27 February 2010


Henry IV was crowned King of France in 1594.  The Dominican Republic became independent of Haiti in 1844.  The Rosenstraße Protest began in 1943, as the wives and family members of around 1800 Jewish men who were being detained engaged in non-violent protest for their release.  In 1973, members of the American Indian Movement occupied the church and trading post at Wounded Knee on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota to protest treatment of Native Americans by the US government.  The stand-off lasted for 71 days.

Born today:  Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882), Marian Anderson (1897-1993), John Steinbeck (1902-1968), Lawrence Durrell (1912-1990), Joanne Woodward (1930), Elizabeth Taylor (1932), Peter André (1973) and Chelsea Clinton (1980).

Purim begins at sundown.


  1. Morning all

    Continuing the AllyF business from yesterday evening, I would agree with Hank that Ally's posts have actually been worth reading lately because they have seemed to stray from the CiF propaganda line.

    When Matt Seaton struts into a thread and shouts his stupidity for all to hear, the main problem is that his attachment with the publication means that it is difficult to separate what he is saying as a smudgy individual from what he might be attempting to foist as the line of the publication.

    A similar thing seems to apply with those who have taken the CiF shilling. By having a mark placed on you, you might be subconsciously persuaded to temper what you say for fear of losing your perceived and displayed status.

    I would not suggest that anyone should not write for CiF when given the chance if that is what they choose.

    For myself, I have been happier constantly changing names and not having anything attach to me in terms of status because I am no one avatar for long enough.

    When I was at school and wanting to rebel, we were told to change the system from within.

    I think I prefer being on the outside with my normal thousand and one acts of daily sabotage.

    People here say about not posting on CiF any more because it is crap. It varies and sometimes something good manages to squeeze in past the vacant eyes of the editors.

    As rednorth has said, it is all propaganda which you have to puncture and rub the noses of the smug into the mess and wreckage.

    Once you recognise that what you write ATL or BTL is very unimportant, it gets easier.

    I don't always think that extended and reasoned arguments are the best method in all events, either.

    Sometimes, what people will remember is just the counter-propaganda and in those cases, within the way the terms of the debate have effectively been framed, you have won.

    After all, if we thought any of this was really important enough, we would all be on the streets with pointy sticks, wouldn't we?

  2. Morning

    How did it go last night Alisdair?

    MsC - Remember, we're supposed to be organising a get together in Sheffield. Talk about it on Wednesday?

    Atomboy - I find cif depressing these days and you're right, we're hardly changing the world when we strut our stuff there. Frankly, I would rather be on the street with a pointy stick at the moment - but then what do I know?

  3. Come on, north-easterners, we want gossip and pictures... hope it was fun!

    Atomboy - on the 'CIF being crap' theme, I sometimes get the feeling that I missed out on the 'golden age' by only really tripping over the site late 2008. The main change I can divine over my time on the board is the influx of ahem 'right'-thinking' ahem posters BTL, rather than ATL...obviously there's some crap, but there's still some good stuff...maybe it's easier for me, not having a job, so I can spend more time filtering that out and finding the interesting stuff! Anyway...

    Still ill. Never made it to the pub last night, watched the rugby at home (which was probably fortunate). May venture out for England v Ireland later...

  4. Atomboy, don't attach much importance to the blue 'C', So I wrote a couple of pieces ATL, they were my opinions and in that sense no different from from what I write BTL.

    It was fun and I got paid for it (quite nice when you are on a pension!) but I doubt if I will ever be asked again - I wont loose any sleep over that at all.

    There are other Journals more in line with my politics that I should be writing for anyway!

  5. Polly T may be trying to be nice and balanced on the immigration thread just up, but there are so many hooks in it for the frothing element that I'm not sure I can watch...

  6. 'Continuing the AllyF business from yesterday evening, I would agree with Hank that Ally's posts have actually been worth reading lately because they have seemed to stray from the CiF propaganda line.'

    Glad to hear atomboy and glad to be in company with you and Hank - Ally has been miles better lately.

    This from that handsome gent leo on the waddaya section -

    27 Feb 2010, 8:21AM

    Why has Ally lost his big 'C' in the Camila 'Compassion' thread? Is it because he shouted at Cath and is now in pre-Mod? He apologised immediately in a now deleted post - and in any case, his comment was no worse than many of the rest of us have been posting these days without the honour of being pre-modded.

    I stopped liking Ally's posts for a while - he dropped into a habit of lobbing little whimsy bombs onto threads without any real engagement (plenty of us can do that ahem) - but he is back on form these days and on fire he is as good as anybody on these threads which means far better than most - if you truly value your 'talented bloggers and writers' you would treat them with more respect.

    We all agree that this is the Guardian's playground and that it is great fun when it's all going well. It didn't go well on the Camila thread, where Ally spoke for me and several others and maybe spoke a bit over-harshly (one of the oddest threads ever on the Guardian I must say)

    But he did the right thing: he immediately said sorry, and I am quite sure Cath hasn't taken offence.'

  7. ***woot woot***
    ***woot woot***
    Brown thread up
    In the 'citizen ethics' series
    Stop laughing, everyone

  8. Morning all. Small but select group last night, with me, Chekhov (very nice guy) and monkeyfish (the Smokin' Joe of the internet:he'll get that). No major incidents, pub meh,some sparky international relations going on...
    Looked at that Polly thread, which taken in concert with some posts by New lab and Third way posters elsewhere would seem to indicate that the New Lab crew are going to try and play the immigration card, overlooking the fact that it's a problem they caused, looking for ever cheaper labour to satisfy their corporate masters. It is dog-whistle politics though, using immigration as a proxy issue/ a cover for race (they are not the same issue). Got sent some guff yesterday about an NHS consultation on 'health tourism' which contained quotes from the odious Phil Woolas (he who loves the UKBA, and denies their abuses). Now the actual cost of health tourism is tiny, really small, and the cost of this high-profile consultation isn't cheap, so I do wonder what's this all really about?
    My gut feeling is that New lab are desperate to recapture all of the voters they've betrayed, and they see such folk in their abysmal identity politics way as some homogeneous White Working Class bloc, a false grouping and stupid perception the idiocy of which is compounded by the detached neo-liberal wonks believing this artificial grouping to be racist and so they try to appeal to this false group by sending out coded messages.Identity politics as pursued by New lab has, in my opinion been more divisive and hence more racist, but they can't see or accept that.

  9. God, the Graun really is the servile lapdog of New Labour isn't it?

    New Labour latches on to John Howard style dog whistle politics and toot toot!! here's the Graun's no1 columnist blabbing the party line.

    The article is breathtaking in it's wilful ignorance of Toynbee's own past articles. She's a shapeshifter, shifting in whichever way NL HQ demands. Beyond satire.

    Alisdair hits the nail on the head again.

    Ally, nice to see you here. And if I may echo what others have said, been enjoying your posts the last week.

  10. Alisdair - the ref in the article (and standfirst) to migrants 'depressing wages' reminded me of (I think) BB's point on another thread that it isn't the migrants who depress wages, they've got bugger all to do with it, it's the bosses who depress the wages...

    To quote (again) a military mate of mine - "before firing weapon, make sure you're aiming at the right guy"

  11. That's my point exactly, Philippa.It's not the workers of any type or description, be they immigrants or not, who want cheap,disposable labour: it's the corporatists.

  12. Right. Definitely not returning to CiF today, with Gordon Brown (well,one of his wonks) attempting to give us all a lecture on ethics.[kudos to Philippa, atomboy, nemesis2 and others who are skewering him]
    The mendacious self-serving fraud (all that pious son of the manse bullshit) who worked to remove the people's voices from a once-noble party, who based economic policy on smoke'n'mirrors accounting, who eliminates dissent or even discussion,an enemy of civil liberties, a bank-roller and co-architect of illegal wars and the imposition of corporate-pleasing neo-liberalism? It can be filed away with his books on Courage and on Leadership (I shit you not:they exist), to sit next to Nixon on Honesty,Ceauşescu on Liberty,and Tiger woods on Fidelity.
    Bollocks to that. I'm off down the bookies instead:Coral go 150/1, that in Chelsea/Man City today Wayne bridge and John Terry both score at the same end...
    [seriously though if you fancy a punt today, steer clear of Bremen at Navan's 3.30,Bel Cantor in the 3.50 at Lingfield, and My Best bet in the 5.25 at Lingfield, as they all have the added weight of my each-way money]

  13. Alisdair

    My grandfather was a genius on the horses and basically lived on his winnings. Was also excellent source of advice to other punters in the family. After he died, my mother never laid another bet.

  14. ay, football then rugby today, more morality there than in politics, heh heh...

  15. Excellent posts on immigration above Alisair, especially -

    "It's not the workers of any type or description, be they immigrants or not, who want cheap,disposable labour: it's the corporatists"

    Short, to the point, spot on!

  16. Alisdair sorry for mis-typing your name!

  17. Afternoon all

    Polly article making my flesh creep. I have put one post on it and I shall leave it there. Dog whistle is the right term for it. New Lab can't come out straight and say "you know all these immigrants? Vote for us and we will send em home as well", but they can sure hint at it.


  18. Helloee

    BB - Will GB bring back the 2 million Brits from Europe - along with all the others scattered around the world?

    Playing, yet again, to the fears and baser feelings of the electorate. When will he - or any other politician - stand firmly against racism and everything it generates?

    Naked ambition spinning around a gutless centre of greed and inhumanity.

  19. Afternoon BBC (-;

    I've given up reading Polly, another one added to the list.

    Sheff - have spoken to BW today, we're both up for a Sheffield get-together. A Saturday would be preferable to Friday. Might even be within striking distance for Mr Fish, hopefully.

  20. I see all three leaders are trying to take the ethics high ground. It seems they have all noticed the lack of any decent ethic in politics - seem all to be dumping responsibility on society.

    I await the outlining of some 'ethical' policies which will work for everyone - including the poor.

  21. Erin Go Bragh!

    I assume you watched it, thauma? Exciting stuff, but commiserations to Mr Reilly. :0)

  22. Right Hank...MsC and I can discuss it on Wednesday and get back to you with some dates. Sat 27th March would be good for me as I'll be away until the 20th March. Have just booked a trip to Sarajevo.

    Where does Mr Fish hang out?

    I'd love to offer you somewhere to kip but as I've currently got two, otherwise homeless refugees here it would have to be sleeping bags on the floor - a comfy floor mind you, if you don't mind sleeping on Persian rugs.

  23. He's in sunny Teesside.

    No problem sheff, sure I can get a B+B sorted.

    Egg chasing good then, scherf? Shocking result for my boys today. Looks like it's the agony of the playoffs.

    Very pleased for Wayne Bridge earlier.

  24. A poor result for you today, Hank, but it's far from over. I can see Newcastle slipping up in the run-in. Gotta stay strong in football, like in so many other things these days..

    labi siffre

  25. OMG just looked at the Polly thread! I fear for my sanity so many posts so wrong in so many ways.

  26. Best not to look, anne. Polly's blogs have always attracted the madder element in the right-wing readership, and it's only going to get worse as the election nears.

    @scherf - just been watching the Arsenal game. Ramsey carried off with a broken leg, I missed the tackle and Sky showed unusual sensitivity in choosing not to replay it, so it must have been bad. The lad who fouled him saw red and walked off in tears, absolutely distraught.

  27. Flying visit from me - have skimmed the thread and an excellent first post from Atomboy and many follow-ups.

    Scherfig - of course I was watching - the victory was entirely due to me putting on my lucky silly Guinness leprechaun hat in the second half. Still have nail-marks in the palms of my hands though.

    Spent all last night consoling my Welsh mate so am rather tired now....

  28. Hank - I feel your pain as we had to watch GOD (Brian O'Driscoll for philistines) get carried off on a stretcher due to a knock on the head by one of our own, but luckily it seems he's OK.

    Last time around it was the Scottish player Thom Evans with a much nastier injury but he's had two surgeries and it seems that he too will be OK although it's not clear if his rugby-playing days are over or not. Horrible.

  29. Evening all. Been absent for a couple of days but just been reading up on the last couple of days threads and catching up on Alleygate. Welcome Ally good sir.

    Been up at my sisters visiting, hence the absence. Tis only a flying visit here as making tea and think the chicken is burning.

    I am glad I didn't read that compassion thread. It would probably have sent me loopy.

    Sheff, Hank et al - ooh a sheff get together. Hopefully by then can come along. Even if just for an hour or two.

    Montana - sorry you are still feeling so rough. I really hope you start to feel better soon.

  30. thauma - I thought ROG was GOD. It's obviously a very complicated game, this rugger thing.

    @PCC - would be good to see you. Better check on that chicken.

    Just heard from BW btw. He's watching a blues band, whose lead singer is an estate agent. He's not impressed. Seems a bit prejudiced to me.

    "Woke up this morning
    With the estate agents' blues
    The market's in a slump
    And my tape measure needs replacing..."

    Ok, he might have a point.

  31. Hank,

    ''woke up this morning,
    can't believe what I saw.
    Phil and Kirsty in a council house
    screaming 'fuck mortgages' and property law''


  32. Not really happening, is it, Duke, the estate agents' blues revival? (-:

    Surprised you haven't graced the Cameron thread with your thoughts...

  33. Hank,

    I was halfway through writing something earlier and I just thought, ''I cannot be arsed, I really cannot be arsed.''

    Out of interest, have you ever read any Slavoj Zizek? I'm in the middle of his 'In defence of lost causes' book. He's a bit post-modern but does just about pull it off without disappearing up his pre-semioticist arse.

    In the book he makes a heroic attempt to defend the Jacobin Terror from a far left point of view in terms of the fact that 'egalitarian terror' was not mob violence but the radical upheaval of social and economic relations.

    He argues liberals interpretation of the Revolution is the 'decaffeinated revolution' of '1789 without 1793', when it was in fact 1793 that brought modern Democracy in its first form whereas 1789 was the imposition of narrow,exclusive liberal bourgeoisie interests.

    He then goes on to suggest 'divine terror' is in the offing again as the world runs out of resources and appears to support the imposition of a Jacobin style terror and goes into detail about its imposition.

    I genuinely think he's potty by this stage until I read ATL and BTL on CiF.....

    What's interesting is his distate for liberals is much deeper than for conservatives.

  34. On the subject of the Cameron thread, I see Atomboy's post regarding Ashcroft were zapped both on the thread and WADDYA. Ridiculous.

    I also see the UT regulars are doing some sterling work on there as is some newcomer called 'HomagetoCatatonia'.

  35. Not read him, Duke, but the book sounds interesting. Might have misread your post but are you saying his thesis is potty because he argues that 1793 was the birth of true democracy, as opposed to the received wisdom that 1789 clinched the deal?

    1789 was a bourgeois revolution, just as 1649 was in England. (1688 should be discounted. That was a religious settlement between the elites.)

    Both involved regicide with the muscle of the poor to entrench the privilege of the middle classes.

    1789 enabled capitalism and a very limited form of democracy. The same democracy we saw in the UK with the Reform Acts of the Victorian era.

    FWIW, I don't discriminate much between liberals and conservatives when it comes to distaste. Although I have to say that at least the conservatives are less intellectually dishonest and less morally compromised.

  36. Chicken was overcooked but still quite tasty.

    Hank it would be great to meet people - I am useless, still not met Sheff or MsChin yet and they are in the same city!

    Its been a horrible day in Sheffield today, bleeding freezing cold and rainy. I have not seen the hills out the back of my house for days now and it is starting to get depressing. Roll on spring!

    Duke, I hate phil and Kirsty and never watch that blighted show. Isn't she meant to be standing for the Tories? A lot of men allegedly find her gorgeous - cant quite get my head round that one.

  37. They were indeed shit Hank. My mates were literally going top throw things. Got them out just in time. Heh.

    This is different..


    Homage sounds interesting, arf.

  38. "Both involved regicide with the muscle of the poor to entrench the privilege of the middle classes."

    English History Pass.

  39. Hank,

    no, I meant he gets a bit potty when he starts explaining how the terror can be implemented again in the future. He's bang on in his comparisons between 1789 and 1793.

    His essential point is that interpretations of the French Revolution very much mirror 'the history of the present' and at the moment, the 'liberal-conservative' interpretation is in the ascendant in terms of the Revolution being one long catastrophe.

    A catastrophe for Conservatives full stop despite modern Conservatism (a contradiction in terms) being established as a reaction against the 'modernism of the Revolution ie Edmund Burke's ' reflections'.

    A catastrophe for liberals as their cherished 1791 constitution of property law and liberty, egality and fraternity for themselves was rejected ultimately by both King and the sans- culottes.

    Historiography of the Revolution frequently ignores that the Jacobins saved France as the Terror was implemented as France fought four different powers and ultimately were successful by Robespierre's fall.

  40. Bitterweed,

    I'm assuming a band fronted by an estate agent would have had all the heart, soul and musical integrity of a Tesco club card?

  41. @Duke - you're right about Conservatism being born as a response to 1789. Burke and all.

    The really interesting character in the story of the French Revolution for me is Napoleon. For me, he epitomised the bourgeois nature of 1789 by wrapping its values in the French flag for the benefit of the propertied classes.

    Have you ever read Stendhal's 'Scarlet and Black'? Written from the perspective of a wide-eyed youth fighting the Napoleonic Wars in support of his messiah. One of the best novels ever written imnsho.

    Should I read this Zizek book, Duke? ie is it interesting and provocative, or will I just toss it aside after the first 50 pages before going out to firebomb Waterstones?

  42. Hank,

    it's certainly a provocative read in that he attempts and mostly succeeds in saving Robespierre, Mao, Lenin etc from contemporary historiography that all were inherently 'evil' and now discredited.

    I'm finding it difficult going in parts due to his syntax and sometime use of post modernist language but I'm really enjoying his bullish confrontational defence of those deemed persona non grata in our contemporary right wing world.

    So in a nutshell, it's rewarding reading but I have to really concentrate in parts.

  43. And I meant to say, I have never read Stendahl but I've read great things about him. He's definitely near my top 'to read' list.

  44. @Duke - cheers for that. I'll give it a spin.

    Anyway, moving on, anyone else depressed but not surprised that there are more posts on "the perfect cup of tea" thread than on any of the blogs by Brown, Cameron and Clegg?

    How superficial do people need to be to post opinions on how they pour boiling water into a cup?


    Absolutely fucking breathtaking.

  45. Hank
    Nice link the first one

    The second was, is and always will be fucking abysmal. What were you thinking???

    Fucking book readers.

  46. I have just been on to face book and discovered some cunts I vaguelly know are still cunts.

    Got to love the internets.

  47. Oh, Hank, I can't possibly thank you enough for the JLH. Something utterly unspeakable has been on a constant loop in my head for most of the day, despite my best efforts to chase it out of there. That did the trick.

    Read Le Rouge et le Noir ages ago, in French. Don't remember anything, I'm afraid. Probably ought to try it in English some day.

    Is it wrong that I still adore Lenin?

  48. Your Grace

    Don't know much about Zizek other than he's considered very controversial but quite like this quote of his - which suits my mood at present:

    The true ethical test is not only the readiness to save the victims, but also - even more, perhaps - the ruthless dedication to annihilating those who made them victims.

  49. How superficial do people need to be to post opinions on how they pour boiling water into a cup?

    I posted on that thread. In my defence, the first one was a swipe at Seaton.

    The second was, is and always will be fucking abysmal. What were you thinking???

    Oh, thank fuck I'm not the only one. I'd never heard the thing 'til a week or so ago. Couldn't stomach listening to the whole thing.

  50. Hell yes, Sheff. When does the revolution begin?

  51. "Is it wrong that I still adore Lenin?"


    You are better off with some dude's vision of Denns Wilson.


  52. That's a good one Sheff.

    Very much in the spirit of his liberal bourgeis baiting agenda.

    As regards your mood, I'm in the same place hence when Zizek talks about a reimplementation of the terror.....

  53. Your Grace

    This is Zizek on The Children of Men. His accent is a bit impenetrable but it's interesting.

    Theres also a vid of him discussing vegetarians that might be good.


    As soon as you like chuck. My sword is polished and ready.

  54. I met Matt Seaton once.

    On a train.

    He had no pad.

    It was hot.

    Things went by for a while including that annnoying thing about forgetting to keep the hanky after eating the blt.

    We went through a tunnel.

    And I stabbed the cunt in the face with a cheese and onion crisp four million times.

    The end.

  55. Annihilate the oppressors ? I have difficulty with this - morally but also because I can't identify any revolution that has brought a permanent solution to poverty and oppression.

    The desire to violently overthrow is understandable - what is to replace the overturned order is not clear cut - therefore the way towards it never mapped out.

    We as human beans seemed doomed to design closed, self perpetuating systems which do not allow for the unexpected - or human nature with all its variants.

  56. Here's Dennis Wilson giving it all up for ....?????

    Gorgeous west coast hippy nonsense I would offer.


  57. Sheff,

    that was really interesting.

    I liked his link between the film and it's representation of late capitalism (a topic Zizek is big on) and the suitability of the film being set in the UK, a country with no constitution and which exists on tradition.

  58. Yes, I noticed that Yr Grace, and the way things are going that dystopian world doesn't seem so unlikely any more.

  59. @BW and Montana - you are estate agents to the core of your empty souls.

    Neither of you would have any qualms about finding a love nest in Manchester for John Terry if the price was right.


    Cracking post on the Cameron thread tonight btw about Breaking3 being an anti-semite. She's a nasty bigot with astroturf support and needs to be confronted every time she trolls up on Cif.

  60. Hank

    I have never seen any of her posts - always deleted.

  61. Annihilate the oppressors ? I have difficulty with this

    Don't worry Leni, I don't think Montana and i could manage it on our own :-))

  62. Leni - nope, she rarely gets deleted, usually gets multiple reccs and never engages in debate.

  63. Well, I'm more than ready for a revolution. Non-violent overthrow would be preferable, but I've come to the conclusion that that just won't happen.

  64. Aw, c'mon, Sheff! We're woman enough for the job, aren't we?

  65. OK girls - I'll sharpen me sword. Something has to change.


    Just found one of her posts - about GOOD children. Couldn't really face any of the ethics thread - moralising from criminals beyond the reach of the law just might cause an attack of intemperate language. I have worked with children deemed not GOOD - tended to be not wanted either.

  66. Nice

    Here's this from true intinerant musical genius Lhasa de Sela. She died this new year. A tremendous loss.


  67. Montana

    Okey dokey - thats three of us then - and I think we can count on MsC, BB, Anne, Thauma, Princess and Phillipa. Shall we ask the chaps to join us?

  68. Montana
    When you get to the UK, I will watch Withnail, & I with you.

    We will laugh like drains.

    Until then, here's
    this xxx

  69. Sheff -- I'm all for letting the guys help, as long as they can keep up.

    Bitterweed -- nice. I look forward to it. But how are we going to get me over there?

  70. Montana

    Can I have a chariot with scythes on the wheels?

    Yes the chaps can join us - someone has to do the cooking.

  71. MW, you have to get the flight over when yr rewady. You can head home after the funeral. Meanwhile check these guys - this is my kind of folk.
    Fuck yeh.

  72. Definitely chariots Leni and Trebuchets as well. But instead of using dead donkeys to fling over the walls we'll use dead politicians. Should keep us going for a while.

  73. Arse Sheff !
    Check this for medieval rocking.


    Huzzaha !!

  74. I'm liking the sound of this more all the time. Chariots, trebuchets. And, of course, we can't forget the pigs.

    Bitterweed -- there will be no coming back this way for me the next time I get over there. I have promised myself. Next time is permanent.

  75. Well then let's get it sorted. Meantime, got a lunchtime gig tomorrow (later today actually)


    For you

    Some day x


  76. PS
    Matt Seaton. You are a complete cancer of a human being and you need to kill yourself.



  77. Okey dokey - who's got cut and paste powers? The Rawnsley thread will see a lot of deletions, and I'd like to think some of the posts will be saved for posterity.

  78. Shit. Could somebody else please give Barbara Ellen more of a shoeing? I'm too cross to be polite any more.

  79. The Rawnsley post is a disgrace. A fucking disgrace.

    I will never buy the Observer again.

  80. Haven't looked yet, Hank - perhaps the crossness will come in handy.

  81. Any particular comments, Mr. Scorpio?

    Not sure if I can stomach a BE column, Peter. But I'll try.

  82. From Rawnsley thread:

    28 Feb 2010, 1:35AM

    This is the point at which the Observer jumped the shark.

    Fuck them, fuck Rawnsley and fuck the New Labour fuckers who've been squabbling amongst themselves.

    I've always voted Labour because I thought it was a social democratic party, and I've always bought the Guardian and the Observer because I thought they adhered to similar values.

    I lost faith in NL as a social democratic party a long time ago, some time around the point at which Blair kneeled in prayer with Bush to get the head's up from God for the invasion of Iraq.

    Rawnsley of course supported the Iraq adventure, as did the Observer.

    Why? How could any social democrat or any liberal justify the invasion of Iraq? It was an old fashioned war of plunder, justified by idiots like Cohen and Rawnsley who tried to convince us that we were taking the oilfields becaue we had a moral right to them because Saddam killed innocent people.

    And then Rawnsley seeks to make money by perpetuating the lie about Iraq?

    And the Guardian and the Observer support his book launch?

    This is truly shameful.

  83. Also from Rawnsley thread:

    28 Feb 2010, 1:29AM

    Well done Princesschipchops as i always enjoy your pieces. Brilliant. I like your piece 1DC2 as it echoes my sentiments but written so wonderfully that I'm sitting in awe.

    I wish this useless waste of space would shuffle off somewhere else. I find myself utterly astonished by his gall and arrogance. I have said it before, and at the risk of being utterly boring and predictable, it is nothing more than a "set up". PCC is absolutely right. If the polls change dramatically in favour of the Tories this week then we certainly do know where to put the blame. I find it inconceivably that this dipstick is still being allowed to publish this garbage in TWO newspapers with absolutely no proof being given whatsoever. How can the Guardian publish this stinker. It reeks as that which you would find at the rubbish dump. Actually it is, to my mind, the only place where this book should be going.

    Sadly, people will believe it and of course that is the "game" Rawnsley is playing. As 1DC2 put it, we will end up with Mr Fluff and watch as thousands of innocent people join the dole queue and those of us still with jobs will indeed be taxed to death. Of course this odious man will not have to face such horrors. No he will still be raking in the money from his ill-gotten gains. Let's face it, he's no better than the filthy thieving bankers and thieving MPs. Disgusting, pathetic little man.

    By the way Rawnsley, Osborne said today that if he becomes chancellor he will be immediately cutting back on public spending and thus putting thousands of people out of work. This will of course mean that we will see a decline in all public services. The fragile economy will then see an even worse recession than we have now. And my fear is that we may never recover from it. If Osborne does as he threatens we will all be looking over the precipice of economic collapse. And this is the man you will be helping to elect.

    Nice one, you utter waste of space! I hope the royalties from your book chokes you.

  84. JedBartlett
    28 Feb 2010, 1:04AM

    'As for me, it has been brought home more starkly than ever before that there are two faces to politics ? the rituals played out on TV screens for the consumption of voters and the reality behind the scenes.'

    No - increasingly it is not played out for the consumption of voters but for the entertainment of the bloated media who, if not fed, feed on politics. That your book got so much media attention is a sad testament of how far the media has become obsessed with personality over substance.

    The voters are not as stupid as you think they are, of course it is known that politicians do not always like each other.

    Please don't insult me by pretending that this is in the public interest (as opposed to of interest to the public). The media, including you are not Servants of the People. You are serving nothing but yourself.

    Incidentally, are you aware of any bullying and personality clashes at media outlets - just out of interest.

  85. 1DC2
    28 Feb 2010, 12:57AM

    You know Brown is pretty much blind, and has been through the collapse of the financial sector and had to put up with Blair. Angry - who can blame him?

    Blair the man who is now out as a full Christian, who didn't during his time in office do God, but he did really, he filtered his political decisions through a relgious politicial philosophy domestically anyway, only to then carry out a Nietzschean foreign policy war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Nietzschean in the sense of: values plus will. The value of democracy and anti-terror via the extreme will of the bomb and bullet - the complete antithesis to religious philosophy. And Blair wondered why people thought he was mentally ill and confused. One hand Christian philosophy the other Nietzsche - "our values are worth fighting for".

    So - yes - Brown got angry and lost his temper - perhaps if you were blinded and had to take responsibility for those miserable, conniving, multi-billion pound wasters, the billion-pound resource blowers in the financial sector - I guess you might well clearly lose it too.

    Now if you'll excuse me, Mr Fluff is about to be elected, Mr Cameron, another sucker about to have his eye wiped by international capitalism while the plebs on the street lose their jobs and those that don't will be taxed to the hilt.

    Angry and bad tempered - aren't we all - what planet are you on Rawnsley because I want to come to it?

  86. princesschipchops
    28 Feb 2010, 12:57AM

    I really would hate to see the Observer fail and the Guardian. They are a bit of an institution in my family and one of my early memories are of my mum and dad and grandparents sat around after sunday lunch reading the Observer.

    But seven people I know, that buy it regularly have said they will stop doing so since these revelations. The fact is some very unsavoury characters came out in 'support' of this book - such as the charity Pratt. It makes the paper seem a bit shoddy and also some feel that it betryated New Labour. Now that doesn't bother me a jot as New Labour are dire but I think that if the polls next week show some serious damage and a swing to the Tories, due to this gossip, then we have to start asking ourselves if the Observer has joined most of the rest of the press in becoming a Tory rag.

  87. JoeMorgan
    28 Feb 2010, 12:50AM

    Yes we get it: You love Blair.

    Can you fuck off to the Mail now please?

  88. PeterJackson
    28 Feb 2010, 2:04AM

    The smugness and sanctimony just ooze over this piece, leaving us all stickier than when we started reading.

    Squalid, slimy stuff.

  89. 1DC2
    28 Feb 2010, 2:09AM

    I guess Rawnsley would have had his hands full and his head demented because if Brown hadn't bailed out the financial sector Rawnsley would have had to write up anger reports for the millions of people, British citizens that is, going buck mad when their savings got wiped out.

    Then the Guardian and not just Rawnsley would have witnessed, and may still do, some serious mass anger that of the mob that would make Brown's anger pale into significance, in fact it would make us all sentimental to have only that!

    The success of society, any society, is based on its resources.

    Don't people get it, the financial sector has blown close to £1trillion pounds worth of Britain's resources.

    Anger? We may well see proper angry the level of which may well be so severe that Cameron may not see out his expected Tory term in office.

  90. Thanks, Montana!

    I've been buying the Observer for 26 years, dating back to when I was a student and buying the paper every Sunday was a big chunk of my disposable income.

    I won't be doing so anymore. I'm not interested in enriching Blairite fuckers like Rawnsley, or his supporters like Jenni Russell.

    It's not easy to give up a Sunday paper that you've bought for 26 years. It's a big decision really, sad as that might sound, but I've become increasingly alienated from its politics and its lifestyle "values".

    So fuck em. And fuck Andrew Rawnsley, the smug cunt, making money out of other people's misery.

  91. Hank; good thinking on saving HomagetoCatatonia's Rawnsley posts - there are fewer deletions than expected, but yours are included.

    Thanks for the pasting, Montana - and for the elegant use of the 'Yes Minister' hypothetical on the Barbara Ellen thread!