julian Glover really is a major league tosspot.Fuck knows what Matt P sees in him.If i were gay i'd hope i'd have better taste.He must have a big dick instead of just being one.

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  31. Just had a look at the Roma thread - it's a cesspit. AllyF has nailed gigolo thankfully and olching is in there too. I'm staying away as I would like a peaceful day and value my blood pressure.

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  32. KT on UT, woot! : ) Good to see exiled too, hope you hang around when the pre mod is lifted..

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  33. am trying to find french coverage of the 'Roma question' but am hamstrung by not knowing the terminology. at the moment am just finding football reports. frog2 / Ms Sniff / other francophones present - what is the usual (press) term for Roma over here?

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  34. Just had a look at the Roma thread - it's a cesspit. AllyF has nailed gigolo thankfully and olching is in there too. I'm staying away as I would like a peaceful day and value my blood pressure.

    Not very edifying, is it?

    It seems that the mods are so busy zapping anyone who calls someone a "racist twat" or similar, they've no time to zap the racist twats...

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  35. turminderxuss

    I hope to, but if CIF are expecting a grovelling apology in exchange for a return of my posting rights, it ain't going to happen.

    If I could post on today's Roma thread, I'd be saying exactly the same thing.

    I think MiddleEnglandLefty might be joining me on the naughty seat pretty soon - I think that it's the same idiot mod as the other day (surely there can't be two mods this bad?)

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  36. KT

    Esmelia Sniff? LOL.What is it with men masquerading as women on the net?Although in all fairness i may well be a woman masquerading as a man.Anyway it,s good to see you and i hope you become aa regular poster here.And try and get the lovely Hermione to come over as well.:-)

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  37. Should it be an issue with anyone i am a bloke and my real name is Paul:-)

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  38. I'm an SC drone and my real name is TurminderSinghAhluwalliaXuss! ; )

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  39. Sick buckets at the ready folks. Just been out to get the paper. Bought a groan (I know...I know... but it's an old addiction). In the G2 section they have a full page piece by His Saintliness, T Blair, "To be religiously illitereate is foolish." It starts:

    "Let me show you how my faith inspires me. This was the challenge that my Faith Foundation recently set young people from across the world in our first film competition, Faith Shorts....."

    Just thought I'd share that with you but don't worry I won't link to it.

    PS: If anyone has a mind, some humorous riffs on the concept of 'faith shorts' would dilute the ickyness a bit.

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  40. sheff - was wondering about 'faith shorts' even before finishing your post! bit like mormon chastity underwear?

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  41. Snap Philippa : ) I heard the Druze wear baggy trews because they belive the coming messiah will be born to a man.. Are TBs faith shorts something of that ilk?

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  42. I got deleted on Waddya for mentioning that exiled had been pre modded, bloody idiots.

    And bloody SteveHill is at it again linking to the Daily Mail to support his benefit cutting lust, he is one strange little man.

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  43. Well if there were such a garment as 'faith shorts' in any of the numerous Blair households you can bet Cherie would have got them on the cheap.

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  44. @Philippa

    Try "les gens du voyage", "rom" and especially "tzigane".

    @turminder

    Something familiar... Is your monicker Iain M. Banks related?

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  45. And indeed the katchera, 4th of the 5 Ks of sikhism..

    4) Kachera (specially designed cotton underwear):

    Naturally comfortable and dignified attire reflective of modesty and high moral character.


    You got it Spike, i'm the #ahem# cordless massager drone from Matter..

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  46. /Parking/

    BPires

    [unbanned:] "Shouldn't that be; 'It makes me feel like I'm being called a liar for going to the doctors instead of putting up with a normal body'?"

    You're obviously a man, and a deeply stupid one at that.

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  47. That is an amazing thread isn't it Thauma it is truly fantastic how many men are experts in female hormone problems, I don't think I need to keep seeing my Dr about my personal problems I just need to ask some bloke in the bus stop about them from now on.

    There are some very good posts from Arec Baldwin on the benefits thread by the way including a link to a film trailer for the man who was horribly murdered over several years with a spoon. It made me laugh anyway.

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  48. I was interested to read the comments some people here made yesterday about British manufacturing.For it may come as a surprise to some people to know that the UK is still the world's 6th largest manufacturing nation.Trouble is that our manufacturing base in still in relative decline.A phenomenon that has really been in existance since the UK ceased to have a captive market with it,s Empire.And exacerbated by the historical failure of UK financial institutions to take the long term view when it comes to investing in UK manufacturing companies.Consequently a growing proportion of manufacturing companies in this country are foreign-owned.Companies who also bring with them a different set of work practices including no strike and single union deals.For another historical problem that has blighted cash starved UK manufacturing companies has been the often adversorial labour relations that have existed between poor quality management and sometimes unreasonable trade unions.

    One of the many many things i will never forgive New Labour for is their total failure to support manufacturing between 1997-2010.For the rebuilding of the UK manufacturing base could IMO be a key factor in the rebuilding of working class communities all over the country.For manufacturing generates reasonably well paid full time employment unlike the often poorly paid service sector employment which hass replaced so many of the lost manufacturing jobs.Obviously there is a debate to be had on the role the government should be playing in rebuilding the UK manufacturing base-consisting of both Britsh and Foreign companies.And of course how much can be realistically achieved in the global economy.It is however a debate that i feel the factionalised LEFT has largely failed to address.

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  49. Hi Spike,

    I see you've been Brackened!

    COMPETITION TIME

    Q. WHAT COMMENT PROVOKED THE FOLLOWING RESPONSE FROM PETER BRACKEN?

    "If only your beloved Milosevic were not pushing up the daisies, eh BTTP; he could be back there dishing out the genocidal justice you approve of."

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  50. ANSWER.

    "I'd once again like to point out that the Roma in Kosovo, children and grandchildren of Holocaust victims, are being slaughtered and ethnically cleansed with the complicity of NATO."

    I will accept "anything - it doesn't really matter to Peter what the point was" as a valid answer...

    Peter Bracken is certainly a one off - he's a sort of one man posting vendetta, in which the actual words of his opponent are never allowed to get in the way of his response.

    If Nick Cohen is the muppet king of agent provocateurs (copyright Guppy), then Peter Bracken is a sort of muppet major....

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  51. muppet king of agent provocateurs ... keep 'em coming!

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  53. Hi Shaz,

    I can't reply on waddya at the moment, but the two are not mutually exclusive - I may well have been sin-binned for breaking community standards by shouting at racists....

    Just as soon as anyone bothers to tell me, I'll let you know.

    It's just a shame that they don't enforce the community standards on racist trolling with the same enthusiasm... They could have a field day on the Roma thread....

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  54. Pau; - For the rebuilding of the UK manufacturing base could IMO be a key factor in the rebuilding of working class communities all over the country

    Suspect that that is precisely why he didn't do it! Rebuilding working class communities is the last thing Blair and NULabour wanted to do. That would strengthen the class and promote solidarity in the very class the Labour Party was founded to represent!

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  55. Sorry that should be Paul! Always hitting the semi colon instead of L.

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  56. @exiled

    Thanks for the heads-up on that one. Now answered.

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  57. I suspect the real reason for New Labour's contempt for manufacturing industry as base for the national economy stems from the sort of people who make up New Labour.

    While 50 years ago Labour would have included ex-miners, ex-steelworkers and ex-factory hands in its highest positions, today they are almost entirely professional politicians.

    While working men tried to create a society fit for working men, New Labour spivs have created a society fit for spivs.

    To the likes of Blair, Byers, Miliband and Purnell, getting your hands dirty to earn a living would be unthinkable - they've simply transferred that view to the nation. Britain was to become a nation of service industries, but with nothing productive to service...

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  58. But PB's an intellectual, exiled....mind on a higher plane and all that...must see things we ordinary mortals are blind to.


    Found this on the Aditya Chakraborrty thread

    The coming collapse of the middle class - Prof Elizabeth Warren

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  60. Anne-Spot on.Which makes the task ahead to rebuild the political base necessary to then rebuild the manufacturing base so depressing.In fact tbh at times i feel it,s insurmountable.Plus the politically correct minefield that often stymies any attempt to have an open and honest discussion about some of the issues that also divide so many working class communities.

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  62. Hi Sheffpixie,

    But PB's an intellectual, exiled....mind on a higher plane and all that...must see things we ordinary mortals are blind to.

    For some reason, every time Peter Bracken goes into one of his 'intellectual' diatribes, this flashes across my mind.....

    Otto Bracken

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  63. I've neither called you stupid nor implied you're stupid, exiled.

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  64. Exiled
    Yes, I see how you could inpterpret that as meaning you personally were howling like a drunk sailor in a gale. You weren't.

    I think sometimes there's a fine line between giving a poster a thorough fisking and an outright kicking; the mods cannot tell the difference as we know.

    KT
    Thank you. I often pretty quickly got fed up with the poor standards of, well, everything on CiF just ended up taking the piss; glad it was at least ammusing !

    Work calls again - see ya later.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Faith Shorts ?

    Can just see him strutting around in the Papal Action Pants Blair received from the Vatican for services rendered

    One for Steve Bell maybe...

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  66. Peter,

    I've neither called you stupid nor implied you're stupid, exiled.

    No it's much worse than that - you've attributed all sorts of views and motivations to me which I've never held or expressed.

    You're so caught up in the brilliance of your theories about the decent and deluded left, you never stop to think whether they apply to your target or not. We all have to fit into to your simplistic binary theory - otherwise it wouldn't work.....

    Today you've made a single comment on the Roma thread - you haven't addressed any of the issues, or even addressed any of the BTL comments. All you've done is seen Spike's post (which mentions the former Yugoslavia), and taken that as a cue to try to restart an old vendetta. It's inane, and shows total disregard for the serious issue being discussed.

    The point of the Otto clip isn't that you're stupid - you're not - it's that you have such unshakable belief in your intellectual superiority, you sometimes act like a fucking half-wit.

    I do try to engage with what you write, and I don't join in the guilt by association attacks that are sometimes made against you, but debating with you is like debating with a brick wall - you're only interested in trying to fit people into the boxes you've made for them.

    Maybe you should read what people write?

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  67. exiled:

    I do try to engage with what you write...

    What, you mean with comments like this?

    If Nick Cohen is the muppet king of agent provocateurs (copyright Guppy), then Peter Bracken is a sort of muppet major....

    Also, it's the second time you've linked to that clip from a Fish Call Wanda (why would someone bother with shit like that?), and on the first occasion you know full it was a mindless piece of puerile sabotage. Which doesn't bother me in the slightest, but spare me the sanctimony, eh?

    And as for my response to Spike today, it's clear to anyone with a modicum of knowledge of Kosovo's recent history that I'm having a go at his outrageous claim that NATO is engaged - or, what was his weasel word? complicit - in ethnic cleansing.

    This doesn't amount to a personal vendetta, as you call it: it amounts to an attack on his vicious historical revisionism.

    Oddly, that aspect of Spike's post got beneath your radar for fair-minded, honest comment.

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  68. Bitterweed

    ''Papal Action Pants?''

    I think if they came from the Vatican it would read 'No Action Pants'.

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  69. exiled I think you are basically wasting your time.

    I have lost count of the number of people who have said much the same thing to Peter, sometimes nicely sometimes with a few swear words thrown in and he always comes by with some slippery little comment that avoids the issue completely.

    I have come to the conclusion that he is simply incapable of any kind of self analysis and just cannot ever admit that he might be even slightly wrong about anything.

    Plus he is boring.

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  70. Peter,

    What, you mean with comments like this?

    "If Nick Cohen is the muppet king of agent provocateurs (copyright Guppy), then Peter Bracken is a sort of muppet major...."

    That's called "laughing at" - you can't really expect to indulge in mindless abuse, and not get a bit back.

    The fact is that I have tried to engage with you regularly, and rather than reply to the points I make, you tell me what "people like me" are wrong about.....

    Also, it's the second time you've linked to that clip from a Fish Call Wanda (why would someone bother with shit like that?), and on the first occasion you know full it was a mindless piece of puerile sabotage.

    Sabotage? For you Peter, the war is over - this is civvy street...

    Which doesn't bother me in the slightest, but spare me the sanctimony, eh?

    Well if it doesn't bother you at all, why are we talking about it? We could be discussing something important....

    And as for my response to Spike today, it's clear to anyone with a modicum of knowledge of Kosovo's recent history that I'm having a go at his outrageous claim that NATO is engaged - or, what was his weasel word? complicit - in ethnic cleansing.

    I don't think Spike was using weasel words - he openly accused Kosovan forces of ethnic cleansing, and NATO of turning a blind eye to it.

    If that's an outrageous claim, then why didn't you challenge it, rather than throwing some mud about his "beloved Milosovic"?

    For a military man, you're rather shy when it comes to frontal assaults - everything has to be by the most oblique route possible. Can't you deal with anything as it comes?

    This doesn't amount to a personal vendetta, as you call it: it amounts to an attack on his vicious historical revisionism.

    No it doesn't. You wrote nothing that challenged his assertion - all you did was try to smear him by claiming he supported Milosovic.

    Oddly, that aspect of Spike's post got beneath your radar for fair-minded, honest comment.

    Currently, everything is getting beneath my radar. Why should Spike's comment have made a blip? Balkan country is engaged in moves to drive out Roma population? NATO accused of ignoring Kosovo abuses?

    I don't actually know the truth, but it isn't wildly unlikely. You claim to know the truth, but you said nothing - the opportunity to smear an old foe was seemingly to good to miss....

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  71. @Bracken

    NATO occupies a region of Yugoslavia and, in that territory under its control, hundreds of thousands of Serbs and Roma are ethnically cleansed. What part of "complicit" don't you understand, you fucking ludricously pompous ignoramus?

    And you call others revisionists? Reading you, David Irving would wince and say, "Ooh, hold on, let's not get carried away now".

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  72. @Deano:

    I resent the fuck out of the implication that you've made.

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  73. Jennifera,

    exiled I think you are basically wasting your time.

    Isn't that why we're all here?

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  74. Montana,

    I resent the fuck out of the implication that you've made.

    I don't think deano was suggesting that you would use the moderation function so much as the users of the site can be a bit pavlovian when the word 'moderation' is mentioned.

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  75. I have come to the conclusion that he is simply incapable of any kind of self analysis and just cannot ever admit that he might be even slightly wrong about anything.

    The sheer hubris of this spittle is gobsmacking. I could equally accuse you, jennifera, of never conceding ground to me. But I wouldn't dream of doing that - because, for all the bombast of my views, I understand they are a personal outlook, for others to dismiss, dump on or accept as they see fit. That's the sum of it.

    And if I don't cosy up to fellow posters it's because, too, I bridle at the delusional, self-serving affirmation of cliques.

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  76. Peter,

    Rather than ranting on about gobsmackingly hubristic spittle (?), shouldn't you be addressing Spike's points about NATO in Kosovo?

    It is after all the reason you've given for posting on the Roma thread, and many posts later, I'm still none the wiser as to why you think his claims are outrageous....

    ..but if you's rather avoid the point, and talk about the delusional, self-serving affirmation of cliques instead, I'm sure we'll all understand....

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  77. Montana - whatever it was that I said that caused offence please accept my apology. It was never my intent to cause offence.

    My view was very much as exiled thought it to be above.

    As I said:
    "....Your personal reputation and integrity is highly regarded by me and many others here..."

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  78. Being 'in the Army' covers a multitude of possibilities from what used to be called the Pay Corps or the RAEC ( teachers ! ) , to the sharper end of footsloggers and gunners etc.

    Repost from waddya, but a needed reminder it seems.

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  79. Shit that story on UT2 has left me feeling pretty ill... what utter fucking bastards.

    Typical scumbag postings on CiF too... their justifications are so patently fucking weak and sophistic.

    Jesus.

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  80. Hubristically bombasticated spittle , bloody 'ell ! Looks like we're working ourselves up for some more immortal brackenisation of the language.

    Just wanted to add that my very first nickname for him was Peter Bombast, and now he actually seems proud of being bombastic. Weird !

    The frog princess has just finished her third twelve-hour day in four days ( monday was off ), this was 7 to 7 , looking after multihandicapped where she lives, sixty miles away.

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  81. She's on her way so panic stations for dishes and tidying up ! A record early NN to all . XX XX

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  82. Bitterweed

    There,s a film that,s been released in France called 'Le Rafle' dealing with 'Operation Spring Wind' .This was the name given to the rounding up of foreign born Jews in France in 1942 for deportation to Auschwitz.And whilst i know we,re obviously not comparing like with like here the recent events in France made me think about what happened in France back in 1942.And the willingness of the French Police-with the support of most French people-to 'remove' those they don,t consider to be French.

    As a postcript it should be remembered that the French police-supported by most French people-were far less willing to satisfy Nazi demands to deport those Jews who were considered to be French.

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  83. That should read 'La Rafle'.

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  84. Just a thought re the Roma thread - may be muddling things up but I believe more than one regular poster on Waddya is of Roma extraction - whether or not they are one of the UT-ers, don't know. Anyway. thing is - the community guidelines refer to potentially libellous / actionable remarks.

    am just thinking that they are cheerfully zapping people telling the racist trolls to fuck off because they are using the word 'fuck'. which is kinda obvious. if someone contacted them saying that they were Roma, and felt that letting the racism stay up constituted the G condoning the sentiments in those posts, and therefore that it was equivalent to the G saying them (BB - is that what they're worried about?), and that the statements looked actionable, well...

    just a thought.

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  85. It is only relatively recently that the French have accepted full responsibility for the Vichy government's complicity in sending Jews to their deaths.

    My ex-bf's gran worked as Mitterrand's secretary after the war in the department that dealt with people returning from concentration camps and forced french workers. After she died and we cleaned out her house, we came across a carbon copy of an account she had typed up, given by a Doctor and communist sympathiser who had survived one of the camps - I can't remember which.

    His testimony must have been considered valuable in particular because he was a doctor. I am not going to recount the things we read in that account, but I was unable to sleep for almost a week afterwards.

    Which is why I get so upset when I see the same populist hatred of another faith group almost becoming normal now in Europe. I don't care how many people tell me that they are "not like us" - those are the exact sentiments used to describe why it was ok to treat "sub-human" Jews in the way they did.

    Another good film to watch - although it is about 5 hours long - is Shoah, directed by Claude Lanzmann

    Gruelling stuff, but a grim reminder that we should never again allow ourselves to carry out such horrific crimes, no matter who tells us that it is acceptable to do so.

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  86. Philippa

    Great article on UT2, btw - thanks for that. I kept hitting a paywall on Libe, which is bloody annoying.

    I am astounded at the number of racist comments, or those condoning violence against a racial group, that are allowed to stand on CiF. What the fuck to they think they are doing?

    I am getting seriously worried now - especially when I see the numbers of recommends on Nabila's piece about Le Courneuve for the "send them all home" cunts.

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  87. Hi Philippa,

    Just a thought re the Roma thread - may be muddling things up but I believe more than one regular poster on Waddya is of Roma extraction - whether or not they are one of the UT-ers, don't know. Anyway. thing is - the community guidelines refer to potentially libellous / actionable remarks.

    There are several regular Roma posters on CIF, and yes, one is a regular Waddya poster, but I doubt if the Guardian has much to worry about. When you see the filth thrown at Roma by the tabloids, it's pretty clear that inciting hatred against Roma is pretty safe legally.

    What has shocked me has been the way the Guardian has left up comments which would clearly have been removed, had they been against any other ethnic group, while ruthlessly purging any opposition to those comments.

    I'm a bit of a free-speech extremist - I would prefer than anything that isn't legally problematic remained up - but the idea that openly racist views can remain, while naughty words are deleted, is as infantile as it's offensive.

    Not really been CIF's greatest hour, has it?

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  88. am a little freaked out on the UT2 by yourr comment appearing in yellow, which then fades gradually.... looks like a countdown. in pastel.

    hehehehe.

    anyway.

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  89. Paul

    Thing is, though, it is easy to criticise the French for the way they behaved in WW2 because we have never been in the situation that they were in at the time.

    But imagine for a moment that the coalition decided tomorrow that Muslims were a danger to us all and, as a result, in order to easily identify them, they would have to wear a green crescent on their clothing; imagine that those who were deemed to be a "danger" were rounded up and herded into camps; imagine that anyone standing up for their rights were deemed to be "potential terrorists" also and rounded up and sent to the same camps. What percentage of the British population - straw poll based on the comments you see on relevant articles - do you think would support those moves? What percentage wouldn't give a shit as long as they still had their footy and the X Factor on the telly and their Carling Black Label down the pub? What percentage would really, vociferously dare to object?

    Interesting thought, eh?

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  90. exiled - that's me point, think. that there are two sides (for a paper) to taking a cuddly view against race-hate. one is that it's wrong, the other is that they might get their arses sued off. or worse.

    (cartoons?)

    anyway - if they'll mod me for ripping off beatrix potter because they're scared of the possibility of copyright infringement (because clearly the lawyers for the estate would a) give a shit and b) be there anyway) then if someone claimed actual harm, they could either threaten PCC or legal action and then they'd have to realise that race-hate is race-hate, whatever the race.

    I ain't saying they should be sued. just that the prospect might cause them to rethink their policy and decide where they actually stand...

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  91. Hi BB,

    I am astounded at the number of racist comments, or those condoning violence against a racial group, that are allowed to stand on CiF. What the fuck to they think they are doing?

    You wonder whether this is all part of the CIF business plan?

    Make CIF more accessible to new posters - whether they're refugees from Mumsnet or Stormfront, get rid of all the awkward old posters who like to debate, and fill it up with articles written by BTL commenters, whether they know anything about the subject or not...

    Oh, I forgot, and call up lobbyists, think tanks and religious groups, and ask them if there's anything they'd like to promote...

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  92. BB
    "What percentage would really, vociferously dare to object?"
    I don't even want to think about it because it would be scarily, shamefully low...

    Paul - there is an interesting point there about being 'French' or not - what Sarko is proposing at the moment seems to be ("decheance de nationalite") the removal of citizenship ('frenchness') if you cross the line and you have a family background that involves 'non-frenchness'.

    that would completely go against the old idea of 'french' - whether french-jewish, french-magreb, french-outremer, etc - and create a strange middle-ground of 'french until you piss us off' between 'french french' (i.e. white) and 'non-french'.

    arguably not second-class citizens while that's restricted to 'non-french' but there's a provisional / purgatory element there that seems to fly in the face of liberte egalite etc...

    the CRS in MontyP got a kicking some years back after they dragged a group of Roma off a tram for not havingg tickets. by 'dragged', i mean 'threw', really. and 'kicked'. whereas the non-roma without tickets were just asked to get off, or pay.

    wonder what would happen if / when they do it again.

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  93. Nearly finished housework before Princess arrives.

    Can't find the mouse poison though . Fairly obvious to me that you can always find it if it's right beside the cornflakes, but women don't seem capable of understanding this and hide it away.

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  94. MOUSE POISON?!!

    How could you, Frog?!

    *cries*

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  95. BB - am rather fond of skittering tailed vermin meself (and still missing rats Regan and Ripley, of blessed memory) but...mice problematic, hygenically speaking.

    mind, do recall when we lived in bristol and had a mild mouse problem. minty (also OBM) killed the first quite by accident - he was snoozing by the fire, it ran in front of him, he squished it with a reflex action - but was then terrified of what he had done (akin to sampson the cat in the church mice) and would hide behind the sofa whenever he saw the mouse-catching kit (saucepan, my litle fishing net for holidays) come out.

    sadly, the mice mainly congregated behind the sofa. leading to a panicked yelp and the sight of the dog dashing headlong towards the french windows...

    [crunch]
    [whimper]

    anyway...

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  96. Evenin' me hearties!

    Must fess up that I've not read down all the comments from after I disappeared last night and mainly skim-read....apols to those whom I've missed, my mind starts popping with ideas at what folk say and in the end - I'm tongue-tied!

    Just wanted to say warm welcome to Tascia - I like your suggestion about further infomation about the decline of British manufacturing.

    And to Exiled - I will never know to this day how you had the stomach for battling those vicious lunatic cowards on ScheissWatch (Tales of Hoffman's personal hate site")- but your defence of me when I was getting serious trouble on CiF, on YouTube,CiFWatch and via my MySpace and hatemail in my email from those bastards - I'm not sure if you knew the extent of the hate campaign, but it was serious.

    When I nominated you on CiF last year, I wasn't able to say how much it to me meant at the time, but, in a weird cyberspace sort of way - you gave me courage and for that, I am eternally grateful.

    Deano

    Going to really try and make it to the September jaunt - a poem? a song? Would be my pleasure!

    You would have been jealous today - I was in doggie heaven - training for me new job with the Guide Dogs. I met 3 puppies - Darcy, only 12 weeks, gorgeous Golden Retriever - only a baby really, complete with puppy fat! Thomas - 10 months - a bit flighty and excitable - Lab/Retriever cross, started training early and is doing well and then Grace - beautiful, beautiful gentle German Shepherd - unfortunately, one of the few that didn't make the grade for a Guide Dog and was waiting to be re-homed (there's a huge waiting list for them) ;))

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  97. Frog2

    You can always borrow me cats! The mere whiff of them is often enough to send any sensible mouse into the farthest reaches of the undergrowth!

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  98. LaRit

    You were getting online hate-mail from people from CiFWatch?

    WTF?!

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  99. True story. I was watching TV one night and a mouse came down the stairs, sat and watched me for a moment then buggered off. I yelped and Mrs KT came running in, sparking the following exchange:

    Mrs KT: What?
    KT: I saw a mouse.
    Mrs KT: Where?
    KT: There, on the stairs.
    Mrs KT (rushes over to stairs): Where?
    KT (points): There on the stairs. Errr, right there.

    It was OK though, the cat got it.

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  100. Re:

    The Roma threads..... couldn't even go there - I would have been banned - I can only imagine the filth that was posted and allowed to remain in situ.

    Those stills from Sarkozy's little exercise in pogroms and Berlusconi's violent evictions...... make me want to wretch.

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  101. Hello Killing Time!!

    Sorry, meant to say, very glad to see you here ;0)

    PS Where's Esmerelda???

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  102. BB:

    Oh yes. Many of whom belonged to a hardcore collective of bullies on Harry's Place and Cif.

    Very scary shit.

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  103. BB

    I wasn,t criticizing or making any judgement of the way the French behaved in WW2.I was merely stating a historical fact.Namely that the level of French collaboration-at whatever level-in the deportation of foreign born Jews was far greater than the level of collaboration in the deportation of French Jews.Consequently a disproportionately high % of the circa 75,000 Jews deported from France were classified as foreign as opposed to french.Whereas French Jews enjoyed one of the highest survival rates in Nazi controlled Europe.

    @philippa-i don,t know the extent to which the French today differentiate between minorities they consider to be French and those they consider to be foreign.I have a couple of friends from the French Caribbean which is considered to be part of France.And they,ve told me that the level of intolerance shown towards French Caribbeans in France is markedly lower than the intolerance shown to people from say the continent of Africa.But then i don,t know where Le Pen and his mob stand with regard to that.

    And maybe it,s not the best comparison but there are Black members of the EDL in this country.And it seems that the worst of the venom of the EDL is directed at Muslims irrespective of their ethnicity and including White Muslims.Funny thing though is that all the research that i,m aware of about race and religious relations in the UK seem to indicate that prejudice by the White British majority is at it,s greatest in those parts of the country where very few visible minorites live.

    Hope all,s going well with your job.

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  104. KT:

    I was watching TV one night and a mouse came down the stairs, sat and watched me for a moment then buggered off

    That's the scout (as my Dad used to say) the next time it appears, it thinks it's in a Speakeasy, smoking a fag and got a glass of single malt in it's little mouse-like hand and is telling its mates - "come on down boys and girls, this is where the action is!"

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  105. Hi La Rit,

    I will never know to this day how you had the stomach for battling those vicious lunatic cowards on ScheissWatch

    It was fun - I'm a bit weird like that...

    That is until they banned me - banned from a site full of people complaining about how they were banned.... I think I was the first poster to get a thread named after me, and the first to be banned!

    but your defence of me when I was getting serious trouble on CiF, on YouTube,CiFWatch and via my MySpace and hatemail in my email from those bastards - I'm not sure if you knew the extent of the hate campaign, but it was serious.

    No probs. If they had any evidence of anti-semitic comments, I wouldn't have said a word, but the tortuous way they twisted your words (and the words of many since) was beyond the pale.

    In a strange way CIF Watch fulfils a useful function. They're so obsessive in their search for any sign of anti-semitism, when they can't make a plausable case, it's pretty safe to assume that there isn't any case to be made.

    When I nominated you on CiF last year, I wasn't able to say how much it to me meant at the time, but, in a weird cyberspace sort of way - you gave me courage and for that, I am eternally grateful.

    Aww, you're going to embarass me now...

    Exiledlondoner 1 vote. MoveAnyMountain 1000 votes. Your vote was noted at CIF Watch, you'll be pleased to know... ;-)

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  106. Hi LaRit:-)

    @KT-where,s Esmelia Sniff gone.I was looking forward to getting down and dirty with her-in a purely cyber way of course.

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  107. Hey LaRit, good to see you, your job sounds awesome. Gotta love the pups. Sorry to hear about your poetry course though. That's a bummer. When I make it big can I fund you for that?

    Still feels slightly odd to be here but I have kevlar. Should be OK.

    Esmelia is currently residing on amazon.co.uk. Search on How to Cook Children and The Wickedest Witch if you're interested.

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  108. Paul, she's also on Facebook if you can be bothered.

    As witches go, she's a vile old bag though.

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  109. I've got mice - they're not a major problem normally. When they start to multiply, or take the piss, I get the poison out.

    You just learn not to leave food out. If there's nothing to eat, they stay pretty much under control.

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  110. KT

    Did the little mouse have clogs on?

    Well, I declare!

    :o)

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  111. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  112. Paul - a couple of friends from overseas departments (reunion, martinique, etc) say the same as your friends - those departments being 'french' and therefore they're OK (to a point) while north africa is just 'french-speaking' which is different...the stats behind an article from a BTL-er some months ago seemed to back this up - that it's the 'maghrebs' who get the worst of the worst, the 'outremers' are OK because they're 'proper french'.

    even le pen stays a bit off that topic (after all, he's got a lot of other ones to splutter on about).

    very weird.

    (job good - am moving up to 20 hours pw in september for another 3 month contract, so will be basically solvent! if find flatmate...)

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  113. "Esmelia is a witch’s witch. Clinging to the old traditions of cackling, cauldron-boiling, cruelty, and a bit more cruelty, her interests include pulling the wings off birds, licking toads, and stapling worms together."
    sounds like the perfect friend!

    (does she play scrabble?)

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  114. I bought The Wickedest Witch but I still haven't read past the first few pages yet, KT.

    I will take it on holiday with me, though. I liked the prologue! :o)

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  115. Another day, another set of threads. re the Roma- made one comment as well as a follow up comment- namely that the piece said that some Scandinavian countries were deporting Roma.

    Scandinavian countries do not deport people without good reason.

    That is all I have to say on the matter as I do not want to inflame the situation- here or on Cif.

    Deeper things like cultural nuances and centuries of opression are of course valid, but need to be discussed in in depth academic settigns rather than soundbite friendly comments boards.

    Rahter than gnashing teeth, better to just enjoy ourselves. Besides my personal life is occupying me now- I am back on the job hunt again. It really is futile and depressing. I will not get anywhere. I don't even have any references becuase I've never had any previous employment. Fucking draining.....

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  116. Hi KT,

    Any chance of adding my ex-girlfriend to the next edition?

    I'm sure she'd be delighted to be immortalised in print...

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  117. Paul

    Soz - I wasn't saying that you were criticising the French, just that one tends to.

    Except I don't like saying one because it makes me sound posh.

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  118. BB - was v confused to turn up and be laughed at for saying 'nous', and to have to get used to 'on' being not at all posh....

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  119. Thanks BB, hope you enjoy, and Paul I'm always happy to libel a friend's ex. Just send her details on. PB, Esmelia doesn't play scrabble but she does make party animals out of intestines.

    Thanks again for the warm welcome all of you. It's very very much appreciated and always good to be in such fine company. Feeling fuzzy inside and I don't think it's the wine.

    Work in the morning though. Have a great night.

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  120. philippa

    ''was v confused to turn up and be laughed at for saying 'nous', and to have to get used to 'on' being not at all posh.... ''

    My spoken french has the effect of making french people laugh full stop.I scraped an O,Level pass in French to give you an example of the level i,m at.Plus my French is spoken with an inner London accent to give it a certain twist.(plus the teacher who taught me was Irish)Anyway i,ve been repeatedly re-assured that the French do appreciate it when you make the effort.And i have been offered a starring role in a new French TV series caleed'Les Rosbifs'.

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  121. #@KT-where,s Esmelia Sniff gone.I was looking forward to getting down and dirty with her-in a purely cyber way of course.#

    Don't do it Killing Time. He was threatening to eat people alive 'cyber style' yesterday but it feels more like getting nipped on the ankle by a fat poodle. Just read your post. Quite shocked by it to be honest..fuckin astounded even.

    First, I can remember having a kinda sideswipe at you and Hermione maybe four or five times..and not even especially harshly..more along the lines of explaining that I find your banter akin to sticking fingers in your ears and shouting LaLaLa. The comments yesterday were to wind up your cyber-vigilante buffoon of a mate. I've gotta be honest I find your 'lighthearted' posts irritating, but it's more than that; it's the way CIF encourage that sorta thing just now. Incidentally..I'm not certain Hank has ever done it..that's just Captain Fuckup, saviour of the internet, getting mixed up again. I'm not sure there's a stick anywhere he wouldn't get the wrong end of.

    The Guardian is currently acting more hypocritically than any time I can remember. They're not even hedging their bets, they could be spinning a "AV'll make it all worthwhile", they could let their bloated babyboomer commentators rip into the Tories in a welcome reprise of the Thatcher years (the private schools, the au pair, the pension plan, the second home, aside; at heart, they're the same old socialists they 'always' were)..they could relive their glorious student, radical, 'it was so much simpler then' past..but that's too risky..they fucked up..miscalculated..backed the wrong horse...and now they're paralysed by indecision and can hardly raise a whimper in protest.

    What they're really doing is sticking their fingers in their ears and going LaLaLaLa..which is why it pisses me off when people pile in to join in the game. Nothing personal. But I'll respond to your post..I'll pick the bits I like best..

    #but I live in a rural area of France and have three young children. As you can imagine I don’t get out much and one of the few things I miss is a natter with mates down the pub. To my surprise, the WADDYA thread has provided a surrogate.#

    I didn't realise. I'm sure you're sick of politics..bet you had enough of politics when Thatcher decimated the UK Camembert Industry and forced all you skilled cheesemakers to eke out a desultory existence in Rural France.
    Sorry..could resist..but I'm very happy for you..seriously..only, it's a comment site..people comment on what's written..even the 'whimsical' stuff.... it's actually a sort of expectation..sometimes they don't like it..tragic isn't it?

    Unless you're actually in line with the "if you can't say something nice.." school of thought that prevails there..especially with expat posters?

    #Leaving aside that by describing us as “nonentities” you are basically saying “I’m great, they’re wankers” you seem to be on some kind of quixotic quest to punish CiF and those who use it for not living up to your expectations.#

    Nope..I'd describe anyone who does the finger-ear-LaLa thing as a nonentity..like I said..nothing personal. Rest of the sentence is spot on..I'd like the place to disappear up its own bloated backside for lots of reasons.

    #For all your cynicism, I wonder if you aren’t the more idealistic of us.#
    I'm not sure I'm either..just shocked you see any contradiction or even congruity in the two..I don't even think that this is rare..for an extreme example read Isaac Deutcher's stuff on Trotsky.

    #What though, does your disappointment with CiF have to do with Hermione and me?#

    Explained..the finger in the ear stuff.

    Montana

    I should ask you explain a couple of things..maybe even justify it.. but frankly...whatever.

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  122. Paul
    Thanks for that, will look out for it. Let's not forget the hundreds of Algerian dissidents murdered in Paris 61.

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  123. Charles "It really is futile and depressing. I will not get anywhere."

    Well princess's eldest is in Caen and he just got an SMS from a temp agency , in Glasgow, offering hotel work of some kind. There's stuff out there if a 25 yr old frog "assistant' is getting some of it .

    Princess sleeps, having seen the first mouse visible for a week , so I will steal away . Shhhh & nn .

    PS anyone want to know more about frog collaboration under the Occupation, there's a completely useless uninformed & uneducated nasty Nabila-article recently, with LOTS of good comments . No point re-inventing the wheel ...

    types very softly ... shh nn !

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  124. monkeyfish,

    What they're really doing is sticking their fingers in their ears and going LaLaLaLa..which is why it pisses me off when people pile in to join in the game. Nothing personal.

    What does that actually mean - "when people pile in to join in the game"?

    When the game is sticking your fingers in your ears and going LaLaLaLa, isn't joining the game nothing more than failing to express sufficient outrage? Maybe talking about something else? You're either with us or against us?

    I didn't realise. I'm sure you're sick of politics..bet you had enough of politics when Thatcher decimated the UK Camembert Industry and forced all you skilled cheesemakers to eke out a desultory existence in Rural France.

    Maybe he was never interested? Maybe he's interested, but doesn't want to take part? Maybe he doesn't like the way the debate is framed?

    Unless you're actually in line with the "if you can't say something nice.." school of thought that prevails there..especially with expat posters?

    Nothing like a sweeping and unfounded generalisation to keep the debater going - speaking as an ex-pat that is....

    Nope..I'd describe anyone who does the finger-ear-LaLa thing as a nonentity..like I said..nothing personal.

    Pretty much means "anyone who doesn't share your point of view is a nonentity". It's a point of view, though hardly a intelligent one, and it does appear to be rather personal - but hey, if you want to dismiss anyone who takes a different view as a nonentity, you won't be the first to do so.

    Rest of the sentence is spot on..I'd like the place to disappear up its own bloated backside for lots of reasons.

    But as you can't get to Alan Rusbridger, you'll have to settle for trying to pick off posters one by one?

    Explained..the finger in the ear stuff.

    Not explained - explanations make sense.

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  125. monkeyfish

    Having a few more digs at moi?Not for the first time it seems i,ve hit a nerve haven,t i? Look i,m not a man to bear grudges so as a peace offering i,d like to dedicate this song to you and your best cyber buddy.

    I hope bygones can now be bygones.xxxxx

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  126. Paul

    we've played "I've hit a nerve before" remember? You were no good at it last time.

    exiled

    You're a bit of a pretentious fuck aren't ya?

    explain please

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  127. monkeyfish

    ''we've played "I've hit a nerve before" remember? You were no good at it last time.''

    Oh i think i was!

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  128. A really classy tune for everyone.

    Nite all.

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  129. Hello

    Just spent several hours with young guy and his wife. He is in recpt. of DLA but works 16 hours a week. She works in local care home. 3 children

    He has spent time on a scheme to 'advise' him on self employment. His projected cash flow (done by training agency) says that within 3 years he will be earning £50 thousand pa. Against this he has borrowed £8,000 - so called soft loan.

    He finishes his training next month - I have been helping him with publicity material and showing him how ro project plan - agency failed to do this.

    Final outcome of our session - the realisation that as soon as he become self employed FT he will probably lose his DLA.

    This young chap went thru period of depression - failed suicide attempts. Had brain tumour removed about 5 years ago.

    now he has to take chance on 'coming clean' with tax man and trying to become independent. If he loses DLA he could be in serious trouble if his business attempt fails.

    Had a long chat about how fear of losing the little you have holds people back.

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  130. Leni, now the Tories want to rob people of their council houses.

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  131. Hi Charlie

    I haven't seen that one. Tell me

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  132. Graun front page.

    Time for bed anyway,G'night.

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  133. Hello Leni, did you catch that link from "Sheffpixie": "The Collapse of the Middle Class" by Elizabeth Warren, on Youtube?
    Sorry, still haven't got the hang of how to do links but I'm sure someone will do it for me!

    All well and good in the analysis but precious few pointers on how to reverse the trend to a "two tier" society; between the obscenely wealthy and the underclass.

    "The Most IMPORTANT video You'll Ever See" is also worth a look if you type that into the Youtube search engine, by "wonderingmind42"

    Given that I break out in a cold sweat whenever someone mentions mathematics, it was a relief for the concept of "exponential growth" to be explained in terms that I could understand!

    Oh. and is it true that some fuckwit in Westminster has come up with the bright idea that if you live north of Watford Gap then your benefits should be cut because it's cheaper to live "up North"?

    I despair, I really do!

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  134. Chekhov

    yes - the fuckwit in question is IDS.

    haven't really looked at anything yet today - was busy to way pst 11 pm. Managed 1 post on disability thread.

    The expression "haves and have nots" is becoming more of a reality daily.

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  135. Oh and Hank, Sherfig and Monkeyfish, if you really want to make difference, direct your anger more specifically.
    Give us some thing to read, give us something to watch, give us anything other than a rant about how we are not worthy non-entities because we can't keep up with your intellects.

    You are obviously all smart guys but dismissing people who can't "cut the mustard"with you in an intellectual debate isn't going to do much for your cause is it?

    BTW: what is your cause? Is is to stand up for the working class or just to look smug and self satisfied on a blog?

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  136. Leni: I was under the impression the new term was:"Have and have Yachts"

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  137. chekhov

    Just watched the "...middle class" . That's it. It is the fear, as some of had said, that spurs the hatred and anger against the poor and the disabled benefits recipients.

    The changes in expenditure are interesting - but not surprising.

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  138. Just looked at proposed changes in council housing.

    How long before country implodes ?

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  139. Tough tory days, Leni, we got through them before, we will do again, if we organise. Needs a strong, nationally respected figurehead. There don't seem to be too many of those around these days.

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  140. hello Habib

    There is no organised oppostion anywhere. Couple I was talking to tonight have no idea of what is happening overall. Simply struggling on to try to do the best for their 3 kids.

    there will be many casualties before this can be turned around.

    ths condems have more or less guaranteed themselves a full 5 years term - unless they have a great falling ou among themselves.

    five years will guarantee their pensions and a place on several boards.

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  141. I have faith that someone will always come to the fore in bad times, Leni. We really need someone.

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  142. Even if it is just a forlorn rallying cry, we need someone.

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  143. I mean it would be nice if it we could do it on our own, as a people's collective, but the only time that has ever worked is with a figurehead, at least.

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  144. Habib

    sadly I can only think of people aleady in the public sphere who are likely to use the situation for the own advancement.

    Sleep tight and I hope things soon work out well for you and Montana. xx

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  145. Night night, Leni, yous can all laugh, but I'd go with Eddie Izzard.

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  146. (Not as opposed to Montana, I mean, just as a political figurehead you could trust) :-)

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  147. monkeyfish

    You're a bit of a pretentious fuck aren't ya?

    Am I?

    explain please

    You've got your explanation - I'm a bit of a pretentious fuck.

    What more do you want?

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