21 February 2010


The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848. Gerald Holtom designed the peace symbol as a logo for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Malcolm X was assassinated in 1965.

It is Language Movement Day in Bangladesh.


  1. Oh brill thauma - you've got a wand now too.

    The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

    Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

  2. Ah, very good, thauma.

    Does language move?

  3. Film rec - watched 'Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs' yesterday and it was brilliant. I was quite drunk, admittedly, but it was still brilliant...

  4. I know its early for choons but this has just been played on Desert Island Discs - and its such a great song.

    We woke up to a heavy blanket of snow this morning - nothing moving, no roads gritted. Anyone know what its like in Essex, where I have to drive to tomorrow?

  5. Can't make my mind up about Brown's character flaws and uncontrollable temper. Read the story and the highlights of hsi demented tantrums seem to have been..

    #During one rage, while in his official car, Brown clenched his fist in fury after being told some unwelcome news and then thumped the back of the passenger seat with such force that a protection officer sitting in the front flinched with shock. The aide sitting next to Brown, who had just told him the information that provoked the outburst, cowered because he feared "that the prime minister was about to hit him in the face".#

    #"Why have I got to meet these fucking people?" he yelled at Wood. "Why are you making me meet these fucking people?" Brown then roughly shoved aside the stunned adviser.#

    #When Brown was accused of plagiarising phrases used by Al Gore and Bill Clinton in his 2007 conference speech, the prime minister screamed at a shaking Shrum: "How could you do this to me, Bob? How could you fucking do this to me?"#

    ..so, he's got a bit of a temper..did he actually assault or sack anyone? I get the feeling that the No 10 staff were secretly disappointed because they'd been mesmerised by that vacant saccharine twat Blair...who I dare say was probably all smiles and secretly stabbed you in the back later..I'm sure with Brown it's a brief flare up and forgotten...all I can say is: it's a fuckin good job they don't live with me..if these incidents make Brown a demented loon then any random 20 minute period in our house would probably have Andrew Rawnsley diagnose the lot of us as violent psychopaths.

  6. Says more about the Westminster Village than much else I'd have thought MF. There are people operating on an executive level in the NHS trust where I live who would make Malcolm Tucker look like Gareth Gates.

    "Anyone know what its like in Essex".
    There are so many possible answers to this... Q: What does an Essex girl put behind her ears to make her more attractive?
    A: Her feet.

  7. Philippa - maybe language has bowel movements? Like when Brown verbally shits on his staff?

    MF - I'd be furious too, if my speechwriter had plagiarised. That's clearly understandable.

  8. Aye, Sheff but he's blotted his copy book, Phil 'Cuntsac' Collins!?! We had a light dusting Friday in the Borders, No snow since...

    Does language stop Philippa? It's constantly shifting isn't she?

  9. Incredibly distressing article here:

    The 10p drug turning Argentina's slum children into the living dead

    "This place used to be a real neighbourhood, people had work. We were poor but we were a community; now it is al crime and drugs and sewage. There is no work, the factories all closed. some of the women go into the city to clean rich people's houses and a few of the men collect cardboard. But there is nothing for the young people".

  10. Paramedic at the scene of a car smash: How many fingers am I holding up?

    Essex girl: OMG! I'm paralysed from below the waist

  11. turminder - as ever, I took 'movement' a bit too literally and was imagining language running away and then peeking out from beind a bookcase or something...

  12. Why do Essex Girls take the pill?

    So they know what day it is...

  13. Monkeyfish - I am with you on the Brown 'revelations'. What a load of rubbish about nothing. I reckon that the Westminster lot just can't handle any emotion of any sort. When I worked in finance people would f' and blind all the time and shout a lot at times too. I had clients who I might have had a drink with the previous week call me up and give me a right ear full on the phone. But it was always done in a 'Princess this isn't at you personally but what the fuck have ... done with this bond?' kind of a way and never really bothered me.

    But when I moved into lecturing it was a total culture shock. Everyone was quietly spoken and so pleasant - but the management were absolute slave drivers. But all done with a smile. If you got angry with them at any point it would just be a nice smile and a steady repeat of their position, which would be something along the lines of 'but we really need to take another 80 hours of course time off you this year or we will have to lose the whole course'. Insincere smile! Gah - give me the finance lot any day.

    I can deal with temper outbursts - I cant deal with smiley, backstabbing sociopaths.

    Fine covering of snow eh Sheff? Makes the place look magical but not able to get out anywhere due to lack of any gritting etc as you say.

  14. Management is one thing - HR quite another. I think they may recruit based on deep-seated personality issues.

    Favourite line from my old HR 'manager', when I told them of a bereavement so needed to notify taking holiday at short notice to attend the funeral. Holiday because it was 'Aunty Phyllis' (Mum's Godmum) which relationship I had to explain to establish that this was not covered by 'compassionate leave'. Fine, but then:
    "Oh, what a shame. Still, if there weren't any other relatives, your mum'll inherit, won't she?"

    Have genuinely never been so close to hitting someone who hadn't physically attacked me.

  15. Princess

    I cant deal with smiley, backstabbing sociopaths.

    Plenty of those in my place of work. Give me a bit of passion any day at least you know where you are with that.

    I have a nephew who works in the cabinet office - I'll have to ask him what he knows.

  16. Hi guys

    1st a correction, I replied to TXuss when I should I have meant T Dunc sorry and see I do make mistakes duh.

    Sheff depends (re quote) what is a class? What was it Scherfig posted last night"Cif are total wankers" as a class? Each of them? Total?

    Given that cif and UT overlap where does that leave you lot (and me since I am posting this), are we all partial wankers? I mean you know I guess I am :).

    Phillipa, imagine a space (infinite of course) and draw a couple of lines (orthogonal if you like) in it. Gives you your 2x2 (must say more used to 2x4x3x4 with continuous covariance, maybe). But as the space is infinite you could move them about an awful lot. Are they infinitely long, in principle but you could probably soak up most of the variance within a short line (even money 0 - trillions leavers trillion trillion trillions).

    But, for instance, left/right have different meanings in diff soc/historicak contexts.

  17. Oh and re your "Cif Cabinet" you need someone who knows what they are on about too but as an eminence gris I live in the shadows (where else would you find a goblin king?)

  18. Oh and the UT is very little like a family, as groups they are different ontologically, as different as a virus and a dog. It helps to have a theory to base your taxonomy on. Ask Dot.

  19. Oi, my son was born in Essex.

    I know, I know, I know. What can you do? Hospitals 'is' hospitals.

    Sheffpixie, you should be ok. Just been on the blower to someone who lives in deepest, darkest Essex (Braintree) and they said they only had a dusting there last night which has already been washed away by the rain.


  20. "Given that cif and UT overlap where does that leave you lot (and me since I am posting this), are we all partial wankers? I mean you know I guess I am :)"

    You could have a point there pen. Fortunately I'm banned from being a wanker.

  21. I know about the X/Y axis of politics, which is presume is what the ref to 'orthogonal' is about, and what I was about on Waddya, and the Venn Diagram approach to identiy politics, but this isn't actually quantum physics, so maybe that purist approach distracts from the actual arguments that we are seeking to have within and between the various sectors / sets? Binary may work in computing but I'm not sure it works in the sphere of politics...

    New words learnt today: "Orthogonal" and "taxonomy"

  22. Watto Blaza. I remember you.

    Q. What do Essex girls use for protection during sex?
    A. Bus Shelters.

  23. monkeyfish - in that case, surely you can only rebel against that by being a wanker?


    (and recognising the invalid middle syllogism thingy, just to avoid anyone having to explain)

  24. Bitterweed that last one is funny. Sheff - yeah get all the gossip and bring it to the Untrusted.

    Pen - I must be really thick (I am) but I still don't get what you are on about.

  25. Hi pen, how goes? Everything tends to have a bit more meaning when it's put in context and it should have been obvious that my terrifically elegant phrase, "Cif are total wankers" referred to Cif as an 'institution', or more specifically, the policies and people that administrate and moderate the discussion site. To address the point you make make on what I didn't say, Cif/UT overlap (such as it is) might be represented as a Venn diagram showing some dots (people) in various different areas, but the quality of partialwankerness is not conferred on any individual merely according to their position on the board. Do you see what can happen when language is not clear and things get a bit abstract? Any possible interpretation can be drawn from any post (and frequently is, often to great hilarity or a good scrap). It struck me reading yesterday's posts that if a function of a blog or discussion site is to communicate with others, then relatively clear language should probably be used. I suppose that I could say exactly whatever I want to here in Danish or Swedish - it would be an accurate reflection of my views, and I'd be quite happy that I'd made an excellent, erudite point on eg. hats in the Middle Ages, but I don't think there would be much point in doing that, do you? For one thing, people wouldn't bother to look at it. If my function was to communicate my views, then I'd have failed. Similarly with your style of presentation - your posts may well contain nuggets of gold, but I guess we'll never know :0) And that would be a shame.

  26. Oh fuck..this is gonna be a bloodbath

    here come the heroes

    I don't know why she does this..if you're determined to be a contrarian, why not use it to have a swipe at other people? Why make a twat of yourself?

    She's got form as I recall...she's been taken to pieces in the past...maybe she puts it down to generational prejudice and innate reactionary tendencies but the worst thing is she has a point: she is part of a generation that's had a bad deal..but "we're a generation of heroes"; coming, as it does from another middle-class, Oxbridge blogger who hasn't actually got a fuckin job or any intention of getting one is not really doing her generation any favours. Possibly she thinks she can kick her heals and tantrumise herself into politics or a cushy commentariat slot?

    "Tamsin Omond, 25, who was in training to be an Anglican priest before she became a climate activist, has said: "I didn't feel like there was any energy for change in the church – I knew I could do so much more."

    Funny, tragic and painfully devoid of awareness on so many fuckin levels...

  27. Do we think we know everything at 18? And then spend the next 30 years reaching the state of knowing that what we think is next to nothing?

  28. I'm trying to remember what bus we were waiting for now? Must have been well hammered that night, or was it day?

  29. So this 'hero' generation are 'bland' they do not want to 'create' or rebel? Well what sort of heros are they then? And it sounds nothing like the generation who fought in the second world war. So the world is crumbling around their ears and she expects that her generations answer is to save us by sitting at home and accepting the status quo?

    This is based on that really bizarre sociology book that claims there are only four different sets of generations and they come around again and again.

    The Anglican Priest bit was priceless.

  30. See Peter Bracken looked in yesterday. He seems to think I've been bitchy about him, but if you're around Peter, it's the tone you sometimes adopt (rather too de haut en bas) that grates, not so much who you are. For bitchiness, better look to others: one prominent CiFfer has it down to a T.
    Anyhow, now you've looked by and in open UT spirit, since you have revealed at CiF that you have connections with England,but Bracken is a surname with Irish roots what's your prediction for the game next weekend? Let's get on to the important stuff...

  31. Ah yes, MF, that Penny thing is going to get nastier.

    "We're the young generation, and we've got something to say."

    The Monkees were never wrong, were they?

  32. Well, after the Wales v Scotland last weekend, am actually rather looking forward to Wales v France on Friday. But am suspecting the result may be less happy for my dragony friend...

  33. Ah, Sonic Youth's 100% on 6Music.

    True boogie music...

    "Well, I've be around the world a million times,
    and all you men are slime..."

    (heh heh)

  34. Wales France ought to see tries. Have been gutted for differing reasons with Scotland so far, but we are playing in a more positive vein than,say, England (God, the press conferences by the English crew after the Italy game were amazing in their delusion). We should beat Italy, but of course Sod's law dictates that 2 weeks later, England will gub us at Murrayfield, playing expansive stuff that Johnson hates, but his players decide to implement anyhow after their defeat at the hands of Ireland. [puts away crystal ball]

  35. Afternoon, all.

    Bitterweed I'm groggy and weak, so pretty much back to normal, cheers.

    Hank, I'd go on your mate's stag party. Every Israeli I ever met was really nice - it's just their government that do bad things. I doubt they'd let me in, though, I've been to Libya (nice people, too).

    Pen, for what it's worth I think you write beautifully and say more in a sentence than I could in a book.

    Monkeyfish - you must be in blue nose heaven, especially if the blue half of this town beats us shortly.

    Once again, thank you to all for many kind words.

  36. Alisdair - good oh, because England Italy was a bit dull (I don't understand the game, really, so it's the long runs down the touchline, and the fights, that interest me most)

  37. habib - hope the grog helps! so you're scouse in manc, eh? interesting situation. am pro-city meself, so am just off to try to find out which pub with which tv channels is showing the damn thing.

    also need cigs and lunch.

  38. Turminder, bruv that was a brilliantly written article, you have to submit more. You've got a great writing style and an honesty many others lack. Hated reading some of the comments, but they're just dickheads - fuck em.

    Well done, mate!

  39. Phillibee (do you mind me calling you that)
    No grog for a month for me(!?!) It's the only thing I'm good at, is drinking! sob!
    Enjoy the game and good luck.

  40. Philibee was indeed a nickname from long ago, feel free...

    (better than 'pip', heh heh)


  41. Philippa - a bit boring? Most tedious match EVER! Hope Ireland don't try to match England at the kicking game. I expect they will do for a while, but will then open it up.

    Habib - no sauce? Now you REALLY have my sympathy.

  42. Saw live the stake in the heart that Wales delivered last week, Alasdair. Such is sport today: the interest lies in the forlorn hope of Davids' slayings of Goliaths, not that the Welsh would see it that way.

    It's a contest between England and France, of course. And with feet in both camps, by dint of my son's Frenchness, I'll support whichever team wins!

  43. Grim off the grog Habib, but I too have to have more periods of abstinence, starting tmra, honest. Thanks for the kind words, I'll think of some stuff and pitch when I have.

    That wee lass will look back on her words in a decade and think, 'how up myself was I..' The plot of the current series of Heroes is a bit convoluted tho.. Thas probably where she's drawn inspiration..

  44. Sheff - It's Ok here - a typical February Sunday afternoon. Cold and grey but nothing life threatening. I haven't seen the forecast for later or tomorrow so don't know what is coming but it doesn't look like you have much too worry about.

    On a different topic, there is a Muslim protest of some sort going past my window as I sit here and as they do periodically. I'm guessing that they are protesting, they seem to be unhappy about something. Thing is, they are chanting in whatever language they are chanting in. Sorry, I'm not even going to pretend I know what language it is, my limited language skills only encompass Europe and Africa. Their banners are likewise not legible to me.
    So what, I ask, is the point of protesting when the only people who can understand what you are protesting about are your fellow protesters (And the odd passer by maybe)? Maybe someone has not pointed out this little logic problem to them.

    If I had to guess though, I'd say they are protesting about Hank going to Israel.

  45. Glad to hear it habib.

    Sheff, you told me about this a few weeks ago when we were out on the lash.

    It must be shared with everyone...

    Gardening on Salvia.


  46. tigerdunc
    My uncle went to watch Sheffield Wednesday v Luton 1984, when there were great big cages in the stand, and all the Luton were in one cage and a fight broke out among them.

    The police let them get on with it.

    OK, it's not similar at all to your story but it still makes me chuckle.

  47. BW

    It isn't, but it did me as well.

  48. See the end of that link BW v=EVllL4tNZsI

    looks like GIYUS' next handle = )

  49. OK, do you really think you all understand each other? I doubt it somehow myself, that's why we are where we are isn't it?

    There are many potential readers they will not all read the same thing in the same way, of course, in practice, they tend to be dominant readings. More extensive readings will vary more.

    Of course it is not 'quantum physics' its kinda more basic. Feynman did say once that he was able to explain q chromodynamics or something simply he wouldn't have got a nobel for it. (And I know I am not Feynman anyn more than I am Bowie duh. Do you all have only one look? Magnum or is it Bluesteel?)

    All my nuggets are fairy gold anyway Sherfig be a 49er or not, I don't care.

    Thanks Hey Habib, since some appreciate me I have some motivation to continue.

    To elaborate means I have to post more, for all sorts of reasons I have much reluctance to. Many like posting about themselves and their own interests and sure whatever.

  50. Ha ha. Indeed. GIYUS goes where no other poster dares.

  51. Habib, good to see you back on the keys. I did my best to pass by here on the lookout for your AV over the past week.

    Take it easy yeah.


    !!!that's gonna be me for a bit now!!! The dual core ACER (highly recommend if you've got the readies) will be leaving soon :-(

  52. Take care Blaza, hope you can sort a machine soon..

  53. Hmm just read that article MF

    She's right about her generation being unable to write a decent tune though. I mean. Rufus Wainright ??

  54. Fuckin hell

    Feisty young Spartette blames the Baby Boomers...and for a bit of 'balance'..who do they wheel out with a not completely unexpected cry of.."it wasn't us it was Thatcher"..

    it's Lady Yoghurt Knitter

  55. Hi All

    Snowed heavily here last night - now melting away in the clear bright sunshine. Species crocus cowering in bud - ready to pop out as soon as it is safe. Early spring on way.

    Pair of red kites circling above as a write. Dot - should you come this way - read that fat is bad for feathers - should I stop feeding feathery ones fat balls? Feeling guilty.

    Rugby - a mysterious and foolish game.Lots of pushing and shoving , men in heaps doing I don't know what. Very popular hereof course. A win or loss sets the tone for at least aweek. A miserable Welshman is not a good thing to behold.

    Hello Pen - you move in mysterious ways.

  56. You see I mentioned I have been told that I looked like Bowie because I had been asked to help others understand (some) of my posts.

    It quickly conveys a lot of info and helps characterise me more finely, helps many readers place me more particularly. It is true since many have so noted it.

    The easy reading is both - looks (a bit) like Bowie
    - he's vain and conceited

    I posted knowing both are dominant readings to readers ie will be actually read by some of you. First is more dominant than second.

    Right on cue Hank came carping.

    A more subtle reading would consider re sex/ gender identity how this plays out for me in reality. Homophobic abuse etc for instance.

    I could go on. But why bother?

    I only know and am what I know and am because of all others, mostly I refer to other people and not myself. It's called referencing.

    I read lots of you all, why get so shirty about reading me a bit?

    (Hi Bitterweed, really wish you did that linky thing)

  57. I just went a bit spare on the Laurie Penny thread. I can't abide reverse snobbery any more than I can abide snobbery, and that is what the sniping at her is. Cif really does attract its fair share of petty minded wankers.

  58. tigerdunk

    are wankers just those with whom we disagree? Do we want universal agreement?

  59. Dunno know about the others, pen, but my look's strictly Magnum. My Blue Steel look won't be ready to be unveiled on Untrusted for at least a couple more years. :0(

  60. Hank

    Just read your post from yesterday. Israel - to go or not to go?

    I think yes - perhaps your brand of loving kindness may soften a few hearts. x

  61. Leni

    Hell no, universal agreement? How dull. No, these are people who don't engage with the authors argument, but automatically assume because she went to Oxford or worked for a Labour MP, that they can launch into ad fem attacks.

  62. Hi guys,

    sounds nice Leni

    Hi Scherfig, you do know it's the same? Go for it now.

  63. It's the same???? Well, that's seven years of hard work that I'll never get back. Why did nobody tell me?

  64. Afternoon Untrusties

    Just pottering through CiF - haven't been out to get a New Observer yet. Doubt it is anything nearly as good as the Nouvel Observateur they have in France, but anyway...

    I hear Rawnsley is stirring up a hornet's nest. Heard a clip of him on the R4 news earlier saying he has only published the bits he has utterly impeccable sources for and has left out tittle-tattle. Blimey. Grumpy Gordon it is then.

  65. monkeyfish

    I was an intolerable know it all at 20 and definitely thought I could save the world. I realised later that I hardly understood anything then and still don't but I'm probably still pretty intolerable at times.

    Still, I can't say I go in for this penchant for destroying youthful posters on cif, its too easy and a bit cheap - we've all been yoofs ourselves, albeit some more pretentious than others. The problem for me is the very small pond cif fish in. It would be great to hear from young people who are really on the front line.

    Amelia Hill did a piece in the paper about the pressures teenage girls are under - interviewing 4 of them from a tough housing estate in Sheffield. don't think its up on cif though

    Just been reading the extracts about Broon from Raawnsleys book. Personally, it had the effect of making me dislike him a soupcon less than I did before. At least he sounds like a human being - which wasn't true of that smiley, oily creep, Blair.


    Did I? I was drunker than I thought. Any other secrets likely to come out of the woodwork?

  66. PS: re the destroying youthful posters. I should 'fess up to doing it myself once, someone called sixsmith, before I realised he was only about 18. Felt like a total arsehole afterwards.

  67. tigerdunc

    Agreed - one of the worst features of cif - attacking people simply because of background. The all shapes and sizes thingy gets drowned in a homogenous lump of hatred. Probably why the civil society (in all its meanings) has foundered.

  68. Re Brown well whatever you guys all mad stuff if you ask me (no one does).

    But then I am off with the faeries, a crazy Jane.

    Where else would the erl king be? Labyrinths trap the minotaur and not the sacrifice.

    Jorge Luis Borges is very good even if Labyrinth is a bit silly and DB looks a bit daft.

    I did mention a Borgesian bar in an earlier post, text folds and unfolds as does reality.

  69. That Amelia Hill article is here if anyone's interested:

    What are girls supposed to do

  70. Generational groups - cohorts - intergenerational conflict discounting of future generations blahHow do we imagine the future?

    The young are our kids but hey lets beat up on them.

    My kids are great

  71. Leni

    Whatever you do, don't say 'I*****y p******s'. You'll wake the monster.

    I just hate the hyprocrisy that assumes it is OK to attack people just because they are lucky enough to be born in to well off families. Judge me by my words and deeds, not by my parents or my school. (Not that I was born into a well off family at all).

  72. Pen

    The labrynth does indeed trap the monster.

    I have wondered since childhood why the sacrifices wandered into the centre. Why not stay by the entrance where the monster couldn't find them? After all those driving them forward could themselves only go so far in themselves - too far and they too would be lost.

    Do we seek the monster?

  73. tiger, I think the objection that most people have is that simply because some people were 'lucky enough to be born in to well off families', they are then to be found constantly pontificating above the line in The Guardian. There can be no serious argument that this unending succession of 20-somethings attained this position by merit. You have no doubt seen the list of the many Oxbridge grads who write for the Guardian. To say they are overrepresented in positions of influence in our so-called meritocratic society is an understatement. And that's a problem with the self-perpetuating system which the Guardian itself gladly embraces, whilst spouting hypocrisy and cant about equality. Although everybody should be judged on their words and deeds, let's just say that these spoilt, molly-coddled products of nepotism are casually handed a much more visible platform to present their words and deeds. And having been judged by the unwashed rabble (who, of course, know no better), the vast majority are found wanting.

  74. Can't remember too much Sheff.

    Good article by the way, if depressing, especially the resesarch from Twenge.

  75. Hello everybody
    Lots has happened since I've been away. Am glad to hear Habib is feeling better and can someone post the link too Turminderxuss' article.

  76. Sheff

    Come off it, I don't go in for youth bashing..I go in for gobshite bashing..and they come in all shapes, sizes, ages and genders.

    I'd like to say they come from all backgrounds and social classes too..and it's certainly true that they do...but not when we're talking about CIF...the only diversity there seems to be on shape, size, age and gender. Besides, whatever young people think of having Laurie Penny as a mouthpiece...just how much worse for the babyboomers with Comrade Dworkin OBE providing the rebuttal.

    There might be something to the reverse snobbery thing...it's just that it's impossible to say because we never get a representative set of articles on which to form a conclusion. Maybe if there were a decent proportion of articles by 'regular' people the Oxbridge, nepotism and bourgeois jibes might abate...

    So let's hope they get the message soon

    and, as scherfig says..it's not the background per se; it's the presumption and sense of entitlement..how can anyone, never mind someone with her background, claim to be speaking for a generation?

  77. Apparently you can't say anything about Barbara Ellen being boring or you get removed. Does anyone else think the level of moderation on CiF has reached completely dictatorial?

  78. ok just found/read article from a link on WDYWTA. Good job Xuss!
    However found myself a little allignned with Kizbot on this, though I do believe you were telling it as it is rather then condoning...maybe I should post all this on the thread.

  79. Ms Robinson

    Moderation is an arcane art . mods are removed from normal society for a period of 6 months and completely restructured before being allowed anywhere near a keyboard.

  80. Leni, Keep feeding the birdies, they'll be trying to pair up for spring and need high protein food, also check they have water, not frozen..

    There you go Mchica = )

  81. Leni - "...perhaps your brand of loving kindness might soften a few hearts."


    Maybe I could use the trip as the basis for my application to be Peace Envoy to the Middle East. That job's not taken, is it?

  82. Ha, beat me to it, And the green eyed bitey has a pop at the end, what a charmer...

    mac is being a bit temperamental, listening to the latest Falco, it keeps saying you are not connected to the internet.. Where are the voices coming from then?

  83. Hank

    You would be excellent peace envoy - the post is currently unfilled. has been in fact for several years.

    A bit of banging together of heads, straight talking and refusal to accept BS could go a long way. Tell it how it is - don't be part of the fantasy. You could use the slow. deliberate dignity of the severely pissed to put your point across in simple, monosyllabic language. Go for it.

  84. Xuss

    I have fed the birds here for so long that many are really tame - so tame in fact that a flight from the nest of bluetits last year finished up sitting on Dogge. Dogge was amazed and enchanted.

  85. Aye simple pleasures hhard to beat eh Leni? I have a robin and a lady blackbird who come and eat at my window sill..

    Ms R, she don't like it if you post this either..

  86. nae worries Mchica, u got an opinion on;

    21 Feb 2010, 4:57PM on WADDYA?

  87. Just saw that post too on waddya, Turminder. People buy into all the hype that all muslims are x to such and extent that when they actually meets some in real life they fall over from shock!

  88. monkeyfish

    I wasn't accusing you personally - just saying I didn't particularly care for the style of some of the bashing that goes on on cif - particularly when its directed at a yoof being a bit, well, youthful in their opinions. I have no objection to humorous sideswipes and taking the piss - just don't like the malice.

    I also said something to the effect that the real problem lay with cif and the very limited sphere they commission work from. I think they need to open it up to a much greater range of voices.

    Trouble with cif is that its become predictable - mostly the same kind of people trotting out more or less the same ideas ad infinitum, with the odd contrarian thrown in to keep us all happy. Dull is the word I'm searching for I think.

  89. Sheff Pixie I'd go with that view. Perhaps a ban on certain topics for a while- the usual stuff - as it would force everyone to think a bit harder.

  90. Ms r

    Isn't that what WADDYA is supposed to be about - suggesting new topics/ There seems to be a staple diet fed to us by Cif - with the odd new topic here and there. Very few quirky angles on life - all the usual tramline stuff.

    Turminder's article was a good observational piece, the byeways and backwaters of British life are seldom explored.

  91. I think I said the other day that Cif has become a little directionless, or maybe too unidirectional. Either way, diveristy of writers and topics seems to be suffering. Too many Oxbridge grads maybe, but then take it up with the editorial and commissioning staff, not young writers taking a chance to get something published in a very competitive world.
    If I started a comment along the lines of 'You have no right to have an opinion on anything because you came from a poor background and went to your local state school' I can't imagine that I'd get much peace.
    And please don't think I'm defending my own tribe. My grandparents were, respectively a co-op manager, school dinner lady, blacksmith and maidservant to the rich lady on the hill and I was born on a council estate.

    And I've never even been to Oxford.

  92. "particularly when its directed at a yoof being a bit, well, youthful in their opinions."

    Sorry sheff, but I think you're being a bit kind here..I thought what she wrote was shite..and I don't think I'd be any more ready than you to put that down to her youth..I certainly don't draw the inference..

    being young = talking bullshit

    Certainly I'll forgive a certain naivety, and that thing you do when you're young and something occurs to you and you think "fuck me, I'm a genius"...then you find some Greek or Roman or a guy in Croydon thought of it ages ago and it's all a bit past its sell by date and there've been untold better ideas since...but I'd be expecting a bit of enthusiasm and dive, though, which is notably absent from the article.

    She seems to have chanced upon a book by a couple of American sociologists or social historians who've hit on a generational perspective to history and found a reference to her own generation which allows her to indulge in a bit of conceit and victimology. Whether or not their 'generational' approach is a particularly useful or accurate methodology isn't a question that seems to have bothered her at all.

    Personally, I doubt it's a especially enlightening. As you might have guessed, I'm more of a Zinn man in that respect where US history's concerned...I'm probably gonna bring pen bearing down on me for this...but, I think class histories are far more meaningful than anything that lumps society into units based effectively on birth dates....and as she claims to be a "shouty young socialist" or whatever...shouldn't she be saying so to?

    Instead she takes what is effectively a gimmick and uses it as a hook on which to hang a load of preaching and whingeing...twas ever thus etc...but I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that, whatever happens to the world's natural resources, there's no shortage of potential Campbells and Bindels in the future.

  93. monkeyfish

    I am a bit kind...at least I hope so and I am a bit soft on young people as i generally like them a lot, know how easily they wound, and they make me laugh.

    But essentially I agree with your last post - certainly re the 'preaching and whingeing', although what got me was the ultimate dreariness of what she was saying. At least she came btl - but maybe that was just youthful cockiness!!

    and that thing you do when you're young and something occurs to you and you think "fuck me, I'm a genius"

    Did that, remember it well.

  94. btw - am reading Zinn's People's History of the US - loving it.

  95. @Tigerdunc - "Too many Oxbridge grads maybe, but then take it up with the editorial and commissioning staff, not young writers taking a chance to get something published in a very competitive world."

    It has been taken up with the editorial and commissioning staff endlessly on Waddya. Occasionally, some small concession is made, such as Turminder's piece this week, but generally it's ignored.

    I agree a bit with the idea that the savaging that young kids get when they publish something ATL is criticism misplaced, but the only example of bullying I can recall is Gogarty-gate. The Cif eds should hang their heads in shame for exposing the poor lad to that.

    The other young writers, such as Jessica Amato and Laurie Penny, are not that young or green. They're experienced bloggers, policy wonks, savvy little sharks in a nasty sea they pollute as much as anyone else.

    And surely the whole point about "the competitive world" you refer to is that they are trading on their connections to get ahead of those who didn't go to Oxbridge and don't move in the very small media clique that the Cif eds, Penny and Amato flourish.

    Having said all that, I do think, at times, that a lot of the criticism of Cif on here is misplaced. We make the mistake of thinking that because a lot of us are lefties, and that we post on Cif, that Cif and the Guardian are also leftish.

    The Guardian is and always has been the paper of choice for middle class liberals, the type who wring their hands over poverty at dinner parties.

    They believe in equality as long as it doesn't impinge on their own wealth and status. They celebrate equal opps if it results, as it has, in households in which both partners are pulling in big wages.

    They don't believe in Marx, or class, or addressing inequalities of wealth or educational opportunities.

    Why should they?

    The status quo suits them very well.

  96. Hank

    The status quo is loved by those it advantages - for those on the sticky end it can be hell.

  97. Hank
    "Maybe I could use the trip as the basis for my application to be Peace Envoy to the Middle East. That job's not taken, is it?"
    Not in any meaningful way, pet.

    Well, City v Liverpool turned out to be 90 minutes of unmitigated pish (good to see the game being played in such a sportsmanlike fashion though - reckon 'Pool could have picked up a couple of reds there, had reffy been paying attention).

    Agree w monkeyfish that class investigations of society are more interesting than assigning spurious generational groupings - mainly because the 'main' voice of each generation tends to at fairly similarly - start out radical, kicking against their parents orthodoxies, then get a bit bitter, then become their parents...and the voices we hear do tend to be of a certain class, separated only by the generations.

    I'm possibly shooting myself in the foot because my background is actually quite similar to Ms Penny's - encouraged by non-grad parents to go to uni and ending up at oxford. where i did ppe. how I'm not in the cabinet, I don't know. anyway - my point is that I probably have quite a lot in common with her, including having, at that age, really important views on the world.

    i agree, of course, that the narrow range of voices we hear from is to the G's discredit - but occasionally want to squeak that not everyone who went to O&C is a total cunt. mind you, that went brilliantly last time i tried it...

    but i do like to think i would have been able to develop an argument with slightly more coherence than Penny.

    probably just kidding myself.


  98. What I'm thinking of people is just removing the usual old chestnuts for a while- rape, all men are bastards, all women are victims,Palestine/Israel, the internet is bad for kids and getting some more angular thinking in. WDYWTTA is good but they will pick and choose. So I'm thinking, be radical..(well by CIF standards). Right now we have maybe three or four pieces in a row on the same subject..it's like the old verbal reasoning bit you know. Let's say the subject is Smokers do not deserve rights or whatever

    One article totally agrees
    One article partially agrees
    One article disagrees
    One article has nothing to do with the subject except for the headline


    I should elaborate on how to make it better but the drugs aren't working yet. But I am 20% less depressed today I think

  99. To be fair, monkeyfish, she's also paid her dues (sort of).

    You'd be astonished at the amount of slog it takes just to be a waitress or a data entry assistant, both of which are jobs I've done.

    Astonished? Why should we be astonished? Is she assuming that no Guardian reader has ever done a menial low-paid job? That no Guardian reader could ever have experience of such misery? Indeed, it may even astonish Ms Penny that some Guardian readers have indeed done this type of job (and worse), not for a few months or weeks, but for years! And they don't do it to pay for journalism college or to follow their dream. They do it to survive, to pay their bills, perhaps to support families. I thought that the article was extremely poor, but although credit is due to Ms Penny for venturing BTL to defend herself, she did herself no favours in the way she came across. Apparently anyone critical should 'stop making personal attacks and start making a difference.' So now we know. Thanks, Laurie.

  100. Oh they do like young writers but it has to be Ariane Sherine writing about how she fell over a piece of paper in her living room. She's very pretty but very "I".

  101. Oh goody, removed me on the Peaches thread for suggesting it was Eva Wiseman's creative writing piece in prep for her inevitable chick lit novel. But I lasted ten hours.

    I don't care. I made Bakewell Tart today and it is most excellent.

  102. "The status quo is loved by those it advantages. For those on the sticky end it can be hell."

    Of course, Leni. So where's the real anger above the line on Cif?

    I look forward to them commissioning a poster who's really been fucked by the credit crunch and is genuinely angry as a result.

    It'll no doubt be one of Jessica's chosen ones in the WADDYA clique who's taken a hit on their buy-to-let portfolio.

  103. @HankScorpio Well now there's a thought: we get so much secondary stuff, "nine out of ten people want to burn bankers" etc but sure it would be good to feel some intelligent range by someone who got burned. Someone who's about to retire perhaps. No, not Alexander Tuscany Chancellor but a real person.

  104. Ooh. Bakewell Tart...


    (and the comment was bang on, too)

  105. I meant 'rage' not range. Hum.

  106. @PhiippaB Yes I have made custard too. Also made a carrot cake for a friend. Good therapy.

  107. "made a carrot cake for a friend".

    I made a snowman for a friend earlier, but it's melted so I'm all alone again (-;

  108. @HankScorpio..I sometimes don't want to eat my gingerbread men for the same reason. They are cute, cause no problem and put me through no emotional heartbreak. Perfect friends.

  109. The thing is the gentle working class folk who bettered themselves, e.g my dad and my girlfriends ma & pa, have taken a big hit. But they don't rage...

    My partner's old man lost a fortune, on paper, with the CC, but he just gets on with it. My own dad, when I asked him said, "oh the shares have fallen thru the floor, but I never bought them, they were from the selloff of the TSB or BT so I've never thought of them as real money..."

    Would they write about it on cif? They'd rather go dogging I'd reckon!

  110. MsR - have you thought that your problem might lie in objectifying biscuits?

    I am sick and tired of Guardianistas thinking that it's acceptable in some way to create their perfect men and then to eat away at their integrity, their sugar-coated smiles,

    their identities, in short.

    It's divisive and it's emasculating.

    And don't get me started on the tossers who claim to be vegetarian environmentalists but see nothing in eating penguins.


  111. Hank - don't forget that the gingerbrea man will essentially be an emasculated version of manhood to start with (unless you go the whole hog like i do, and add two chocolate chips and some marzipan).

    until the cerne abbas giant is used as the basic template for gingerbread men, the emasculation has already been normalised...

  112. But there is anger Hank - out there on the streets, translated into violence, turned against immigrants, flocking to the BNP. It is not articulated in the right way. Expressed anger is dismissed as the 'politics of envy'. those who lost homes are accused of greedy speculation - ignoring the fact that if people wanted a home they had to pay the demanded price.

    Bright kids from poor homes drop out of school, able only to say 'It's not fair ' - helpless to explain that inborn disadvantage has placed them in schools which seek to 'instrumentalise' them into obedient low wage earners. Old folk with their pensions losing value every day against rising food and fuel costs. There is anger but is subdued, turned into acceptance and a recognition that it was ever thus.

    How much worse it has to get, how wide the income and opportunity gap has to become before we cry enough . The collapse of the left has left gaps for the unscrupulous to fill, lies can be told with impunity/

    We have to take some of the guilt - we are servile. We allow ourselves to fall into the trap of attacking - using abusive language on sites like Cif - we make ourselves dismissable.

    Those who are weak need to be clever. We have forgotten this.

  113. Leni

    Rugby - a mysterious and foolish game.Lots of pushing and shoving , men in heaps doing I don't know what. Very popular hereof course. A win or loss sets the tone for at least aweek. A miserable Welshman is not a good thing to behold.

    How very dare you! Rugby is a brilliant game of many subtleties and strategies. Although I definitely agree that a miserable Welshman is a pain in the arse.


    The easy reading is both - looks (a bit) like Bowie
    - he's vain and conceited

    Errr, no: I hear 'Bowie', I think 'genius'. (Well, up until 1980 or so.)

    Am a big Borges fan too.


    Maybe I could use the trip as the basis for my application to be Peace Envoy to the Middle East. That job's not taken, is it?

    No. No, it isn't.

    Haven't yet read the article everyone's arguing about. Heavy snow forecast overnight so am hoping I just won't be able to manage getting to work tomorrow.

    Oh, and custard is revolting. Cream (preferably double) should be used in all dessert situations.

  114. @HankScorpio Well as Bidisha would no doubt say "Women have been objectified as mere pieces of sugary dough for centuries and it's time they stood up and showed they can be hard biscuits. And if that means objectifying men and moulding them into happy little sugary coated figures and then biting them, so be it.

    @thaumaturge: I like to offer guests both custard and cream. I also like to offer at least two or three desserts. Otherwise the meal is pointless.

  115. MsR - guests around mine take what they're offered. They're lucky if they're offered anything, frankly, as I'm crap at the domestic stuff. There's usually plenty of wine.

    Unless they want to fight the dog for crunchy kibbles.

  116. Thanks Thauma for getting a thread up. Asthma got really bad last night & had to go to the Emergency Room. Too dizzy & disoriented when I got home to try to do anything here.

  117. Hope you are feeling better now, Montana. I am given to understand that smoking in moderate fashion is actually good for asthma. Apocryphal? Dunno, as they'd never admit it now.

  118. Funnily enough, the two blokes who sit near me at work have both been afflicted by asthma recently. I think we need GIYUS to do an exposé on this.

    I've not had problems with asthma, but hell I need to drink a lot of water during the day. Something is not quite right.

  119. Thauma

    Not to be alarmist but extreme thirst can be early indicator of diabetes. Take care.

  120. Leni

    While you're doling out diagnoses, I find myself powerfully drawn to industrial quantities of lager and weed. Is it a medical condition?...some kinda social disease maybe?

  121. Leni

    You're making me a bit paranoid as I have 2 grandparents (one on each side) who were diabetic! However, the colleagues also report dryness, and it doesn't happen outside work, so I hope I've escaped so far....

  122. Hope you are better soon Montana

    Liked the tune Thauma, have driven thru Bakersfield and thought of the song and a girl/s.

    Sorry, meant He is vain to be read as I am vain yeah?

    Borges is good isn't he.

    You all keep arguing over categories and words, reading the threads you clearly do not agree with one another (cif in general) you need a theory of social kinds as it were. (Try not to take offense?)

    I think I agree with Monkeyfish (but not the lager by and large)

  123. MF - your symptoms are clearly leading to 'broken Britain' disease. Seek help at once at your nearest NeoLiberalWillFixIt clinic.

    I'm off for the night just in case the promised snowstorm doesn't occur. Bastard thing will probably just make it a bit nightmarish but not enough to cancel work.


  124. Monkeyfish

    Not really given to diagnosing ailments - just have experience with diabetes.

    I amm willing to hazard a guess for you though - you are suffering from overt extreme self efacement.

  125. hmm. - I'm suffering from extreme bad spelling.


    It may well be that work atmosphere is too dry. Hope so. x

  126. Nice one sheff. Here's a song for those wanting yesterday to stay and tomorrow to hurry up and do it's damage.

  127. Liked that one too.

    Sheff re Knowing it all (and briefly).

    In past less knowledge (fewer people less 'history'), variance in knowledge less.

    As quantity of info / knowledge increases individual total ratio changes (each person knows less % of all poss current info / knowledge. (Same with actual life experience too, when all beasts all was just 'nature')

    So ignorance also increases as a function of total info increase. Also so does variance, info / knowledge becomes less common. (R Wicklund)

    Individual trajectory has an increase in knowledge. This may level out, ossify whatever (all goes in the ind end).

    Lot of people get set in their ways.

    Anyhow I'm off now. Sweet dreams to some, nightmares to others.

  128. Whoa! Glad you're doing bettah Montana.

  129. Hi HH, I feel the future blow like wind upon my face.

    Take care and I might listen to some of your tunes. I only speak so sweetly (or not) because I use others voices.

  130. Narrow your eyes when the future blows a cold wind, pen. Unbutton your shirt some, if it's warm.

  131. @heyhabib..sweetie man I need your help. I need a playlist for my training at the gym and I really can't be minded to think of songs. You will be doing it for a good cause.

  132. Nothing more flattering than an asthmatic girlfriend, Montana. Get well soon x

    "Sweet dreams to some. Nightmares to others."

    That's just childish, pen.

  133. Not me Habib no one is bothered to fund proper science these days.

    Hi MsR, had a Lebanese student once, she brought me those pistachio pastries as I looked starved, she was ok.

    You were right Ally did get his %s slightly off

  134. Not like you calling people names of course whatever Hank

  135. Don't worry I know there would be a bullet with my name on it come your revolution.

    Night all

  136. Ms Robinson, "And Justice For All" by Metallica is the perfect work out soundtrack. Doesn't give you much let up, but that's good.

  137. Habib
    If only I could....run away from old age that is. Those hair do's are something else!

    Glad you're back and hope you're well on the mend. Heres one just for you
    soul food

    MsR - you're outrageous! - Habib's only just got out of hospital and your putting him on the treadmill already.

    Montana - Asthma's a horrible affliction. Take it easy and look after yourself.

  138. What names have I called you, pen?

    Jesus, do you read anything? Does it ever sink in? you're obviously not one of the bad guys, but you're incredibly superciliious.

    It's like you think you're the only guy round here who's ever read a book.

    deano nailed you yesterday. As did PCC.

    But it's me you're whining on about it. Why's that?

    You popped up out of nowhere in the week spouting off about me. I told you that you didn't know what you were talking about because you didn't understand the context.

    Which you don't.

    And if you do, here's your big chance.

    What's your fucking problem with me, pen?

    Cards on the table time.

  139. Evening all who remain,

    heyhabib: glad you're back!

    Montana: what can i say? I hope your son is not affected with the asthma. Please get well immediately.

  140. Habib

    Sorry to hear you have been ill - take care of yourself. We need all the good guys we can muster.

  141. Now I see Montana has been unwell - must be the time of year. Roll on Spring sunshine to put joy back in our lives. Hope everyone else is hale and hearty.

  142. Hank

    I don't think I have been 'nailed' whatever that means.
    I didn't wish you a nightmare did I? You chose to interpret it so. Each of us and that includes me reads meaning from our own perspective and then tends to assume it is the only true meaning. We all do it.

    You split things into groups and set them against each other.

    I know you and others read.

    You are both right and wrong. I know I have ambivalent feelings towards humanity. Don't we all tho' really.

    I don't have much problem with you in most ways. Why would I? You are just another post with some other person behind it and you are also not the Man / system sure.

    I don't like all the lumping people into categories, whatever they are, without any thought for what one is doing.

    You pick on people and carry on vendettas.

    By amd large I don't bother 'discussing' with you as it gets nowhere. Some people are like that.

    I have no bee in my bonnet about you.

    Night night

  143. Hank

    Have you made a decision about Tel Aviv yet?

  144. @pen - so, cutting it short, what names did I call you? And if you haven't got a bee in your bonnet about me, why do you keep on referencing me in your posts? The posts that I can make sense of, that is.

    @sheff - not yet. Grateful for others' input, most of which has reinforced my initial inclination to steer clear.

    If I do go though, I'm thinking of wrapping myself in a burka emblazoned with swastikas and pen's email address.

  145. 'Apparently you can't say anything about Barbara Ellen being boring or you get removed. Does anyone else think the level of moderation on CiF has reached completely dictatorial?'

    Yeah, unless you're slagging off those dreadful fat bastard lardarses who dare to use public transport,in which case you can say wtf you like.

    Habib, hope you're feeling better. Sorry about the lack of alcohol.

  146. Shaz

    To go ABL you have either to be brave and thickskinned or employ good minders. Some are saved while others are thrown to the wolves.

  147. Medve, Leni and shaz, Thank you. Honestly, though, guys forget about me, post some songs, or say something silly.

  148. "To go ABL you have to be brave and thickskinned or employ good minders."

    Don't forget the need for an Oxbridge education and the right connections, Leni.

    Not to mention talking post-structural relativist shite in which class issues have been overcome thanks to bourgeois wankers who got a gig at Wolverhampton Poly back in 1972 because they shared a spliff with the head of liberal humanities at a Mott the Hoople concert.

  149. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQGtzWA_tLI

    Ari Hest - hope you like it Habib.

  150. Apparently evangelical vegetarians are a protected class on Cif, too. My beautiful rant yesterday was deleted, despite containing absolutely no remarks directed at any particular person.

    And the asthma: No. Son doesn't have it. I have had it for @ 20 years now. Sometimes I go months without a problem, sometimes I have these flare-ups. I have both an "episodic" inhaler and a "maintenance" inhaler, but sometimes that just isn't enough.

    Hank -- your comment brought back a rather unpleasant memory. Thanks.

  151. Leaves me out then - I have all the wrong connections and have never heard of a hoople before.

  152. I think the rule of thumb is that Graun staff are protected. Plebs like those of us from here who've done stints ATL pretty much get thrown to the wolves. Judging from some of the comments that were allowed to remain on the 2 I've done, I shudder to think what the handful of deleted ones said.

  153. Leni, I always like that song, no matter how many times I hear it, or who plays it. I hope you like this one.

  154. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-9F_z0B2TA

    My first - and certainly last - Hoople listening. Only the brave or tone deaf approach - and then with caution.

  155. Now then, now then, How, Is It, all About This then?

  156. Habib: you said we should say something silly:

    Montana Apparently evangelical vegetarians are a protected class on Cif, too.

    For information:

    Vegetarian is an ancient indigenous American name meaning Rotten Hunter

  157. Habib - The good man Leonard - a true human being.

    Xuss - That was painful.

    Trying to find something - someone is hexing me - will be back.

  158. Montana: on a more serious note.. The air quality here in Budapest is not a quality, but an abomination. Every year more children are afflicted with asthma. Luckily ours are all right. Many, many, moons ago i had a girlfriend who nearly died in an asthma attack, so just figure my sympathy.

  159. Jackie Ashley's talking shit again btw.

  160. Sorry Leni,made me smile tho..

    How's this for ya?

    nn all...

  161. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMbnj_Ei2A&feature=channel

    This is said to be the oldest written music ever. Difficult to dance to - luckily the idea caught on and evolved.

    Klezfiddle does some good stuff on the fiddle. He has now gone commercial and sells his stuff on line. Funny guy.

  162. Very similar to other early music like this tho Leni..

    Right I am off to bed!

    Sweet dreams

  163. Night Xuss - sweet dreams of music.

  164. Leni

    Some of us find pretty much any music difficult to dance to. Comes of having two left feet and being right footed.

  165. Poor excuse, TD, all tigers have two left feet.

    Off to raise hell on Waddya, for all the good that it will do.

  166. Anyone still around on here? With cut and paste powers?

  167. Hank had a look at Waddya my cut & waste is working ..

  168. medve - if you could cut and paste the waddya comment at 1.50am I'd be grateful. If you could then post it, every time a new waddya thread went up, I'd be more than grateful.

  169. Hank: thought that was you. now already 4 recs. (slept a couple of hours):

    comment saved. so i should stick it up on Friday?

    There really isn't much point having a forum called "Comment is Free" if comment isn't really free.


    Is comment free or not?

  170. The whole thing, still up 7 hours later:

    There really isn't much point having a forum called "Comment is Free" if comment isn't really free.

    How free can comment ever be if posters disagreeing with Jackie Ashley's take on New Labour get deleted not because the posts infringe the "talk policy" in any way but simply because they expose the hypocrisy of the New Labour "project"?

    I posted an informed and accurate post about the use of consultants in the public sector on Ashley's thread. My post explained in detail how public money was wasted, how private sector consultants benefitted and how those consultants avoided tax by setting up offshore.

    It also mentioned how the Guardian uses similar policies to avoid tax.

    Nothing in my post was untrue.

    Why should my post get deleted, simply because it exposes the hypocrisy of our government or this particular newspaper?

    Is comment free or not?