12 February 2011

12/02/11

photo by Hossam el Hamalawy
Let freedom never perish in your hands.
-Joseph Addison

150 comments:

  1. Sorry I'm late this morning. There are glaciers advancing faster than my internet connection is operating right now. I started trying to get this up more than 2 hours ago.

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  2. Morning all

    LOL at Montana with her advancing glaciers. :o)

    Him indoors home at last. 10 days can be a really long time sometimes. Brought back a hockey stick and puck for the lad - dunno where he will be able to play with it over here, though...

    Still smiling at the Egyptian revolution. I have stolen that photo at the top for my desk top. Superb.

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  4. Bitethehand, you said:

    "Where is the commission comparable to South Africa's that will bring the guilty parties to the table for a measure of justice to be seen to be done."

    The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was set up in 1995, after the first election, and well after the beginnings of the negotiated settlement. I don't think the absence of this kind of body is, for now, a significant problem.

    And while internationally, the TRC was hailed as a success, it's important to remember most victims did not feel that it was. This is because it was not, as your post suggests, focused on justice, but rather was a kind of national confession. Also because many of the parties more or less abused the process. Both the ANC and the Nats and put in their request for amnesty as a *group* which more or less flouted the point of the commission in terms of individual accountability (these attempts were overturned, but this attempt to bypass the point of the commission had a profound effect nonetheless). The nats didn't particularly engage with the process. Criticisms of De Klerk were *removed* from the final TRC report. The IFP, NP and FF (i.e in many eyes, the main agents of political violence) simply rejected the report. The only really high profile cases to emerge from the TRC were De Kok, and Winnie. They probably would have happened anyway, regardless of the TRC, and they were very clearly symbolic trials - a purge of collective guilt, with clear sacrificial lambs offered up by the various major parties. De Kok was a monster, but the monsters who controlled him, who ordered the violence itself .... well, nobody seemed to see it as at all important to bring them to trial.

    It was a nice press experience, a good attempt at Rainbow Nationism, but as an actual exercise in justice, it was a bit of a failure, really.

    It always fascinates me that people see the TRC as a wonderful example of conciliatory justice. It was more of a national confessional, really.

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  5. Meerkatjie

    Thanks for the briefing; it's good to get a voice of experience to offer an alternative to the popularly held view of the TRC. Having said that even at the time when the world's press was largely praising it, it was quite clear that it's political value was going to far outweigh any genuine justice for those who had suffered during the apartheid years.

    Nevertheless there will be deeply felt and long standing grievances in Egypt which will need to be dealt with in an acceptable manner, which was the point I was suggesting, along with a list of other demands that can be monitored in the run up to and beyond the promised elections.

    You can guarantee that there will be some in Egypt who will already be planning how to overturn the gains that have been made.

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  6. Hel One of them even told me I should have a child then I would settle down and be happy....

    Someone told me that once – didn’t work!

    Some great choons last night guys – I must learn to stay up later so I can join in!

    Going back to play the rest of them now - then I need a nap -

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  7. Hello All

    Dave's knitting is coming off the needles.

    Backing down on forest sales, cancellation of school building programme deemed unlawful and on monday he is going to relaunch BS - trying to make it intelligible to the intelligent.

    K Clark now warns middle classes they will feel pinch when cuts click in - they will regret the day when they failed to make common cause with the sick, the disabled and the unemployed people. They fail to understand the knock on effects of tory measures against the poor - they failed to understand that anyone reliant on working for a living is equally at request.

    The thought their inherent 'superiority' would protect them.

    I misheard the figure for Birmingham LA - 1500 to take vol redunancy out od total of 8,000 job losses over 3 years. Even if we assume only 2 to a family of the ditched workers we will see another 16,000 living on benefits ans scratching a living.

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  8. If a sole breadwinner in a family of 4 loses their job and draws all benefits due, including HB how much is saved ?

    LA workers come off LA pay roll and the cost of supporting their families is passed to central gvt. through benefits - tax take is reduced adding to cost. Admin costs plus gvt. handout to A4E etc per person - what are they ?. Is *any* money actually saved overall ?

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  9. Is it just me or has the intensedebate experiment mk II been a bit of a car crash?

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  10. The little boy in the pic - made me think that pictures of children standing quietly, waiting for their chance in life has been the backdrop to my life and millions of us.

    The place changes but the children remain.

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  11. chekhov

    I haven't yet managed to get into ID - if we change over I will have to struggle with it.

    I signed up here at the beginning - then lost comment box for a couple of weeks - stayed away for several months and then by chance found I could get in. So I reappeared.

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  12. Sometimes football's up there with Milton:

    http://videa.hu/videok/sport/mu2-1mcmatchhighlight.com-http-www.matchhighlight.com-eGYdrkC8kpHuUWjq

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  13. Leni

    Dave's knitting is coming off the needles.

    Yes, it does seem that the hallmark running through this government - "We haven't a clue" - seems to be showing up even more vividly, now the dazzling shine has suddenly come off everything they do.

    If Dave is hoping to use the Big Society noose as a lifeline, we will all soon have to shout and ask whether he is waving or drowning - and obviously push his head under whichever answer he gives.

    As for Ken Clarke telling the middle classes that they can also look forward to becoming filthy dole-cheat scum as the heist of a lifetime makes victims of them, too, this is either a desperate warning to attempt to limit the coming mayhem and civil unrest or we are about to see the members of the kleptocracy babbling and blurting as they stuff the swag-bags before the filth arrives.

    This is what someone on the Independent thinks of Cameron's Big (Buy One - Get One Free) Society, so let's hope his speechwriter can make it sound more convincing than last time.

    As a community activist I have done more than my fair share of unpaid work for the community.

    However the voluntary sector should not be misused to plug the gap in public spending or to replace or undermine the wages and conditions of skilled workers.

    Neither does it have the skills, training or the capacity to fulfil that role.

    The “big society” is nothing more than a euphemism for scrapping real skilled jobs and getting work done by volunteers, idiots, misfits, convicts and losers who will do a second rate job for nothing.

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  14. Hi to all.

    The “big society” is nothing more than a euphemism for scrapping real skilled jobs and getting work done by volunteers, idiots, misfits, convicts and losers who will do a second rate job for nothing.

    Why would anyone imagine it would be anything else?

    Another thing while I am on this topic: Red Nose day and all charity extravaganzas. I have never been 'happy' with the idea of ordinary folk digging deep to fund something that should be provided out of general taxation. A side show of this is the National Lottery, the number of projects that have been funded by a sum of money and then wither on the vine in subsequent years makes that method pretty wasteful and ultimately pointless unless you can guarentee an income stream after the initail build.

    Just my POV and in no way do I decry people who do charity work or make donations. I just reckon it is plain wrong to rely on that when generally the poorest give the most in both absolute terms and proportional to free cash.

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  15. Ian
    A side show of this is the National Lottery, the number of projects that have been funded by a sum of money and then wither on the vine in subsequent years makes that method pretty wasteful and ultimately pointless unless you can guarentee an income stream after the initail build.

    So true - also true of publicly funded projects where an organisation gets a fixed number of years' funding

    The workers and the beneficiaries of the project often see it fold once the term is up.

    Seen this often in Adult & Community Education.

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  16. Ian

    I agree that many grant funded projects fail because capital does not guarantee revenue.

    The expectation that the BS will suddenly produce necessary revenue, all the necessary skills and know how is a fallacy.

    Poor deprived communities already have a shortage of professionals to support community efforts. Those willing to give time are besieged by requests.

    I see it as a stepping stone to workfare - the unemployed will be dragooned into 'voluntary' service but even this will not guarantee the necessary skills.

    Dave is getting desperate - he keeps on attempting to 'relaunch' but each time is left in a tailspin on the ground.

    Dare I suggest he is an idiot ?

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  17. Hello Anne

    Are you feeling better ?

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  18. When BS fails to take up the slack in the economy and services what will Dave do then ?

    I envisage him gibbering in a corner somewhere, dribbling and gasping as he asks why it all went wrong.

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  19. Leni, I think you are right and the 'army' of marginally employed will be dragooned into projects that were previously done by the state (central or local).

    I shudder when I think of how the country will look in 5 years time when all the changes have been implemented. It will be shabby, many more PoundLand style stores, more decrepit cars on the road, long waits for treatment and so on. I honestly don't believe we can do an 'Egypt'. Reading some of the alternative financial blogs (and even some mainstream ones!), I get the impression more banking trouble is round the corner, so who knows how that will add to the mix.

    Interesting times indeed.

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  20. I had quite a long follow-up post and accidentally hit an unknown key, which sent me to the Blogspot sign-up page and I lost everything.

    Which is something like I imagine Dave's re-launch will go.

    "Oh...er....shit....phut!"

    Surely, the main fallacy is the little contrived and hobbled dance which business and charity are being made to do, against their wills and nauture.

    Dave is holding a Malibu Stacy doll, wearing a wedding-dress and a coy little smile in one hand. In the other, he is trying to hold back a slavering, thrusting Alien.

    He hopes they will fall in love and have children which are slightly less alarmingly gittish and repugnant than George Osborne, for the sake of the cameras and the media circus.

    Somehow, he has to pretend that Alien is not going to rip Malibu Stacy's head off.

    He has to pretend that rampant capitalism and penurious charity can make strange, but equal and successful bedfellows.

    The unfettered markets have taken over from religion and science as the only proper basis of belief.

    However much the ugly, vicious baby of capitalism has to suckle on the teat of the state and be fed from what has been robbed from the poor and starving, this cuckoo is the only future anyone can see.

    So, rather than the state giving money as directly as possible to the poor in order to actually aid and assist them, it has to first be fed to the sharp-toothed baby and the poor are left to sift over whatever they can use from the nappies.

    Obviously, if this means the poor simply become slaves or bonded labourers to the state, this is a price well worth paying in order to bring up the baby to a state of optimum and unbridled ferocity.

    From every process and action, some profit must be squeezed.

    Dave is simply repeating Mrs Thatcher's mantra: You cannot simply throw money at problems.

    Of course not.

    Not when that money has been pilfered from the poor and has some rich bastard's name on it.

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  21. Ian

    With enough of us we could @do an Egypyt'.

    I have long advocated millions of us standing in the streets, blocking the arteries to the City - cutting profit of at its source.

    Will enough people join ? I suspect not. Too many have bought into the idea that it is better to hang on to the bit we have and wait for the promised jam tomorrow.

    Too many fail to understand that they are being robbed not only of resources and services but also of a future.

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  22. Hi Leni, yes I agree with enough people we could bring the economy to a halt. That is the only way the populus could change things. Remember the march against the way in 2003? It is that experience that makes me despair.

    Good analogy from AB. That is exactly what is happening. I would like to make a public announcement every time library or youth club is closed. 'It is only so the Banker can keep their jobs and bonuses'. Look at Ireland, they are being robbed blind by the establishment and there is some very dirty dealings going back many years according to Golem's blog that they do not want to see the light of day. I can believe it as well.

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  23. Damn, I hate the feeling that there's a party going on somewhere else...

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  24. Atomboy - you do make me laugh whilst making serious points.

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  25. Not sure what tomorrow's changes will be, but I'm sure if we hang in there, we'll suss them out.

    Thauma, there was something enigmatic about your cropped piccie.

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  26. Good evening ... anyone out there?

    Just released 5 choons from the spambin, which were posted last night by the regulars from the late shift.

    habib

    thauma is something enigmatic IIRL.

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  27. Habib - yes, prefer the cropped one. May tinker if we go ID.

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  28. MsChin - am I?

    You are something infathomable yourself and I definitely mean that as a compliment.

    Habib - your presence is clearly required at a UT piss-up.

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  29. "Still smiling at the Egyptian Revolution."

    Yep, it's a great opportunity for those of us who believe in liberty to invest in their economy.

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  30. Liam - if that's your real name - so what do you suggest? Reinstatement of Mubarak? Permanent military coup? Or just cynical detachment? :-p

    Give them their moment of glory; no doubt it will turn to shit as it does everywhere else.

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  31. Anyway ... put a fork in me ... am done ... hasta mañana!

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  32. Liam's not my real name, thauma.

    Yeh, let's let them have their moment of glory, but all this "ooh, I think I just wet myself in empathy" shit is sooo Guardianista.

    It will turn to shit, just like it did in Russia. Freedom is a lie in the corporate age. All it leads to is enslavement by a tiny elite.

    I'm amazed that apparently informed people like you fall for this romantic bollox.

    Still, good to see that swifty is pushing his militaristic schtick on here. Still.

    Thanks to the internet, we're more informed and aware than we've ever been.

    And this is amongst the best we can come up with.

    It's shameful and tragic.

    Hank

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  33. Well what they want is bourgeois democracy, so its not exactly a socialist revolution is it?

    But it does show that with enough people can change something.

    They could end up with a military dictatorship, it was after all a comparatively leaderless and naive movement. There was no clear demand except one they got rid of Mubarak.

    They may even get democracy like ours they will learn that its no real solution...

    ...we already know it isn't.

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  34. Who says that what they want is bourgeois democracy, anne?

    I'm not sure that the Muslim Brotherhood want bourgeois democracy.

    And what's the big selling point of bourgeois democracy anyway?

    There's nothing to be said for "liberty" in the modern age if it simply means, as it does, the freedom to live as a subject of the market.

    Liberty has become fetishised at the expense of equality.

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  36. Don't think I was trying to sell bourgeois democracy ffs Hank Do you really think I would? (Look where its got us!!)

    There is much talk of 'free and fair elections' - and 'democracy' like we have - there was no clear program. the main 'platform' was to get rid of Mubarak they've done that.

    Problem is we have to recognise that the Egyptians don't have liberty and it seems attractive to them.

    As you say its a concept that has had its day. It will not solve their real problems any more than the changes in South Africa did.

    The poor will still be poor the vote (even a free and fare one) will not provide jobs, education, health care a living wage...

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  37. Actually 'Liberty' never did get those things it just got rid of feudalism and replaced it with capitalism.

    WE both know this.

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  38. Just thought I'd copy and paste my post from last night 'cos it seems to be relevant:



    Well let's hope the Egyptians don't adopt the "neo-con" "neo-liberal" consensus of a pathetic apology for a democracy which is the best template the West has come up with.

    What's the difference between being shafted by a military dictator and being took to the cleaners by a bunch of craven politicos in thrall to the money grubbing charlatans and shysters in "financial services"?

    I'm not attempting to equate the plight of the Egyptians with the concerns of people in the West about how they might be better served by their leaders but the principle is the same, isn't it!

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  39. I don't blame the Egyptian people for thinking that their problems will be solved if only they could get rid of Mubarak.

    I despair of those on here and elsewhere who posture about Cairo as though they shared in the victory, or that their values had anything in common with those on the arab street.

    They're the sort of hypocrites who would cite Mandela as a hero but send their kids to private school if the local comp was too ethnically diverse.

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  40. I don't blame the Egyptian people for thinking that their problems will be solved if only they could get rid of Mubarak.

    I'm sure the Egyptian people will be very grateful for your endorsement Hank.

    I despair of those on here and elsewhere who posture about Cairo as though they shared in the victory, or that their values had anything in common with those on the arab street.

    Seems like the "arab street" want much the same as we do - liberty and social justice - which I'm more than happy to support. If thats posturing in your view, I couldn't care less.

    I've put a few snaps up from the rally in London.

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  41. Evening all

    @Hank

    I agree with the general thrust of your analysis of the situation in Egypt.Getting rid of Mubarak will count for nothing if the Egyptian people end up with a military dicatorship who subject them to the same human rights abuses and do nothing about the appalling poverty and inequality in that country.So yes it's a bit premature to get out the bunting and assume that 'things will only get better'.

    But why the constant attacks on people here Hank?I don't give a fuck what you think about me but there are clearly some people here who genuinley like and respect you and have a lot of time for you.Yet you treat them like shit.I can't get my head around that.Disagee with people by all means but you shouldn't forget who your mates are.

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  42. Hi sheff - I'm sure you know better than me.

    Be sure to let me know how they get on with reconciling liberty and social justice. I'm not sure anyone outside of Hampstead or the Chicago School thinks it's been possible these last 30 years.

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  43. Cynicism on a Saturday night, sorry. True democracy in arab lands would be very, very bad for Israel - they'd have to stop breaking so many international laws.

    Ergo, it won't be allowed to happen.

    Egyptians will just get to carry on giving any money they can find to multi-nationals, maybe without a kickback to their chief from now on.

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  44. "But why the constant attacks..."

    Oh, Paul, it pains me as much as it does you.

    I guess it all goes back to hermione and her support for the new coalition govt. Remember that, Paul? Hermione supporting the coalition govt.

    And then the support she got from some of the regulars on here over on waddya, just because she was "witty" or "perceptive", or some such shit.

    Well, politics either matters or it doesn't. If politics doesn't matter much to some on here, and principles are less important than popularity, then the "respect" that some on here have for me counts for nothing.

    I don't give a shit about the "respect" of those for whom I have no respect.

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  45. Be sure to let me know how they get on with reconciling liberty and social justice. I'm not sure anyone outside of Hampstead or the Chicago School thinks it's been possible these last 30 years.

    Well thats the Egyptian people put in their place - how silly of them to think they could possibly change anything. All that effort for nought. The Mukhabarat will be pleased.

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  46. Sheff, good pictures. Are the Egypt solidarity ones yours, too?

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  47. Sorry, sheff. I didn't realise that you are the Egyptian people.

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  48. "I don't give a shit about the "respect" of those for whom I have no respect."

    Nicely said, toss pot.

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  49. You'll recall the days when you were in hermione's gang, habib.

    So you'll know how highly I value your opinions.

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  50. @Paul: I think Hank makes a valid point, the only problem with it is, it doesn't apply to anyone on this site. Well at least from my experience of most of the posters on here.

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  51. Never been in anyone's gang, Hank, your rather disturbed mentality seems to believe I was once in yours, too.

    We both know why you could never really value my opinions, whatever I said. It's because of your 'latent' racism.

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  52. Sorry, sheff. I didn't realise that you are the Egyptian people.

    God you can be an incredible tosser sometimes Hank! So you've given in to counsels of despair - fair enough, its your burden and its all yours to carry. I make no apology for hanging on to a few shreds of hope and optimism - middle class twat that I am.

    Habib - Yes, I took them at the rally in Trafalgar Sq today.

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  53. @habib - you know the circumstances in which you first trolled up to this forum. I haven't forgotten either.

    You were humble and apologetic then, and I paid lip service to forgiving you. But I guess I never really did forgive you because what you did was pretty fucking nasty.

    @sheff - it's not that you're a middle class twat so much as the fact that you jump on every passing bandwagon.

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  54. @sheff - it's not that you're a middle class twat so much as the fact that you jump on every passing bandwagon.

    Evey passing bandwagon? I'm busier than I thought. Perhaps you'd like to clarify that statement - otherwise it sounds like a very cheap shot from someone who does very little more these days than putting people down.

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  55. I forgave you the first time you were a nasty little shit to me, Hank, even spoke to you on the phone about it. We were going to meet for a drink, remember?

    You don't get forgiven twice, not by me.

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  56. .

    IanG - and others.

    The “big society” is nothing more than a euphemism for scrapping real skilled jobs and getting work done by volunteers, idiots, misfits, convicts and losers who will do a second rate job for nothing.

    I think you're wrong to imply that much intent and planning behind the concept. It seems to me far more logical to consider it to be a means of cutting public expenditure and saying to the electorate - if you don't get on and organise things yourself, you'll take the consequences.

    Cameron, who I suspect is a far more skilled operator than many give him credit for, will only have to cherry pick half a dozen example of people getting together to organise themselves to undertake work that had previously been done at the taxpayer's expense. Then he and the coalition will say - look at what they've done at X and Y. He'll even be able to find examples where the resultant voluntary effort is better that the previous central or local government funded one. I doubt that it will be difficult; this site and CiF are full of examples of how local and central government foul up all the time.

    As you know from the Thatcher years, there's little people like more than having a justification for their lack of social concern provided for them. And when times are bad the tendency is always to seek and often find justification for why I am still employed and someone else isn't.

    And a consequence of this is that social uprisings tend to happen when people are feeling optimistic, that there's a chance of succeeding. The march against the Iraq war attracted so many because there was a genuine feeling that the government could be persuaded to change its mind. And such was that feeling that the organisers failed dismally to implement a programme of civil disobedience, such as we've seen in Egypt, that would have maintained the momentum of the march and made it far more difficult for the cowards on Labour's back benches to have caved in to Blair's pressure.

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  57. @Hank

    FFS man you need to quit attacking Habib and Sheff.They're not the enemy and neither is Hermione.You need to focus on the wider picture.

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  58. @habib - yeh, I remember. We agreed that we were all square in terms of insults. And I was interested in meeting you for a drink until I spoke to you on the phone.

    You came across as such a woebegone self-pitying bore that I made my excuses.

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  59. Shit, Paul, there's a wider picture?

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  60. "Cameron, who I suspect is a far more skilled operator than many give him credit for,"

    "Skilled operator" my arse; he's a total cunt. The only reason he and the rest of the politicos don't get found out is 'coz they've learnt to play the game with the likes of Paxman and Humphries.

    Ask them to go on prime time tv under the scrutiny of Joe Public and they'd shit their pants!

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  61. "You came across as such a woebegone self-pitying bore that I made my excuses."

    Good judgement, I'd say.

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  62. @Paul - bless ya, you really don't have a fucking clue.

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  63. "Good judgement, I'd say."

    I don't doubt it.

    I'm a socialist, not a social worker.

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  64. Hank

    @Paul - bless ya, you really don't have a fucking clue.

    That's where you're wrong.I do have a clue which is why i'd never relentlessly attack the likes of Habib,Hermione and Sheff like you do.

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  65. @sheff - I'm happy to make cheap shots as long as you are.

    I posted something earlier about Hampastead liberals being in league with the Chicago School. It was a valid point.

    If you want to debate the point, I'd be happy to do so.

    It's gotta be more interesting than sticking up for hermione.

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  66. Ok, Paul - what is it that you believe?

    What do you care about?

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  67. "what is it that you believe?
    What do you care about?"

    Same old shite from Hank, just a different day.

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  68. Honestly, it follows a pattern...
    1) Say something reasonably intelligent
    2) Call someone a name
    3) Get shouted down
    4) Call someone a nastier name
    5) Ask them what they believe.

    So boring
    So Hank
    So wank.

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  69. @Hank

    The only thing i care about right now is listening to this rare groove by The Four Tops

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  70. Nice one, Paul.

    Would you like a bit of Faithless?

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  71. @habib -

    "Honestly, it follows a pattern...
    1. Say something reasonably intelligent..."

    That's where your thesis falls down, habib.

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  72. No, I think your first comment on this thread was reasonably intelligent, you thick, drunken fuck.

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  73. @Habib

    OK i've never heard that one before and i reckon i'll need to listen to it a few more times for it to grow on me.Here's a track you'll have certainly heard but whether you like it or not.....????

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  74. Don't bother answering that, habib.

    I've sussed you.

    And la grande dame sheff too.

    Us ineffectual types really need placard-waving Hampstead intellectuals...

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  75. "...you thick drunken fuck"

    Don't push your fucking luck, habib.

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  76. My god, you need a swine to show you where the truffles are.

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  77. Remember this? Not as good, but like I said, good days.

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  78. A bit before my time but this one from Curtis Mayfield is the bollocks!

    @Habib

    I know what you mean.Just listening to it takes you straight back.Guess we're getting older bro' :-)

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  79. "Don't push your fucking luck, habib."

    Well, would you look at that, drunken fuck makes threat of violence. That's the pig that could never find a truffle.

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  80. .

    From today's Guardian:

    Some of the organisers of Egypt's revolution announced they had formed a council to negotiate with the military and to oversee future demonstrations to keep up pressure on the army to meet demands for democratic change.

    "The council will have the authority to call for protests or call them off depending on how the situation develops," said Khaled Abdel Qader Ouda, one of the organisers.


    This is good news - probably even better that Mubarak going.

    A group of the activists issued what they called the "People's Communique No 1" – mirroring the titles of military communiques – listing demands.

    The included the immediate dissolution of Mubarak's cabinet and "suspension of the parliament elected in a rigged poll late last year".

    The reformists want a transitional administration appointed with four civilians and one military official to prepare for elections in nine months and to oversee the drafting of a new constitution.


    And this is even better.

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  81. Paul, I was hoping that was going to be the Curtis that you played. Shades on. Attitude just right.

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  82. "That's the pig that could never find a truffle."

    Oh behave yourself little man.

    I took pity on you.

    You're a little Indian prince.
    A virgin prince at that.

    Not allowed out even though you're 40 years old because you haven't got the guts to stand up to your mother.

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  83. Teachers,dictators,horses & zebras

    Have a song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3yD3fXQLM4

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  84. Hank, there are times I haven't got enough strength to make it to the loo without mum's help. That you think it's funny is okay by me - I have to laugh, too.

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  85. I never mention what I know of your personal life, Hank and never will.

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  86. @Hank

    That was bang out of order and it's not the first time you've got personal with people here just to score points with them.Makes you a A1 cunt in my estimation!

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  87. navro, that was excellent. Just what was needed.

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  88. Fuck you, habib.

    You've made as much as possible of what you know about me for two years. You had no fucking scruples about doing so.

    I've never done the same about you until now.

    So I don't feel any guilt about tonight, you little cowardly cunt.

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  90. @Habib

    I'm signing off now.Don't let the wanker get to you.I'll leave you with this classy track from Roberta Flack. Take care mate!

    Nite all

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  91. Fuck you, habib.

    'You've made as much as possible of what you know about me for two years. You had no fucking scruples about doing so.

    I've never done the same about you until now.

    So I don't feel any guilt about tonight, you little cowardly cunt'


    The thing is Hank you're way better than that pointless shot. Come on.

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  92. @Hank

    One more thing.Navro's right, you are way better than that.Sort yourself out man !

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  93. I meant your reaction to habib's last post.

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  94. Good point, navro, but what's the point?

    I've got lots to say about tax havens and the abuse of power but every time I turn up on this site I get sidetracked by some bourgeois troll.

    Anyone would think that there were loads of bourgeois trolls on this site who were intent on sidetracking debate...As if any of the regulars on here lived in Surrey, for example, were middle class professionals and earned more than they declared to the taxman while posing as righteous liberal heroes...

    I should know better by now.

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  95. Hank, write history the way you want to, but I haven't been on the internet for two years.

    "you little cowardly cunt"

    It wasn't me that bottled out of having a face to face meeting.

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  96. "every time I turn up on this site I get sidetracked by some bourgeois troll."

    Yeah, that would be your own ego, asswipe.

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  97. Whoops, hang on, everyone's up in arms about my response to habib, yeh?

    nah, no apologies. Deal with it.

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  98. "Hank, write history the way you want to, but I haven't been on the internet for two years."

    You're a liar, Habib.

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  99. Well, you have done well not to show up the racist that you are.

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  100. "It wasn't me that bottled out of a face to face meeting."

    It wasn't me either.

    Jeez, habib, you're quite a fucking piece of work.

    Do you really think that I would bottle out of a meeting?

    I'll meet you whenever you want.

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  101. "You're a liar, Habib."

    Find a quote from me, any entry before two years ago. You won't. I never made any.

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  102. So, time and place, habib...

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  103. "Find a quote from me, any entry..."

    I'll ask your mum.

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  104. Oh I am sorry, Liam (ha ha) Hank (ha ha ha ha ha) or dick.

    "Do you really think that I would bottle out of a meeting?"

    You've admitted that you've done it once.

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  105. Face it, you were shit scared.

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  106. Actually, it has been brought to my attention that I did post more than two years ago.

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  107. Well, Liam, I like to be taken out to a meal, maybe a bit of a dancing, first, before I can be invited to bed.

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  108. 'Anyone would think that there were loads of bourgeois trolls on this site who were intent on sidetracking debate

    Don't mind debate Hank. And I'm not to bothered about ruffling principles, (not that I do here)but where's the debate going?

    No lynch-pin.

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  109. Sorry Navro, that's my fault as much as that twat's. He just brings out the worst in me.

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  110. @Paul - "sort yourself out man..."

    Just reading back through. You called me a wanker.

    I'm crushed.

    Seriously, man. I care about your opinion.

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  111. Why do you think I'm a twat, habib? Seriously?

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  112. You mean aside form the racism?

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  113. Yep, aside from the racism. Let's be honest, habib, we set that aside and spoke on the phone after that, so the racism thing is a bit of a red herring isn't it?

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  114. Well it would be and I liked you again.

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  115. It's an easy option to paint yourself as a victim of racism anyway.

    A useful tactic to deflect criticism of yourself as part of a gang bullying someone suffering from depression as a result of family problems.

    You were part of that gang, weren't you habib? You and hermione?

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  116. Then you called paul the n word. How could you think that would not make me feel your apology was fake.

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  117. So, habib, which came first, the systematic bullying or the one-off racist slur?

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  118. Hank, I stand by my apology, I was wrong to laugh at you. I am still sorry. I make no excuse.

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  119. You didn't call habib a kipper did you Hank? Coz thats bang out of order.

    Attempt at light relief.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7mleSvxWqc

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  120. "I stand by my apology..."

    You've dogged me ever since you've turned up on here. It's tiresome.

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  121. No, it's a persecution complex.

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  122. According to you, I should know about those.

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  123. No, it's not a persecution complex, and I'm not a racist.

    Thanks for the apology and I'll let bygones be bygones now.

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  124. Me too. I think neither of us should expect any respect from the other. So comment is fair game, right?

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  125. Systematic bullying??? God, but you really are a precious little cunt, Hank.

    One night -- one night -- you revealed some stuff on here about your background. Habib, Hermione and a few other people from Cif misunderstood and thought you were joking/taking the piss. Once it was known that you'd been serious, Habib and Hermione both apologised to you -- sincerely and unreservedly.

    There was no "systematic bullying", you delicate little thing.

    Get over yourself. You've suffered no more than anyone else. Your no more entitled to be vile and vicious to others than anyone else.

    And you're no fucking socialist. You're a bitter little man who can't stand the thought that other people might have an easier life than you do. You don't want to lift up the less fortunate -- you just want to tear down the people you've decided are privileged.

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  127. Hi guys--Just back from the pub, decided to check in on this den of iniquity and found a low flame war. WTF? Talk it over! Have no idea of all that's gone on between Hank and Habib but it's got to be more than who's the better socialist. Does it not, or should I retreat to an even more neutral position?

    How is it going Hank, besides the latest spat?

    Hi to Habib, Paul and Montana too.

    And you too navro, keep the tunes coming, some of us do enjoy this aspect of the UT.

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  128. Too late to the party again am I? Oh well, I refuse to move but will try to engage earlier.

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  129. I'm off Bou, but I reckon this guy's shirt is going-on fantastic-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj4UFqKG5YI

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  130. Thank navro, very good, been a while since I listened to that. Nite.

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  131. Hey Boudican, the wars don't mean all that much, the peace and quite should be interrupted.

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  132. Yeah agree Habib. Good to get away from some shit. Good tune, I hear a lot of that style of music from our east coast. I like the way they enjoy themselves. You still about?

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  133. I'm still about, you got a tune?

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  134. I'm posting this for all the sambo dimwits like me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFtLONl4cNc

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  135. Bob Weir, Bongwater and the Fabulous Pussywillows

    Wow!

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  136. Actually... that Garbarek link is fucking sensational.

    By anyone's book.

    Revolution is in the air....

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  137. and now something perkier as the day breaks: Don't blame it on I

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