14 March 2010

14/03/10

Happy Mothers' Day!*

So many cutesy, sappy, flowery images for the day.  I think this, from The Onion, has more of an Untrusted vibe:


*or, Mothering Sunday, if you prefer.

86 comments:

  1. Happy mother's day. I'm counting this as a present to my mum. (Don't be daft - I wouldn't dare.)

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  2. Thanks, habib - I'm counting your post as a present to those of the UT who are mothers (no offence to UT dads, you get your own day later in the year).

    I have 2 cards and don't expect anything more since I don't make a big thing out of Mother's Day. But I still have some of the cards & gifts my kids made when they were little & wouldn't part with them for the world.

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  3. Happy mother's day to all who are mothers. As a godmother of many and the coolest Auntie in the world I am basking in defacto lurve.

    Ms Chin. I love the 'art' kids make. I have boxes of it.

    Happy day Habib,nice to see you again.

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  4. Re yesterday's comments about Ariane: I don't rate her as funny nor insightful but do understand male hormones. Plus she can get more I's in a sentence than anyone. She plays to the male gallery as "I'm stuck in this situ..no-one will help me."

    Still if you boys aspire to do her,that's a fine and different thing.But don't tell me it's because you think she's clever.

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  5. "Calling Mom when we know she's at church"
    heh heh. guilty...

    anyway - congrats to all parents celebrating / anticipating academia-related offspring developments. And to princess for getting through the tube / camera thing.

    somebody yesterday mentioned the lack of eye-candy for female posters - at least thierry schaffhauser gets ATL.

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  6. MsR - the suggestion on the Bid thread that a SATC/cocktail evening should be organised so iddlebid can have some fun was simply glorious...

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  7. David Mitchell's Venables / dangerous dogs piece has bright red tag with "All messages will be held for moderation" above the comment box. I'm pretty sure I'm not in pre-mod, so can only conclude that at least CiF is being honest about it.

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  8. MsChin - I can see that too...

    will now read the article and see if i can think of anything moderatable to say...

    because i don't think it would be a good idea to comment on the iddlebid thread. for my karma, you understand. idiot woman.

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  9. So it's not just me then, Philippa :)

    Aside from MsRs suggestion, the Bidisha thread is best avoided, imho.

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  10. Morning all,

    Kevin McKenna's piece on CiF. It's football you dickhead, you're supposed to hate your nearest rival, be it club or country.

    I don't have an anti-English bone in my body, my wife is English etc, etc and the anti-English stuff that you occasionally hear makes me cringe, I even like to see the England cricket team do well.................but...................................................................................but...................................

    I would eat my own fucking spleen or even recommend a MoveanyMountain post if it guaranteed that the England don't win the world cup.

    Why? Football's my game, Scotland and England have the oldest international rivalry in the world, the Scottish media are only eclipsed by the English media for hubris and arrogance and they have scrotums in the squad such as Terry and Cole.

    I hate the way not supporting the England football team is supposed to represent anti-English small mindedness or racism.

    This rant was brought to you by the Duke's second farewell night on the pop

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  11. Happy day to all mums - what I wouldn't give to see mine again, it's now 25 years since she died. She was a delight even though she could never remember my name

    I add my welcome to Montana's to Lavartis who dropped by last night.

    For the avoidance of any doubt arising from yesterday's thread I should add that I do not have an obsession for Ariane's or about small tits under tropical skies at Scarborough. I'm non discriminatory..............I adore any sized or shaped tits under any sky especially here at
    Finest Resort in Yorkshire.

    My idea of heaven - rolling around the Bay playing with tits between pints .....bliss pure bliss.

    (Widdicombe and all other tory bitches excluded of course. I have never knowingly shagged a tory and have no desire to start now)

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  12. Of course I'm not fussy about nationality or colour..............Scots tits, Welsh tits,Irish tits, American (North and South,)African, Arabian, far Eastern, Pacific, Eskimo, Black, tan, sun kissed or simple white.

    Tits are very fine things and are much admired in my book I never visit a supermarket without wishing to sample them.....I adore them all.

    Time to walk the dogs and get to work on the site

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  13. Re yesterday's thread!

    Shef are they on toast or on chest?;)(the poached eggs)

    In the interests clarity you understand!

    Welcome to Paul.

    You can't say we don't have eclectic tastes here! From Adam Smith and Chernoble to tits (!) with Lady Gaga on the way. The things you get up to when I am busy.

    Happy mothering Sunday! Its not just pedantry this its because when my brother lived in the states my mum got two celebrations! So mother's day means the American one to me. (OK its pedantry really)

    Jay, were you bottle fed? In fact were all you guys bottle fed? Just asking ;)

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  14. your grace - MAM is actually being rather funny and frisky* on the Anna Span thread, so if you need to recommend one of his posts for karmic purposes, head over there...


    *presume they've got the workie programming him as it's a Sunday

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  15. .........and tits are not only like beer (non bad as such) ......they are also like fine wine............some of them improve tremendously with age.............a fully matured tit is a delight beyond compare

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  16. Thank you very much for your words of welcome, deano30 and Montana! I might have commented earlier yeaterday, but I spent all day in France and Belgium stocking up on cheap 'baccy, food and wine... a great day apart from the *appalling* meal at a brasserie (I will spare you the detailed rant). It was also rather odd walking into an academic-stylee 'librairie' and hearing as the muzak Lily Allen's 'F*** You'!

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  17. Quite bloody right,Duke. The man doesn't get football, does he (or sporting rivalry at all)?Does he think Sunderland fans wanted Newcastle to win,when they got to the FA cup final twice in succession (answer-no, and we laughed heartily each time, just as the magpies laughed at us back in '92).
    If India get to the cricket world cup final, do Pakistani fans cheer them on?Were Wales fans cheering on England in the last rugby world cup final? Not many.
    Oh, and Rooney the greatest player. Aye the lad is good,very good, but he's no Messi, let alone Zidane, and Rooney has to go a very fucking long way before he can be mentioned alongside Cruyff,Platini,Best,Maradona,Pele etc.

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  18. Blimey, a friend of mine has just put up the best/worst Mother's day message:
    Happy mother's day to all the mams of the world. cheers for popping us all out of your fannies and that.

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  19. Alisdair,

    McKenna's a died in the wool Unionist and hates it when Scots refuse to be good little North Britons and support the dominant national side on these Isles.

    In International footballing terms, England is a foreign country and as we have the oldest International rivalry in the world, why in God's name should Scots support England? Do you think Czechs are over the moon that Slovakia qualified whilst they didn't?

    It's a bogus argument based on a political agenda.

    As for the more pressing matter of Ariane Sherine and her assets. I just googled her and one of the photos that comes up is her in the atheist bus T-shirt. All I can say is that rather than having the legend

    "There's probably no God, so stop worrying''

    being emblazoned across her tight T shirt. It should actually have said

    ¨There´s probably no God, but by God these are real¨

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  20. @Alisdair and Duke

    Damn right. It's like my dad (a rugby league man) telling me that I should support Man U in the European Cup because I'm English and they're an English team. Fuck *that* shit, as XKCD reminds us.

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  21. Re: Mothering Sunday vs. Mothers' Day. If my formerly Episcopalian/Anglican self recalls correctly, Mothering Sunday wasn't originally anything to do with the women who gave birth to us. It was a day for people to return to their "mother" church -- the one they grew up going to. In many Episcopal Churches, all women, whether they've had children or not, are honoured on Mothering Sunday.

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  22. @Montana

    Back to the church I grew up going to? Bloody hell, I'm not going anywhere near the Christadelphians again, after managing to escape when I was eight.

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  23. Morning everyone

    Happy Mothers Day to any UT mums.

    Alisdair i don,t think your mate
    is poet laureate material but you
    never know.If Tracey Emin can knock
    'em dead in the art world with her
    unmade bed then maybe your
    mate could have the same effect
    with his 'touching'poem.Mind you
    with my own catholic mum i may have
    had to explain what a fanny was.
    Bless her!

    With regard to England v Scotland
    i think Alex Salmond will declare
    the day England are knocked out
    of the World Cup as a day of
    national celebration north of the
    border.And sadly it will be when
    as opposed to if England are
    knocked out!

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  24. Well that was a great walk - a week, or so, of sunshine and good drying winds means the land is drying out well and it's good underfoot.

    Hope the mud is starting to dry out on the plains Montana

    The walk was initially dogged by the idea that one day I might cop for Alzheimers and forget all the wonderful tits I have been privileged to encounter. So in their honour I made it a walk down memory lane, recalling them all singularly and then again in pairs, I just wish it could have been a longer walk......still I was grateful it lasted as long as it did.

    I don't want anybody to get the idea that I'm a perv - I like the other ladies bits just as much....

    By the way anybody who likes classical fiddle music would be advised to tune into the "listen again facility" on Classic FM internet radio and listen to this mornings:

    The A-Z of Classic FM Music with Alex James
    11:00 - 13:00 - Classic FM's definitive guide to classical music.


    This morning it was V for the violin. Most of the 20thCent's greatest fiddle players playing the world's best violin pieces (often on Stradivarius instruments) I'm no buff but I enjoyed it lots.

    PCC - you enquired about Mungo and the Nelson walking out jacket. ....well the news is mixed. He's accepted that a Saville Row solution is out of the question but he ain't given up on the idea.

    He's got me to bookmark ebay to check for secondhand possibilities and he's having me list Theatrical Costumers and auction sites so that when we are out and about later in the year...

    If I show signs of not taking the matter seriously he wakes me up in the night by humming this:

    Mungo's Tune

    He really is an uncivilised bastard, he engaged in a premeditated ambush of me last week. An incident that cost me half a beard and nearly resulted in a "Free to good Home" advert................which reminds me I really must get the Mungo yarns sorted out before I forget.

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  25. 'fanny' in france is a brand of groceries. french friends don't understand why we find lemons so funny...

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  26. "Women of the New Wave" on Radio4 now shaping up to be very interesting. Siouxsie Sioux could tell iddlebid a few things...

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  27. Peter

    It's like my dad (a rugby league man) telling me that I should support Man U in the European Cup because I'm English and they're an English team

    I would have been excused that by my dad cos English or not them bastard Mancs are Lancastrian...

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  28. Hello All
    I/m allowed in again - I think.

    happy Mothering Day to all- including the guys.

    Deano

    Tits and walking out jackets !

    Dogge is of the opinion that you are projecting your own desires (for the coat) onto Mungo and that the tits things could be solved by nestling into a soft squashy cushion - it works for him.

    As to supporting national teams - I have a tendency to support the one I feel sorriest for. In football this is usually Wales.

    The new lambs are dancing in the sunshine on the hill.

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  29. Just been on the editorial thread on assylum seekers!

    Had to come away! The utter hatefulness of the cr@p some people believe (they are all liers they get generous furniture grants etc etc) just makes me despair

    and as for the f*ckers who say 'they aren't our problem - words fail me!

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  30. afancdogge

    Historians will. I hope, note the damage to an as yet unknown number of deformed and crippled babies born in several Iraqi cities and surrounding areas. The people of Fallujah will remember the generation of women advised to have no more children to prevent any more babies being born with birth defects.

    MaM
    Indeed. And shake their heads over the gullibility and/or insane hatred of the West among so many on the Left.

    Don't worry folks MaM - or a Mam avatar - remains his normal loveable, cuddly self on the Porter thread.

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  31. Anne

    i am avoiding the asylum threads - cowardly I know but I can take only so much hate in any one day.

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  32. What crazed syntax..

    I like the other ladies bits just as much....

    plainly, "I like ladies other bits just as much"..the very thought of which causes my eye to loose focus....

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  33. anne & leni

    I'm avoiding any asylum threads too, and Bidisha and well, most of CiF really.

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  34. Yes, annetan42, there are some callous comments on that thread, but it's good to see you and BB fighting the good fight for humanity and decency.

    I came across a very trenchant quotation from Keynes the other day: 'Migration is the oldest action against poverty. It selects those who most want help. It is good for the country to which they go; it helps break the equilibrium of poverty in the country from which they come. What is the perversity in the human soul that causes people to resist so obvious a good?'

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  35. Not guilty leni.

    It is the case that I personally would very much like a vice admiral's dress jacket in the Nelson style, but the fact is that Mungo is too opinionated to have other's desires loaded on him.

    (For my part I have heard it said that you can cross the Styx without paying the boatman in such a jacket)

    In any event Mungo's passion precedes mine. His started with the death of Michael Jackson (a guy I always thought a tosser) and all the tv coverage of him prancing around in gold braided uniforms. As soon as he saw them I caught his eye and I knew that he wanted something similar if not better.

    As for the cushion substitute for a fine breast I think not. I only drink real ale and since Yorkshire is teeming with wonderful tits I couldn't contemplate any but the real thing.

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  36. Had to comment on asylum thread in the end.

    what a sickening display of inhumanity

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  37. Just to put things in perspective, ladies, consider this comment on Barbara Ellen's thread:

    Mother's day : a needless occasion for men to show their hostility toward women.

    PS. Don't tell my mum I posted this.
    PPS. Ariane Sherine is totally unfunny, and her twitter thing on the Guardian is embarassingly bad.
    PPPS. Don't tell Jay I posted that.

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  38. Lavartis

    My own thoughts on asylum seekers and refugees who risk all to survive and build a better life.

    they are driven by a strong spirit if determination and hope, they are far from the weakest in their societies. They have much to offer in terms of their human contribution.

    sad that so many have all this beaten out of them by the system, by rejection and dehumanisation. A torturer could do no better.

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  41. medve

    Tried but failed to c & p your post.
    nothing wrong with it as it is .
    After first sentence perhaps add 'Many have perhaps forgotten your own history'

    Possible final para?

    Europe throughtout its history has benefitted from the movement of people. Some cames fleeing religious persecution others for poltical and economic reasons. The movement is now as much towards Europe as within it for the same reasons.

    There are currently one million Brits living in Spain, many working. The retired are rightly receiving their British pensions, as are those who retire to Australia or elsewhere. Anybody want to complain that they are taking money out of the British economy?

    Or words to that effect. It is important to keep saying this is a 2 way process.

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  42. ..."He managed to make it to the Netherlands and has been a valuable and productive citizen ever since."

    I am sure that that is true. I can say the same about a family member who came to the UK at the end of the war as a refugee from Lithuania.

    But what I also have to acknowledge is that when I carefully investigated the family history I had to conclude that many of the Lithuanians in Germany at the end of the war (which is where his father came from as a refugee) were Nazi collaborators who had done some pretty dreadful things to the Lithuanian Jews.

    Not all refugees flee poverty or violence some flee Justice. My dear family member is of course not in way tainted since he was but a child at the time.

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  43. Deano

    What you say is true of course. These are not the majority.

    Post wwii saw many fleeing justice - many came out through Switzerland - joined the Rudolph Steiner movement and then came here. Another story altogether !

    I knew one - he still had his shin length leather coat and strutted about expecting obeisance from everybody else. A sick soul or downright bad ?

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  44. Leni thanks, i'll have a go.

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  46. "...The retired are rightly receiving their British pensions, as are those who retire to Australia or elsewhere."

    But they are not all treated equally since inflation indexing is not applied all UK pensions paid overseas....There is some unjustifiable discrimination in this area.

    More generally there are a lot of free market ideas masquerading in some observations about the legitimacy of the free flow of funds etc abroad....

    There are equally a lot of potentially detrimental free market ideas swilling around in the free flow of labour/immigration issues.

    Funny the number of folk who think it's fair that the UK taxpayers foot a substantial part of the education cost of UK medics and then say they should be free to fuck off to the USA etc without a second thought of repayment. Yes of course we benefit from African/Indian medics but the African/Indian locals may take the view that they loose...

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  47. Medve

    Sounds good. Some friends of mine just returned from Bulgaria - felt driven out. House constantly attacked, car vandalised. Haven't yet sold their house so came back with nothing.

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  48. Montana re mothering sunday - Yes thats true but it was also, in the middle ages the day when servants went home to their mothers and picked spring flowers for them on the way.

    It was also 'refreshment Sunday' - half way through Lent when a cake or pudding was made. Oftem young servants would take a cake home to their mothers on this day.

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  49. Afternoon Untrusted Ones

    Phew! Made it. Bit of an epic journey though - two buses, 2 cars and three planes but got here in the end and there's lovely late afternoon sun and lots of friendly people.

    Was met at airport by charming bloke called Edin who told me he was shot three times during the war and is a walking miracle of survival.

    Have put pic up on the photo page of the view from my window - looking over the famous bridge. The archduke met his nemesis on the far side.

    City still looks battered but quite a bit of new building. Must go and find some booze and then collapse. Exploring tomorrow.

    PS: You can smoke inside! Bliss!

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  50. True enough Deano. As I understand it pensioners on disability have to return home every 6 months or so to retain benefit.

    The reciprical agreement for pensions is not working.

    Big scandal in bulgaria - re homes sold th foreigners. A glitch in the system allowed power of attorney to locals on behalf of incomers meant they could sell foreign owned homes without permission. A non Bulgarian can only own a home there through a company. The rules are inconsistent.

    The only way forward is to press for rules which recognise our humaness rather than our origins.

    Many do not like free movement. Ethnic nationalism is on the rise again.

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  51. All immigration policies are geared towards advantage to the host country. This deprives poorer countries of their professionals and is creating an ever larger pool of people who are unwanted - anywhere.

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  52. Leni - the rise of nationalism all over is worrying and for one like myself, who sees his natural disposition as Internationalist, it's also fraught with confusing language. One can easily sound pro BNP when talking about the problems associated with the free movement of people and money.

    The reality for many working class people (all over the place) is that there is nothing of advantage for them in freedom of movement. They seem to be the ones who experience the downside.

    Simply leaving the BNP to benefit from the inconvenient reality seems folly to me. We need to find ways to talk about some "problems" in the area without being afraid of being labelled Fash

    I have heard that some Brits have had similar experiences, to your friend, with property ownership in places like Thailand. I gather that some half baked Brits have had a lesson in economics about the true cost of some young Thai brides........BB may know something about this, or may at least wish to check it out..

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  53. We might start with the observation that if Blair and the rest of the NuLabour shits think globalisation is a good thing we can be pretty sure that it ain't in the interests of the working class......

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  54. Todays Sunday Times reports that many of the new Labour candidates in safe seats are on the Left of
    the party.And whilst it,s early days and may prove
    to be a false dawn it would be nice to think the
    tide may at long last be turning.It will be a long
    hard slog though!

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  55. Leni et al:

    On a number of ocassions i have pointed out that Pa Milliband entered the UK as a refugee with a false passport. These days that would probably mean Yarl's Wood and undergoing a hernia operation while shackled.

    It is very short-sighted to be so anal-retentively against the refugees. England, the Dutch Republic, Prussia, and the North American French Colonies benefited greatly from the influx of Huguenots fleeing France in terror after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1682 to the detriment of France. They were a skilled and industrious bunch. Similarly the influx of Ugandan Asians in 1972 benefited the UK to the detriment of Uganda. Anyone with the where-with-all to manage to get out of great deep shit at home and actually manage to make it to Limy must at least have the quality greatly admired by Napoleon in his generals, luck, probably coupled with a fair bit of gumption. A friend of mine started his refugee life as a child aged seven when they raped and murdered his mother. He fled with father and sister, who sadly also got murdered en route. He managed to make it to the Netherlands and has been a valuable and productive citizen ever since.

    Europe throughtout its history has benefitted from the movement of people. Some came fleeing religious persecution others for poltical and economic reasons. The movement is now as much towards Europe as within it for the same reasons.

    There are currently one million Brits living in Spain, many working. The retired are rightly receiving their British pensions, as are those who retire to Australia or elsewhere. Anybody want to complain that they are taking money out of the British economy?

    Or perhaps a similar anti-Brit hatred should be stoked up in Spain and elsewhere, leading to the "expats" having to flee and becoming penniless "repats", just like the unfortunates who have recently had to return from Bulgaria -- felt driven out. Houses constantly attacked, cars vandalised. Came back with nothing.

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  56. Hallo all, sounds like I've missed some, er, interesting posts yesterday! Have had a couple of my favourite relatives visiting - brilliant weekend although I am disappointed in Italy's performance today.

    Have booked tomorrow off work - bliss!

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  57. I always liked Greatgrandad's posts on CiF - his very simple thesis amounted to something like:

    ....It ain't a question of how many folk we can accommodate in these Isles - more a question of how many we can feed............when the North Sea oil has all gone.............and we have to recognise the unintended wisdom of Kinnock ("we can't earn our living by taking in each others washing" etc)............Difficult to exchange the output of hairdressers and other service workers for banana's


    I have a lot of time for those who recognise that our economy is post Thatcher/Blair seriously structurally unbalanced and there are potentially big problems around the corner.

    Time for the dogs evening walk

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  58. Deano

    Perhaps we could formulate some none BNP type language here?

    The poor - everywhere - are the losers. I too am internationalist in leaning but realised long age that practical internationalism - free movement - advantaged the prof. qualified. It also reduces the drive for tertiary education in developing nations - many young people going abroad as teachers etc. as volunteers paid at local rates etc.

    It is a very difficult one. I always argue in favour, quite simply, for equal treatment for every one within any national borders - and acknowlege long history of immigration.

    Nice one Medve

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  59. http://sofiaecho.com/2010/03/01/866503_britons-to-march-on-bansko-against-alleged-property-theft/bulletin

    Read third post down for sad story of naivety and exploitation of a 'free mover'

    Many of course went into Bulgaria to rip of the property market.

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  60. Thanks Leni et al who have helped and encouraged me to cobble this together.

    Back to work, see you laters ..

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  61. annetan42

    That makes sense - Mothering Sunday, the fourth Sunday in Lent, is also known as 'Laetare' Sunday, from the introit for today's Mass, 'Laetare Jerusalem'; today's Gradual is also quite positive, Psalm 121 (in the Vulgate numbering), 'Laetatus sum in his quae dicta sunt mihi.' A half-time break, as it were!

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  62. Deano - there is a very strange costumiers and fancy dress agents in Sheffield called molly Limpets. I never dared enter because of the fear I would end up like Mr. Benn and go through a door into another world. I think you may find a suitable jacket there!

    You said: 'One can easily sound pro BNP when talking about the problems associated with the free movement of people and money.' I agree. And I think that there is a big difference between being an internationalist and in support of neoliberal globalisation.

    The thing is a lot of the right are actually in favour of economic immigration as it drives wages down very nicely for them but they have no time for assylum seekers. I would say my position is the opposite. New Labour are the absolute pinnacle of this - they have treated assylum seekers terribly and routinely send people back to horrific situations and possible torture or death. Yet when Poland entered the EU Blair pushed for allowing lots of economic immigrants to come to the UK and work. Germany and France opposed this for their countries.

    It is something that the left need to be able to talk about and especially when it comes to the myths about assylum seekers and 'them turning up here and getting everything on a plate' which is the biggest pile of steaming crap I have ever heard.

    On a lighter note I got a mothers day card today from my dogs! It is hilarious.

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  63. Sheff
    I loved Mr. Benn- wonderful to change your clothes and just be somewhere else - with a guaranteed safe return.

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  64. Leni,

    Ah I loved Mr. Benn too and the Flumps. I had a video of the flumps a few years ago - still great to watch.

    Deano - here is a link to Molly Limpets - you will see some fine jackets there, just dont let Mungo see it!

    http://www.mollylimpets.com/FancyDressCostumesInSheffieldandChesterfield.html

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  65. As ever, some good points PCC and Leni and I'll try and pick up on them when I've cooked me dinner.

    The evening walk, though still a delight, was not as much joy as the morning one. The morning one was taken with the delights of all the tits I have known, the evening one with regret for all the tits I wished I'd known.

    A life spent in regret is a sorry thing so get thee behind me wishful thinking......

    If I get a dads day card from Mungo I'll be checking me life insurance, he's a determined bastard so a trip to Ma Limpets could be my salvation...

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  66. Evening all, and happy Mothering Sunday to all the Mummies.

    Had a nice day, nice lunch, too much vino and now a tad squiffy. Just wanted to send everyone my hugs before I doze off on the sofa

    Kisses xx

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  67. The reality for many working class people (all over the place) is that there is nothing of advantage for them in freedom of movement. They seem to be the ones who experience the downside.

    Simply leaving the BNP to benefit from the inconvenient reality seems folly to me. We need to find ways to talk about some "problems" in the area without being afraid of being labelled Fash


    Interesting point, deano, and I agree that we need to talk about these things in a radically different way. When all the rhetoric about immigrants and asylum seekers is done, we are left with concrete questions such as why eg. Montana who, as a US citizen with an education and a desire to move to the UK and the skills to contribute to society, has no chance at all. As an 'economic immigrant', from outside the EU, she seems to have less chance of living in the UK than someone from Somalia. Where should the balance be between accepting people in need (refugees) and people who wish to move for purely personal/economic reasons? And the balance between EU and non-EU citizens? And the balance within the EU? And the balance between 'altrusim' and economic self-interest? And by economic self-interest I mean a healthy society where there are sufficient reasonably well-paid jobs for working class people who are currently unemployed, rather than higher profits for big companies who employ cheap labour from Poland or the Czech Republic (or black labour from illegals), or the middle class professionals who have a cheap nanny and a cleaner.

    Incidentally, I don't think that reference to Hugenots in the 18th century or Milliband's grandfather has any relevance at all to the current 'immigration' debate of 2010, where globalisation, neo-liberalism and rampant capitalism make the situation rather different from even 50 years ago. Given the state of the world, and the many conflicts that people are attempting to flee from, a purely emotional response to these issues, although understandable, is not particularly productive. This might be one of those rare occasions where one can't learn much from history, because that history doesn't actually exist.

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  69. Time for a song - inspired by one of Habib's posts on yesterday's thread.

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  70. scherfig:

    Incidentally, I don't think that reference to Hugenots in the 18th century or Milliband's grandfather has any relevance at all to the current 'immigration' debate of 2010, where globalisation, neo-liberalism and rampant capitalism make the situation rather different from even 50 years ago. Given the state of the world, and the many conflicts that people are attempting to flee from, a purely emotional response to these issues, although understandable, is not particularly productive. This might be one of those rare occasions where one can't learn much from history, because that history doesn't actually exist.

    These references were made in a debate about refugees. I would have wished to show that refugees who have been welcomed are very likely to integrate well, and in the case of Pa Milliband (father) who arrived together with grandfather, both with false papers, leading to offspring of cabinet rank ironically.

    ...

    i could go on if you would like to debate.

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  71. Song for the blokes pining after Ariane Sherine.

    Me, I quite like her pieces when I'm after something a bit fluffy and inconsequential.

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  72. Sorry, medve, I'd like to debate this but I don't have the time now. My key point was simply that the world/Europe was radically different even 60-70 years ago than it is now (politically and demographically). Refugees/immigrants were nearly 100% intra-European until the 1950's.

    FYI The population of Europe in 1900 was 408m, in 2010 730m. Africa 1900 133m, 2010 980m. Asia 1900 950m, 2010 4100m.

    The sheer scale of population growth requires a practical approach to immigration that is not based on an emotional notion of whether an immigrant/refugee could potentially produce a cabinet minister. I do not dispute that this is possible, I'm merely saying that it is totally irrelevant to a logical, moral debate on the issue.

    btw , just for fun - Ayaan Hirsi Ali got political asylum in Holland and acheived great political success. She was a poster-girl for just about everybody at one time. And she integrated so well that she's now working for a neo-con think tank in Washington. :0) Is that better or worse than Milliband?

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  73. Scherfig - good point, and it's my belief that the biggest problem we face in the medium range is population growth worldwide, which obviously goes hand-in-hand with resource shortages and climate change. It's all going to end in tears.

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  74. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  75. Medve

    Still doesn't mean that asylum seekers should have ops while handcuffed, or perish in a refugee prison fire at Schiphol, or the end of compassion in general.

    Good god, no it doesn't. The problem is that increasing population is going to create many more horrors of this sort and worse.

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  76. medve, please don't try to conflate asylum seekers in handcuffs with the larger and separate problem that is immigration/asylum seeking. That's a very cheap shot. Believe it or not, I am also compassionate enough to recognize that such events are a bad thing. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that I think that's it's wrong.

    (I know that doesn't address any of the real issues. but I've established my liberal credentials, right?)

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  77. Oh, and here's a <a href="Mother's day song</a>.

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  78. Jeez, thauma. I take it that you didn't send a card today? :0)

    What about this mama?

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  79. Scherf - I did the dutiful to avoid a fight - you know me. ;-)

    The M&P's - a seriously fucked-up bunch by all accounts, but some nice harmonies.

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  80. ^^That version has only half the song plus a long interview, but it's the only clip of it I could find quickly (it's a version I like).

    Here's the full Bob.

    Where is everyone? Am I all alone in the universe tonight?

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  81. Oh well, I'll just keep putting up some choonz.

    I can't help it if you might think I'm odd.

    Keeping it thematically consistent for now.

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  82. Thauma

    I be here again . Are you gone?

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