17 March 2010


Okay.  The fact that today is St. Patrick's Day has caused me way more angst than it should have when it comes to getting today's thread up.  For one thing, it's my understanding that St. Patrick's Day is a much bigger deal here than it is in Ireland and that Irish SPD celebrations tend to be for the benefit of idiot American tourists (someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong -- it won't hurt my feelings).  For another, Americans with Irish ancestry tend to suffer what I call "Shamrock & Shillelagh Syndrome" -- a simplistic and overly-romanticised notion of Ireland and a tendency to identify themselves as Irish first, American second, regardless of whether they actually know anything beyond the fact that they have an Irish surname.  I've always (well, since I was a teenager, anyway) found this as irritating as the 1/16th Cherokee ancestry that nearly every white person in America will claim to have.  Having Irish ancestry myself (no -- really), I have an almost allergic reaction to the whole thing.  So, even though most of you wouldn't have known that I have Irish ancestry, I just couldn't bring myself to treat today the way I did St. Andrew's Day or St. David's Day.  It would have felt like I'd come down with S & S Syndrome, if only for a day.  So, Thauma & Scherfig:  Happy St. Patrick's Day or not.  It's your call.

Now that I have that out of the way:  Edward, the Black Prince, became the first Duke of Cornwall in 1337.  Stephen Perry received a patent for the rubber band in 1845 and 919 members of a Ugandan cult called the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments were killed/committed suicide in 2000.

Born today:  Gottlieb Daimler (1834-1900), Kate Greenaway (1846-1901), Mikhail Vrubel (1856-1910), Nat "King" Cole (1919-1965), Rudolf Nureyev (1938-1993), Paul Kantner (1941), John Sebastian (1944), Kurt Russell (1951), Lesley-Anne Downe (1954), Gary Sinise (1955), Clare Grogan (1962), Rob Lowe (1964), Billy Corgan (1967) and Stephen Gately (1976-2009).


  1. Well, this has to be done, so I may as well be the one to do it:

    Happy Birthday, Clare Grogan.

  2. One of the paradoxes about the US is that while Americans tend to be very proud of being Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc - and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, at all - they also tend to talk about 'Europe' as if it were one country, rather than thirty-odd, with radically different cultures and histories.

    It's a 'geographical expression', as Metternich (or was it Bismarck?) put it.

    But 'Erin go bragh', Montana, anyway!

  3. I don't have any Irish antecedents, although there's a rumour that my great grandfather, Gustavus Adolphus Jackson, was born in Belfast. It's only a rumour as he was an elusive man; his birth certificate may or may not have been destroyed when the Germans bombed the Belfast records office in WW2. The name might be a bit of a hint, though.

    Anyway, happy SPD to those with more definite links to the green (or, in my case, more probably orange).

  4. One of my grandfathers was a Belfast welder called William McGonagall (seriously - and no relation to the poet as far as we know)

    I know an Irish guy in the US who shares your annoyance with the Irish 'thing'- especially with regard to the IRA - but it's more understandable than the Scots thing can be, what with Birth of a Nation and Braveheart and that whole Klan/Confederate shtick.

    You get some interesting political machinations though: when SNP people go to the US they get feted by people like Trent Lott (founder of Tartan Day and so right-wing Bush disowned him), but when Trenty baby comes to Scotland he gets a rather more muted reception from his nat pals.

    The only publicly acceptable racism in Scotland these days is directed at young Scots who choose to play for the Republic of Ireland rather than Scotland - I heard one football commentator say of the Celtic player Aiden McGeady 'who does he think he is'.

    Happy birthday to the lovely Clare also from moi

  5. Good to see all the newcomers/occasionals yesterday, one of the busiest threads we've had for months. What with the party celebrations today there might be a few more as the mods crack down to give the party that uniquely CiF feel, armed guards keeping an eye out for anyone enjoying themselves etc...

  6. Apart from the fact that I associate the initials SPD with the "Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands", happy St. Paddy's Day to all who celebrate it!

    Also, happy birthday Rudolf Nureyev, here is the performance of yours which made you immortal.

    Okay, one of them, the other is this.

  7. Happy St Patricks day everyone. Unhappily, I don't have any Irish ancestry either (Scottish, English and obscure east European is my mix )but my youngest grandaughter on the maternal side does ad its her birthday today too - she's one year old.

  8. Oh yeah, happy St Patricks day to all, especially Turgle who is probably at the Guiness already this morning.

  9. Oh my goodness:

    " We'll change black Britain
    David Cameron: Conservatives will tackle racial inequalities by giving people what they want: a start in business"

    Thats an article just gone up.

  10. @Jay - I'm saving that one up. At the moment I'm still staring in amazement at the nearby piece by Eve Ensler.

  11. Peter - read Cameron, odious little reptile...

    I read the Eva piece...

  12. Has Eve Ensler a sideline in writing for Hallmark greetings cards? What guff.She probably means well, but can't see beyond her cosy world-view, and goodness that poem is poor.
    @Jay. Listen, listen hard. D'you hear that? It's Matt Seaton, Georgina Henry et al, trying to strike up a merry chorus of "Happy Birthday to us", but few of the guests are joining in, because the hosts have been rudely condescending,disingenuous and snarky to them all.

  13. Its alright Alistair, i got in there fast.

  14. Hadley Freeman has a good one up: The comment about being less bothered about a politician's alma mater than some other journalists who [read for yourselves, GREAT punchline] totally made my day.

  15. I claim Irish ancestory, My dad was from Donegal and celebrated his birthday on St Patricks day!I grew up on Guiness. I remember being told that we could live on Guiness and also that a Guiness drinker would never be constipated.

    Happy Birthday Joseph Emmett Murphy RIP


  16. The unruly mob will not be controlled by 'teacher' on the celebrate CiF's birthday thread.

    Funny but fluffy

  17. Have I mentioned this here before? Matt Seaton is a fucking fool.

    With any luck he can't last.

  18. Got the Kenan Malik and Elliott articles up!

    On the Malik front this is Monkeyfishs's doing, i'd never read Malik until his recommendation. Good work monkeyfish and any more book commendations would be welcome.

  19. Hi there - apologies for a stranger crashing your thread. I'm an anthropology student at university, working on a project on online interactions vs 'real world' social dynamics. This blog was pointed out to me over on CIF's birthday thread, where I'm trying to do a bit of participant observation in the best anthropological tradition, without much luck I'm afraid! I was wondering if any of you, as 'untrusted' and disillusioned with the threads on CIF, have any thoughts on how CIF interactions differ from 'real life' ones, and in particular on what's going on over on the birthday thread right now? Any and all thoughts and observations about how people interact with each other and with Guardian editors/mods would be extremely interesting to me. If you don't want me taking over this thread, I'll happily leave an email address instead (unless that goes against your privacy policies). Thanks for reading!

  20. Happy 4th birthday, Cif! Did you see what they did on the thread? They put up a big picture of Jaffa Cakes! I tell you, those Cif guys are fuckin' craaaaazy!

    On a much more serious note, the jaffa cake represents the 'third way' in politics, and as such is an accurate representation of what the Guardian stands for. Is it a cake? Is it a biscuit? Or does it fall somewhere in between? Can a mixture of chocolate, jelly and sponge be all things to all people? We at Guardian Towers like to think so. And that's why our editorial line is so 'fluent', and by that we mean that a healthy,'right-on', multicultural consciousness does not necessarily exclude a sensible, enthusiastic embracing of neoliberalism. We are, above all, pragmatists with a certain position and status to uphold and defend.

    We believe passionately in consumer choice, and what better demonstration of choice than to flog a product which is so diffuse and elusive that nobody can actually agree on what its true identity is. And yet everbody buys it! Not for us the stale, hard ship's biscuits of dour Marxism or the sickly, fluffy Battenburg of compassionate conservatism. We plough our own political furrow. Right-wing zealots are, if anything, more welcome on our talkboards than even liberal democrats. Our spectrum of identity politics is broader than any other broadsheet - from discriminated-against-dangerous-dog-owners in inner-city Nottingham to transgender teenagers in rural America, we like to think that there is a niche for all our readers. And that they can rub shoulders together on our threads and share experiences and information in a spirit of polite openness and mutual respect. And we like to think that we can make a real difference to the world.

    Unfortunately, there is a price to pay for this. Freedom of speech is definitely not free. As our glorious experiment has progressed and evolved over the last four years, we have on occasion felt it necessary to clamp down a little bit on certain posters. It has been said by a few malcontents that the majority of these posters seem to be left-wing, or unreasonably obsessed with the working classes, or dismissive of the true feminism which we espouse. If that is so, it is merely coincidence. The common factor is that they were all rude. When the febrile shrieking and cursing of socialists and misogynists drowns out the cultured discussion of Lithuanian nanny etiquette or an amusing debate on the latest episode of the Apprentice, then sadly some restrictions must be put in place. When cabinet ministers cannot, with impunity, speak honestly and forthrightly to our readers, then steps must be taken.

    But these are minor quibbles in the greater scheme of things. We believe that the 457% increase in users (not all of which are one-time trolls, party hacks, or Israeli government employees, by the way) reflects the fact that we are moving in the right direction, and will continue to go from strength to strength. With the help and support of our on-line community, about whom we care so deeply, we are sure that 'things can only get better'! So let's all raise a glass to Cif's 4th birthday!

    (Right, that's enough old bollocks, do I get the gig, Jessica? PS. I went to Oxford, my dad was a miner, my brother is gay, and my gap year was spent in Belize trying to make conditions better for Lord Ashcroft's low-paid workers.)

    Note to readers: if anyone wants to post this on the 'celebration' thread, feel free.

  21. Hi guys

    just popping in to say am still in premod (great isn't it? I get some twat say reality is all in his head and prepare to die after lots of ad homs and I get dumped in premod)

    The G is also involved tho' as I sent them a lot of stuff re my case against my old employer (U of Surrey). Libel laws guys libel laws (do you get it?)

    Have to be a bit circumspect hahaha

  22. Merci, Montana, and especially for the Norn Iron pic! We Ulsterpeople are taking over the world one thread, one cubicle at a time.

    Emily - working now, but willing to have a think in the evening.

  23. Hi Emily

    Yeah can treat as misrocosm social interX, fluid social dynamics blah

    Did vary F to F and computer mediated interX re phd.

    Comp mediated HCH (human comp human ie this stuff) increases private self awareness (fenigstein scheier self awareness private, public and soc anxiety)

    Can also see set of posts as single info flow (eg my posting from 13 feb to about 22 feb and thos eof others is single dynamic flow)

    would chat more but have to partial myself out.

  24. Hi emily

    would add identity and 'group sociogenetic' procs also v relevant.

    I model the lot when I post (highly sophisticated/ elaborated gen model tailored to individual case)

    Love to chat : )

  25. Struggling to think of anything to add to the Ensler thread that isn't "oh my fucking word".

    On the upside, article about male rape has just gone up - very good article. Would suggest this guy is retained to cover 'rape issues' in future...

  26. By the by guys (referent all)

    As far as I am concerned this study started when I began posting on Cif (I lie as it started earlier reading Cif) 2 years ago or so.

    Long term planning, huh.

  27. @JayReilly

    At the risk of continuing to bang the drum for a slight acquaintance... Amartya Sen's 'Identity and Violence' is well worth reading on the nature, role and construction of identity and how this relates to 'multiculturalism' and diversity. I haven't read any Malik apart from today's article, but they seem to agree about much - Sen gives examples from many countries and periods in history.

  28. Oh and re G/Cif I won't be bothering with it for the mo as in premod and that is so boring. So I was not invited to the party and won't drop off any presents.

    Would appreciate anyone whoi can post there saying that for me.



  29. Lavartis, yeah it's v accessible (I've read it) but actually (from my perspective) it is way undertheorized re social identity and group stuff. I like Sen.

  30. Emily - ave! for a sense of the community spirit that hasn't yet been stomped out of CIF entirely, check out the 'what do you want to talk about' thread, where the banning of one poster brought out a boatload of posters defending him against 'the man'.

    The 'online' v 'IRL' thing interests me - thing is, when you meet someone in real life you have many physical/visual 'clues', but online, you basically only have someone's ideas to respond to, without extraneous issues such as appearance etc. Whether that makes a 'relationship' more real or less real, I don't know. Arguments could be made either way.

  31. Hi All,

    Emily, you're no stranger than some of the rest of us...........

    Welcome, and if you want to continue the chat past today why not put something up on UT2?

  32. Hi Dot


    I do know, it's all social psych stuff mostly.

    Cif at four is a real bore, I can't / won't take part when I'm on x hour time delay. Frustrating or what?

    Would add Emily

    Norms of reciprocity and social exchange are relevant.

  33. Also self disclosure stuff, Altman (??) social penetration

  34. But if one takes a strong computational model of mind (as dominates current thinking) then it is all computer to computer to computer communication / interaction anyway isn't it?

    (It's wrong so don't worry we do exist and matter (does too)

    A nonbrittle theory of everything, a grand unified totalizing theory of everything a GUTTOE

  35. Hi pen,

    Fighting the urge to dismiss your and Emily's stuff as that "wishy washy psychology cr*p", as I'm sure physicists dismiss my work similarly. Would really like a thread on UT2 on it all, so you two can discuss it, and maybe I'll be the guinea pig instead of the scientist for a change...

  36. Scherf - quality post.

    Lavartis, I have a feeling Malik references Sen a few times in his Fatwa to Jihad book, actually. I just finished it, very good read.

    Emily - its an open blog, feel free to comment as you wish, rl vs online is an interesting one and would be interested to know how your work comes along. Another thing you may want to look at is meeting people rl after only knowing them online, which most of us have done here - very weird i found, but very interesting and i suspect would give plenty of useful material.

  37. Good point, Emily - if you want to write a short article explaining what you're doing and why etc and put it up in the UT2 section that would be fine.

  38. shiv wrote on the male rape thread, explaining why she saves her energy to get upset about female rape victims, amongst other things:

    "They [men] don't get judged about wearing short skirts,"

    Dammit, that. Is. So. Wrong! Those men who *do* wear them, *do* get judged for it, and probably (probability close to 1, actually) more harshly than women. That's why most men don't wear them; an option also available to women who don't like to be judged for the lengths of their skirts.

    Of course, *I* would prefer if everyone could walk around in mini skirts as short as can be, or naked, or clothed in latex, and nobody giving making any stupid comments or judgments about the people doing so, but until then, it is a cross all people who would like to dress out of the ordinary carry, regardless of their gender.

    And I *do* know I probably missed her point, but still ...

  39. @Emily

    The online community thing is fascinating; I've been involved in them since the late 1980s, when it was on bulletin boards and crude conferencing systems like Bix, Cix and TheWell. There are common patterns to online interactions, and a new language has evolved to describe them.

    Is your research restricted to Cif?

    Perhaps an article on UT2 with comments added after thought and over time would be better than a few random lines here. There's quite a bit to talk about, I think.

  40. elementary - the comments on the rape thread are largely positive and constructive, but there seem to be a couple of people sticking their fingers in their ears, going 'la la la' and holding true to the received wisdom that this is a 'male on female' situation, with nary a nod to the evidence.

    women victims of rape have to deal with ignorant shite, male victims of rape have to deal with ignorant shite. The fact that the shite may come in various forms depending on the gender of the victim is irrelevant - it's still shite. it's still rape. shite is shite. rape is rape.

    bit touchy on this issue. may relocate to the LOTR thread again, forz cheerz.

  41. Dot, don't you get it? You've all been taking part for years : ) Participant observation.

    Bohm does some good stuff on dialogue and he's hot stuff physics wise (well cool now as he dead ahhhh).


    A Pentland 2008 Honest signals: How they shape our world

    Also social network stuff in general (Traffic, flocking swarming stuff, Dot would know something here : ) )

    Add also posting / bloggig blah is a literary form so some lit theory and analysis requisite too. Social reps theory, memetics, attitude stuff

    (Do you all begin to get the point?)

    Love to all

    I'm off to lunch with my dad.

    Hope to see some fliowers : )

  42. Not that I've bothered with the thread (premod : ( )

    Where do I begin especially if I talk about my experience.

    Personally the idea of forced sex does not stir me (except to act so as to decrease its probability for all). I want to be desired and only find consensual mutual desire attractive and sexually arousing.

    Used to not wear my glasses (and have never bothered with contact lenses) so as to not have to see the moony eyes of my students and thus could ignore it (a bit).

    It was neat tho' each year another shipment of young ladies washing up at my door hahaha I was always the gentleman (that's why they told me about the other lectureres letchy ways)

  43. pen

    "Dot, don't you get it? You've all been taking part for years : ) Participant observation."

    I do, that at least. I did find myself this weekend watching a friend's experimental fish: wondering if they realised there was glass between them and the objects of their affection, then wondered at the glass we can't see.........

  44. "Anonymity has a glorious history. Works by Voltaire, Benjamin Franklin, Zoe Margolis and other great thinkers were all published under assumed names."


  45. Nice one, jay. Just as well MsR is in Cyprus. If she's seen that, she'd probably be round Ms Cook's house with a baseball bat pretty damn toot sweet.

  46. jay - oh, that's adorable! now have a mental picture of MsR storming into an internet cafe and unleashing hell...

  47. You're right, Scherf, Ms R would be beside herself with rage. We'll have to remind her of this when she's get back.

  48. What's the history with MsR....?

  49. She hates Margolis with passion, she did a parody of her on her blog.

  50. Anyone got any recommendations for films on at the cinema at the mo?

  51. Thought 'Men who hate women' / Dragon Tattoo was pretty good. and am v excited about Ghost Writer but haven't seen it yet...

    If you get the chance to see 'Cloudy with a chance of meatballs', you should definitely do it. that was out a while back, but it's brilliant...

  52. Dragon Tattoo's a film now?!! I've only just got around to buying the book to see what all the fuss is about! (and haven't started it yet, no spoilers please!)

  53. Somehow, a book/film titled "Men who hate Women" makes me think that it will be one long feminist accusation against men (i.e. the male half of the world's population) for oppressing women.

    Funnily, should I ever come across a novel/film called "Women who hate Men", I'd expect it to be one long feminist laudation for women who take brutal vengeance against the men for the ten to twenty millenia of female oppression.

    I guess I should ponder the question why the word "hate" coupled with the words "men" and "women" makes me think of feminist rantings. Guess it has something to do with the Bidishas and Bindels of this world.

  54. This is Kizbot after the naughty-step has addled her mind into submission


    Complaining about deletions is on topic, it concerns the thread, it is not abusive, it is not adhom, it does not breach guidelines (if it does, guidelines are wrong

    Guidelines don't allow it, though, Jay. It is one of the rules that talking about moderation on a thread is considered off topic. You're supposed to email them about it, not talk about it on the thread.


    Does anybody actually ever read the Talk Policy? Have folk read it?


    dagenham. It wasn't just what he said but the way he said it. I reckon he deserved to have the comment removed... But I'll never accept he deserved to be banned over it!


    Jay i'm getting the impression that the mods think you should know the policy and stick to it and that they aren't going to be too specific on threads because it's wasting resource time...

    ben To be pre-modded for it I think you have to be pretty flagrant in your disregard. The odd quip 'off-topic' isn't an issue. If it was I'd have been banned years ago!



    If you read this, Matt Seaton came out of his meeting to give me a ring.

    He says can you please put your little apron back on and make sure everyone has enough finger-food and pop at the party?

    If you manage that without mishap, you can collect your bright blue sticker with the letter "K" on it at reception.

    He mumbled something about Kapo. Do you know what he means?

    And no, I won't be going back under any other names, whatever you and the halfwit think.

  55. Hllo everybody

    Off to look at the party - Cif becomes more like a gated community than an open forum.

    I.m still allowed in - will look in thru windows first.

    Emily -hello

    Yes put something up on UT too.

  56. elementary - ay, hated the title, which is far too simplistic...but it's a decent film.

    dot - came out last year in france, only just getting general release in the UK - on a recent book blog, a swedish poster said that all the films are done and out...

  57. The films of the three books had cinema releases in Sweden in 2009.

    Män som hatar kvinnor
    Flickan som lekte med elden
    Luftslottet som sprängdes

    Although all three DVD's have now been released in Sweden, I don't think they have English subtitles.

  58. Ha Matt Seaton is so fucking snotty... He couldn't be more condescending if he tried. And I bet he does try, actually.

    Been away for a while, w*rking, what did SummerIsle get banned for?

  59. Emily, I wrote a few thinsg about that years ago - I remmber one article that started by discussing the way in which people will embrace any communication tool, no matter how crude - so things like emoticons and leet were rgabbed, but the platforms which wer enever intended for social communication, like sms for instance, were also colonised. What I liked in particular was the meme in online multiplayer shooters, where when you want to crow over a particularly satisfying kill, you will "hump" your victim - squat over him, up/down/up/down. Why? cus it's one of the few comms tools u have. People will use *anything*. banging on cell bars, knots in string...

    Comms comes first, communities, if any, second, and are *shaped* by the available technological platform on which they are based. And theya all are - right from cavemen around a campfire.

    there you go, double first, bish bash bosh.

  60. Ah, Mr PikeBishop, where you lurking these days?

  61. Just skim read the birthday thread, are we sure it's CiF that's four and not Matt Seaton?

  62. Hi guys, (Hi Frank ? pikebishop? yeah?)

    Just popping by.

    Glad to hear it Dot, yeah so do I, makes me a bit antsy sometimes but...

    Just checking out Cif now


  63. Lavartis - Guy Dammann has an article up on 'justice' after the Sen lecture.

  64. whoopee Matt is 4.

    Pen - pity you can't post.

    theory of mind and all that - developes round about age 4 - allowing children to determone intention etc. from actions of others. Matt not there yet.

    The man is a fool - and very defensive.

    Trying to post on the Dammam/Sen thread but just getting 404.

  65. Wretched comment now posted itself 3 times - makes me look like arrogant fool - I was actually only casting some thoughts into the wind.

  66. Hi again - thank you all very much indeed; some interesting thoughts and will be very helpful to my work.

    Agreed that there is a lot to talk about here, and I would love to work up some of my ideas into a short post which might be a better way of organising thoughts and discussing them. I hope you'll forgive my ignorance, but I have no experience with Blogger and can't immediately see how to post on UT2... if some kind soul has the patience to point me in the right direction it would be very much appreciated.

  67. doesnotexist's post on Waddya at 1:53 is a classic!

  68. Leni - don't worry, someone has just made themselves look extremely silly, with about 12 posts scattered over the thread like confetti...

    Emily - message montana (first poster on the thread) and she can send you the link that allows you to be 'author' on UT2 (link at the top on the right). I just did it for the first time, it's very straightforward...

  69. am also glad a couple of other people picked up on Bru's 'gay best friend' comment. not just me who thought it was belittling in the extreme, then.

  70. Hi Everyone

    Montana-really like the photo you put up today.
    Dunno why but had this feeling it was someones
    spirit moving toward a better place after they had died.And i don,t mean that it any religious

    Back to the land of the living today being St
    Patricks Day doesn,t hold any special
    significance for me.My mother was Irish Catholic
    but as a kid i can,t remember us doing anything
    special at home to celebrate the day.Primary
    school was different as my one was run by an order of tough Irish nuns who made sure no-one
    bloody forgot it.Plus on the big day the school was visited by the local priest who was known as a pisshead and would drive the nuns into a frenzy.We would be instructed to be on our best behavior with dire warnings about what would happen to those who didn,t.The nuns would then smile serenely-fucking good actresses those nuns- when the priest arrived and we would have to listen as he regaled story after story about St Patrick,Ireland and God knows what else.Sadly it was too much for some of the smaller kids who would have the inevitable
    'accident' whilst the nuns continued smiling through increasingly gritted teeth and the priest went on and on and on....Happy days!

    Nowadays in Britain i think those who make the
    biggest deal about St Patricks Day tend to be
    those who have discovered they had an Irish Great-grandmother and think that will give them
    kudos in PC circles.Plus their idea of the craic
    is to go to an Irish Themed Pub where the Irish
    Band members are actually from Moldovia and the
    bar staff are Portuguese.But they will still get hammered on Jamesons whiskey and guinness and feel they are back in touch with their roots.

    Anyway for those genuinely full-blooded Irish
    people who want to celebrate today then i hope
    you have a good time.And i hope everyone else on UT will go for the craic that does it for them.Personally we,re staying in tonight with a
    bottle of good red.

    ps Princesschipchops-Hope you,re feeling better.

    pps-PeterBracken-good to see you,ve joined UT.
    Always enjoy your posts on CIF even when i don,t
    agree with them.

  71. Afternoon all,

    Great trip to Mostar, a highlight of which was stopping off at Jablanica to visit the site of the Battle of the Neretva River (April 1943), where Tito and his partisans blew the bridge to hold off the Axis armies. The remains of the bridge and an engine are still there, kept as a monument. I've put a pic up in the gallery.

    Also great place to have lunch if you like spit roasted lamb - which they do to perfection.

  72. To be or not to be, whether 'tis nobler in the mind to tell Matt Seaton and Georgina Henry what complete bastards they are, or to post it and thus end any CiF participation.

    Honestly, how much more shitty can those two be?

  73. Sheff - sounds like you are having a blast!

  74. @Atomboy:

    I enjoyed rednorth's comment on that subject. Is it just me or is she trying to have it both ways? On the one hand, she's saying that she doesn't think LordS should have been banned (even though she can understand why the comment was deleted). On the other, she's telling everyone that the talk policy is perfectly clear and that no one should have trouble understanding it and staying within it.

    If the talk policy is so fair, easy to understand and follow, then LordS's banning must have been totally warranted. If his banning was unjust, then there must be issues with the talk policy that need to be addressed. 'Cos we all know that Kiz is far too scrupulous to think that there should be one set of rules for the commenters she likes and one set for the ones she doesn't like, right?

    Still, it was nice for Georgina and Matt to finally be upfront about the fact that they hold the regular BTL contributors in utter contempt.

    @Thauma: It was either Giant's Causeway (and isn't that a beautiful shot of it?) or this.

    @Leni: I wouldn't worry about the multiple posts. It's a pretty common occurrence any more and everyone knows why it happens.

    @Emily: If you want to put something on UT2, e-mail me at: thewildhackATgmailDOTcom. You can either send the article to me and I'll put it up for you or, once I have an e-mail address for you, I can send you the "contributor invitation". Once you accept that, you can post your own stuff there.

  75. Montana - thank you! Our messages must have just crossed threads; I've sent you an email. Thanks again to everyone for the thoughts and suggestions so far!

  76. Happy Paddy's Day from a recovering-alchoholic Irishman who can't drink on St. Patrick's Day. Sobriety sucks.

    On a brighter note, I'm on strike from CiF for however long LordS's ban lasts. If that's indefinitely, no biggy. It means I have more time on the UT, as I have to spray my hose somewhere.

  77. Hi Leni, yeah so true haha

    Hi Emily :)

    Hi Montana (sorry : ) )

    Hi HeyHabib nice to see you : ) hope you've enjoyed some of my offerings.

    Re the oirish, my wife's irish and american, two passports yeah (my daughter plans to get three).

    I'm the only one with one in my family, also get the short end og the shitty stick. Ah well

  78. hey eddie - good post from you on waddya.

  79. pen, entangled my mind and made me sift through it. Lovely, thank you.

  80. Evening all.

    Not here for long as skiving when I should be working. Meh.

    Going out later too.

    Love Scherf's comment about jaffa cake equals third way. :o)

    Checked out the birthday thread. well done Jay for the first post on it.

    Over to waddya then I really must look at some more bits of paper. Double meh.

  81. observation for St. Pat's day.

    shamrock comes in several varieties - oxalis or wood sorrel. I have a creeping white flowered version which spreads across all the cracks between stones in my garden.

    Some oxalis have in fact 4 lobes to the leaf - perhaps number 4 represents the Devil? Or the whiskey?

  82. Hi pen - a delayed response to your post above: the literary criticism aspect is one I'm particularly interested in, yes! Text always has a mediating quality, which I think takes of special significance when it's two-way communication in question. I will definitely have something to say about that over on UT2.

    As for participant observation, I've never liked the sound of it myself! I'll do my best not to burn you under the magnifying glass. In all seriousness though, the emphasis is definitely on participant, not observation - I'll talk about this too in my post.

  83. Matt Seaton declares that there can be nothing wrong with the moderation on CiF, for the simple reason that the moderators are exemplary in everything and not to be questioned. 

    "...I'm not willing to debate alleged political bias on the part of moderators, because their political impartiality is simply a given." 

    We can all sleep soundly now we know that there is nothing wrong with moderation - because the people who do it are perfect.

    Ahh, bless!

    The Seaton comment:

    @ MozP:
    OK, how about unaccountable, politically motivated and inconsistent with anything in the Community Guidelines.Why won't you debate this topic? Why won't you discuss individual complaints. Why is the moderators@ email address pretty much ignored? Why are you so scared to address the issue? Both you and Georgina run away as soon as the issue is mentioned. Stop it. Do your sodding job properly.
    Hi MozP. Can I ask you something: would you speak to someone face to face in that fashion if you want them to do something?

    Putting that aside, the general point is that I'm not willing to debate alleged political bias on the part of moderators, because their political impartiality is simply a given. It would be a disciplinary matter if a moderator was acting on a partisan ideological basis. And that would be incredibly stupid, too, because it would be rankly obvious within the first 15 minutes.

    As for individual complaints, I assume you mean over deleted posts. This is where we all have to be realistic: this site generates thousands of comments every day. Moderators are having to make hundreds of judgments about deletions every shift. They are under considerable pressure. Is their judgment flawless in every case? It can't be. But neither will it be grossly wrong; and looked at in aggregate, over time, it will be fair and reasonable. We invite appeals by email, and guarantee that all are read, but the sheer scale of the enterprise means that there cannot be a judicial process for every deleted comment as of right for users. My general advice is if you get a comment deleted, you probably have a good idea why, so move on.

    But you know what? Since I'm here adddressing this now, why don't you give me a specific instance and I'll look into it? That's a one-off offer for this day only. Tomorrow, I'm going to run away again and hide behind the moderators.

  84. Montana - that's a good pic too, but the Causeway was the right choice. I like the mist coming up.

    Hi Eddie, you are constantly in my thoughts. Because every time I see an orange cone (which is daily - they're all over work) it reminds me of your avatar.

  85. nice from exiledlondoner, having just read an iddlebid thread for the first time:

    "If Lord Summerisle got himself banned on one of her threads, all I can say is that anyone else who posted there, and who failed to get banned, should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves....."

  86. note habib has just been smacked down by mr seaton on the birthday thread. you might want to get back there, pet...

  87. ah, no need, i see. great comeback

  88. Emily

    One point - my observation, one often leading to frustration.
    Certain posters ,with strong and often single agenda, ignore both text and context.

    Face to face contact/discussion doesn't allow for this. We can avoid or talk over 'pub bore' .

    There are also those who feeling that real life ignores or sidelines their views or needs use fora in search for justice or just to be heard. How do we respond/recognise truth or otherwise.

    Lots of stuff revolving around lack of any real knowledge of far away lives.
    Await your piece to see which aspects you want to highlight'explore.

  89. @Habibi - work of genius. That 'manservant' bit will really hit Seaton in the amour propre.

  90. rilliant Habib

    See Seaton has mentioned ropes - how long before someone arrives with lampost?

    Off to do some work.

  91. Habib

    Thanks for that. Especially liked the "laddie" thrown in at the end.

    Seaton has made himself look an imbecile all day, joining Georgina Henry who made a fool of herself the other day and JessicaReed who manages the same feat every day.

  92. Leni, oxalis is a sorrel, but the true shamrock (three leaves) is actually a clover (trifolium repens or dubium). The Irish for little clover is 'seamróg' and the four leaf version is an uncommon variant. St Patrick apparently used the three leaves to represent the Trinity and thus cleverly supplanted the existing pre-Christian Irish symbolism of the Druidical mystical number three. The fourth leaf is supposed to represent luck. As least that's what some old shanachie (seanchaidhe) in a pub told me over many pints og Guinness and small Bushmills.

    And here endeth the St Patrick Day's lesson :0)

  93. Atomboy

    Who actualy determines policy at Cif? The front of house people are making fools of themselves defending Cif but just how much wriggle room do they have?

  94. Leni - I can definitely relate to your first observation; seems to me that's a perennial frustration of online communication. I hadn't yet considered the aspect of lacking knowledge of 'far away lives' as you say - I think that's a really good way of putting it. It puts me in mind of the fact that ignorance has always existed, but that we probably *see* more of it with the advent of the internet - because relatively sheltered views, if I can put it that way, can now be broadcast everywhere throughout the very world from which those who hold them are sheltered. I'd say communication on the internet has the potential to bring together vastly different perspectives from people who, offline, might never cross paths. With interesting results!

    I should probably mention that there may not be any UT2 post from me for a couple of days yet, as I'm facing a bit of a deadline crunch right now - life of a student. But the wheels are turning and with any luck I'll have a piece discussing some of these ideas up soon!

  95. @Atomboy, @Leni

    It's impossible to know who's in charge. Jess says she's not in charge of moderation, Seaton doesn't seem to be (although since he thinks moderators are perfect beings, there wouldn't be much point anyway), and Georgina doesn't seem to know what's going on in any form at all.

    Perhaps the moderators are like the capricious gods on Olympus? "Like flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods; they kill us for their sport."

  96. Thanks Scherfig

    I grow several varities of oxalis.

    Symbolism is interesting particularly when used to supplant older ideas.

    Do you know which olde Christian chopped down the oak trees replacing them with firs. The fir tree being 'the tree of Christ' Supposedly happened somewhere in N Europe.

    Myth or fact?
    i'm a fairy/folk tale enthusiast. Interesting conections between dark conifer forests and threat & spiritual darkness.

    Many suicides here in forestry plantations - true also in Japan. One area in particular employees wandering support people to try to stop people hanging themselves. Trees and hanging/transformation?

  97. Hi everyone, missed u guys! New films; 'Planet Hulk' is a beast! Saw half at a pal's, brilliant! DVD is in the post, I'll let you know when it gets here. Have been absent/lurking as I'm gearing up for work, start Monday! I have been told not to post on Cif from work... Going ATL, head above the parapet, proud nail, etc.. :-(

    Will lurk tho... Philippa, Cordy, I wondered, when you got the blue C, did you kinda loose a bit of Cif interest? I kinda have..

    Aah, Guinness still 14 days of abstinence to go, prob another reason for my absence!

    BOSWELL. "Is not the Giant's-Causeway worth seeing?"
    JOHNSON. "Worth seeing, yes; but not worth going to see."
    Boswell: Life of Johnson

  98. Leni

    As far as moderation rules and policies go, it was supposed to be some kind of agreement between the BTLers and the Guardian staff in the form of Seaton and Henry last time it casme up in a big way.

    What actually happened was a long thread in which everyone said what was wrong and then the Guardian team told us what we would get, whether we liked it or not.

    In terms of the real decisions, obviously they come from whichever team at The Guardian isd allowed to make policy.

    However, for Seaton to pretend that he cannot get involved because the moderators inhabit a separate universe and are, in any case, perfect is a load of bollards.

    The main thing which has come out of this is the utter and complete contempt with which the BTLers are viewed and the obvious line of "Don't fucking question us, we do as we choose."

    So, as we have always known, it is their party and they make the rules. Anyone can choose not to attend, which is now my choice.

    To make my position clear to those whose opinions are worth anything (sorry kizbot, you are not in the team for this one) I posted today and yesterday purely because of the moderation debate and because Montana and Wybourne had done so. I think we all felt it was an opportunity not to be missed.

    Now, I no longer want to know.

    I have other things to occupy my time and am glad to be rid of the distraction, to be honest.

    I will occasionally view the rise of the idiot classes from the outside, no doubt, like watching a petri dish of agar get overrun by bacteria.

    Other than that, the internet is a big place and I will keep dropping in here.

  99. Interesting about the fir trees, leni. Christianity came much later to N Europe, some 500-600 years later in Scandinavia where fir trees were the norm rather than oaks. Worth checking out, though. Will report back.

  100. I hardly dare say it, but the interminable circular discussion of moderation on Cif is like arguing for three days about which brand of motor oil to buy without actually realising that the whole engine is already totally fucked.

  101. Fucking hell, work keeps getting in the way (oh, and Cheltenham:better day today, but my turf accountants are still marginally ahead) so I'm missing all of the action/'insurgency'.
    Nice to see Frank (Fisher)/Pikey, who I've not seen around for a while (though he popped up on Sunny Hundal's ego vehicle, LC fairly recently I'm sure).
    Steering clear of CiF for the foreseeable.

  102. "On the Malik front this is Monkeyfishs's doing, i'd never read Malik until his recommendation. Good work monkeyfish and any more book commendations would be welcome."

    the cyclical nature of insane enthusiasm

    Undoubtedly one of the best books I've ever read. It should be read by everybody..twice...and for eschatology, you can freely substitute just about any 'ism' that you can come up with.

  103. JessicaReed
    "I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, everyone."

    "OK. You look like Mr Bean in a wig."

    17 Mar 2010, 6:13

  104. Well, I don't think that birthday thread is going quite the way they'd envisioned it, is it?

    By the way: Welcome, Emily, and welcome back Eddie, Turminder, Frank, pen, and anyone else who wants a welcome back!

  105. scherfig

    Yes, although, to use your analogy, I think many of us have felt we have been coaxing an old jalopy along to which we have given a pet name and occasionally polished to a dull shine and sometimes wondered whether we would invest some money to make into a proper runner again.

    You form an attachment, even with the desperation when it lets you down and the engine splutters to a standstill, just as you are negotiating a tricky, busy junction.

    In the end, though, you just push the wreck into the depression leading to the deep ditch in the bit of land you have gradually used to just dump forgotten wreckage.

  106. Hi Eddy, good to see you here.

    I am leaving for a week or so very shortly so will miss out on the fall out of all the fun and games thats been going on, but will try and have a readup when i get back.

  107. Yeah, atomboy, I suppose it's a shame. For me, Cif was probably never much more than a borrowed car which I took for a bit of joyriding. I threw the keys away some time ago, and now I only ride the Untrusted bus :o)

  108. Sorry just saw your post, MF, i have put it on my Amazon "wish list" and will pick it up on payday.

  109. scherfig: spot on. The moderation is but a symptom of the cancerous disdain shown to the readers and BTL commenters.Put palpable bollocks by the evidently ignorant and/or ludicrously ill-informed and deliberately dodgy with the facts and evidence above the line, then cry blue murder when those below the line write better,more incisive,wittier and more engaging stuff.
    I think Montan ahad it nailed when she said something along the lines of what the Guardian can't stomach is accurate demolition of their scared Third Way cows and their preferred writers who really do turn out some unutterable guff, one-eyed,illiberal and plain wrong in factual terms on occasion after occasion. They like the wingnuts and the uber-Tories because they can readily dismiss 'em, but they can't bear being exposed as the phony,'playing' at being leftist,identity-fixated,chattering,privileged wankers so many of them are (one or two exceptions,maybe. Pikey used to get them going when he exposed just how opposed to freedom they are,MF got them for their plain bourgeois falsity and vacuous posturing 'concern'/solidarity shtick, LordS got them for their humourlessness,WML for their scientific illiteracy,and so on.En masse they close ranks and pretend that nothing's wrong as their cosy world-view is shown time and time again to be a self-serving load of shite.
    There's the odd good writer, but the preferred ones, the Andrew browns, the Bea campbells,etc are vanity-driven,thin-skinned egotists, encouraged by the bloody rag to pen drivel.
    So,yup,it's a bit more than moderation.

  110. scherfig

    Yes, I went from being proud owner to wanting to be a TWOCker and just smash it up a bit before torching it.

    If destruction was the name of the game, though, I think leaving it in the incompetent hands of Seaton will ensure its fate better than any intervention on my part.

  111. @MF - That's going on my wishlist too. I have his other one, 'Europe's Inner Demons', about the witch trials.

  112. A seemingly endless number of Bulgarian websites offer help in dispelling black magic spells that are thought to be the cause of unhappiness and illnesses. A brief investigation by Bulgaria-language daily Novinar showed that prices for these services ranged between 80 and 200 leva.

    The top-end of the service was provided by an unnamed clairvoyant in the Black Sea town of Varna. The sum, payable by bank transfer, would ensure than any black magic would be dispelled and rid the newspaper's journalist of any negative energy.

    The service would be provided over three evenings. Because of the distance between the offices of the newspaper in Sofia and Varna, a photo would have to be sent by email and the same medium would be used to lift the spell.
    This looks hopeful - shall I email seaton?

  113. Hi guys am still in premod (soooooo boring but means don't feel compelled to post)

    HeyHabib, thanks, you say such nice things : )

    Leni, folk tales etc, yeah I am the erlking haha why would I be bothered by trolls? Most never get it do they? Haha Having gone posty science some while back I've taken magic too and dreamland, all; that is and all that is not and the not ...

    but I am just jonathan. It's so funny.

    Emily, you would need a hotter flame to burn me : ).

    Have you done discourse / content analysis? Both theory and methodlogical? Try and develop a theory for coding the data, a theory that is properly grounded (not just in the 'grounded' theory sense?)

    So, for instance, reciprocity and social exchange provide coding categories, are internet norms same as f to f? Yeah?

    Love to all (especially Emily as she is new to me : ) )

  114. Glad to see people are not talking about me again... I was worried for a mo!

  115. Hellish day at work, still bloody logged in to watch things crashing. Of all Cif/UT days to not have time!

    Loads of good posts above - Alisdair, liked yours (to name one of the most recent only) - you've nailed it - or rather, added another nail to the coffin Montana built. ;-)

    I think what annoys us all the most is that it *was* a great site, and still is in many ways, but the things that are ruining it are a) getting worse, and b) ignored when we point them out.

    Suspect they're going for the HuffPo model, which is actually a horrendous site full of practically analphabet right-wing frothers BTL - and the so-called left-wingers aren't much better, tbh. If they take up the suggestion one or two have been making of having threaded comments, that'll be me out for sure. So take that, Guardian! Pow!

    (They'll be crying in their champers all night.)

    Right, going to grab a bite before wrestling with bloody shite software again - may or may not be back.

  116. Thank you Montana, and thank you pen - you are too kind! I'm very glad to have found you all.

    I study linguistics as well as social anthropology, and so have a (very) rudimentary knowledge of some aspects of discourse analysis. My approach to this project is very much an anthropological one, though, as opposed to what I would call one rooted in the social sciences. By this I mean that an approach based on data and coding seems to suggest a greater 'objectivity' than I would like to lay claim to! This is where participant observation comes into play, as I understand it. The aim is to enter into subjective social relationships with people, rather than to collect objective facts; whatever analysis of this material I give in the end, it's given with the caveat that it's more interpretive than authoritative, and only one of many possible interpretations at that.

    I hope I'm making sense - this is my first undergraduate fieldwork, so I'm still finding my legs somewhat! I will do my best to elaborate on all this in my post to UT2. Must dispense with certain essays before I can turn my thoughts to that, however, so to that end I must wish you all farewell for now! Thanks so much again for the warm welcome and look forward to speaking with you again soon.

  117. thank you for the ref. Philippa. I hope it is not, or not only, collegiate pietas that makes me say that I didn't think much of the article.

    1. AS would be the first to admit that he is an amateur philosopher (though he is obviously head and shoulders above the likes of me). He is a professional *economist*, hence "the task of the theory of justice, in this approach, is not that of speculating – and dreaming about – a perfectly just world, or even about perfectly just institutions, but using public scrutiny to arrive at agreed diagnoses of manifest injustices on the elimination of which a reasoned agreement could emerge." He is as sceptical of the socialist 'perfectly just world' as he is of the neo-liberal kind. And in any case that sentence seems a pretty slender peg on which to hang an article.

    2. 'one has to wonder whether the essential difficulty of concepts should really place them beyond the reach of inquiry.' Straw man. Sen wouldn't maintain that for a moment.

    3. 'Capability' is not one thing. Literacy (and education in general), long life-expectancy, access to contraception (for women), and political freedom of speech are all forms of 'capability', and it's obvious how heterogeneous those are.

    4a. 'our ability to perceive injustice along the emotional lines delineated by Sen has by and large long since dried up.' That's highly debatable; it just takes a little hard work and research. And Dammann's 'journalist's we' misleads him: '(why else do we keep our aid budgets so low?)' I don't. The government does.

    4b. That pejorative 'emotional' is misplaced. His writing is very sober. And should one not only be emotional, but ANGRY, at manifest injustices both individual and collective?

    These substantial points aside, I thought the article was very badly-written; and as for preferring Trinity, he let it be known that he took a 75% salary cut when he left Harvard to become Master!

  118. correction on 4b: for 'should' read 'shouldn't'

  119. Emily - may I gently suggest that you use a little less jargon when you put up your UT2 post? It's not that people won't understand it; but internet fora such as these are jargon-busting organisms and are generally intolerant of it.

    In my uni days, I found that the papers I wrote that were in the clearest language were the best received, for what that's worth. (Except for one or two profs who were up their own arses. In the case where you encounter those, you do your research in normal language and translate it into wankerese for their benefit.)

  120. Come on in SheepHerderr... bring your little whistle over...

  121. Jay / Peter J

    It's a really good read. I first read it when I was working in Munster. It was the only English language book I could find which had any mention of the Anabaptist revolt there. I'd heard of it before as it's featured in many political histories an an early example of communism, but I was intrigued by people's attitude to it. There was a mixture of shame and a perverse pride..mainly I think because all the participants were butchered or dispersed so none of the inhabitants were actually descendants of anyone involved.

    It gives of good overview of the whole incident but it's only one amongst many others. Seems periodic apocalyptic madness is a frequent human trait. I can clearly remember the shock other people expressed at the likes of Jonestown and Waco, but they were just part of a large and colourful mosaic of fuckin pure madness. People's ability to paint themselves into an ideological and spiritual corner and then abandon all rationality and sense in order to justify their position is quite staggering.

    All it takes is a sincere conviction that you're right and a small cabal of fellow believers...you maybe ought to suggest Matt Seaton gets himself a copy

  122. Am I allowed to play out here, please!?

  123. James, who you asking ??
    cool by me.

  124. hello james! nice stubbornness demonstrated over the last coupla days...

  125. Am I missing something. Our Gordy claims 12.5% rise overall (real terms) in 'defence' spending since Lab came into office.

    Is he actually saying that waging war - as opposed to army on whatever else they do basis - costs only 12.5% more ?

    If so measuring extra costs against increased profits etc through arms manufacturing , tax take etc the difference is minimal

    Financial costs then not much of a hindrance to the warmongers - these figures can't be right.

  126. and, yes, who the hell is nerfherder, or whatever?

    anyway. have wine and pringles. what will get me first, the E-numbers or the ABV? hmmmmmmm

  127. Leni - he's had to 'fess up to the rise not being yearly, as i understand. but yes, it seems to be that 'army costs' should be assumed to be regular, subject only to the RPI, regardless of whether or not we are actually fighting wars on two f-ing fronts from one accounting period to the next. he'd be morally out were he factually right, in my view - the fact that he's had to admit he fucked up the actual figures just adds to the chaos...

    zombie indeed.

    shed. now.

  128. Hi Emily,

    Thanks for locating yourself more finely, I'll try not to over whelm : )

    Anthropology includes cognitive anthro, academci disciplines are kinda arbitary.

    Data is just stuff theoretically defined yeah. It does not all have to be hard numbers, depends.

    I do all this barebrained and with little recourse to weeekipeeedia. But I know I'm weird (the wyrding way).

    It sounds neat what you are doing and it is reflexive practice isn't it. I am interacting with you yeah. I laugh to myself when `I type it, yes? But maybe I lie and am doing something naughty : )

    As I said check out the UT (this site) for the time I posted from 13/03. It is all premeditated (and more hahaha)

    So what will you pay for this Emily?????? It's cool, you can have it for nothing and I'll still err on the side of being too kind rather than not kind enough.

    Hi Kiz

  129. James - play away! Some of us are lightweights who go to bed early though ... ....

  130. @bitterweed. Thanks (I wasn't sure what the etiquette was)!!

    @Philippa. Erm, I'm guessing you mean that in a bad way.
    My apologies though, the whole thing has wound me up a wee bit!!

  131. @thaumaturge

    Cheers. I'm a lightweight too, but a time difference gives me the illusion of being less so.

  132. james - nah, meant in a very good way! while many are reduced to just saying "but this is bollocks!" very loudly, you've maintained a good level of pressure and detailed argument (and caught 'em out in a couple of fuck-ups, through sheer persistence). good job, I say.

  133. James - where are you based, then? Or is it a job-schedule issue?

    I knew Philippa meant it in a complimentary way!

  134. Philippa - thank you (without wanting to be too gushy, you're one of the posters there whose opinion I respect the most, so that actually means a lot).
    On the plus side, given that most of the others who fit into that category are here anyways, maybe it aint that bad afterall....

  135. James - Hi

    The etiquette here is pretty tight - i hope you know which fork to use for what. Apart from that just join in.

  136. thaumaturge - Sao Paulo.

    Which can be two, three or four hours behind GMT, depending on some stuff which I haven't quite figured out yet!!

  137. hey, handand! (hope you don't mind me being informal, and that)

    it has been a busy time over here, ain't it? we'll know we've really got there when Purnell's people start asking if they can post on UT2.

    ooh, I would like to see that fight...

  138. and bless, james, thank you.

  139. Leni - cheers.(but, what's a 'fork'!?)

  140. Hi Phillipa

    Handand is more than adequate. Having being on teh moderation once already I realised that I might be on thin ice over at CIF after LS's booting so a bolt hole is more than a good idea.

  141. Handandshrimp

    don't peep - just come in.

    Why hand and shrimp - often womdered.

  142. Welcome James.

    Here's a guy called Franco, playing a favourite of mine from 1979 Oh Miguel!.

    He was a true master of Congolese music, a fantastic entertainer, great songwriter, but in latter years turned into a collossal money grabbing shit who feted the corrupt elite who were destroying his own country's (then Zaire) economy.

    Shame. His music was awesome. It still shines.

    Yet another example that answers, for me the question "can we separate the artist's (im)morality from the legitimacy of their creative output"?

    It's very often "yes", imho.

  143. handand - i discovered 'this place', rather ironically, after being modded from an iddlebid thread last year. they reinstated me, presumably after checking my chromosomal load...

  144. GIYUS is back! aw, bless...

  145. Sao Paulo, James! Never realised that. Brings a different perspective - the difference between rich and poor there puts ours into, er, near-respectability.

    Nice to see HandandShrimp in these parts too...

  146. Bitterweed

    We have to seperate the morality from the artistic output , otherwise we would have to deprive ourselves of so much pleasure.

    Great art, music, literature stands apart - belong to us all once it is created.

    I suppose problems arise with the still living creatives - should we support them financially by buying their stuff if we think they are immoral (Not talking about sexual naughties)

  147. Welcome Handandshrimp and James -- fasce sua cama! (I think I spelled that right. I haven't had call to use it for a long time. It's all the Portuguese I know.)

    Been reading the Birthday thread between loads of laundry going in & out. Have found it really hard to keep to my "no more posting" vow. But there has been some really good work there!

  148. jaysus - jiasa is the new, ermmm - bitey? really, this is uber-archivist stuff

  149. Leni

    There is a book character called Foul Ole Ron who wanders the streets muttering "buggerit buggerit millennium falcon hand and shrimp". I felt it encapsulated my random squawks and incoherent railing at the world in general.

  150. BW, that link wanted me to sign into YouTube ... I ain't doing that!

  151. Thanks for all the welcomes folks - this place seems to be populated with people I mostly haven't annoyed (well apart from Peter but I think he liked it :) )

  152. H&S - brill! What book? It actually sounds vaguely familiar.

  153. James Dixon - are you 'jamescisv'? Welcome anyway.

    I think Leni meant fork literally, and was joking that you need the social nous of HMTQ herself to acquit yourself here without shame, in response your earlier question about 'etiquette'!

    Hello HandandShrimp!

  154. thaumaturge

    It is one of the Pratchett characters.

  155. Handand

    Of course - Discworld. It's been bugging me for ages.

    Can I call you Foul ol'Ron - Ron for short?

  156. Fuckinellwouldyalookatthetime

    Must be off know but will hopefully find time to look in tomorrow if the work fires of hell do not engulf me too much. Although I'm not too optimistic about that.

  157. just wanting to play, after mentioning Dworkin's 'DIY for the oppressed' on the toilet thread, amd now considering her follow-up, 'Feminist Hobby-Crafts'.

    so far, have only "knit your own dental dam"

  158. know = now

    Why does it only post first time when you don't want it to?

  159. Bitey has been Jiasa for a few weeks now, no less a creepy slimeball for the name change. Hi Hand&, and James, so why 'hand&shrimp' is it a Dali ref? And James, why the gas mask?

  160. Leni

    If it is easier by all means. I am Biggles on another board and everyone calls me Les - I think I'm getting the hang of multiple personalities.

  161. Thaumaturge - yeah, it's been a bit of a culture shock, that's for sure...

    Montana - thanks for the welcome.

    - make your bed? - prob best not to ask why that's the only Portuguese you know, right!? ;0)

  162. Ah,Foul ol' Ron. Yes, I gave up discworld after the first dozen or so..

  163. Philippa

    I saw Andrea Dworkin on TV once and I have to say she scared the Bejaysus out of me.

  164. you and me both, handand - but unlike some present-day radfems, it was good that she was around...

    giyus now posting as a mod. really, get over there before he's zapped back to his hollowed-out volcano.

  165. Sheepherder. Don't be shy..
    "You people pick a target and hound them to distraction, the poster gets banned"

    Show me a poster I ever "targetted" and "hounded.".

    As for bitch-fest about CiF. I'm sure they can cope. The bannings / lengthy premoddings were their answer to any of our given critiques of the shite they regularly - as part of their busines plan - posted, and still post ATL. There may well have been some great wit along the way, but I can assure you, the disgruntlement and laothing here was with their clearly unetchical abuse of journalistic standards. As I have said before, when their news and review sections contain quality, why do they insist on binning journalisitc standards on CiF? Rusbridger himself has said he is proud that GU has "200,000 members". Why is the business models so different ? I think that speaks for itslelf - Guardian media is losing money hand over fist, and they are shitting themselves - so just ban the awkward ones who make the brand harder to maintain. Which often means ban the interesting ones, or the ones who don't buy their tedious line in what are acceptable views with regard to race, identity, gender, or religion. Etc. They are often banned without a single curse word or epithet. They just attack the cretinous witterings of the ATL writers, and the mods who seem solely emplyed to protect their feelings.

    I'll let others speak for themselves. For the record, I once called Bitery a "fucking idiot" after he made some pretty vile comments about the hostesss' parenting skills, right here.

    I also called Bru a "drooling spaniel with BSE", and Hermione a "goalhanging cunt"

    For which I am not sorry, and said I was sorry respectively.

    I don't recall doing much else that was personal, unless it was about the fork-tounged staffers and their lobotomised little gimp-masked moderators. Who are clearly game for anything.

    If you want to carry this on, come on over. Your call.

    Menawhile, here's Motorhead, with the Ace of Spades.

  166. turminderxuss

    I like Prachett but I'm off to read Banks' Transition

  167. Lavartis - yup, I'm jamescisv, and thanks.

    (my fork question was supposed to be a humorous nod in the direction of my total lack of class or breeding - but I'm not so good at the humour either...)

    turminderxuss - Hi.

    Gas Mask? From my profile pic? That's my beard! (although it won't be there for much longer now....)

  168. Mr. Xuss
    You are unusually quiet - reticent almost.

    Hope all is well with you - are you suffering from incipient normality? I fear it might be overtaking me too.

  169. Ha ha, bitey's back on WDYWTTA with a vengeance! Some quality insults from the archives there. Although I do feel a bit ashamed at being so rude to such a nice, sweet guy. In my defence, I can only assume I was provoked, and it was quite a long time ago. Although I think jiasa is a bit miffed that we don't bother talking about him any more. Let's hope he doesn't start stalking BB again, he seems a bit put out that he's not getting any attention.

  170. Evening all

    Had a very nice - though booze-free due to driving - girly pizza night and caught up with some old friends, two of whom I haven't seen for about five years! Made me feel so bloody old. I have no idea where time goes. It seems like I sit down her on a Friday night, pour myself a beer and think "ah the weekend", then I blink and it's Monday... and then Friday...

    Hi to everyone new here.

    And Kiz, I meant what I said yesterday.

    Gonna catch up on a bit of CiF, see what's cooking.

  171. Is giyus the conspiracy nut? He is actually being quite funny tonight. They must have his medication pitched just about right (or his hat has been fine tuned).

  172. Leni
    Good answer, which I find hard to dispute. There are living examples of total shits who make music/movies/arts, but none of them making GREAT music/movies/art, so it makes it somewhat easier to not buya any...

    Here's that Franco link again (thauma). It really is glorious

  173. This comment has been removed by the author.

  174. What is going on with Jiasa over on CiF where have all those spiteful posts come from? They look like something from school yard bullying.


  175. scherfig
    I like jizza. He sticks to his guns.

  176. Hi guys

    But they are not untrue quotes are they? And there is some truth in the claims too?

    I lied when I said I would not return but not at other times.

    Do you know the scene in The Matrix where Neo is offered the pills? Well guys you've already swallowed me.

    Leni, get ready to go down the wormhole.

    As ever self select.

    You took a golden apple, so shiny, so golden duh.

    You do mob people you know, some of you, sometimes.

    Night night and sweet dreams to some, night terrors to others.

  177. Cordelia - Jiasa = Bitethehand, the chap, an avowed 'feminist' poster, who got banned after a lengthy spree of being, well, a male chauvinist pig towards many female posters, including most horribly, but not limited to, montana and beautifulburnout. his preferred debating tactic was to refer posters to a comment they had made on an entirely different topic back in 1987. hence the list up now.

    Yes, some nasty things were said about him here. they were nothing, trust me, to what he said on CIF. A feminist who sought every opportunity to be goodamn scary at working mothers? who bordered on stalking? I don't do nasty often - but he didn't get any more than he did first, if you see whart i mean...

  178. Yeah, he doesn't give up, BW, does he? The next phase will probably be Cif accusations of Montana's neglected 10 year old being an alcoholic, and BB's son running away from home. Although that would just get him banned again, so he might try something new. He really is a despicable human being.

  179. Jokes about medication? Do I find them funny. I was sectioned last year, psting was part of it. All your talk yeah guys.

    I had the CPN round last night having contacted the team. They got cross when I said I would not necessarily take the drugs and then they walked out with the sleeping tablets I had been prescribed despite me indicating that getting to sleep was sometimes a problem.

    You lot (someone but I cannot be bothered to be an archivist) made a joke about me and meds some moths back,

    I do not care, but others might.

    We should all use/choose our words and our thought more carefully than many do.

    But hey I am nice, I play tit for tat, mostly.

  180. pen - if someone calls someone X, and they respond Y, then just to cite Y is not, to my mind, adequate.

  181. pen, can't argue with the archive, terribly repentant and all that, very bad form, but I would say that he richly deserved it. Plus, those comments were not posted on a national public blog like Cif, but were private reactions here to the malicious lies he told on Cif about posters who were well-known and respected on Cif.

  182. my fork question was supposed to be a humorous nod in the direction of my total lack of class or breeding - but I'm not so good at the humour either...

    Well, I got it. As for fasce sua cama -- years ago my uncle adopted two boys from Brazil. At the time, I had a friend from Brazil (it was when I was at uni). I had my friend teach me that as a joke.

    I've just been reading Waddaya and kind of wish I hadn't. Blood boiling for multiple reasons. Am I the only one who finds it just a bit too precious that Kiz, jiasa & Bru think that it's okay for them to bitch about the UT on there but that we're somehow out of line in talking about them here?

  183. Just as an idle observation and prediction, all the fun and games of the last couple of days will, of course, only serve to reinforce and entrench the line adopted by Seaton, once everything settles down and pans out.

    There will be a bit of back and forth email banter between Summerisle and CiF Towers and in the end, it will all end amicably with a "Perhaps we might have been a little hasty" and an "Oh, not to worry. No harm done!" and then there will be a bit of back-slapping and guffawing and finally a "You must come round for a meal one evening" and a "Yes, I'll give you a buzz. Look forward to it. Cheerio for now!" and everyone will be playing happy families before you know it.

    After a couple of days of modest and tolerant moderation, things will settle back into the old routines and everyone will return to their former roles and positions and it will be as if nothing had happened.

    Seaton will have seen that you really can abuse people with impunity, even when they are effectively funding you and will know just how to handle things the next time the groundlings dare to get on their hind legs.

    As rednorth said, you learn to love Big Brother in the end.

    We, too, will go back to how we were and it will be as if we stirred for a moment in our slumbers, wheezed and snorted and changed position and then settled back to blank oblivion.

  184. scherfig
    Indeed. Right. I'm out.

  185. Pen

    Hey! I mentioned his hat too :(

  186. "Am I the only one who finds it just a bit too precious that Kiz, jiasa & Bru think that it's okay for them to bitch about the UT on there but that we're somehow out of line in talking about them here?"

    No, but don't worry about it. I mean. It just seems to be CiF's marketing strategy to defame the "competition" on their big day. As if. Heh.


  187. Atomboy
    Probably. The gang of ballbags.

  188. Montana

    The refs to UT are rather odd actually - seem to suggest it matters to them in some way. I.m trying to work it out.
    If they have gripes with individual posters then fair enough fight it out if that is their choice.

    It is the targetting of the sight that is odd.

  189. James

    I got the fork thing too.

    You will forever remain a wild bearded chap , tearing his food with his bare hands - probably in front of a cave - in my imagination.

    Sort of Simeon Stylites without the pillar.

  190. Off to read.

    One thing I learned from Cif - and here - is a whole clutch of new insults. Some of them very good but not necessarily of much use in the real world.

    Where's Deano tonight - hope he hasn't fallen in his foundations.

  191. Christina

    To use the word "cyberstalker" when it comes to the way Bitey behaves towards me is not much of an exaggeration.

    In his current incarnation I openly challenged him a few weeks ago to just give it up or he would end up being banned again, and he appeared to have seen the light and stopped doing it. It really doesn't take the mods long to recognise someone who posts prolifically in the same style hounding the same person. He believes I get him banned each time, which I don't, although I will admit that the time he accused me of being a drunk and after snooping on here traduced something I had said into my son running away from home and smeared it all over CiF, I did report him. That didn't get him banned though, I don't believe, because he was posting for weeks afterwards.

    He did the same to Montana - always done is a snidey, sideways passive agressive way "I'm sure your son, with his problems, must be proud of all the time his mother spends on the internet" type thing.


  192. You know guys Idon't carein some ways what you do do I? But I also feel that you are not consistant with your own expressed statements. Jeeze guys I am a psych,

    When ahve I ever called for anyone to be banned?

    Let a thousand flowers bloom and then cull kindly, you do yourselves no good whn you just indulge in hate speech. Words and thoughts matter. Don't you get it?

    I know I am only one person and that if you (n = 6billion +) carry on as you do we are all fucked. I'm easy with that guys but would prefer that we ( people/life/consciousness) live forever.

    I'm playing for the highest of stakes and most of you express what is often nothing more than a superficial seriousness. You (self select) but Hank, MF, MW, pursue vendettas against Bru.

    If you are a kid say she started it.

    When you argue with an idiot the best thing you can say is that you won an argument with an idiot.

    Grow up, not for me but for yourselves.

    Is that clear enough?

    Should I use JARGON (ie words you do not know the meaning of)

    Night night

  193. atomboy, I was going to post something almost identical to that a while back but couldn't be bothered. kiz lost her righteous indignation within hours, and is now frantically and unapologetically trying to bail out the sinking ship. Unexceptional announced his retirement from Cif with an air of disgust and angry disappointment, and was posting again before most people had even read his suicide note. Many others have done the same, but they'll be posting tomorrow on the hot buttered toast thread or shooting the breeze about Lady Gaga with all the other principled activists. Big win for Cif again (until the next time). plus ça change, and all that, doncha know.

  194. I remember him stalking you Beautiful Burnout, unfortunately I did not recognise his style so did not know the relevance of those posts.