27 February 2011


If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars.
-Rabindranath Tagore


  1. Yesterday's events concerning GUT, Dribbly, CiF, GMG, TheGraun.com and here seem to show how pointless it is imagining that people, even in small numbers, will get on together.

    It seems that the instinct of ownership and possession, the desire to belong and the need to filter who is in your tribe and who is an outsider are just too strong for us to resist.

    No wonder politicians find people so easy to manipulate and control and exploit.

    It seems we do all the hard work for them.

  2. englishhermit 27 February 2011 9:02AM

    "I note a flurry of activity from the UT marketing department this weekend. Nothing like a good disaster to bring 'em in force. Don't worry, sad victims. they feel your pain and offer succour for all in their refuge across the sea in a magic land where everyone is free to say whatever they like.

    I always thought that the Lib Dems were the leaders when it comes the shameless opportunism."

    Hehe. I skipped 5 or 6 pages of overnight 'discussion', or perhaps it was wrangling? I did wonder where EnglishPelmet was the clear/muddywater character, but WTH ?

    Sun is shining here, IRL !

  3. Morning all!


    Seems like that but don't you think that growing up in our society makes us like that.

    I don't believe human nature is fixed and we are certainly moulded by the doinant culture. The current oneencurages us to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, that the waealthy deserv their wealth because the work hard, the obviously corollary is that the poor deserve to be poor because they don't work hard enough.

    As Marx says - If the working class have their own philosophy they have the philosophy of the ruling class

    In other words it is those who rule us (which are actually the captains of corporations) who work hard to get us that way.

    Its up to socialists to change people's consciousness. Sometimes it does seem a hopeless task though. :)

  4. Meerkatjie - best wishes for your mum. Christ, stuck in the US without insurance is a bad place to be.

  5. I could add that in the next few months as cuts begin to bite(and it will include a lot of those who claim to deserve their comfortable salaries because they are hard working etc) life may well do the job for us:

    As someone else said (Lenin?) An ounce of experience is worth a ton of theory.

    Egypt should teach us that people can stand up against oppression. Libya teaches us that it is sometimes a bitter struggle and that many (most?) rulers will not give in without a fight. suspect though that even in Egypt the battle is not yet over.

  6. Morning Thauma!
    Just looked back at yesterday's posts, \so sorry about your mum Meerkatje.

    Hope things will be OK

  7. Dave

    The sun is shining here too!

    A choon.

  8. Morning all

    No sun here - just cheerless grey.

    smtx - I find reading other people's perspectives interesting. Here's another one that will probably annoy you too.

    Popular army to march on Tripoli

  9. Thauma

    I seem to have been spam binned again - could you drag me out - thanks.

  10. annetan

    Seems like that but don't you think that growing up in our society makes us like that.

    Yes, but to a degree the nature of CiF and this place has always been people criticising - mainly constructively - the way the world works and how things could be done better.

    People can remain silent. People should be able to let what they probably regard as justified anger on the part of other people play itself out and work towards creating something as a result.

    There have been a few comparisons on Dribbly between people from Springfield being invaded by people from Shelbyville.

    There was another episode of the Simpsons in which Lisa discovers something to do with how animals perceive and interact with people.

    She goes to a meeting of scientists to deliver a paper she has written about it. The scientists are all seated in their white lab-coats.

    "But she's just a little girl!" says one. "What does she know?"

    "She's a witch!" shouts another. "Burn her!"

    The differences between people, the disagreements, the various standpoints are just as important to how the world works as the harmony.

    The problem is, if we cannot seem to do anything other than fight when confronted with people we don't know, what business do we have telling other people how to behave?

    As I have said before, politicians must love watching internet blogs and forums unravel, if they ever bother to look.

    They know they can set one against the other and rob everyone blind whilst nobody is looking.

    Perhaps they are the ones who "get it" and we are the forever deluded ones.

    The Guardian acted as expected. They treated their users with contempt.

    The users were then at loggerheads and at each others' throats.

    Big Society in action.

    Looks live Dave and the Gang are onto a winner.

  11. Meerkatjie

    Sorry to hear about you mother. I hope things work out well and speedily.

    As Dave dismantles the Welfare State and hands the NHS over to his mates all this, of course, will soon be ours to enjoy.

    We are all Americans now.

  12. Thanks Atom and Thaum. I've been worrying something like this would happen for some time, as the elderlies flit over to see my sister and do her child wrangling quite often. She's got too many preexisting conditions, and they're too old, to get travel insurance. That that that might indicate they *shouldn't travel* seems to have escaped them. It's horrible to be worrying so much about someone's health, and also having to worry about money too. Scary stuff, it is. Apparently they were pursuing my dad round the hospital with clipboards yesterday, trying to induce him to sign his life away. Very hippocratic, I'm sure.

    Distracting myself again....

    Atom, you said:
    "It seems that the instinct of ownership and possession, the desire to belong and the need to filter who is in your tribe and who is an outsider are just too strong for us to resist."

    Like anne, while I share your observation, I'm not sure I can agree with the sense that this is instinctive. Our culture is very boundary focused (nation, town, race, class) and very acquisitive. I suspect this constructs us as boundary-seeking-beings: we form laagers because that's kind of what society positions us to do. Our sense of belonging, our need for affiliation could, I think, be rather more productively channelled in a society that was more focused on fellow humanity, than on mine mine mine.

  13. Atom -
    what business do we have telling other people how to behave?

    Its not quite like that though is it? Its more about giving an alternative explanation for the situation we face, arguing against the 'there is nothing we can do about' and 'thats the way it is'.

    Arguing won't do it for many, ultimately people will have to face up to the consequences of the cuts and when they face the injustice of the situation they are faced with they will get angry.

    Will they get angry enough? I hope so, meanwhile we have to educate agitate organise.

    IRL if we can sadly get too tired to do much of that these days.

  14. Meerkatjie

    I am quite happy to replace "instinct" with something like "entrenched attitude". As I have said before, I do not give a lot of thought to anything I write here or elsewhere.

    The idea of ownership, though, and acquisition are often trumpeted as things to which to aspire. Own your own council house and maybe you will stop storing your coal in the bath and paint your fence occasionally.

    What about when one person feels entitled to own someone else, though?

    This does not have to be in the sense of a rich man owning a barn or ship full of slaves.

    What about the rat-faced hoodie who tells his girlfriend what she can and cannot do or think or say because he feels that by providing her with a squat and a dog and drugs, she is now just one of his many and glorious possessions?

    What about the ownership of the content, on the back of which The Guardian makes money?

    Is it just theirs to dispose of on a whim or are they the protectors and curators of something which others have given on the tacit understanding that it would not just be chucked on the skip?

    What about the virtual space which is Dribbly?

    Owned by The Guardian no doubt, but overlooked and patrolled by those who think it is their exclusive neighbourhood or plot or allotment or opera-house or squat.

    Obviously, once something is yours, in thought and deed, you may feel entitled to protect it any cost against filthy furriners.

    A bit like colonisation.

  15. OOPS!

    If the working class DO NOT have their own philosophy they have the philosophy of the the ruling class.

    At least it proves I didn't copy/paste it! ;)

  16. Atom, I think you're right. And I think we all feel the pull of the logic of colonisation. We all have (to varying degrees) a tendency to grasp hard at *stuff* (houses, people-as-objects, internet sites), as a substitute for proper belonging, perhaps?

  17. anne

    I think there are two strands or levels on which we are talking now, generally, but your point is perfectly valid.

    I have to go out and come back now, but part of what I am saying is that believing or imagining or hoping or convincing ourselves that we are right will not of itself mean that anyone else will come over into our camp.

    They believe just as vehemently that they are right and will seek to protect their position.

    The difference being, they have the power and significantly control the propaganda.

  18. OK gotta go out for a bit.

    Play nicely...

    ...or bury the evidence...

  19. Morning Anne!

    Sheff - unspambinned.

    ...or bury the evidence...


    Expecting to see BB later on today for a wee while....

  20. Spoke too soon ... she can't make it. :-(

  21. BBC Radio4 relevant for that discussion....?

  22. Searchlight Ed. Trust have just produced a report that will be fairly gloomy reading and looks like it will reiterate much of what everyones been talking about on here for ages.

    Executive summary here

    Fear and Hope

    On one level it is not happy reading. It concludes that there is not a progressive majority in society and it reveals that there is a deep resentment to immigration, as well as scepticism towards multiculturalism. There is a widespread fear of the ‘Other’, particularly Muslims, and there is an appetite for a new right-wing political party that has none of the fascist trappings of the British National Party or the violence of the English Defence League. With a clear correlation between economic pessimism and negative views to immigration, the situation is likely to get worse over the next few years.

    Full report being published tomorrow evening.

  23. Sheff, I did a paper in Manchester on the EDL this week. I was interested that I felt I had to *justify* this interest, that my audience seemed to wonder why I wanted to talk about the ultraright, as if this 'minority view' was nothing to be concerned about.

    What concerns me about them is just how 'mainstream' they are. They parrot dominant discourses about, for instance, the failure of multiculturalism, to support a clear but (officially) unspoken racism.

    They worry me a great deal.

  24. @Sheff
    I read that too, but it comes as no great shock. Despite the BNP getting their butts kicked in May, in some purported strongholds, those sentiments seem to run through many conversations. Now that the Lib Dems have come to an all time low in public approval, they most likely won't be used as a stick to beat the two main parties. And we already know that public sector cuts are going to hit white working class savagely. Interesting then, in other news, the the ESRC decideds to launch a £49m research programme into what makes "Brits happy". I do wonder about academe sometimes, I really do. Their puff piece in the Obsever reads like the 2011 top-ten nominations for the No Shit Sherlock Awards.

    Try listening to the South African national anthem. usually stirs me up, but in a good way.

  25. Meerkatje

    I think the Searchlight report will make interesting, if depressing reading. The exec summary suggests that "there is widespread fear of the other" thats fueling a shift even further to the right. It looks like its no longer a 'minority view'. Very worrying times.

  26. Hi Bitters....long time no speak. We need another meet up, if only to cheer ourselves up. Watcha think? Your place or ours?

  27. Morning all,

    Well, after it emerged that the Libruls are stoney broke, according to The Metro, Clegg also admitted that he forgot he was running the country last week, while The Cameronator was off in t'Egypt on his spreading democracy-cum-selling guns and other fings wot go bang adventures!!

    Having being reminded, however, Clegg responded by saying something like, 'yeah, but I'm still hoping to clock off early and spend some time with the kids, so someone else'll prolly have to do it then anyway, like, so, you know, no biggie!!'.

    So there you have it, all you benefit scrounging, culture of worklessness, responsible for the destruction of our economy types, if you really want to get away with your workshy shananigans, you should be aiming a bit higher.

    I mean, why go to all the effort of pulling a sickie from your minimum wage, zero-hour, soul destroying job, when you could be pulling the same shit with tax-payers money, when you're in charge of the whole country, and can brag about it in the national press!!

    Think bigger people, think bigger!!

  28. Bitterweed

    I don't know anything about Die Antwoord - although I did a quick check to see if they are some kind of white supremacist outfit.

    I like the song.

    They just seem to be some punk-rap fusion outfit with connections to something which sounds like chav bling.

  29. Die Antwoord aren't white supremicists. They are sexist prats.... (Jy lyk so mooi met my piel in jou keel)

    I think you probably need a good grasp on the Afrikaans vernacular and particularly on Afrikaans (and South African 'coloured') profanity to really get them.

  30. Nooooooooooooooooo,

    Fucking Hell Atoms!!!

    (My neighbour thoughtfully had a party until 8am last night/this morning, and that song was repeated half-hourly from 2-8. I manage a couple of hours sleep, stumble blearly eyed onto the UT, and innocently click on your link.....


  31. Sheff

    We need another meet up, if only to cheer ourselves up.


    Off to watch the rugby.

    Something that made me go "ouch" in the Observer today:

    Ireland have yet to find a coherent attacking rhythm, one that scares the opposition more than their supporters.

  32. Meerkatjie

    Yes, I'm not surprised, although I hadn't looked at the lyrics and just picked up the bits in English which made them sound more like deluded Ninja rappers who had made it on the internet against the odds.

    Isn't some of it meant to be, er, tongue in cheek, though, with intentional adoption of the misogyny of some rapping and adopting of a persona?

  33. Bitterweed: " Despite the BNP getting their butts kicked in May, in some purported strongholds, those sentiments seem to run through many conversations."

    While they didn't win constituencies, their overall vote share went up. They're the fastest growing UK political party in that sense; in 10 years, their vote share went from 3000 to 300000. (I think these are the correct figures, off the top of my head - it's in that order of growth, anyway).

    I remember when they won Oldham, the Beeb did a vox pop in the streets of Oldham. They spoke to an Asian man, maybe in his late 50s. he said that while the electoral victory was upsetting, what really concerned him was that, as he walked down the street, he looked at every face, and wonderd if *they* voted BNP. That's the impact that really worries me.

  34. Sorry, James.

    Which one knocked you into overload?

    I'll see if I can find an antidote.

  35. Hi all, interesting discussion from all over the past few days.

    Just found this nice little example of how we are Royally screwed by private companies. Even when you do something right it is still wrong.

    From VC's weekly in the usual place......

    But then I heard the amazing story of Tom Wrigglesworth, the stand-up comedian. He was on a Virgin train from Manchester to London and saw a 75-year-old woman discover that she had accidentally boarded a train 30 minutes earlier than the one for which she'd bought a ticket. The train attendant insisted that the old lady must pay £115 (10 times her original fare) since she was on the wrong train. Not having the money, stuck on a train she couldn't afford, the old lady burst into tears.

    The gallant Wrigglesworth stood up and began a whip-round in the carriage. It didn't take long; everyone was disgusted by the policy and sympathetic to the elderly passenger. Wrigglesworth handed over his gathered £115 to safeguard the bullied old lady… at which point the train staff radioed British Transport Police and asked that he be arrested for begging. They were waiting for him at Euston.

  36. Sheff - yes ! And I don't mind where !!!

    AB - check out SA band called "Fuck Offf Police Car"... ;-)

    Meerkatjie - will get back later, got stuff to do...

  37. Oh, sorry, you said. Onto it...

  38. Well, I s'pose you weren't to know, Atoms!!

    (although, in my sleep deprived, paranoid state, my mind did entertain the idea that there might be some kind of co-ordinated, psy-ops campaign against me. But, obviously, that's just crazy talk!! isn't it.......??)

  39. IanG

    Read Jennifer Government for an idea of how life will soon be for us all.

    The tattoo on the face of the logo of the corporation to which you belong was optional...

  40. at which point the train staff radioed British Transport Police and asked that he be arrested for begging. They were waiting for him at Euston.

    Bloody hell Ian....how much more of a pitiful little jobsworth could you possibly get?

  41. BW, do you know Die Gereformeerde Blues Band? Or any of the other people who were involved with Voelvry? Their stuff was interesting, punky stuff. I used to love them. I think that people like Die Antwoord draw a lot on that tradition. I'm always caught by these bands - I recognise what they're doing, I think they're interesting, but I can't quite bring myself to like them...

  42. Not quite so scary, James.

    It seems we are both under the same attack, at least.

    Atomgirl says she has dozens of versions of that song.

    I can believe it, as she looped through them at full volume when doing some cooking a few weeks ago.

    I kept saying I liked the song as a kind of bravado and in the hope that the sentence would be reduced for good behaviour.

    Now, in small doses, I enjoy it.

  43. Afternoon all

    @ see EnglishTermite is now accusing us of trying to convert the GUTers into UTers.What a sad man he is!

    @Regarding the Searchlight report i agree it will make for grim reading.Which is why i keep banging on about the need for those of us who profess to be on the Left to have an open and honest debate about issues surrounding immigration.Without chucking around accusations of racism like confetti.

    There is now a political vacuum in many working class communities which extremists of all hues are taking advantage of.And there are some real festering tensions along cultural and ethnic lines which could explode at any time.And this time around it's not a solely Black versus White issue.

  44. James

    Here's something from Rick's Cafe Americain...

    ...with the most beautiful woman in the world - ever.

  45. Thing is, though, Paul, if you don't talk about racism, you're hoisted in a different way. All these organisations are going on about how 'non-racist' they are. They're bloody not. They have to be named?

  46. Paul

    Yes, with Peter Mandelson saying that Miliband's move away from New Labour will scupper any election chances and that the debate needs to be taken onto the common ground occupied by Cameron and Blair, it is hard to see how any mention of the left is going to be heard.

    Would you like to elect a Neo Nasty party or one a bit further to the right than that?

  47. Atoms,

    It's everywhere here at the moment, and impossibly catchy!! It is however, somewhat less charming when being *shouted* by 50 or so fuckwits who are smashed out of their tiny minds, every half hour!!

    The Casablanca tune, however, is timeless....

    (Although, at the risk of being controversial, I'd say Rita Hayworth deserves the most beautiful woman in the world crown more than Ingrid Bergman....!?!?)

  48. Hi @Sheff, there is a comment further down that VC thread where someone who had bought a return ticket casually mentioned to the ticket inspector that he would be getting a lift back so the return half would not actually be used. He was refused entry to the platform and told to buy a single ticket that - naturally - cost more than the return.

    @Meek, hope it works out OK vis the States and medical costs stuff.

    @Paul, you are correct in that conclusion about the poor/working class being marginalised. Just wait when the cuts kick in and many people who are currently treading water will be desperate. They will have nothing (literally) to lose by taking extreme measures (robbery, rioting, redacting ..anything beginning with 'r').

  49. James

    Ha! That is brilliant!

    Sadly, I think my limbs would be tangled like a skein of wool which had been the plaything of a litter of kittens if I tried that.

    Which is why Atomgirl must never see it.

    She would delight in making me try...

  50. IanG


    Well, I suppose...

    ...nah, you're all right, mate.

  51. Don't know if we have seen this before (been away in sunny Brighton) or exhausted the Libya crisis discussion but Craig Murray has another insight that looks plausible. Perhaps Gandolfo can comment?

    A very senior diplomatic source told me yesterday that Berlusconi is frantic lest Gadaffi falls and the channels are revealed by which Berlusconi gets a cut on the huge amounts of Libyan oil and gas lifted to Italy. Just at the moment that would be too much even for Berlusconi to survive.

    This morning I see the Italian foreign minister is warning 300.000 Libyan refugees will fly to Europe if Gadaffi falls - as though there will be none if he stays. I have checked with other diplomatic sources, and they confirm that Italy is using the refugee warning to argue that Europe should back Gadaffi, and not impose sanctions. That point is not coming over in the mainstream media.

  52. Would you like to elect a Neo Nasty party or one a bit further to the right than that

    Sorry i,m not quite sure how to take that comment Atomboy.How does that relate to my point that many working class communites have a political void which the extremists are only to happy to fill?What i was sayong was that the concerns that many working class people of all ethnic backgrounds have over immigration and the issues surrounding it need to be debated openly and honestly.And that those on the Left who instinctively make accusations of racism in response to any of these concerns are not helping matters.


    Absolutely agree with you. I despise the EDL and BNP and to suggest they're anything other than racist scum is naive.But to understand why either Black,White or Asian British working class people are opting for extremism of any sort you have to address what they perceive to be their realities.


    I agree with you.I think when the cuts start to bite things could start really kicking off in some working class communities.

  53. Atoms

    Yes, it does very much look like one of those 'how cool would that be if we could do it....c'mon it'd be fun, and we could bond....You would if you loved me!!' type things, doesn't it!?

    And in my, admittedly limited, experience, they usually end in some form of 'Well, you're either stupid, or you're not trying hard enough. Or both. I mean, I ask you to do one thing for me and you can't even do that properly...'!!

    (YouTube: wrecking relationships since 2005!!)

  54. Ian

    UN refugee agency is reporting 100,000 have crossed into either Egypt or Tunisia.

    The mass movement of people will strain the resources - and the goodwill - of several Med. nations. How long before genuine stability returns to Tunisia or Libya is unknown - the eventual downfall of Gad will see his supporters - including all mercenaries - fleeing Libyan shores.
    The latter may well expect Italy to welcome them.

    Italy already has Tunisians on their shores.

    Berlusconi has deep involvement with Libya as we know. Too many revelations could finish him. .

  55. @sheff, havent read the full searchlight report as yet, only just got the email. I dont know if anyone has ever tried getting an article commissioned on 'Post suggestions for subjects you'd like us to cover'(what do you want to talk about). I have, and trying to suggest an article about the 'most serious,dangerous,political phenomenom that we have had in Britain for a number of years,' The EDL suggestion doesnt even warrent a token 'might consider it..if you can find a 'new angle' response.
    @bitterweed 'And we already know that the public sector cuts are going to hit the white working class savegely'.

    As well as hitting the Black British working class savegley.

  56. Anyways, that's me off for the afternoon.

    Have a nice day, UTers....!!

  57. Paul

    There is no doubt that the gvt. has led the blame game here - mixed communities may well take their cue from this.

    When people feel sidelined and are unable to reach those responsible they sometimes turn on the nearest target.

    The rise of the right is very worrying - they will move in as cheerleaders.

    were an 'acceptable' right wing party to be established - or an existing one shift further to the right - they could command a huge following.

    Nick G nastiness and lack of personal appeal along with the thuglike behaviour of the EDL have so far left many 'respectable' people unwilling to openly support them.

    Right wing party seen as establishment would I believe attract many followers. They would be willing to use EDL while officially disowning them.

  58. Paul

    Sorry, that was written in haste as I keep being kidnapped for other things.

    The point I was trying to make - badly - was that the political void you mention will get bigger and the facilities to open up that debate will diminish in terms of anything other than increasing extremism.

    David Cameron chose to align his party with groups from the European hard-right and it was thought at the time that this must have been through simple clumsiness and being naive.

    However, expect politics to swing further to the right as the economic meltdown continues and everyone looks for someone to blame, within the framework calculated and choreographed by Cameron and his commercial masters.

    This is quite predictable, of course, but, as you have said, when the political and media "narrative" is contrived in such a way as to prevent it, how will the voice of reason be heard?

    It still seems like we are being softened up for a scenario which harries and herds people into the thoughtlessness which promotes extremism.

    The missing piece at the moment would seem to be the excuse for going to war, but maybe the Middle East will provide that in due course.

  59. Divide and rule can be a rather lethal weapon. As for immigration, it's never bothered me personally - I rather enjoy diversity.

    However, it would help if these issues could be properly aired and discussed, without the label of racism attached to it; and even better if it could be done intelligently. But how, when those are just the sort of communities fed so much rubbish by the tabloids - controlled by those most likely to be behind the cause of the problems?

    I can see the wider theories about it, but if they don't get over here, even more often do the corporations go to them. Yes, there are a whole pile of Asians undercutting our job market, and they mostly live in Asia... But meanwhile ignorance is fed daily to the ignorant, and those making loud remarks about 'bloody foreigners' tend also to be those making loud remarks about 'benefit scum', and suchlike.

    I do regularly hear the 'coming over here and getting jobs and houses in front of our hard-working locals' stuff, which I'm sure isn't that easy these days; and nor are many of our locals exactly good examples of citizenship. Our council actually looked into it and found it was maybe 1% of social housing stock - a typical example of prejudice before rationality. However, this isn't some inner city.

    The real issues, as ever, revolve around one smallish part of our society thinking it's okay to duff-up anyone else who stands in the way of their making more profits, and that's not really anything to do with origins.


    “That’s what's really wrong with our society and our politics - judging people's worth by what they are worth, instead of by what they are.”

    … And it cuts both ways.

    Here you remind me that it does indeed work both ways, whilst I was musing rather self centredly from my own social viewpoint.

    There are aspects upon which nobody should be judged, because we have no choice about it; most especially - our place, family and sociological background of birth - our race and gender – our personal genetic programme of abilites and disabilities, and any disabilities.

    Nobody should be any more condemned for being born into a palace or a banking family, than into a council house or a third-world village - whatever. That’s nobody’s fault.

    It’s what we do thereafter; and, within that framework, someone born with more of anything, has more of a responsibility to use that for the greater good – like throwing a stone into the water and watch it spread out and out, not knowing where it will reach.

    Who doesn’t know or know of someone worse off than themselves who needs that bit extra of assistance? How can you then be or stay wealthy?

    (Although, carried to its natural conclusion, there must be some poor sod somewhere who doesn’t know anyone worse off than them – but, you know what I mean.)

    Therefore, it is right and proper to condemn millionaire politicians and their cronies; not because of their inherent social position, but because of the way they are so greatly misusing their accident-of-birth advantages, because about that they really do have choices.

  60. smtx

    The cuts will hit all sectors - unfortunately there are those in the white wc who feel a sense of entitlement. They will easily be stirred by the likes of the EDL. There are also tensions between other immigrant communities.

    What is not often stressed in these discussions is that many members of so called immigrant communities are in fact born and bred Brits.

  61. @james before you go, the other day you wrote(re my outbursts about Libya) 'Where was your concern for my Egyptians friends,or bitters, or sheffs ex? can I assume because it wasn't forthcoming, your some kind of cunt- or would that be grossly unfair'.

    Seeing as I wasnt posting on UT at the time of the Egyptian uprisings and was banned from Cif, im not entirely sure how you would have liked me to get the message across. I did have a flick through the 'archive' of comments at the time of the Egyptian protests, and to be honest I could'nt find any comments of yours, are your friends Egyptians or british workers? also I thought sheffs ex was british,not Egyptian?. anyway at least ive been called cunt 3 times since i started posted here around ten days ago.

  62. I don’t usually comment on foreign affairs as such, as I have enough trouble putting together a coherent argument about subjects into which personal experiences have given me some real insight. Not because of, as others have pointed out, a lack of interest or concern; but rather not wishing to appear as a right plonker.

    While I wouldn’t waste my time writing to our present MP about a hole in the road, let alone foreign affairs. This being an air-lifted-in true-blue representative of… the interests of whoever put together the parachute; and who may well have some interest in Atos and the unemployed – in this area of high benefit dependence – but definitely not from the viewpoint of those affected.

    It has become all too obvious that our government don’t give a toss about their own citizens’ problems, let alone those of other places. They do however care about what the Puppet Masters care about, and so will definitely be concerned about the boiling-over local politics of, say, an oil-producing country; so some sort of reaction is certain.

    They’ll feed The Beast for years, and then as soon as that beast doesn’t accommodate their interests sufficiently any more, slay it without a regretful backward glance. Who was it who initially financed Saddam? – the Taliban? - have kept many areas intentionally destabilised?

    They simply do not care about anything other than that which serves the real world leaders of the corporations, and imagining otherwise is a waste of inspiration. (There are always individual exceptions, but sadly never enough of them.)

  63. moonwave

    I too am quite happy with immigration and a blending of cultures. It's quite normal in fact.

    I am not happy that for at least 2 decades housing and services have not kept pace with the increasing populatios. Now that we face even more cuts the inequalities will intensify.

    Those town with large immigrant groups already face problems. Increasing levels of poverty will arouse deep seated anger. Conflagrations are a probability rather than possibility.

  64. @leni 'The cuts will hit all sectors-unfortunately there are those in the WWC(White working class) who feel a sense of entitlement,they will be easily stirred by the like of the EDL,there are also tensions between other immigrant communities'.
    Well, yes, but there are also simliar tensions btwn the Black working class and other immigrant communities, I think the whole thing is quite complex and complicated, my mate, Black,British,working class and 39 and a single mum, after finising a late degree(now kids are a bit older) and looking for p/t work, doesnt stand a chance in hell of getting a job in a cafe/restaraunt/bar, because 85% of the workers are polish/spanish/slovakian and 22, speak about 4 languages and already have multiple degrees, i think the whole thing is complicated, workers on building sites getting undercut by polish workers(who are often pretty racist themselves)obviously not all , but many of them are towards black and british asian workers.

  65. smtx

    Paul has often talked of tensions between black and Asian communities.

    We are looking at a battle for resources. The vast majority are likely to become more 'tribal' as the resources shrink even further.

    There are racists in all communities. The picture - and solution - is further complicated by legislation which has created an open door for citizens of EU.

    There are no easy answers. I fear we will be subjected to even more badly thought through and knee jerk reaction type of legislation.

    We may yet see a return of many Brits currently working in EU and elsewhere as economies shrink and they start to be laid off or their small businesses collapse.

    Racism is , among other things, a self defeating response to any problem - the world is now so interconnected. Any one of us can fall victim to racism and racist policies.

  66. Anyone know if this is really true?

    "Westminster city council, the richest and most powerful council in the UK, is proposing a new bye-law to ban rough sleeping and “soup runs” in the Victoria area of London. The proposed new bye-law will make it an offence punishable by a fine to “sleep or lie down”, “deposit materials used as bedding” and to “give out, or permit another to give out, food for free”"


  67. Meerkat

    Can neither verify or dismiss but it wouldn't surprise me.

    Out of sight out of mind - well heeled consciences need protecting from the realities.

    The poor are so unsightly.

    Perhaps we are misjudging them - perhaps the LA is going to provise comfortable houses for the homeless in their area.

    Didn't Mayor Giuliani clean up NY by banishing all rough sleepers to the periphery ?

  68. Meerkat - wouldn't surprise me. Isn't it Westminster CC that doesn't recognise the blue badge scheme?

  69. @atom & james

    Although Casablanca is my number two film ever, I've never been able to look at Ingrid Bergman in the same way since she made a TV bioproduction in which she portrayed the foul Golda Meir as a saintly figure.

    So I'd have to go along with Rita Hayworth, especially given her marriage to the sublime Orson Welles, director and writer of my number one film ever, Citizen Kane, which ties it all up rather neatly.

  70. smtx

    You seem to have somewhat missed my point, which was that it would be grossly unfair to suggest you were a cunt for not commenting on the Egypt thing, precisely because there could be numerous reasons as to why you didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.
    (Just as there could be numerous reasons as to why not everyone here has commented on Libya, or at least not with the frequency/intentions you desired!)

    And like I already said, I didn't say too much at the time, largely because I didn't want to tempt fate, or count chickens etc. Elsewhere I was more involved and vocal, (although that was largely in private correspondence!!)

    (And, yes, my Egyptian friends are Egyptian, funnily enough, not that it particularly makes a difference anyway.....)

  71. @Ian

    If I'd been the bloke with the return ticket, I'd have taken out my mobile, dialled a number, said, "Yes... OK...", then told the railway jobsworth that my lift had been cancelled so I'd be taking the return train after all.

  72. Meerkatjie

    Have not followed the link, but why wouldn't it be?

    As I have been saying for several years, we are all American now.

    Follow this link to Channel 4's Unreported World. I think you should be able to watch the video about America's middle-class poor and homeless living in tent-cities underneath the freeways - or in their cars, if lucky.

    Here's an intro:

    Unreported World meets the USA's new middle-class homeless: families struggling to hold down jobs that pay so little they're forced to live in tent cities or their cars and receive little help from the government.

    Reporter Ramita Navai and producer Clancy Chassay begin their journey in Chicago, one of the country's manufacturing centres, which has been hit hard by the effects of the worst financial crisis in decades. St Columbanus church is one of 600 charities across the city that gives out emergency food rations.

    Across America, many working people from all sectors have taken as much as 40% in pay cuts in desperation to hold on to their jobs. Their motivation is clear: if you are a temporary, part-time or self-employed worker you don't qualify for government help. The result is that many can't make ends meet and afford to feed themselves and their families. [...]

    Navai and Chassay move on to California, where more and more people are ending up on the streets. California has the highest debt in the USA and many essential services have been cut, including emergency housing assistance. 'Skid Row', which is one square mile of Los Angeles, has as many as 2,000 people sleeping rough every night. It has a reputation for drugs and crime and Navai talks to homeless people who are forced to walk all day to avoid being picked up by the police for loitering.

    Members of the last Neo Nasty government were inconvenienced by having to step over the homeless on their way to and from the opera.

    You wouldn't want them to have to go through that again, would you?

  73. Leni

    I am not happy that for at least 2 decades housing and services have not kept pace with the increasing populations...

    Increasing levels of poverty will arouse deep seated anger. Conflagrations are a probability rather than possibility.

    That's the real problem - a prolonged laziness of investment in the infrastructure needed for a larger population, followed by this decrease of opportunities.

    Immigrant populations always are at the head of the queue for being given the blame for whatever is going wrong in society - then they gradually integrate, and it's the next lot who get the blame - there's nothing new in that. Unfortunately, it obscures the real culprits.

    So again, it's divide and rule - keep all of the victims of a never-necessary cut-everything policy infighting, instead of getting together and turning on those who are the real cause of their misery.


    Is it just me or am I the only person wondering WTF is wrong with our journalists these days?

    Anyone with half a brain and a broadband connection can "google" anything and be bombarded with more information than they could possibly process in a lifetime…

    Why aren't they telling the story of how we have all been took to the cleaners by a bunch of money grubbing,selfish,lying con artists who have committed the most breathtakingly audacious heist in human history?

    That's what we have - a press predominantly formulated around who is pulling the financial purse strings; while you can be sure that any over-enthusiastic newbie journalist who had some daft idealistic notions about their profession would soon be put straight on that one.

    I’ve seen much better ‘investigative journalism’ created within minutes BTL than appears in print – it’s all there – there’s not even the slightest excuse for ignorance. Every day there should be headlines screaming about the abuse of the corporates and their lackeys – their carving out of the soul of the nation for the larvae of their greedy hatchlings, gorging on the procedes of their thieving of the nation’s coffers.

    (While most local papers are as pathetic in their own way. I look through ours as fast as possible, just in order to see what’s going on (and check the obituaries); as the blatant local-authority-speak induces a biliousness of revulsion which can’t for long be sustained. We can all see the corrpution here, or at best, extraodinary stupidity; but who’s going after it? )

    It does seem also to be a case of those who wish to remain ignorant doing so, and that, sadly, does seem to be the majority. The 'average citizen' simply isn’t bothered, until it starts to effect them personally, and then they often refuse to understand the real cause.

    All too regularly and tediously are my ears sullied by opinions which are obviously gleaned not from the mind of the speaker, but the columns of some right-wing government-propaganda drone; but when I rejoinder with some calm and intelligent real facts (I like to think), they soon get that frozen look of the scared rabbit in the lights of the oncoming car; before mentally scurrying out of the way just in time – out of the way of actually thinking in any meaningful way.

    However, much as the press and media appear to have lobotomised the ‘average citizen’, the internet has made it possible for anyone who wishes to do so to by-pass that in a way that has never been possible before; and therein, although it is all rather dispiriting, lies some small hope.

  74. @shaz

    How's it going? What's the blue badge scheme?

  75. @leni 'paul has often talked about tensions between black and asian communities'

    Well im sure a lot of other people have too,there is also tension and bad feeling bewtenn the african and carribean communities.my point however, was about the tensions between black/white/asian british workers and polish/slovakian/spanish/etc workers. not to forget the racisim against the Irish.(and in some cases from the Irish) i think it's a bit simplistic to just blame the 'white working class'

  76. @Meerkatjie

    I don't know how these things work in the UK, but in France, I have several "assistance" policies automatially supplied as part of the package with my car insurance, home insurance, Visa card, etc. Might your parents have anything like that?

    I suppose your mother's too ill to be repatriated and that they've contacted the consulate to see if any help is available.

  77. smtx

    i don't think I did blame it all on the WWC.

    Idid say that the WWC feel a sense of entitlement - and many do.

    This sense of entitlement is being fuelled by the BNP and the EDL - to their own advantage.

    Irepeat - there are racists in all communities. Sad fact.

    As to tensions between Africans and Carribean communities - yes I have heard of this. Is this more to do with false pride in nationality and culture ? I am asking not pronouncing.

  78. Spike

    Well, I can't disagree with your analysis in the Bergman/Hayworth debate, although, if I'm going to be honest, I didn't put so much thought into my decision. I just went with Rita because, well, she's hotter, innit!?



    I can't find it at the moment, but I do remember reading something, somewhere, about the homeless thing!!

  79. @dixon, if your friends were egyptian and your still wondering why it makes a differeance to me, basically because im not bothered in any way/shape or form about british ex pats working in the mid east and north africa , taking the doller, and then getten pissed off when a revolution happens. I am bothered about the people who live there, and about those that did once live there and now live in the diaspora(having gained assylum). some oil digger/embassy worker/tourist money maker or whatever these people do in the gulf and elsewhere, no im not bothered about them particuarly. they didnt mind previously taking the dosh, but once the regime crumbles, crying to their govts to fly them home , yet unconcerned about the bloody people who actually live, yea, to be honestnot bothered.

  80. @leni, well maybe i misuderstood you then, in your first post, you only mentioned wwc.

  81. Hello, Spike.
    The blue badge scheme is a scheme which generally allows people with disabilities to park on single yellow lines, & free at meters or pay & display car parks, to assist access.
    Westminster allows neither, although it does have some disabled parking bays.

  82. Spike

    I am going to stick with Ingrid Bergman at the moment, but I am quite prepared to be fickle.

    Being clumsy at matching names and faces means my brain is like someone who has just dropped all the record cards from one of those long drawers they used to have in libraries anyway, so I cannot immediately offer any alternatives.

    If I said the girl in [insert supermarket of choice here] the other day, it wouldn't really count, would it?

  83. What does it mean when you have really bad pain in your side, between your hip and your rib-cage, at about 7 on the usual 1-10 scale?

  84. spike, I don't think the consulate will help, and they're generally exempt from most insurance schemes because of all her 'pre-existing conditions'. She just can't raise any kind of insurance. I'll get my dad to double check, once the worst of the crisis is over. I don't want to put any more pressure on him at the moment, as he's pretty much just a stress bomb.

  85. Atom, how long has it been going on for? And which side?

  86. smtx

    White Poles and white Brits have clashed over jobs. There were protests here when white French were drafted in to build 2nd Severn crossing. It was about jobs not colour or nationality. Had there been enough jobs to go round people would probably have worked together quite happily.

    Sorry I didn't list all possible permutations - I don't tend to think of people in seperate categories of colour or ethnicity - we are all just peeps with the same basic needs.

  87. Atoms

    I had pain like that on left side - turned out to be appendicitis - please don't take this as a diagnosis.

  88. Meerkatjie

    A few days and on the right.

    I'm willing to change that, though, for a, "Yeah, it'll go away by itself soon" diagnosis.

  89. Got to go out again now.

    I think it's just a cold.

  90. yea and so have black british and white british and irish workers clashed against the poles/slovaks/spanish etc etc whats your point?

  91. well it's unlikely to be your appendix, unless you're a freak of nature and it's wormed its way over to the other side.
    Could be anything really (she said helpfully). I had a pain like that through my whole early pregnancy. could be trapped wind. A pulled muscle.... See a doctor and don't ask idiots on the interwebby what they think?

  92. @leni basically, i dont know why you keep going about WWC? its a bit complex than that.

  93. @meerkat, i read just now, your mum was ill, I hope she gets better.

  94. 'atom boy if you have a pain and its severe go to the hospital, if not, see a doc tomorrow'.

  95. and birmingham scores COME ON

  96. chase them nasty gooners out of town

  97. @Atomboy

    I'd get to see your GP sharpish if i were you mate.It's probably nothing serious,maybe a pulled muscle or a peptic ulcer.Could even be IBS.But for your own peace of mind you should get yourself examined ASAP..

    When i'm stressed i sometimes get bad indigestion and/or trapped wind which amongst other things can cause pain in the places you described.Try drinking a glass of milk and see if that helps.It may make you belch like fuck for a while but if it eases the pain at least then that's something before you get to see your GP.

  98. Er... Hold on, Leni and Meerkatjie, your appendix is on your right!

    Appendicitis usually develops very quickly, so it would be a new pain. I doubt whether a pain lasting a few days would be appendicitis, although I'm not an expert. When I had appendicitis/almost peritonitis, the pain began during the night and I was hospitalised the next day.


    Otherwise, pain between the right hip and ribs could be the liver, especially if there's a feeling of distension.

    In any case, atom, it's worth getting it checked out.

  99. smtx

    Don't know how to make my point any clearer.

    The shortage of jobs, of resources and housing increase inter racial tensions. Racicism is not confined to any one group.

    You said you didn't care about expat Brits in Libya.

    While I agree that it is the Libyan people suffering , I agree that western alliance countries supported Gaddafi - to thei shame- I still think the expats or immigrants needed caring for.

    The immigrant communities in Libya included people from several countries, including SE Asia and China.

    I'm not sure why Libyans were not given most of the jobs there.

    Global companies run on immigrant workers - sometimes for the expertise and sometimes because desperate people are willing to leave home and work in dreadful conditions for peanuts.
    It is , I think , wrong to point at any one national group and blame them for a system which is wrecking the lives of millions.

    Gvt. are complicit in this movement of immigrants or 'guest workers' as they are sometimes known.

    In many ways these immigrant workers are like refugees - they have to take what little is offered them and make the best of it.

    Most countries tried to evacuate their nationals from Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya.

  100. ROFL, I'm so sorry, I misread - I turned round Leni and Atom's post. Sorry, that's that whole dyslexic thing in action again. And another good reason not to listen to idiots on the internet... :-)

  101. @leni i think the migrant workers need caring for(from egypr/tunisia etc,) i think the brit workers taking massive doller from a frigen horredous regime are secondary, althought i hope they get out safely. i dont know how to make my point any clearer either.

  102. Thauma - excellent point about class background. There are after all rabid W/C Tories who are far from wealthy and then there's dear old Tony Benn who is. On an individual level it comes down to 'whose side are you on?'

    Re: Immigration fundamentally its NOT a race issue. Its about who controls the Labour market. The more workers there are looking for work the less employers have to pay.

    After WW2 a lot of low paid vacancies were not filled - plenty of better paid work around. The solution - immigrants were brought in from the Caribbean, as these people were visibly different from the native population the old game of divide and rule soon came into play.

    In fact of course it was in the interests of both the immigrants and the native working class to unite and fight low pay.

    Then we got identity politics which added poison to an already toxic brew. Leading to concepts like (for example) The Muslim Community (there are several of these, considerable cultural variation). Its as ludicrous as talking about the 'Christian Community' we certainly know how united that has been almost from the beginning!

    When jobs are in short supply it is perfectly reasonable that people who are settled here should feel threatened when the labour market is expanded. its not about racism or bigotry - its about survival.

    On immigration this Welshwoman could point out that compared to the people of the Celtic fringe most of the people of England are immigrants. In the UK they drove us into the west (Wales, Cornwall). Perhaps that was invasion/colonisation though!

    The history of this country is a history of immigration. We are a very polyglot lot! Increasingly so.

    Race (and gender) are not relevant, class is.

    The problem is who is going to campaign for class politics at the moment? Certainly none of the major parties. Its worrying.

  103. @atomboy; you shouldn't spend so much time splitting your sides laughing at the "Big Soc"!

  104. BTW; did someone mention peritonitis?
    Well you know what that means.......

  105. smtx

    in many cases Brit oil workers are employed and paid by Brit companies. They have a Duty of Care to their employees.


    Not about racism or bigotry. This is the point I am trying to make to smtx.

    Bad situations such as high unemployement, shortage of affordable housing let unscrupulous , self seekers in to exploit the misery.

  106. Anne

    I agree that class is the main factor but surely you're aware of the lack of class solidarity in many working class communities.And that many mixed working class communities in particular have potentially dangerous faultlines based on race and religion.I'm afraid the concept of class politics will be meaningless until and unless the issues that are causing these faultlines are addressed.Simply telling people to cast them aside in favour of class solidarity ain't going to work.

    What of course these faultlines are allowing is classic divide and rule.And as i have expressed here on many occasions i have real concerns that when things do start kicking off people living in divided communities may attack each other rather than focusing on the common enemy.

  107. Meerkatjie

    Much sympathy for all of the worry you're having about your mum (and dad).

    I spent some weeks of last year hanging around hospital wards where there were some very poorly people, but at least nobody was having to worry about paying anything.

    What's really sickening is that there are those who want to take that security away from us - trying to make out that it would be better for us to make things worse for us... How can anyone claim any decency when even attempting to do that? How can money ever be thought to matter more than someone's health? One does despair sometimes...

    Best hopes and wishes to you and your family.

  108. @chekhov

    I'd forgotten how much better an actor Burton was than Taylor. Christ, she's hamming it up in that scene, isn't she?

  109. @leni, im not sure if you think you are some of kind of oracle on these matters, i imagine you riding across the gower penisula on a horse with a welsh flag, i was just putting in my opinion.
    any way do you like this tune/ tanya stephens-turn the other cheek(you tube)

  110. smtx -I think leni mentioned the WWC in the context of the BNP and EDL?

    These groups can increase the sense of entitlement felt by these groups and increase racism.

    Back in 1968 a theory developed that looked to blacks and women to 'carry out the revolution'. It was thought that the(white) working class was to sexist and too racist to do so.

    Identity politics was born and I believe we can trace the Labour party's drift away from class politics from that time.

    The old Labour core vote (largely working class and by the nature of UK demographics largely white) has now been abandoned

  111. smtx (17:29)

    Well, fair enough, and you're obviously entitled to care about whom you choose, although you may have been a bit sweeping in your generalisation about the motivations/intentions of people who 'aren't from round those parts....'!

    (But then, I would say that, what with me being a British Ex-pat currently exploiting the wealth and resources of a foreign country, living the life of Reilly and whatnot!!*)

    *I originally wrote this an hour ago, but then, perhaps to emphasise the point about my new found life of wealth and luxury, my power and Internet went out!!

  112. Oh she has her moments in that film, Spike. And of course, she's histrionic - she's supposed to be hamming it up.

  113. @ anna i dont know about the studies/surveys you post, all i was saying is the whole immigration stuff is a bit more complicated than blaming everything on the 'white-working' class in the UK. the main thing to fight the EDL against is they set communities against each each, anti semitisim and all forms of prejudice and racisim are best fought by bringing communities together,not setting them apart in conflict.

  114. Anne, you don't think that perhaps Labour's drift from class politics is better understood as an expression as a drive for power, rather than a concern with the interests of women, ethnic minorities, disabled people, people of 'other' sexualities etc?

  115. @james, im sure your connection back on shortly

  116. Ok, the Internet/power gods have decided that I can't play out properly anymore, so I'll bid you all a good evening and go read a book or some such shit like what they did in olden times!!


    +1 in the go visit a doctor column!

  117. Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

    Picking the bones of everything which was said, I'm going to work on the basis that I'm pregnant.

    There is some distension, which tends to prove that line of thought. I think it must be the baby's head.

    Anyway, I've now got about eight months to see how things develop.

    We are going to call it Untrusted if it's a boy and Refugee if it's a girl.

    Other than that, Atomgirl keeps glaring at me and saying, "I'm not happy" because I said I would leave it for another day before involving anyone who might actually be qualified to judge.

    I think our doctor did double "bedside manner" in order to skip off "diagnosis" anyway.

  118. Paul

    I know he's a cunt, but I don't think it's Iain Duncan Smith.

  119. Atomboy:

    Congratulations on the impending arrival - in the meantime, if either of my kids told me they were in level 7 pain, I'd be nagging them to go to the doc's...

  120. @Atom

    If you like a drink as much as me, hepatic function tests can't do any harm.


    She doesn't seem so much drunk as having done a line or two too many of charlie.

  121. @Atoms, just looked up the link for Jennifer Government - I will reserve that one thanks it looks interesting.

    As for the MSM missing the elephant in the room I think another aspect is the fact that they all went to the same private schools and then hob-nobbed together at the same Oxbridge Unis. They form a narrow clique who have no idea how the vast majority live their daily lives. Just look at the output of Polly Tonybee.

  122. Atoms

    Diagnosis by internet is not a good idea. I'm with Atomgirl here-

    Go To The Doctor.

  123. smtx

    My normal conveyance is a sheep drawn goat cart. I add scythes to the wheels on St. David's day. x

  124. Good grief. that Channel 4, "Un-reported World" is one of the scariest programmes I've ever seen on TV.
    Grim doesn't do it justice.

  125. Again, genuine thanks for the concern and I will let you know the outcome - but I don't want to hog the thread.

    I think is is the liver, but I haven't drunk for some years now - or only very, very occasionally.

    I think eagles are supposed to be good for livers, so I might get one.


    It's only a rubbish, er, -ish novel, but fun.

  126. AB - phone NHS direct and get some advice 0845 4647 - if its that bad don't leave it.

    Interesting analysis of neoliberalism through the prism of the Epyptian revolution

    A revolution against neoliberalism?

    To describe blatant exploitation of the political system for personal gain as corruption misses the forest for the trees. Such exploitation is surely an outrage against Egyptian citizens, but calling it corruption suggests that the problem is aberrations from a system that would otherwise function smoothly. If this were the case then the crimes of the Mubarak regime could be attributed simply to bad character: change the people and the problems go away. But the real problem with the regime was not necessarily that high-ranking members of the government were thieves in an ordinary sense. They did not necessarily steal directly from the treasury. Rather they were enriched through a conflation of politics and business under the guise of privatization. This was less a violation of the system than business as usual. Mubarak’s Egypt, in a nutshell, was a quintessential neoliberal state.

  127. Good evening people.


    You could also try ringing NHS direct; or go to a walk in GP service if there's one in your area.

  128. Evening all

    Firstly, apols to Thaum that I whizzed on past on the M40 - had a bit of a night at a birthday party last night, and not much sleep resulting in a desire to get home and sleep this afternoon.

    Serves me right, because Ireland won the rugby as a result of me not being in front of your telly to shout at them!

    Meerkatjie - much love. Hope your Mum and Dad are ok xx

    Hi to everyone else. Tired as hell here, even though I had a nap, so will browse and mumble inanities as usual. Can't believe it is Monday tomorrow already.

  129. smtx- its not studies its memory!! (I remember most of those events..

    Where do I say I'm blaming the wwc? The events of 1968 - student unrest in Europe even some sit ins over here, the birth of post modernism etc.

    Its possible to trace the abandonment of Labour's historical role - to give working people a voice from that time.

    In the 80's we spent all our time arguing about what we should call the person who ran the meeting (chair/chairman) and about the setting up (or not) of black sections. Meanwhile the miners were on strike and got no support whatever from the LP leadership (plenty from constituency parties though

    Meerkatje - yes that too but the break with the working class lead to a complete abandonment of class politics and almost certainly lead to the LP ceasing to argue for or support w/c causes. They morphed into a party that increasingly supported middle class rather than w/c values, a belief that supporting the w/c made them 'unelectavle' this lead of course to power at all costs.

    Saw it happen...

  130. Will someone retrieve me from the spam bin please - ta.

  131. "She doesn't seem so much drunk as having done a line or two too many of charlie."
    Spike, I'd forgotten we were discussing the lovely Liz, and spent a happy five minutes trying to work out which of our internet acquaintance you were referring to.
    It was almost as much fun as the game of 'spot the GUT-alike' I was playing this morning (I've already spotted the GUT equivalents of Kiz, Bru and Hermit. I have two possible candidates for BTH.)

    Thanks BB. It's really nice to see you btw. Our work patterns seem to mean we never cross over on here anymore!

  132. I've never been in the spam bin, is it summat like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITeuaqcpckc

  133. Atoms - repeating message from sheff (now released from spam upthread):

    AB - phone NHS direct and get some advice 0845 4647 - if its that bad don't leave it.

  134. @chekhov

    I might be wrong but i think it's only posts with links that get binned.Certainly is in my case.

  135. @Atomboy

    I think MsChin is right.If you give NHS Direct a call tonight they should be able to advise you whether your symptoms need immediate attention at A&E or can wait until you see your GP.

  136. This comment has been removed by the author.

  137. This comment has been removed by the author.

  138. Advise - you were right first time, Paul!

  139. @Meerkatjie:

    I'm so sorry about your mum's situation (and your poor dad -- what a horrible place for him to be in, pursued by the hospital's money vultures while he's so worried about his wife's health). I wish I could offer some insight or guidance in finding them some help, but I'm afraid I don't have a clue.

    I'm sure it's little consolation that it would be pretty much impossible for the hospital to dun them for the outstanding balance once your mum's well enough to return to the UK.

    @Atomboy,James & Spike:

    I realise that, me being a heterosexual woman and all, you might claim that I'm not the best judge, but:

    This is the most beautiful woman in the world ever.

  140. @Atomboy; yeah like as if we didn't know already. It's journalists like John Harris who are way behind the curve in spite of being prompted to get a fucking grip over the last few years.

    It's all part of the neo-liberal con job. "Never let a good crisis go to waste"......it's the perfect smokescreen to get your legislation in through the back door.

  141. Cheers MsChin. Brain's gone walkabout tonight!

  142. EnglishHalfwit must not have been paying much attention to what any of the UT/Cif crossover posters were saying on Waddaya, if he came away with the impression that we were attempting to recruit. As I recall, we were some of the most vocal "get the fuck over yourselves" posters, n'est ce pas?

  143. Montana, Atomboy, James, Spike - I think
    Sabrina Aloueche is a contender for one of the most beautiful women... although as a heterosexual woman etc etc...

  144. Thanks Montana. x

    I've not really noticed a strong or consistent correlation between what Englishhermit says and what's really going on. It's a patter.

  145. FFS! I worked myself into a state of apoplectic fury reading the latest obscenity by that scum Nick Cohen and scrolled down to comment, only to discover that comment has been closed. I bet it won't reopen tomorrow either.

  146. @Atomboy: I don't know if it's apathy or resigned indignation or just the "shit happens" sort of attitude but all three are the stuff that don't allow the real culprits to be held to account for what is in effect nothing more than a massive fraud.

    However, just to give one example; I gave each member of my close family a copy of "The Shock Doctrine" soon after it was first published as a Christmas present. As far as I'm aware, not one of them has bothered to read it!

  147. @spike , what points did you disagree with on the 'scum nick Cohen article?) you do know he isn't Jewish dont you

  148. I believe that it was one of us who point that out to you, smtx....

  149. @meerkat nom i didnt need anyone of 'you' to point hat one out, thanks all the same though, i was asking about points mainly, got any?

  150. all my keys are sticking . but u get the drift

  151. Nick Cohen isn't Jewish! Is that right? Anyway he wrote a book titled "Cruel Brittania" and I've just pulled it from my library to find out when it was first published (1999) since you ask.
    I think I may have to re-read it to find out why I thought a lot of it made sense at the time.
    I'm no expert on Nick Cohen's career as a journalist but it hasn't escaped my notice that quite a few have suggested he might have "jumped horses" in the intervening years.

  152. be a cold day in hell meerkat when u point out anything out

  153. @chekcov seeing as you dont know what the fuck your talking about, why dont you shut the fuk up.nick cohens grandparent was jewish, you can read the article if you have use of 'google' yea. any way points of diasgreemnt might be a start, i think he is an agnostic or athiest or sumit like that, anyway dont let that stop you going for the name, like richard ingrams. racists

  154. Yes, that's true, smtx. I'm in awe of your late night, increasingly incoherent ramblings, and of course you outclass me in every possible way. You are an internet god, your intellectual ability and insight is quite incredible.

    But yes, you did have to be told that Cohen was Jewish. I remember it very well indeed. Unfortunately, because it was a night in which you appeared particularly pickled, I imagine the post has been removed.

  155. Incidentally, I've noticed that sticky key issue also seems to get more difficult for you of an evening....

  156. http://nickcohen.net/2009/02/12/jesus-im-turning-into-a-jew/

    To remind smtx, since the posts in question appear to have evaded her memory.

    Chekhov, he self-identifies as an atheist, not Jewish, and was not raised as either a religious or a secular Jew. His grandfather was Jewish. (And of course, traditionally, Judaism is 'formally' passed in the maternal line, isn't it?)

    I'm not sure why smtx imagines that his status as either Jewish or not Jewish should have any impact on Spike's evaluation of the quality of his argument, of course. It is one of those things that seems to preoccupy her enormously, though.

  157. I take it back, you're quite right, smtx, it wasn't you that didn't know he was Jewish. You were simply there in the discussion. (The pickled point remains.) My apologies.

  158. @Spike; if you've not come across it already, Melvyn Bragg's biography of Richard Burton's career (Rich) is well worth a read.

  159. nowt wrong with my sticky key at the moment meerkat, what about your side kicks? timboktu,/ tim simmones, last known getting into a spasm and you and peter braken..how embarrsasing

  160. Think on what smtx love? Did you have a question, or a point of some kind to make, or is your role for the evening the bloke in the corner going 'yeah, blah, blah' while sinking further into his chair? Say something. Say anything. Ask something. Anything. But if you're just going to be rude and incoherent, perhaps it would be best to say nothing?

  161. i think he was about to dissolve into a 'bang' last i heard.....

  162. "nowt wrong with my sticky key at the moment meerkat, what about your side kicks? timboktu,/ tim simmones, last known getting into a spasm and you and peter braken..how embarrsasing"
    You're right. That's incredibly, erm, coherent. Nothing wrong with your 'sticky keys' at all.

    Quite what is it you're trying to say here? Try short sentences.

  163. anyway, enough about that.. lets look at libya(no ex pats) does anyone on here still care? must have missed it in the commentry,

  164. yea think on meerkat

    The sort of sneery, belligerent comment heard from extremely drunk 17 yr olds outside Wetherspoon's - just after 'Whothefuckareyoulookinat? C'mon then...' and just before they vomit copiously over their own feet...

  165. @meerkat, last time ur partnet posted on here he said he got in to a bit of a state about peter braken, and he implied he missed him 'he made you go bang like no one else, ' i was quite embarassed reading it, u wana get him to lay of the pipes for a bit mate, oh didnt you know? Zzzz

  166. Oh dear god. Is that really the best you can do, smtx?

    Sorry, I thought you had a point, or something. Silly me.

  167. Yea shaz you got anything to say why not just say it, this place is more cock sucking than waddya could ever dream of being(the place u are all obbsessed about for some unknown reason,) its like a frigen echo chamber.. cue muppet boyfriend

  168. What would you like to discuss regarding Libya, SMTX? I am all agog. Really. I can't wait to hear your insights. The floor is yours. I know you're an incredible expert on so many countries in the Middle East and North Africa.

  169. oh sorry did you have a point meerkat? if you do, i will get back to you(obviously after much anaylsis and thought) your so deep aintcha

  170. Yea shaz you got anything to say why not just say it

    I did.

  171. As I said, if you want to say something, anything, I'd be happy to discuss it with you, smtx. The floor is yours. Say something. Preferably something coherent. I've made a range of points today, if you wish to respond to one of those. But really whatever takes your fancy. I can't wait for a stimulating intellectual debate.

  172. ... lets look at libya(no ex pats) does anyone on here still care? must have missed it in the commentry,

    Bleeding all over the page again smtx...and what does that prove? That you care and we don't?

  173. smtx01; do you deliberately get hold of the wrong end of the stick and base your arguments disingenuously on a false premise?
    I don't give a shit if Nick Cohen is Jewish or not! I don't really care if he has religious belief or if he is an atheist or an agnostic or whatever but all of those influences have to be taken into account when reading what he writes since he has declared his interest in them.

  174. "do you deliberately get hold of the wrong end of the stick and base your arguments disingenuously on a false premise?"

    Clearly the answer to this question is a resounding "yes".

  175. oh ok so it doesnt matter that checkovs and merrkats assertions were false,(re nick Cohen) you'l just keep going on yea.. Id suggest you keep watching that cartoon 'the promise', meanwhile in Libya...........like you lot care

  176. Some useful tips on how to make genuine Tenessee moonshine here

  177. Thanks for all the good wishes over the last 24 hours. Just finally managed to reach my dad, and my mum's sitting up. Still on a drip, and pain meds, and not allowed out yet, but at least she's upright, and able to converse.

    I might be able to concentrate on something now!

  178. Not currently available in Libya.

  179. glad your mums feeling better meerkat.

  180. Listening to The Orange Book: Clegg's Political Lemon?.

    "We have to be challenging to ourselves"?

    I'm so much looking forward to the probability of a second coalition agreement before the next general election, I can't tell you.

  181. Sorry, what false assertion did either Chekhov or I make about Nick Cohen?
    Chekhov asked a question. I pointed out we'd discussed Nick Cohen's jewish heritage before on whaddya. What are you trying to say?

  182. To be fair, we get a lot of false assertions about alleged false assertions round here. Place wouldn't be the same without them.

  183. Did I make a false assertion? If so; I apologize. Can anyone explain what it was?

  184. I'm sure it's too low brow for some, but I've had this song in my head all day. And I love this version. Good old Alf.

    Moyet: Dido

  185. I assert that your assertion is false, Ms Chin. But only on Sundays.

  186. Whoah, I just found a work colleague on CIF. Trippy.

  187. A work colleague? Surely not ManMadeGlobalWarring aka Guyius, meerkat?!