13 August 2010


Kao Pun Temple Waterfalls, Thailand

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
-George Bernard Shaw


  1. Interesting discussion last night Again after I was in bed!

    Class and race (or religion or gender!).

    Class - lets use the Marxist terms for the sake of clarity (apols to those who understand this already)

    Bourgeois –owners of the means of production
    Proletariat – those who work for the bourgeois

    The proletariat create wealth by their labour, the bourgeois because they own the means of production extract most of that wealth for themselves. They receive that wealth not by working for it but by right of ownership.

    Thus the bourgeois do not have to work to live but the proletariat have to work to survive. This is the major fault line in our society

    Terms like ‘middle class’ are confusing – there are of course people who do not fit into either of these classes – people who mostly provide services for the bourgeois – lawyers doctors senior management teachers etc thye tend to side with the bourgeois.

    The lines have got a even fuzzier in places because sections of the proletariat have obtained by struggle, a higher proportion of the wealth they created both as personal income and in the form of the ‘social wage’ (health education and other services). They have today a standard of living which equals or even exceeds that of the lower end of the middle class (teachers, nurses for example). There is of course a case to made for the view that teachers and nurses along with social workers and others have been proletarianised.

    This ‘fuzziness’ can be removed by asking one simple question. “What happens if you loose your job or cease to be able to do what you think of as ‘work’?”

    If you can continue to maintain your lifestyle through income from investments etc – you are bourgeois

    If you rapidly cease to be able to maintain your lifestyle – cannot pay the mortgage etc – you are proletarian.

    That’s the division that matters – all members of the proletariat need to show solidarity with one another. So if the bourgeois try to divide us (and they do) by race religion gender type of employer (private/public for example), we need to support each other. So in race terms its “black and white unite and fight”. If a black person or a woman or a catholic or a muslim is getting poorer conditions or is being bullied by management because of their gender race or religion, other workers should fight with them for better treatment because an injury to one is an injury to all.

    But it’s the economic relations created by capitalism that is at the root of all the injustices like sexism and racism. They serve to divide the proletarian class against each other. So the only approach to the problems of racism and sexism is to oppose them, not by dividing people by gender and giving extra rights to women and black people, but by demanding that all human beings be given the dignity they deserve.

    Until these economic relations are altered so that we all have to work to create wealth instead of a privileged few living off the backs of the rest of us, any gains we make can be clawed back when the bourgeois are under threat. This is what is happening now.

    The bourgeois exploits the world to gain wealth without working for it, the proletariat is just another part of the that they plunder and is the means by which they become wealthy.

  2. I would add that thatto obtain that dignity society needs to be organised so that all members contribute directly or indirectly to the wealth of that society and benefit directly from it.

    The lumpen proletariat are essentially proletarians who attempt to get a living as the bourgeois do - y robbing those who work. When proletarians do it its called 'crime' when the bourgeois do it its called 'the rights of property'.

    Funny that!

  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

  4. Morning Anne,

    For yourself and Hank from last night (and anyone else interested). I can't recommend this enough.

    It's a fascinating analysis on the myth of popular capitalism and the reality of British Social attitudes towards traditional leftist values.

    It explains clearly the hijacking of the Labour party by the right and Labours wholescale acceptance of 'the new realism' under Thatcher.

    It also analyses the media campaigns of the 80's that instilled the myth of 'the classless nation of consumers' where everyone owned their own house and had shares.

    It was all bullshit of course. British Social attitudes studies continually showed through the 80's and 90's into the 21st Century that the makorityof people still self classified themselves as 'working class' or 'poor' even though these terms were not used anymore than those in Govt.

    In terms of 'social democracy', to this day, the majority of people- 67% want nationalisation of industries privatised in the last 25 years.

    In the areas of 'traditional social democracy', the British public have continued to identify themselves well to the left of the mainstream consensus.

    I logged on to the British Social attitudes survey website last night and it was a true eye opener as to the British People's real attitudes.

    This brings into play two important questions- 1. How the Left tap into this natural majority in terms of activism.

    2. How the Labour party can be reclaimed again for Social Democratic principles.

    I fully believe that if a party stood for election on

    - renationalisation of the railways and other public services

    - protection of the NHS

    - Comprehensive system of care for welfare.

    - Plus everything that Hank said last night

    It would be an absolute winner. I have no doubt at all in my mind.

    Therefore the stumbling block is the Labour Party. It has to be taken back from the neo-liberals as Anne continuously says.

    The need for cuts is a myth. The Labour Party was offering cuts at the General Election, because the leadership are part of the neo-liberal politico-business consensus.

    The left need to grow a pair of balls because believe you me, there is a natural majority out there for Social Democracy. The last 30 years has been an utter failure except for the top 2% of society.

    It's time to claim the country back from the 2%.

  5. Excellent post, Duke, agreed 100%.

  6. Morgens Anne & Duke:

    Didn't read all of yesterday's thread but some stirring stuff from Hank and others and also both of your good selves this morning!

    Thank you.

    Nice to see some new folk (Hello Ratboy) and someone else who I can't recall now....

    Just before I comment.... now I know why Peter B is bullet-proof - thanks to Hank for this little nugget. Says it all really.

    "Or when Peter Bracken gets to stand as a Labour MP thanks to the contacts he's acquired through his father-in-law, Martin Bell, the incorruptible, whiter-than-white sainted enemy of the nepotists"

    Sorry to use a cheesy analogy, but watched a bit of the Matrix again for the first time in ages and when Neo has taken the red pill and been 'unplugged' and he's in recovery - his muscles have 'atrophied' and he finds it difficult to focus because he's not been using his eyes.... struck a chord as I read the above, people are awake, as Duke's refs to the British Survey above, but they need to start building up their strength fast and focus hard to realise the magnitude of the struggle we face. We are held back, in part, by our sense of fair play - we think when push comes to shove, those who rule have some kind of moral centre. They don't. When Hank says 'hang a few bankers to encourage the others' sounds like a good idea to me, if extreme - but I'd rather a few of them went to the wall than the millions who are, by dint of being left without a pot to piss in nor any visible means of support, hang themselves out of despair - A Govt. who rules the mass with Munchahsen's-by-Proxy....

  7. And there has to be a concerted effort to counter the media campaign that the Left wing and social democracy can somehow be equated with welfarism and the ‘spongers’.

    The Left has never been about ‘welfarism’ or letting people ‘sponge off the state’- pejorative terms used by the right to vilify individuals, the whole system and social democracy.

    I give you Clement Attlee. Attlee, it must be remembered was always on the right wing of the Labour Party (he became Earl Attlee let’s not forget) and in an eternal battle with the Bevanites.

    However, Attlee’s philosophy as follows makes him seem like a Revolutionary in today’s current political climate:

    "Socialism means the common ownership of land and capital together with a democratic form of government. It involves production for use not profit. It involves the abolition of all unearned wealth."

    Attlee was very strong on the concept of freedom, but he expressed freedom in economic and class terms:

    "It is true that in the socialist state people will be deprived of the right of living in idleness at the expense of the community, but this right is in practice denied to the majority already. The denial of the right to work is one of greatest infringements of liberty imposed under capitalism."

    And to the opponents of the Social Democratic state:

    "Those who attack socialism on the grounds it will mean the enslavement of the individual belong invariably to the class whose possession of property has given them liberty at the expense of the enslavement of others."

    Now, I’m not living as Simon Jenkins haughtily called ‘Planet 1945’ the other night, but the grains of truth in Attlee’s quotes above are absolutely relevant today.

    What is notable is the lack of articles on CiF on the ’bounty hunter credit checking’ campaign on the poor and those on benefits. Henry Porter’s not interested because it is not a bourgeois problem. We’re not talking cameras in bins or id cards which would affect him and his ilk, we are talking about civil liberty infringements on the poorest and as we know Freedoms are applicable only to those who can afford them.

    Aneurin Bevan said it best on freedoms:

    Freedom is a by-product of economic surplus.

    Economic surplus has increasingly been concentrated in the hands of the minority in the last 30 years.

  8. Hello Jay!

    Hope you're well matey?

    Duke will check out the links, thank you - may miss most of today's banter and this evening's as got to schlepp over East to get some money from the creditio unionio and then over back to Barnes to work until 9, then off to hear Mr Larit knocking out some Disco tunes.... I may be gone for sometime and am all fired up at present!


    Hope you're feelign a bit better?

    Re: the volunteering for Guide Dogs - I'll ask for you if you like. Lots of folk become puppy walkers, where they take a puppy for a year and teach it the basics - not sure if I could do it as I wouldn't want to give them back, but I'll see if there's other ways too..... x

    Sadly don't get to take a doggie with me, but door-knocking you get to meet a helluva lot of dogs.... so I can indulge myself meeting pooches of all shapes and sizes ;0)

  9. PCC:

    One more thing - you can train to become a GUide Dog trainer and that's paid!

    The trainer I met said it was the best job in the world!

  10. Duke - well said...

    Also did you hear that arch tax-dodging nodom Billionaire wanker Philip Green has been appointed by Cameron to 'advise' on cuts in public spending and report back by.... wait for it..... September.

    You really could not make it up. The audacity.

  11. @La Ritournelle:

    Philip Green would be a wanker whatever sphere of life he found himself in (chef, postie, scaffolder, Tube driver, etc). He's just one of those blokes. The tax-dodging non-dom billionnaire stuff is just the sickly icing on a particularly unpleasant cake.

  12. Morning Duke

    From your second link -

    Some 31% strongly supported the renationalisation of electricity, gas, water, the railways and telecommunications industry – while another 36% slightly supported renationalisation. But the over-35s were much more likely to support renationationalisation. Just 12% of 16-24 year-olds strongly supported the idea, whereas 41% of 55-64 year-olds were in favour.

    Similarly, older people were more likely to agree that politicians were out of touch with the problems faced by ordinary people during the economic crisis. One in four 16-25-year-olds believed this, in contrast to 58% of 55-64 year-olds.

    That generational divide is a whole thread in itself,part of the needed action plan. On nationalisation, or similar, I've often wondered why on earth brit pension funds can't just invest in those utilities and fund pensions from the dividends. A self-sustaining 'local' system, but of course that goes against the dominant religion of free movement of capital. Intelligent nationalism and protectionism .

    That could only happen I think if we have a real galloping financial crisis, when everything is up in the air, and governments can easily be radical. Only then can you have wartime-like legislation overturning abusive 'legal' contracts for example.( PFI and many many others)

    Still far too much reading this week , gotta be practical ! Have one other thing to post to Golem ( 4 last blogs very good )and leave you with this.

    Web of shadow banking must be unravelled
    By Gillian Tett
    Published: August 12 2010 17:11

    A couple of years ago, it occurred to me that the 21st century financial system had come to resemble a huge ball of candy floss (or cotton candy, as Americans might say). For bankers had become so adept at slicing and dicing debt instruments, and then re-using these in numerous deals, they had in effect spun a great web of leverage and trading activity – in much the same way that sugar is spun in a bowl to create candy floss.

    From a distance, that activity looked impressive. But the underlying asset base was surprisingly small. Thus the key question that has hung over the system – and is doubly relevant now – is whether that cloud of trading activity could crumble back into itself? And what might the impact of that be?

    Well, if there is a system-crash could be a good time to decide who 'owns' what ...bifn !

  13. PS to La Rit -- peter has a french wife he tells us . Really 'bye for now' !

  14. renationalisation of electricity, gas, water, the railways and telecommunications

    I'd strongly support all of those except for telecomms. BT are rubbish and always were.

  15. Hi LaRit, i'm good yeah, you?

    Havent been on CiF/UT much lately, CIF so rarely publishes good articles these days, its so stagnant...

  16. A corker yesterday, though, Jay.... ;-)

  17. Thank you, Turgle, seems to have done the trick (wound Bracken up a treat) :)

  18. Morning Hank

    Interesting posts by you late last night.Would be even better mind if you quit making the personal asides.

    I agree with you that class is the main fault line in our society.But anyone who plays down the significance of the deepening fault lines based on race and religion in our society is being naive IMO.I would be interested in talking with you more about that when you,re next around.Hope all's well with you.

    @Jay -good to see you.Ditto what Thauma said.

  19. Hello Anne

    You are saying, in Marxist terms, what I said. People of all races and religions are now spread across the classes.

    The lumpenproles are fairly easily defined in Marxist terms but now - as then - not so easily identified. When there is no work and the unemployed lack the means to create that work they perforce become dependant. Those who commit obvious crimes are identifiable and are certainly more likely to be punished than the B classes.

    They are also more likely to be vilified - this can be be a catchall method of scapegoating the unemployed by ignoring the reasons for their idleness. Anyone who works for a wage/salary is vulnerable and can quickly be cast down into the ranks of the 'noncontributing'.

    The ghost of the lumpen persists and is being used to good effect when Cameron makes speeches about the decent family man passing closed curtains on his way to work each morning. This threat of all society being pulled down by the nonworking is a powerful image and the idea that the nonworkers are scroungers helps support the idea of workfare and punishing the sick by denying them financial support.

    These ideas are now being relaunched by the gvt. and supported by a large section of workers who fear for their own job and life security.

  20. BW - he's still bitter about how crap the England rugby team are and trying to take petty revenge.

    Leni - of course, the closed curtains could well be due to someone working the night shift - does this not occur to them?

  21. "he's still bitter about how crap the England rugby team are and trying to take petty revenge."

    Still, better than your football team. Well, a bit. Marginally. Who knows.

  22. Hi Paul and Bitters

    Ignore the cheeky wench, she lies on multiple counts - England are improving again, almost playing actual rugby like adults. Turgle is one of a number of awful abbreviations i coined for Thauma, including my personal favourite - the Turgilator, which then was reduced to Turgle for brevity (thats Turgle with a soft G, like in surge)

  23. thauma

    It may well occur to some but the image is implanted and intensifies the feeling of grievance as it is intended to do.

    The ongoing political war of words is more about image and symbols than it is about facts.

  24. Charlie

    I was thinking that now might be the right time to start putting out some feelers for a temporary job for the Xmas Season and for next years Census.Hopefully by then you,ll be sorted out anyway but it's always good to keep your options open.Take care.

  25. Dunno, BW, we might possibly have made it farther in the WC had it not been for that dastardly frog.

    However, football is unimportant so I'm not that fussed.

    Reilly - ha! Let's see England put in 4 tries against the All-Blacks when down to 14 men....

  26. Jay
    She's got a point mate...

  27. Yeah yeah, wait for the 6N, we'll see what happens, BoD and PoC wont last forever...

    And remember - you can be a great rugby team without scoring many tries at all, or having any grace, skill or style. Just look at England 2003!

  28. Afternoon all,

    Cheers for the link Duke and very interesting posts from Hank last night.

    It's a bad time when your countries rugby team kick a ball better than the football team.
    Although after watching France play in the last 6N I've decided to defect. Their play was frequently beautiful to behold, poetry on a rugby pitch at times.

  29. Afternoon

    Ah, a sporting morning....nothing about bikes though...

    For those who haven't read it yet - I recommend The Spirit Level - absolutely laden with seemingly irrefutable stats and facts.

    The Indie have published Jimmy Reid's famous speech. It's here.

    It might have been written yesterday....just read at the first paragraph:

    Alienation is the precise and correctly applied word for describing the major social problem in Britain today. People feel alienated by society. In some intellectual circles it is treated almost as a new phenomenon. It has, however, been with us for years. What I believe is true is that today it is more widespread, more pervasive than ever before. Let me right at the outset define what I mean by alienation. It is the cry of men who feel themselves the victims of blind economic forces beyond their control. It's the frustration of ordinary people excluded from the processes of decision-making. The feeling of despair and hopelessness that pervades people who feel with justification that they have no real say in shaping or determining their own destinies.

  30. Hello Ratboy, France did indeed play beautifully, scrummaged brilliantly too, damn good side at the minute.

  31. What's extra-annoying about the French is that they have real depth at practically every position.

    Didn't help them in the SH this spring, though. In fact Scotland (!) were the only NH team to win their series.

  32. Hi Paul

    Am I allowed to listen - not being much of a lady ?

  33. Thank you Paul - will examine in close detail when I get home from work!

  34. Paul

    Stole a quick peep nontheless - it's about rugby . We have a woman in the village who plays rugby - I reckon she could eat the average man- she's rather frightening.

  35. What I really enjoyed about watching France at the 6N was the level of intelligence displayed in their tactics and strategy.

    Sheffpixie - I've been contemplating buying the Spirit Level but I'm waiting to see if I can scrape enough spare money together to buy a Kindle at the end of the month before buying anymore paperbacks. I think the fact that certain sections of the Right spend a lot of time and effort denouncing The Spirit Level is recommendation enough.

    Thanks for the Jimmy Reid link. The Clydebank work-in was way before my time so it's something of an education for me to look back over the brilliant speeches of Jimmy Reid.

  36. LaRit,

    re Philip Green's 'consultative role'.

    The SNP administration in Scotland published its 'Independent Budget Review', which was commissioned at the start of the year.

    This commission was led by Crawford W Beveridge, a businessman, until recently HR chief of Sun Microsystems and on the board of AUTOcad computer design engineers. He is worth a few million.

    He sits on the SNP's 'council of economic advisers' alongside the former chairman of RBS George Mathewson.

    The IBR report believe it or not has recommended mass job cuts, wage freezes and deep cuts in public spending.

    Now without even going into the necessity of these cuts, the question must be asked. What democratic process was undertaken to legitimise these businessmen having hegemony over the fiscal future of the country?

    Answer: none.

    The cuts imposed are appalling- "savings" of 42 billion over the next 16 years apparently. The need for the cuts like the austerity measures everywhere can be fundamentally questioned.

    From a personal point, the Glasgow University Archaelogy Dept (GUARD) is being lined up to be abolished. One of my closest friends works for GUARD and I cannot emphasise how FUCKING IDIOTIC this decision is.

    Not only from a personal point of view but also the fact that GUARD are world renowned for their expertise and experience in the Archaeological world- to get rid of the dept for short term cost measures is such an anti-intellectual act of wanton vandalism both for the subject and the History and Culture of Scotland.

    It defies belief.

    This is only one small part of the sweeping cuts across Scotland's education sector which in itself is a small part of the overall cuts.

    What type of country do we want to live in? It's a race to the bottom and to come back to my original point- at the centre of influence is unelected businessmen who know the cost of everything (for themselves) and the value of nothing.

  37. The D miliband thread comments are being scythed - it's like death row for posters on there.

  38. Well said 13th! How thin is this wedge going to get? The sleep walking into an anti intelectual, divided and ruled society seems inevitable.

  39. Paul - that's hilarious!

    Duke - businessmen are pretty much guaranteed to make the wrong decision about anything. And of course humanity doesn't even come into it.

    Leni - Pretty reasonable comments they were too.

  40. The thing that really pisses me off about moderation on scumbag politicians' threads is that the bastards need to see the comments.

  41. 17 out of 42 comments so far gone.

    I imagine that Milibug has some unpaid aide watching the response.

    As Thauma said the comments should remain - not I suspect that they would cause a rethink but they just might dent the arrogant self assurance slightly.

  42. thauma,

    businessmen are pretty much guaranteed to make the wrong decision about anything. And of course humanity doesn't even come into it.

    This is where a comparison with the Dutch social model proves apposite. Any budget cuts (and they are coming once the new administration is sworn in) will be discussed and debated with the social partners including the CNV (confederation of trade unions) who represent the Dutch worker at the very top level of decision making.

    A concept like this would be unthinkable anywhere in the UK yet we allow our fiscal future to be dictated by unelected businessmen. And we all know what Adam Smith had to say about that...


    What did you get zapped for on WADDYA?

  43. And before I head off for the rest of the afternoon and evening.


    a tune just for you with some clever lyrics going on- Marx & Engels by Belle & Sebastian.

    It's not about Marx & Engels per se, more about a bookish,shy girl (like most B & S songs...) however listen to the background vocals from 1m 45s on. The girl in the background sweetly sings:

    'The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a revolutionary part to all feudal, idyllic relationships.It has resolved personal worth and in place of freedom is exploitation for profit alone. There is a spectre of the past in my bold assertion.

    Which must surely be the only time in popular music where an extract of 'the Communist Manifesto' has been sung??

    Have a good day all.

  44. I was enquiring where the Graun managed to find moderators of such mindboggling stupidity. I think they have now gone back and deleted about my last 6 posts.

  45. @Duke

    If I may step in for Jay, as I saw it before it went; in an interesting recursive manner, it was deleted for suggesting that the moderation on the Peter Bracken thread was, in some cases, rather too zealous.

    Moderation really is following Fight Club and establishing its own first rule.

  46. Sorry Jay, didn't know you were around.

  47. Duke that is truly shocking, especially about GUARD. Given their expertise and experience I'm willing to bet that they do a lot of essential work for private companies who need archaeological excavations to be carried out before development can begin. Is the law going to be amended so sites of historical interest don't need to be recorded before development begins? If not it just seems balmy to cut funding for a department that brings in revenue. Yes GUARD could focus entirely on commercial archaeology to the exclusion of research digs but in the long term this will be detrimental to the department. Nevermind the loss to the study of archaeology that losing such a good department would be. But then knowledge for knowledge sake alone has no monetary worth and so it is understandable how most businessmen would see no problem in cutting it.

    I've been thinking how much of an uproar there would be if the boot was on the other foot. Can you imagine the whining and screams of rage if a section of the left was to use a crisis within capitalism to make fundemental changes to the structure of society?

    Any idea on what action we could take to at least attempt to resist this noxious imposition of idiotic ideaology? I'm at a point where just talking about it is almost tiresome and I get angry at the fact that I'm not taking any action to walk the walk. But I can't see how effective the old methods of resistance can be. Organise demonstrations and they'll ignore you. Go on strike and they'll label you scum and mobilise the media machine to ensure there is no united public opinion in support. I don't believe resistance is impossible I just lack the original ideas needed at the moment.

    Certain sectors could employ new ways to strike similar to Jimmy Reid's work in. The tube and certain other public services for example could operate as usual but refuse to accept payment. But not every service has this option. Besides without wide ranging cooperation this does not resist the ideaology itself.

  48. Ratboy,

    excellent points and I absolutely will come back to you on those later, I'm running out the office door as we speak. Hope that's ok.


    For fuck sake, I've just seen Peter Bracken's thread. How on earth has yours been zapped whereas mines and others (which could be construed as 'offensive') remain?


  49. Of course Duke.

    An interesting thing about Cif moderation I became aware of on the PBracken thread - Apparently it is against the mod rules to speculate about MaM's identity. Maybe he really is IDS...

  50. Hi Peter, i been around today but havent been for a while. Hope you're well.

    Be good to see you do another UT2 piece duke, top posts here today.

    The Miliband thread is a graveyard of deleted posts, absolute carnage.

  51. I see Jay,s piece de resistance from yesterday has been zapped.Don,t recall seeing anything untoward in it.Hope someone isn't suffering from a sense of humour bypass.Be a shame if that were the case.

  52. Ooops-i see that,s already been covered and is now 'old news'.Moving swiftly on.....!

  53. Just read Jimmy Reid's speech - Thanks for the link Sheff.

    He spoke those words nearly forty years ago - they are even more true today!

    We haven't been lisyeming to him - time we did!

  54. Anne

    Think I'm giving up on the groan after a lifetime of loyal addiction and taking up the Indie. At least the indie published the speech - the groan didn't even bother to give us a link to it.

    Will have to get used to the indie crossword - will take ages.....

  55. Why does Cif host comment pieces from politicians, invite us to comment and then prevent our doing so ?

  56. Just read that millipede piece, jay - am still grinding my teeth. Someone please remind me that the use of violence is ultimately futile.....

  57. Evening all

    Early finish on a Friday - superb.

    (Got work to do over the weekend though, which is shite, but tonight is mine, I tells ya! MINE!)

    That really cheesed me off that Jay's post was zapped on P-Brax's thread. What was the point of that? Far funnier and more palatable than some of the shitty things I have had said to me when I have had atl articles.

    Sheff - I went over to the Inde newspaper for a while, but I still found myself buying the Graun on a Saturday because (at the time) I missed Julie Birchill! The Graun is, overall, a better paper imo, even if they do bloody annoy me sometimes.

  58. Oh noes! Not a millipede piece.

    Will it ruin my good mood, Sheff?

    Think I will give it a miss.

  59. Who knows Leni? Seems I've been deleted from PB's thread for calling the mods humourless jobsworths or some such thing. Am definitely transferring my allegiance to the Indie.

  60. @sheff:

    It's a bit of a mess, isn't it?

    Shame he'll never get to read the responses though. Some wannabe wonk will be getting that pleasure (and no doubt having a bloody good laugh while he/she does so).

    "Someone please remind me that the use of violence is ultimately futile....."

    I can't.

  61. Well thats weird....Princesse's crit of the mods on PB's piece has completely vanished - it might never have been there. why do they vanish some and just put deleted by mods etc on others?

  62. Swifty

    The way I'm feeling at the moment if I had a kalashnikov, I'd be oiling it lovingly now....

  63. Sheff

    They are doing the same on milibug - usually it means they are replies to deleted posts but not today.

    I suspect they are trying to hide the number of deletions.

    The whole thing has become even more of a farce.

  64. @Sheff:

    Re. the disappearing of posts... the way one of the mods explained it to me, a post is "vanished" if it refers to a previously "This comment has been deleted..." post.

    It's a bit of a con, to be honest... at least if there was a marker for each of these kind of "chain deletions", it would give an accurate picture of the moderating activity on the thread.

  65. blattibutt
    13 Aug 2010, 4:55PM
    A number of newspapers and media organizations have been alerted to the censorship that is taking place on this thread to protect David Miliband, as well as the fact that entire deleted posts are being removed to hide the amount of protest that is taking place. The counting has already begun.


    From the millibug thread - before it vanishes.

  66. @Sheff:

    "The way I'm feeling at the moment if I had a kalashnikov, I'd be oiling it lovingly now...."

    LOL, but remember, "angry" is truly the worst time to be around guns. "Calm" (or failing that, "shit scared but focused") is much, much better.

  67. Philip Green. Fucking hell, that's just to rub our noses in it,really. Doesn't make any sense at all on any practical level.
    That Milliband thread. Jesus, you'd think somebody,somewhere within (New) Labour and/or the Guardian towers set might at some point twig how viscerally he is disliked (and with many good reasons)?
    Just parking this comment by the way from LordMetroland, who is surely someone from here, and I've inklings as to who.Can't see this staying up long, but made me smile.

    Jessica Reed

    I'm wondering if maybe somewhat..one of them unpaid interns who whoever..could see if they can track down Matt Seaton. (someone told me they'd seen him sweeping up at Kwikfit in Stockport). I think you should try and persuade him to write a piece called "How the Dream Turned Sour."
    I'm sure he never let on but I bet at the start he saw himself as a future media highroller..new high tech platform; a chance to set and test the limits of the medium of the new millenium; a 'progressive' government in power who he thought he could probably influence with his statesman-like interventions in debates of his choosing; I bet he was full of it.

    How did he feel when his posts were ridiculed?

    ..when his fiats from on high failed to generate the right response...the envisaged steady hand on the tiller steering the liberal consensus was instead 'traduced' as pretentious and condescending?

    ...when he discovered to his consternation that 'respected Oxbridge journalists' were meant to operate on a level playing field, were afforded no real deference or prestige anywhere outside of their own heads and had their bullshit declaimed just like anybody else.

    ...when the supposed army of 'nice', 'progressive', 'relativist', 'typical Guardian readers' failed to materialise, read, respect and revere him.

    He must have been sorely disillusioned. I think it would make a very interesting article."

  68. I think shit scared would be accurate swifty...and I'll have to work on the 'focused'.

    Think I'll do that thing we Brits are so famous for in times of stress and have a nice cup of tea...

  69. Apolgies in advance if i,m repeating what's already been said but the level of moderation on Cif today is so OTT it would be laughable if the important issue of freedom of speech wasn't at stake here.Some threads seem to have been given such a pasting there's almost no point in trying to read them.Not the Guardian,s finest hour IMO.

  70. Ben2
    13 Aug 2010, 5:07PM
    13 Aug 2010, 2:54PM
    Staff Please be aware that comments unrelated to the subject of the article will be removed.

    My comment was regarding David Millibands absolute failure to take any effective action while in government regarding this, and that his rather late conversion to supporting things like democracy and amnesty international (an organisation that has produced volumes of criticism of him and his government) seems suspiciously timed considering that virtually 100% of Labour Party rank and file members are in favour of democracy in Burma and he is standing for leader of the Labour Party.

    I also think discussion of complicity in rendition and torture in foreign countries is valid, given his 'support' of democracy in Burma does not extend to our allies in the War on Terror, and this seems hypocritical.


    More parking - Ben2 parked it on waddya - already deleted as is one from Metroland.

  71. There's an excellent scheme here for those who'd like to comment on journalism in the real world...

  72. Milliband seems to be so universally hated, and not just by right-wingnuts - that I am astounded that anyone in New Labour could believe he would be the right man for leader, frankly.

    Looking today at the front page, we see that Babar Ahmed's TSG attackers are being charged with ABH, that there is a serious call for an inquest into the death of Dr Kelly - and the ConDems are not ruling it out - so it isn't going to be long before some other very smelly New Labour chickens come home to roost too. Millipede is up to his neck in it all as the Foreign Minister who lied in the High Court in the Binyam Mohamad case.

    He is damaged goods, as well as being indescribably oleagenous.

  73. BB

    I think what passes these days for the LP must have completely lost the plot if they really think that the millipede, or any of the other candidates for that matter, would be an acceptable leader.

    How much more out of touch is it possible to be? Milli's piece on cif demonstrates that he and the whole chatterati class seem to be operating on another planet.

  74. sheff - if the crossword is the only thing keeping you with the G, they are all up online and printable for free (ha! screw you, murdoch)


  75. Bonsoir all, a little bit of Jay to cheer you up ?

    12 Aug 2010, 3:33PM

    "A few ritual checks – more akin to tender caresses – and then that moment of silence, like the expectant stillness at the starting pistol, before an electronic whirl fires the beast into life. Today, I am travelling on another epic, verbose ego trip in which my caddish charms will be displayed for all to see.

    For I am not merely a gifted rhetorician in the body of a finely chiselled hunk of masculinity, I am also a rather wealthy FX trader. Its likely my watch costs more than your house. I dont know if i told you, but I live in France now. I am a public intellectual too daring for most people to understand, a maverick. I'll waste no time with Islamofascists and their apologists, and I'll spare no feelings either. I am a sort of suave cross between Tony Blair, JS Mill and Jack Bauer.

    I am a mixture of brilliance that exhausts as much as it exhilarates. That sounds dramatic, I know, but that's because it is. On a bike, we are the drama. On a blog, I am the blog.
    I twist the throttle and the giddying surge of power sheds the bike of its slow-speed weight, firms the balance and allows me to pitch and roll her around a snaking convoy of traffic with the poise and ease of a ballerina. I once caught my reflection in the side mirror as i was hurtling along in Tuscany - I was so stunned by the beauty of what I saw that I nearly crashed.

    I'm now seated in the gently curving window of a cafe in Tours. Though passers by may not say it, I can see their thoughts - that is one seriously great guy sitting there.

    Yes, yes I am. I am Peter Bracken."

    XXXX !

  76. does having both millibandi up on the site at once constitute either cruel and unusual punishment or a nightmare for the mods or both?

  77. oh frog, bless you for keeping it!

    (it was deleted? ffs...)

  78. bloody hell, that greater crested miliband article is complete chaos.

    just going to park this in case it gets fucked up on the second sweep:

    CommunityMod said:
    Please be aware that comments unrelated to the subject of the article will be removed.

    Fine. Let's stay on-topic then.

    We went into Iraq because we were so concerned about the liberty and welfare of the people there. The US went with us. We went into Afghanistan for much the same reasons, and the US went there with us too.

    Are we just making soothing noises at Burma, rather than direct military action, because (a) their liberty and welfare aren't as important, (b) their liberty and welfare are under less threat or (c) because the Americans didn't go in there, so we're not trotting along after them?

    Or (d) because there's no oil there?

  79. Not only modded, but vapourised . I clipped it, and then thought - " would they really ...? " and you have the result !

  80. @frog and Philippa

    If Jay's post was vapourised at some point, it's back now. I just had a look.

  81. Phillipa

    You're an angel - I didn't know you could get them free!!

  82. sorry about that, but worth a re-read at any rate :)

    I think perhaps I looked for 3.13 instead of 3.33PM .

  83. sheff - trust me, i wouldn't have lasted this long in france without regular updates as to how crackers auraucaria is acting this week...

  84. Audit commission is to be scrapped. According to the news they weren't told till 10am this morning - no discussions - straight out the blue. 2000 jobs.

    Plans seem to be privatisation - possible mutualisation - and/or management buyout.

  85. heheheheh.

    am imagining the scene in the mods office.

    "thank fuck for that, the Milliband article is now shut for comments!"
    "oh, thank christ..."
    "blimey, that was a tough one"
    "how many you zap?"
    "stopped counting at 30 - you?"
    "tried to keep count, but they just kept coming, it was so fast, I couldn't think - just kept my finger on the trigger, hoped to hell I got them all..."
    "I think a few may have managed to get away."
    "well, after we've had a beer, we can go back in and mop up the wounded."
    "aye - best to start memory-holing, too, at the moment it just looks bloody awful."
    "good idea - i'll just have a quick look to make sure it's...oh holy fuck!"
    "what? what?"
    "some bastard's put up a piece on philip green by madsen sodding pirie!"
    "oh my god! back to your positions, everyone!"
    "has it started? has anyone mentioned the adam smith institute?"
    "of course they bloody have! I'm going to bloody kill whoever put that up!"
    "oh my god....I just can't take it any more!"
    "Be strong tarquin! we'll make it! we'll make it..."


    (sound of gunfire)

  86. bloody hell, sheff. think i know a couple of them.
    "The commission's inspection duties will now pass to Whitehall spending watchdog the National Audit Office, while its in-house audit practice will be transferred to the private sector."
    well, the NAO's a nightmare to deal with. and not always in a good way (annoying auditors do tend to be better than non-annoying auditors - auditors are supposed to be annoying). but they're pretty good. but what they're good at is audit.

    which will now be farmed out? fuck me. there's only a couple of firms big enough to take on jobs that big. and they are very very very expensive. and delight in 'expanding their role'. you thought the DCLG figures included a lot of 'consultants', wait until this kicks in.

    "A source at the commission told the BBC that moving some of the auditing into the private sector could end up costing more because private accountancy firms charge more than it does."
    Could end up costing more? No shit, sherlock...

  87. PhilippaB - blessing returned, but hope to have it back some other day :)

  88. Good work frog2! I've had mild headache for the last 36 hrs, which is weird as I usually never have them, bar hangovers... I think it's the stress of realising that in less than 12 wks i'm gonna be a jobseeker again. Cif is going to the dogs just now, kinda know how Nap/Chas must have been feeling. Best wishes if you're lurking there mate : )

  89. Thanks for keeping that for us, Frog.

    It has to be said it was a wonderful bit of satire.

    Turm - sorry to hear you are going to be looking for work again :S

  90. aye, that sucks, Turm. anything on the horizon?

  91. That's crap news turm. I hope something else turns up for you quickly.


    Bloody good job I didn't preen about that, but it's worth reading again at any rate :)

    Turm, BBB, i hope to merit thanks another day.

  93. Oh well

    Time to start the juke-box up? I've got a beer on the go already...

    How about something topical?

  94. ah, damnit, have to go out instead of sitting comfortably and getting sloshed listening to tunes. have fun all!

  95. Aye a cold bottle of cider here too! Here's my fave TW! P-Br4x is whining on waddya, frog2...

  96. turminderxuss

    Sorry to hear about the work situation.But as i suggested to charlie earlier on now is the time to start applying for temporary xmas jobs-eg post office,retail,leisure etc.Dunno where you live so have no idea what the potential is.Worth thinking about though if you,re stuck for work.Also the Census takes place next year and temporary workers are often drafted in for that.So that could be another temporary option for the New Year.All the best.

  97. Philippa - Nice post about the mod office, cheers.

    Am I being unduly cynical about the madness of scrapping the Audit Commission? So they are getting rid of a public department to replace it with private business? Is this even likely to save money? Oh I'm sure some friends of the Tory leadership will be better off, and lets face it 2000 people is just a cost/profit statistic to these people. Not for them the uncertainty and misery. The despair of suddenly being unable to support your family or plan for the future. Oh no such experience is below them.

  98. Right, let's get this joint jumpin'! I have a couple of apps in the pipeline, but ain't holding my breath..

  99. Hi Turm

    I've only got 163 champagne bottles of real f2 Normandy cider left ;)the kids keep taxing my stock as it was rather good this year.

    A newcomer here, do you have a family ? That makes unemployment even harder ? Will go see the major.

  100. Heard this in a pub the other day, and realised that the 80s weren't the complete musical waste of space that I fail to remember when asked.

  101. Hi RB, it's just more of the ultra short termism we can expect from the condems.. Only hope is that the shortest term is theirs!

    Thanx Paul, I live in a tiny village on the Scottish Border, so there ain't a lot of arts marketing jobs around!

    I've put this up b4, but it does cheer me up!

  102. Speaking of the 80s, here's another yeasayer track that's a bit synthtastic. I fancy them apples frog deux! Westons organic for me.. I have a girlfriend, she has two kids, but we don't live together. Swings & roundabouts, I like my space, but miss her and the wains. She'd loose a packet in HB/CT rebate etc if we cohabited, still < 10 years till the wee lad moves out ; )

  103. turm - i see I was honoured with an attack by peter ! Normally I starve them, but gave him just a small crumb.

    NN all !

  104. Hello All

    Don't often post here any more but sometimes look by, and just wanted to say that JayReilly's post on the Bracken thread was one of the funniest things I've read on CiF for a long time, and Bracken's attempts to belittle it even funnier. It is bizarre that it was deleted, not least because it had been up for over a day anyway. But the modding on that thread was weird in general - quite innocuous comments cut when quite offensive ones were allowed to stand. What CiF are doing putting up articles as feeble as that is a mystery, anyway - I guess it is just about racking up site hits.

    Apart from Jay's post, the stand out comment for me was from someone called weRallinthistogether:

    "For all Mr Bracken's claims that this was just a few scribbled lines, carelessly jotted down in some idle moments and that he is impervious to and unconcerned with the mocking and catcalling from the stalls, the truth is probably quite different.

    Mr Bracken wants to be seen as a serious writer with important, big ideas. The big ideas side of things has so far worked out badly, so this was writing over which he laboured, crafting and caressing the words into the exact shape he wanted. This was written to impress and its failure will be deeply and keenly felt.

    It is hard to know where Mr Bracken will go from here, since he seems to have exhausted all the ideas which feature in whatever he writes: the army; trading in financial markets; his views on the political sphere; motorbikes.

    The combative style with which anyone who makes a comment or adopts a standpoint which does not chime with Mr Bracken's own could be seen as a roughty-toughty, self-assured, blokeish type of response but is more likely to be the desperation of someone cut adrift and drowning without the assurance of agreement or obedience.

    Mr Bracken does not see ideas and opinions and viewpoints as things which are shared around, examined, dropped, chipped and polished as they pass from person to person, but as some kind of weird monolithic weapons.

    You beat someone, inflict damage or steamroller your enemies into surrender with ideas. You have to be seen to win and they have to admit they have lost. There is no mutuality or evolution or development - basically, no element of human interaction on an everyday, mundane level - because it is a war of attrition. You are with me or against me. I am right and you are wrong.

    It seems to be a very precarious, insecure, incomplete and adolescent way to live life. People who think and have their ideas undermined or trashed are able to laugh and say, 'Yes, I got it wrong. I was obviously talking rubbish and I can see that your way of looking at it is much better.'

    That is basically what happens on the ground, over a lot of time and almost invisibly, during the bits between the whizz-bangs and devastation which pock-mark and highlight the big events.

    That is how we get to make motorbikes and roads and linen suits."

    Whether the reception to this piece will make Bracken reflect a little, if only on his writing style, who knows? My impression is that he is pretty lacking in self-awareness, so probably not. Still, that must have provided us with the most amusing thread since the Mike Read debacle all those years ago.

    Peter G.

  105. Turminderxuss

    I can see that living in the middle of nowhere may well limit even any temporary options.But on a positive note most people do find something eventually.Good luck.

    Nice tune/Crap video

  106. Ah a jukebox aye? This sums up how I've been feeling this week. Well I've got my rum and snacks on the go, welcome to the weekend :D

    I'm lucky enough to be going to university in October (amusingly as a 'mature' student:-) It's the culmination of three years planning but I still count my blessings. Although I've still got to find some kind of part-time employment whilst studying.

    Oh and out of interest what is waddya? I keep seeing it referred to, obviously a blog of some description, but my critical faculties have failed to work out which one.

  107. Hi Peter G(uillam per chance?)

    It's interesting you should refer to the greatness of Mike Read as that was the first thing that came into my mind after reading the Bracken Affair. OK I tell a lie it was the second thing that came into my mind with the first being 'repressed much?'

  108. R u Peter Guilliam Peter? Tune! It's the u tell us (n we'll ignore u) thread from the groan RB, what you off to study?

  109. ratboy waddya here .

    what do you want to talk about RHS of Cif frontpage.

  110. Cheers frog. It's almost painfully obvious now. Always the way though is it not? It's not a part of Cif I've frequented that often for some reason.

  111. To be praised by PeterGuillam is high praise indeed.

  112. >>'repressed much?'

    LOL. His modded comment to frog2 about being Jay's bitch, vaseline etc. had me thinking, "the lady protests too much" Think I'll get a jar in the pub, back in a bit chums. Shit, this is nearly 20 years old...

  113. Hi Ratboy

    Yes - Guillam, should have said.

    It was like the Read thread because what made Read so funny was the pomposity of it, coupled with a complete lack of awareness of how ridiculous he was. That said, the comments on Read were truly hilarious and ran to over 1000 - the first time so far as I recall that that had happened on cif. The Bracken thread looks as if it will fall far short of that, and the modding has been severe (was there any modding on the read thread? Not that I recall). On the other hand, the Read thread lacked comments from the author himself - Bracken's cri de coeur this morning being especially peculiar - so, given that, I suppose either has a claim to being the funniest cif thread ever. Some people thought the Max Gogarty thread was in the same league, but I didn't think so because at the end of the day Gogarty was just some poor kid on an internship or whatever, whereas Read and Bracken are (suppodedly) grown men.

    Anyway, it all adds to the gaeity of nations, I suppose.

  114. Hi Turminder. You said:

    "R u Peter Guilliam Peter? Tune! It's the u tell us (n we'll ignore u) thread from the groan RB, what you off to study?"

    Sorry, I'm probably being thick, but I don't understnad this!

  115. PeterG

    You do realize you are now a candidate for Jay,s harem as well.Best go out and find yourself a tub of vaseline.

  116. Hi Paul

    Vaseline brings me out in a rash. Didn't see the post you are referring to by the way, but I think I can guess. Not really a harem kind of fellow, anyway.

  117. We could do a bulk order as Jay has at least a hundred 'supporters'. I'm sure Philip Green would approve of such economy.

  118. Good evening.

    Still catching up as been awol for a bit, but the Bracken thread is damn good reading!

    And I was vaporised on the Millipede thread for agreeing with memo that the extreme moderation there merited boycotting, or summat like that :)

  119. Only caught up to a few hours ago, but I see that Jay's post has been deleted. Suspecting such treachery, I saved it:

    "A few ritual checks – more akin to tender caresses – and then that moment of silence, like the expectant stillness at the starting pistol, before an electronic whirl fires the beast into life. Today, I am travelling on another epic, verbose ego trip in which my caddish charms will be displayed for all to see.

    For I am not merely a gifted rhetorician in the body of a finely chiselled hunk of masculinity, I am also a rather wealthy FX trader. Its likely my watch costs more than your house. I dont know if i told you, but I live in France now. I am a public intellectual too daring for most people to understand, a maverick. I'll waste no time with Islamofascists and their apologists, and I'll spare no feelings either. I am a sort of suave cross between Tony Blair, JS Mill and Jack Bauer.

    I am a mixture of brilliance that exhausts as much as it exhilarates. That sounds dramatic, I know, but that's because it is. On a bike, we are the drama. On a blog, I am the blog.

    I twist the throttle and the giddying surge of power sheds the bike of its slow-speed weight, firms the balance and allows me to pitch and roll her around a snaking convoy of traffic with the poise and ease of a ballerina. I once caught my reflection in the side mirror as i was hurtling along in Tuscany - I was so stunned by the beauty of what I saw that I nearly crashed.

    I'm now seated in the gently curving window of a cafe in Tours. Though passers by may not say it, I can see their thoughts - that is one seriously great guy sitting there.

    Yes, yes I am. I am Peter Bracken."

  120. memo? I mean Nemo.

    I've typed 'nemo' 3 times now (without the commas, obv), and it keeps changing to 'memo' when I hit the next key. What the f'ck's that about? Have we still got Blogger glitches?

  121. Peter said...
    Hi Turminder. You said:

    "R u Peter Guilliam Peter? Tune! It's the u tell us (n we'll ignore u) thread from the groan RB, what you off to study?"

    Sorry, a bit stream of consciousness there..

    Hello Peter, I see that you have now confirmed that you are Peter Guillam.

    Here {up there} is a tune I am fond of, although in a bit of a crap live version : (

    Ratboy, here {up there} is {was} a link to waddya, by the way, what are you going to be studying at uni?
    Catch u in 3 pints! : )

  122. I liked this in the sidebar to the Straw article on Green:
    Questions persist about high street retail boss's tax arrangements, as he calls journalist 'fucking tosser' when asked about his financial affairs

    Charmant !

  123. Hi PeterG

    For some of the reasons you outlined your namesake doesn,t always do himself any favours.Yet whether he likes it or not he has become a bit of a Cif Celeb-in the broadest sense of the word.And if he injected a bit more humour and self awareness in his btl inter-actions it would take some of the edge off the responses he gets from people-who still wouldn,t agree with him but it would nevertheless become less personalised.

  124. Peter - I hope Turminder doesn't mind but I can translate his post for you.

    Are you Peter Guilliam Peter?

    Tune! (hyperlink to an awesome tune)

    It's the you tell us (and we'll ignore you) thread from the guardian Ratboy, what you off to study?" (in response to my previous question)

    (Apologies if that was pretentious btw, just trying to help. Although I'm sure their is a marketable skill in spending too much time on the interweb;-)

    @Turminder - I'm going to study Politics and Philosophy. I thought I'd do an interesting non-degree just to spite all those Tories. (I love SC btw, I still play the Culture ship game via email with friends. (Insert More Gravitas, MSV)

  125. Good music, as always, starting off with Tom Waits was a bit of a turn up, but good stuff. Soldiers of Jah, was a good call, too, Ratboy.

    To carry on Turminder and Paul's slightly funky theme, here's a bit more. (no video)

  126. PhilippaB, your mods sketch earlier made me laugh, as someone said, the other day, you really have been on top form.

  127. Turminder, Ratboy

    Oh well, I still don't get it, but then I'm an old fart. But thanks for your mint comments. Standard, innit? (As you can see I am au fait).

  128. Evening Habib /philippa

    How about a bit of La Famille

  129. Peter - I believe the term is vintage or old skool as teh yoof would say :-)

    Heyhabib - Cheers, and it's been a while since I've listened to the Chillies. That's a nice funky tune. As a continuation of my theme

    Paul - Continuing our discussion of ESA yesterday I've been discussing the possibility of collecting stats on examinations and appeal results at a nationwide level with the person who coordinates social policy with our central office. He thought it was a good idea and will forward on the idea. Although I suspect the main limitation will be resources.
    On Wednesday I will be seeing if other members of my team think there is merit in trying to implement a policy of reporting health professionals to the GMC who consistently have their medicals overturned on appeal.

  130. Ratboy

    The more i think of it the more i feel that approach may bear fruit.Medical professionals can,t be allowed to get away with the excuse that they are simply 'following orders' if the decisions they are repeatedly making are not only overturned on appeal but are causing claimants great distress in the process.

  131. Hi Yoots

    That Bracken thread is good entertainment, long may it run.

    Good tunes folks, here's a change of pace. Thauma may even like this.


  132. Habib#

    Just caught your post from the other night...erm..?

    WTF happened to you?

    used to have a dose of Rice Crispies up your sleeve

    You're turning into Claire Rayner mate

  133. Ha ha, sorry Monkeyfish, it's me being a twat, I'm afraid - I'm going the opposite way in terms of weight.

  134. Hey Boudican!!! That was good fun.
    Your song reminded me of another cover.

  135. Reminded me of this, Monkeyfish. Fuck me - I am Claire Rayner.

  136. Back frm the pub, but have to crash, thanx 4 the tunes, will catch up onthe thread tmra. Love u all! 1ness of juju, v.double plus good!

  137. @RB, PP no E? Not Embra is it? NN all. P xxx

  138. At 21.54 exactly me computer switched itself on and let out a burst of foul smelling hot air.And then THIS TUNE started playing.

  139. Hi Boudican

    Am hearing stories that Canada,s booming cannabis growing 'industry' is in trouble if California legislates to make growing it legal there.Apparently up to 90% of Canadian output goes south of the border and has been keeping the yanks mellow for years.Hope all,s well with you.

  140. Hi Paul

    Not sure of the veracity of those stories but will look into it more. I do know that other countries are producing some very good marijuana these days so 'BC bud' probably doesn't have the cachet it once did. Can also attest that the quality of local pot is very high. Peer reviewed you know. (-: Also, not sure if the right Yanks are staying mellow, if you get my meaning. Some of the neocons could do with a bit of earthy enlightenment.

    The legion beckons, must be away. Take it easy.

    P.S.--Good dogged effort on the ATOS stuff by you, Leni and others.

  141. Just called by and noticed that the 100,000th visitor to UT has just looked in !!

  142. Have a good evening Boudican!

    Me No Pop I for everyone else.

  143. This comment has been removed by the author.

  144. That's 100,000 since Montana installed the counter a few months ago - anybody take a note of when the visitor counter was installed?

  145. Early nite for me - I'm back on the son's building site tomorrow, so it's goodnight from me after a quick fly by.

    (sorry to leave just as you arrived - it wasn't something you said Original!)

  146. Hey there original ! Long time no see. Likewise Deano !

    In between gigging, working, seeing sick mum-in law and general pratting about. Off to Surrey at stupid oclock in morning so not hanging around for tunage, but I am happy to discover this:

    ...daft... but the most excellent song of the summer I've heard - from Best
    Coast ....

  147. Very, very nice tune Paul. Be cool.

  148. This comment has been removed by the author.

  149. This comment has been removed by the author.

  150. Hello everyone. Does anyone have a link to the Jimmy Reid (Rat Race) speech to the "UCS".
    I know the Indy printed it and I could no doubt track it down myself but or some reason I can't fathom, my computer is on a "go slow".
    Any attempt at a link results in watching that bloody egg timer and swearing at it as the clock ticks over!

  151. Heh heh, ok, understood 'riginal.

    Got to go in a minute. I'm usually up til dawn on these Friday nighters but kind of a big deal on tomorrow. Catch you soon.

    PS, this will propbably make most people hurl but I like it ...


    Frog outfit...

  152. This comment has been removed by the author.

  153. This comment has been removed by the author.

  154. In case you need a kick in the brain to stay awake. Like most SOAD tunes it's all about the lyrics.

  155. Original, you know if you run "One Too Many Mornings" in three windows, seconds after each other, you get a nice and strange little bounce going.

    Bitterweed, I'm liking Nungan.

  156. @chekhov

    There's a full PDF version of the Reid speech here.

  157. This comment has been removed by the author.

  158. And the Independent's version is here.

  159. Nah, that's just me and Hank having a fight.

  160. Chekhov

    Is this the speech you are looking for?

    I've read it four times already today. If anything it's more relevant today than in 1972 because we see the result of the problems that Jimmy Reid warned against. Why is there nobody of his caliber in the Trade Union movement today? Meh, consider that a rhetorical question.

  161. (sorry, PeterJ and Ratboy), original - your "terribly wrong to like this" link doesn't work - what's the music?

  162. This comment has been removed by the author.

  163. Thanks for that link Peter J.

    I'm off. See youse soons.

  164. The clicking fingers reminded me of this: (sorry).

    Well, PeterJ might appreciate it, after his ABC declaration.

  165. I bought that as a 12in single, habib.

    This is rather good too.

  166. What teh fuck! Does anyone else get the feeling that the ConDems are seeing how far they can push us in advance of the spending review?

  167. Superb, PeterJ, the memories come flooding back. (Fylde a few years later, by the way).

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  171. Bloody hell, Ratboy. The words of this seem rather appropriate here.

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  175. Fylde, eh, habib? They were building that in my time - the bar opened in my last year, and sold the only real beer on the site. Spent quite a lot of time in there.

  176. Peter
    That speech was fucking awesome. I have relayed it to quite a few mates just tonight. Timless.

    Now - sublime to ridiculous - here's a tunefor anyone who's ever posted here and felt like they're pissing in the wind.

    Chas and Dave !

    nightnight !!!

  177. Is this insomniacs annonymous?Great!Lifetime membership please.

    Premier League Football Season starts today and my team Spurs will be kicking Man City,s ass as per.

    In the meantime a tune !

  178. Peter J, I wonder if Ron was the licensee, back then. Best landlord you could ever have - miserable bastard who never liked anyone much and told us all when we were being dicks.

  179. @PeterJ - cracking shout on Temptation. The Heaven Seventeen were of course a popular beat combo in Burgess's "A Clockwork Orange", pop-pickers.

    Not sure about your follow-up track though. Genesis? They were a bunch of wankers even before Phil Collins went into tax exile.

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  181. Can't recall, habib. I'm still shocked by the fact that John the Bastard, barman at Lonsdale while I was there, only retired a couple of years ago - it came round in the alumni email. He went ballistic when he realised I was celebrating my 18th birthday in his bar after drinking in there for six months.


    This unfounded confidence in Tottenham's prowess can only return, as ever, to bite you in the backside. Let's see tomorrow PM, eh?

  182. Ah, Hank; it was an ironic comment on Ratboy's link about Cameron planning to flog off the national parks.

  183. Thanks for the links everyone. That was forty years ago! And we are all stuck in the same rut forty years later! When will we learn that we are being taken for a ride by the "neo-liberal" consensus that dictates there is no other way?
    How much longer before we have to say "enough is enough"?
    The free market "laissez faire" model has been shown up for the scam it really was.
    We are all in deep doo doo for falling for it and yet our politicians want to get the "train wreck" back on the rails.
    "Go figure" as the yanks say: someone somewhere stands to make a lot of money. "Never let a crisis go to waste" and all that!

  184. @ PeterJ - You're a bad man, due to the announcement that has me seething I've found myself 'enjoying' a Genesis song. This dichotomy almost caused my brain to melt :P

    On the plus side at least the selling off of national nature reserves can be resisted in a straight forward manner through direct action.

  185. Peter J

    Brave talk but where was it ManCity finished last season?And Spurs?

    In the meantime some Raw Silk

  186. @PeterJ - heheh, Paul's a Spuz fan.

    Why am I not surprised?

  187. Ratboy

    I hope you - or your workmates - will be able to collect some useful stats. I rather like the idea of targetting individuals who put their own bonuses before the welfare of others. Bit of naming and shaming. Too many faceless people getting away with too much. Which area are you in ?

    Selling off the nature reserves ? These people are clearly mad, have no understanding of anything. Difficult to know how much of what we are hearing is kite flying and how many are concrete proposals.

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