01 March 2011



Wohin aber gehen wir
ohne sorge sei ohne sorge
wenn es dunkel und wenn es kalt wird
sei ohne sorge
mit musik
was sollen wir tun
heiter und mit musik
und denken
angesichts eines Endes
mit musik
und wohin tragen wir
am besten
unsre Fragen und den Schauer aller Jahre
in die Traumwäscherei ohne sorge sei ohne sorge
was aber geschieht
am besten
wenn Totenstille


-Ingeborg Bachmann


  1. Reklame has been bouncing around in my brain for about 30 years now. We read it when I studied German and listened to a recording that was, if I recall correctly, Bachmann reading it herself. It was just beautiful. Here's a translation I found, for anyone who's German is no better than my extremely rusty bit. As best I can remember, this is the spirit of it, anyway. If your German's good & you disagree with any of it, feel free to say. It's not my translation. It was on a bulletin board called A Song of Ice and Fire:


    But wherever shall we go
    when it's growing dark and cold
    whatever shall we do
    and think
    facing an End
    and wherever shall we carry
    our questions and the shivers of all our years
    but whatever will happen
    when the Stillness of Death



    Oh, and sorry about the shouty all-caps where the italics are in the German -- it was a copy & paste job.

  2. @parallax:

    Actually, given the Teutonic tenor of the standfirst, I think you’ll find this is madness.

    Hände hoch!

  3. @shiloh - fair call ... (so much better than the tuets' snoralong Bam bam bam autobahn stuff)... but if you really want good head-bang you can't too far wrong with Spiderbait

  4. ”Gesundheit”

    The Taking Of Pelham 123 (1974). Walter Matthau and Robert Shaw. Good film.

    Talking of films that were subsequently remade... went to see True Grit last week. Rather enjoyed it. Couple of gripes (Bridges growling away inaudibly at times... slight over-reliance on coincidence.... the last line of the movie somewhat underplayed...) but for the most part highly entertaining. And I thought Matt Damon was in fine form as Le Boeuf.

  5. Bore da!

    Dydd Gwyl Dewi!

    Good morning!

    Happy St David's day!


    translation of song
    Awaken sleepy Wales, land of song
    Deep is the weakness, small is the flame
    Cruel is the harvest, but fair is the tune
    With the song of the lonely swan in my heart

    Every day when I wake up I thank the Lord I'm Welsh

    A feast of mead invigourated a shy Welshwoman
    I discovered the true paradise of Rhyl

    Every day when I wake up I thank the lord I'm Welsh

    Awaken sleepy Wales, land of song
    Deep is the weakness, small is the flame

  6. Talking about films (haven't seen True Grit yet) and talking about recycling (this is a lead-in to my avid domestic recycling to countermand my carbon footprint - yep right) I travel a lot, so mostly I find that I watch *new release* films on aeroplanes.

    Last week (Sydney to Perth - 4 hours, same country - massive) I watched Social Network - now THAT was good. I liked it because everyone was an arsehole - no pretence but so many redeeming features. I think the good guys won in the end - but hard to tell. Great film because it disrupts archetypes and when you're watching it you know that the US culture (and by default Hollywood's risk) of big-money-and-what-does-it-really-mean must be shifting. Good News.

    Then on the return trip I watched the documentary Inside Job and thought 'nah - the money wanks are still in charge - and still too powerful to pay for the misery they mete out'.

    Onwards ...

  7. Have you ever seen a more perfect example of Graun writers attitude to the BTL "detritus"?

    "Go and get the paperback of my book The Lost Battles when it comes out end of March, read it cover to cover, and then write me some letters of fucking apology for your disrespect."

    2nd page of comments, near top.


  8. @parallax

    Hi. On 25/2 at 15:04, you wrote (re bitey?):

    spike - that's pretty high-up-there on the tar-and-feather trigger response - I smell BNP mentality

    and I asked if you could clarify this, but you may have missed my request.

    I was just concerned there may have been some misunderstanding.

  9. @annetan 'montana re smtx, I am beginning to find her aggressive rudeness very boring-she certainly has issues,it's getting very irritating,she fails to understand that failure to mention an issue doesn't mean we dont care','I shall ignore from now on'

    whereas I'm guessing you find Montana's (amongst others)'aggressive rudeness' interlectually stimulating do you?. I started off being relatively polite on here,but after being called 'cunt' 2 or 3 times I thought what the hell.
    @james dixon 'The UT doth once more it seems,house another t'roll'.

    Whats UT's echochamber interpretation of a troll?. someone you disagree with?, someone you find objectionable and contrary?. By the way silencing and ignoring those whose views you disagree with is the territoy of fools, only a bigot supposes their views are not open for debate or disagreement.

    re failure to mention issues, not much written about the continued brutal treatment of women in Iran is there.. I watched a piece on youtube 'Iran's gender apartheid-women without rights', shocking, and I wish far more global attention was given to the appaling human rights abuses of women,men,political opponents,journalists, ethnic minorities and gay man and women in Iran(and no, That isn.t code for 'lets bomb Iran'.

  10. Jay - it's Jonathan Jones ffs - he's a plonker. I gave him shit when he reckoned there was more value protecting Egyptian art than people here.

    The Culture blogs are rife with dickheads ATL.

  11. @JayReilly
    Not exactly Paul Berger is he ?! Pure CiF - to get an art critic (a rather pompous one at that) to deconstruct security service activity between UK and US. Farcical.

  12. i see Ashley Cole keeps his place at Chelsea after shooting a student on work experiance. 'ashley cole shoots intern with rifle at chelsea club grounds' (you tube)

  13. Hi Spike - yes I saw that some while after the event, then the conversation rolled on and I didn't know whether to rake over old coals and you seemed to be immersed in other conversations. So, first point, no I wasn't ignoring you.

    The BNP mentality is pretty obvious don't you think if you ask for someone's address and threaten to daub 'You're a paedophile' on their house? What do you think? I can't see how you can justify that.

  14. @parallax

    Ah, there are wheels within wheels! I should have provided more explanation.

    Bitey has always been fond of declaring that "elsewhere" (hoping people won't check), I've supported Stalinism or the suicide bombing of civilians, or Gaddafi, or some massacre or other, etc. When he does that on CiF, I report the lies as personal abuse and ask for them to be deleted. (But only when they are ad hominem lies, not opinion.)

    Bitey feels this is censorship and "collaboration with the mods". He feels he should be allowed to lie about other people and stalk them to his heart's content.

    Anyway, Bitey has on more than one occasion defended underage sex, especially in the case of a female teacher who groomed and had sex with a 15-year-old girl in her care. He felt the teacher shouldn't have been punished or at least less severely.

    So when bitey pores over the vast archives he keeps on people, produces some comment made months ago and quotes it out of context to smear me (or BeautifulBurnout - I think we're mainly the two people he stalks), I ask him if he'd be happy for me to use his posts to denounce him as a paedophile.

    That was why I used the example I did. I certainly don't think there's any chance of him giving me his name and address (!) and if he did, I wouldn't paint any such comment across the road from him, of course.

    I was just pointing out that if someone did do so, I shouldn't think he'd consider it censorship to scrub it off the wall, just as I don't consider it censorship to have his lies about me removed.

    So I hope you'll agree there was actually nothing sinister or gratuitous about it.

    Bitey himself on occasion implies that he's discovered someone's identity IRL or details about them, and threatens them with legal action or reprisals, which I think you'll agree is going rather further than an analogy.

  15. Morning all


    My humblest apologies, because 'troll' was, perhaps a little harsh!

    In my defence though, I only used it because I couldn't get 'bizarre passive/aggressive, shouty, contrary, fly off the handle at the slightest provocation, or imagined provocation, angst-ridden, reality challenged newcomer' to rhyme!!

    And, for the record, nobody's silencing your views, or supposing that their own are beyond debate or disagreement. In fact, so far, I've seen several people invite you to debate with them, ask your opinion on x, or, in my case, ask for you to provide links etc for info, tools, resources for helping Libya, because, buried somewhere in your abuse, you may have had a kernel of a point.

    So far, however, all I've seen you respond with is personal abuse, deafening silence, the odd crime against grammar, and some rather bizarre and I'll-considered sweeping generalisations about "ex-pats" and tradespeople!

    (You have still failed to provide a single link, website, e-mail address, or other resource for us to help Libya, which, given that you're so massively concerned with, and went mental at us for not being involved enough with, I have to say, I find a little bizarre. Just typing "Libya, violence" YouTube doesn't count, btw....)

    Anyways, let's just say, for a second, that this could all be put down to some kind of misunderstanding, mis-communication, or even missed communication, or that we may have all got off on the wrong foot, and we'd all benefit from starting over!!

    So, this is your moment, smtx, your chance to shine! From the vastness of the conversational, the infiniteness of the debate, what would you like to talk about?

    The floor is yours.....

  16. I think a few people should report Jonathan Jones's BTL response to the mods. I know that if I'd talked in such terms to the ATL Cuntributor, the post wouldn't have lasted spitting time.

    The article itself is an early contender for Worst Article of The Year - by turns pretentious, melodramatic and pointless - which is a relief, as I thought that Bidi had the field to herself. I'm sure Barbara Ellen and MacShane can up their game to produce a few atrocities. If MacShane's not already doing 15-to-life at Her Maj's Pleasure, that is.

  17. Spike:
    So what? I don't see how that absolves your BNP mentality - *just pointing out* carries with it the imagination and delight of doing it - I mean how is your interaction constructive? Or, how does it differ from the type of behaviour that you say you despise?

  18. Jonathan Jones's "The Lost Battles". Stu Sutcliffe and Pete Best?

    I wonder if there's anything to some of the UTer's contentions that the good ship Guardian is rapidly sinking without trace (deadwood Graun sales down about 7% in the last 12 months, IIRC). Or maybe it's just them trying to find logic in a graceless hatchet job: "Obviously they must be on their last legs, or they wouldn't have done it so quickly and with no notice."

    Alternatively, they're just a bunch of cunts [© lolpenz 2011] and incompetents who don't give a fuck, and didn't want to have to listen to all the whining weeks in advance of pulling the plug. I'm going with Explanation B.

  19. @Eddie:

    Or c)...

    “Dear Sir. We have been instructed by our client X, a large quasi-religious cult/international oil conglomerate/UK-based PLC working in the public sector/multinational consultancy, to request that you remove forthwith all allegations made on your talkboards of our client’s lack of probity/abuse of human rights/price fixing/general cuntishness (see Annex 1).

    Failure to comply immediately with this request will result in our pursuing GNM through the courts for substantial damages.

    Yours etc


    For Messrs Carter Fuck.”

  20. @parallax

    Oh, I see, you didn't really want an explanation, just to get in a bit of abuse there. You think an analogy (you wouldn't like it if I did this) is the same as an expressed intention (I want to do this).

    And "Imagination and delight", eh? Fucking hell, I haven't met a mind-reader before. In fact, I haven't met one now. I'm underwhelmed.

  21. Just heard that some visitors from McKinseys arrived for a meeting yesterday at our Primary Care Trust offices in a chauffuer-driven limo. Just after scores of redundancies. Have these cunts have no shame ?

  22. Bitters

    You have to be aware before you can experience shame.

  23. @BW:

    A chauffeur-driven limo? Christ, did they also all pile out wearing top hat ‘n’ tails, quaffing champers from the neck of the bottle, and blowing little party tooters? It could hardly have made a worse first impression, could it?

    Where I work, we share the office building with two floors of PA Consulting, one floor of Google, and an Italian shipping firm. The Italians are pretty much what you’d expect, the Google office is kitted out like some kind of kid’s nursery (wacky brand, wacky office, hell yeah!), but it’s the PA consultants I reserve particular fucking scorn for. You get in the lift and there’s scores of the cunts in there, braying loudly for everyone else’s benefit about “advising the Minister this”, “taking a tough line on trimming out the fat” that... although I did run into General Sir Mike Jackson (presumably “consulting” on matters MOD) the other week, which was an interesting encounter, all things considered.

  24. @James re Libya; Firstly I'm of the opinion that many on this forum, (and that includes yourself), do not believe my 'concern' and 'anger' over what has been happening in Libya is genuine.
    But mainly my point and my anger was that, had more pressure been brought to bear against Gaddafi earlier, then Libyan citizens may not have been shot in such great numbers on the Streets of Benghazi and Tripoli.
    I genuinely believe that the international community, social commentators,journalists and internet posters have had a different reaction to Libya's upheaval and protests than they did when compared with Tunisia and Egypt.World leaders were quick to call for Mubarak to step down,there was not this sense of outrage or urgency over Gaddafi,even though far more people have been killed.
    Gaddafi has been in power for 42 years,yet was allowed to chair an important UN Committee on Human Rights, Have The UN only recently discovered Gaddafi's human rights abuses?.

    Now the international community finally appears to be finding a voice, having been mute for so long,fearful of their own interests no doubt.Gaddafi's assets are now frozen and his exile barred, I think a no fly zone could be implemented to prevent air attacks against civilians.But do not believe in military intervention.
    In the end this is a Libyan popular uprising,and freedom is closer than ever before.So many Libyans have fought for and dreamed of this moment for such a long time.
    The anti Gaddafi movement here in the UK has been active for a long time- but for obvious reasons was always cloaked in secrecy and identities of those involved were never revealed. Now the Libyan people's long awaited fight for freedom is within touching distance.

  25. @Leni
    True that.

    I was particularly stunned as our offices are are about 48 minutes from Euston and 55 minutes from Birmingham Central, with a quarter hour black cab drive this end. WTF merits a fucking limo ?? Feels pretty abusive towards their clients if you ask me !

    Did you ask Jacko about anything in particular ?

  26. One thing I wonder about Gaddafi – presumably, he’s got warehouses full of dirt just waiting to be dished on “the West” and its 40 year complicity in propping up his odious régime. So my question is – when’s he going to start dumping on the collective Western head? And possibly also – why hasn’t he started doing so yet?

  27. The international response to the fleeing refugees on the Libyan-Tunisian border is far too slow.

    If we want to genuinely help to rebuild these countries we should attend first to the needs of the people.

    as usual our own interests will come first.


    I have seen very little about the availabilty of food or medical help within Libya itself. We know that many have been killed and injured - very little about the help they need.

    I know that there were foreign nurses in the hospitals prior to the uprising - how many have fled I don't know.

    Not all foreign workers there were taking the imperialist penny.

  28. Shiloh

    Quite a lot of dirt already dished on the LSE. Much more to come of course.

    Name and shame - and then remove from any position of responsibility - I hope. Probably in vain.

  29. @BW:

    Just the usual, really – how’s Bubbles... tough break on being dead an’ all... sheesh, kids today, eh... no offence Mike but I always hated “Thriller”... etc.

    Actually, the reality was better than that. Remind me to fill you in when I’m enjoying a couple of pints with you, mate.

  30. @leni; thousands and thousands of migrant workers still languish on the borders,hardly anything in the way of humanitarian assistance and aid.

  31. SB - sounds good to me buddy.

  32. @Leni:

    It’s not the fact that some of it is out there, but rather the fact that he hasn’t unleashed it all, which I think is significant.

    If he felt he was absolutely in a corner, and there was no further advantage to be gained from keeping his cards close, he’d chuck them on the table, wouldn’t he? Along the lines of “if I’m going down, I’m taking you lot down with me”.

    The fact he hasn’t suggests he doesn’t think he’s at the end game just yet. Which means he’s either a) confident that he can keep it together (based on what?), or b) he’s a reality-denying lunatic. Or maybe a bit of both.

    Of course, he may be holding on to the information in the hope it’ll have some currency in his next life as ex-Libyan dictator. But that would just bring us back to b) again, at least judging by the moves now being made to seize and isolate his off-shore assets.

    Whatever the future holds for him, it won’t be a comfy retirement pad in Hampstead any more.

  33. Anyway, in other news:

    Penthouse 3D channel to fill European screens with three-dimensional smut, starting today

    Apparently you’ll need glasses to watch. Which means Mother was right – it does ruin your eyesight.

  34. I was run over by the truth one day.
    Ever since the accident I've walked this way
    So stick my legs in plaster
    Tell me lies about Vietnam.


    You put your bombers in, you put your conscience out,
    You take the human being and you twist it all about
    So scrub my skin with women
    Chain my tongue with whisky
    Stuff my nose with garlic
    Coat my eyes with butter
    Fill my ears with silver
    Stick my legs in plaster
    Tell me lies about Vietnam.

    (Adrian Mitchell)

    I keep on thinking about this.

  35. Afternoon

    Gorgeous sunset here....

    Some alternative Oscars.....

    and the Arab Oscars go to....

    Some great poems over the last few days from you guys.

  36. Sheff

    Facebook link doesn't work.

    I would be interested to know more.

  37. Leni

    Sorry about the FBook link - Try sticking March 15th into the FB search thingy you might get it up that way. I'm not on FB so can't help.

    You might be interested in this too:

    What this means for Israel and Iran

    Make no mistake, the third intifada is coming and it will start in northern Palestine (inside what is now called Israel), it may start in Um al Fahm, or Baqa al Gharbiya, some other town, but its coming, sooner than ever thanks to the revolutionary people’s uprisings sweeping the old Middle East and it is Israel that will soon feel the birth pang’s of the new Middle East.

  38. @Shiloh ..Where I work, we share the office building with two floors of PA Consulting, .... Don't talk to me about bloody PA consulting. I had to work with these twats, 3 of them, who wondered round the site like they owned the place. Asking stupid questions, demanding reports, nit picking and asking more stupid questions. They seemed to have a really high opinion of themselves as well.

    BTW, I hope Atoms is OK. Last thing I heard is he had a nasty pain and was going to see the quack.

  39. Asking stupid questions, demanding reports, nit picking and asking more stupid questions.

    Sound like my employers Ian.

    Atoms non appearance is a bit of a worry....hope he's ok.

  40. Leni

    Another little tragedy thats largely gone unreported - I wonder how many more of them there are....

    Fadoua Laroui - The Moroccan Bouazizi

  41. Sheff -

    She died in a Casablanca hospital two days later.

    Poor soul - does anyone know what has happened to her kids?

    Or to millions of others all over the world who have been left orphaned by poverty, disease, prejudice and despair.

    One day perhaps it will end - till yhen we have fight in any way we can.

    I wish I was 30 years younger and a hell of a lot healthier I sometimes feel so useless!

  42. Sheff + Anne

    A really sad story. I too wonder what happened to the children.

    There is so little understanding - and even less caring - about the affects of poverty and disempowerment on people.

    I am wondering about Atoms - hope all is well with him.

  43. BW

    "Organizational change in a crisis: moving quickly and thinking long term.

    Companies that develop the right performance transformation strategy to manage a crisis can make themselves stronger for the long term. In crises such as the current one, most companies have to make significant organizational changes quickly to survive and prosper. Many make them purely on a tactical, short-term basis. This approach may be appropriate if the situation is truly dire—if there is a risk of not meeting the payroll, for example. Most companies, though, can and should think beyond the next few months. By making good use of the pressure a crisis creates, they can not only survive but also emerge in positions of strength".

    This is a taste of what McKinsey's can do for you and your local PCT. Jeez.

  44. Anyone with attachment to Liverpool or scousers needs to fly to waddya in their defence. (Page 3 )

  45. Oh dear - anti Scouser comments continuing on page 4.

    Astonishing how people can make blanket statements without offering any insight - or indeed any evidence of thought.

  46. Oh leni, this better be worth a visit!

  47. Anyone with attachment to Liverpool or scousers needs to fly to waddya in their defence.

    Well, I'm quite fond of Monkeyfish but I don't suppose that'll cut much ice on Waddya.

    Also hope Atomboy is OK. If it was his appendix and they decided to whip it out, I expect he will be very sore for a few days (although I think they can do it by keyhole surgery now?).

  48. Leni, it's Pairubu... he's always been a nob end.

  49. "Leni, it's Pairubu... he's always been a nob end."

    well - that's ok then Habib . x

  50. @sheff you link to Nir Rosen 'What this means for Iran and Israel', are you an admirer? did you enjoy Nir's jokes about the female reporter Lara Logan horrifically sexually assalted in Egypt for 30 minutes whilst her attackers screamed 'Jew' 'Jew'...well funny wern't it.
    you also link to some promotional video for the next Arab revolution;the Palestinian one, and write 'the revolution will be televised and promoted'; and you go onto wonder with abandon how many other 'little tragedy's have gone unreported'; well theres a few,maybe we could start with the 'forgotton revolt', you know,one of those where the 'Revolution will NOT be televised', lets start with Mauritania; From Reuters 'Nouakchott -Hundreds of people took to the streets in Mauritania on Friday calling for better living conditions and more jobs in the vast impoverished desert nation that straddles black and Arab Africa,such demonstrations are rare in the West African country and few expect to see protests on the scale of those that have rocked Tunisia, Egypt and Libya and to a lesser extent neighbouring Algeria', A handful in the crowd of 1,000-1,500 mostly young people who took part in the peaceful protest demanded the departure of President Mohamed Ould Abdel Aziz, but they were in the minority, and there was only a light security presence. 'The President has to respect his people,Aziz has always said he is the President of the poor,now the poor are in front of you asking for dialogue' said Mohhamed Mahmoud, a social worker, he writes ' There is no party behind us, there is no particular tribe behind this, we are behind you against the war against terrorism,but you've got to stand behind us in our war against hunger'.
    *Abdel Aziz first came to power in a 2008 coup and then won an election in 2009,which has largely resored stability to the nation but failed to bridge the gap between the mostly rich Arab elite and the largely poorer African classes.

  51. From the dept of you really could not make this up.

    The Dutch Senate elections are tomorrow and peroxided nightmare Geert Wilders PVV have finally lost all touch with the reality they may have held.

    In the Dutch province of Gelderland, PVV candidate Olof Wullink has said that all 'imported exotic' animals such as Scottish Highland cows should be sent back to where they came from. Direct quote:

    "What we don't like is the imported exotic animals like Highland cattle and Polish ponies. The horses should go back to Poland, the cattle to Scotland and here we should have our own nature."

    Hopefully once all the Highland cattle are shipped off at Rotterdam the PVV will turn their attention to migrating birds. And don't get them started on potatoes- filthy imported American muck....

  52. Duke

    Can you tell OW that Lincolnshire would like its pigs back, please. Or was it Staffordshire? And there's the Welsh lamb and the Barnsley chop to consider. Anyway, I only ask because my Dutch is non existent.

  53. @Da Duke

    They'd better stop putting mayonnaise on their chips. Ooh, hold on... Chips? French fries?

  54. MsChin, will do.

    Spike, after they've sent the French fries back to France, the Tulips are being sent back to Persia.

    And as the PVV want the Netherlands go back to its 'original nature' they'll be bursting the dikes and resubmerging the quarter of the Netherlands that has been reclaimed in the last few centuries.

    Absolute fuckwits. Beyond satire.

  55. Leni

    Just released a post to your good self, from Swifty @4.30-ish, which I found in the spam.

  56. They'll have to give up those hash caffs Your Grace - and go back to drinking some foul brew made from turnips and potato peelings, and no more coffee; and scrape the paint off all those pictures in the Rijksmuseum. You're right - it is beyond satire.


    Can't be bothered to respond. Feel free to assume what you like.

  57. Ooh sheff, "can't be bothered to respond" song suggested.

  58. @sheff 'cant be bothered to respond'..why.. because you agree with nir rosen?, rather a pathetic non response.. didnt expect much more to be honest though.

  59. @ sheff What about Mauritania? does that register on your radar at all, nah..obviously not.

  60. How has Ashley Cole not been at least brought in for questioning after shooting someone?

  61. "drinking some foul brew made from turnips and potato peelings"

    You've had southern "beer", then, Sheff?

  62. @ sheff .. why not even a faux condemnation of nir rosens jokes about violant sexual assault? nothing. nada de nada ..

  63. You've had southern "beer" too, habib?

    Yuck. Nasty stuff, that is.

  64. Aye, MsChin, except for Flowers, possibly.

  65. Thanks for the choon Habib....

    As I said smtx - think what you like, say what you like, I'm not interested. I've just made a brew and I'm going back to my rather excellent book. night night.

  66. The ref should have gone to Specsavers.

  67. Evening all

    Heard this track fromJoni Mitchell for the first time.She recorded it in the 80,s during the Ethiopian famine but if you listen to some of the words they could also apply to any number of other countries both before and since.

  68. Watcha, Paul!

    That Kyle Eastwood/Joni Mitchell track blew me away, yesterday.


  69. smtx

    Firstly, it's not my place to question how genuine your concern for Libya is, or anywhere or anything else for that matter, it's an Internet blog, but, when you come on here, yourself screaming at people for not being concerned enough, I think it's fairly legitimate to ask what exactly it is you're doing that's more effective or genuine.

    And, like I said before, there are eleventy-twelve reasons why people here were, or could have been, considerably more vocal about Egypt, or Tunisia, and if, for whatever reason, you care more about Libya, you can't expect or demand that everyone else does. Shit doesn't work like that. I feel quite strongly that I should be the king of everything, ever, but I can't go spitting my dummy out everytime people decide to talk about politics, or whatever instead, or just generally don't think that me being made the king of everything ever is any kind of priority for them.

    That said, however, certain people here did make mention of Libya, and what did you do? You complained about what they were saying, or their sources, because they weren't up to your standard, or were written by a furriner, or whatever it was that displeased you!

    So, really, you can probably understand why people have decided to give you a bit of a wide berth, surely? Short of saying exactly what you want, when you want, and with the frequency you want it done at, it seems you ain't going to be happy!
    Furthermore, you seemed overly willing to blame a lack of any international response on the perceived silence here, which, as I said before, was probably a massive overestimation, on your part, of the power, readership and reach of the Untrusted!!

    Anyway, with regards to the actual issue, I tend to agree with you. The international community was slower to act with Libya (although they had spoken out by the time you made the assertion on Friday, btw), and that was almost certainly due to some frenzied paper shredding/damage limitation/cost-benefit-analysis type activities taking place beforehand. (Again though, I don't think you'll find many fans/advocates of that kind of RealPolitik here, so that's hardly our fault either, is it?)

    So yes, the Libya situation is different, in many ways, and for many reasons, and, unfortunately, all that most of us can do, is watch how it plays out, hoping and wishing for the best! Once more, if you know of something we could do that would be more constructive, or effective, please, feel free to offer you suggestions, links or ideas!!

  70. Truly fed up here with t'intermet connection, which has been on/off/on/off for days now. Grrrr!

    *Mini-rant over*

  71. t'interMet?

    Grrrr! I meant t'interNet, obv.

  72. Welcome to my world, MsChin!!


  73. @ james, I can only repeat myself, the international community(it's agencies and it' movements) did not act/respond with the same 'urgency' as they did with other countries involved in the North African protests, and that the international response from global governments and the wider public in general, including sites like this,and the Guardian/independents was far far less outraged. Whitaker was fawning for example.. and I do think Gaddafi has held a place in some of the lefts heart for a very long time. My outrage, as I have said previously, may be too personal, I grew up with Libyans as a teenager,friends taught me to cook, stuck sellotaped henna on my ankles and hands for wedding receptions, and the people I knew became a big part of my life for a number of years, and we stayed in contact for over 15 years(thats the people in Benghazi) and I have also known activists involved in the anti gaddafi movement here since my teenage years,(what can I say I had a strange/bizzare/wonderful upbringing.) so yes my connection to Libya was personal, but I still believe the lack of commentry was disturbing, and to be honest im not going to loose any sleep over people on here choosing to selectivly ignore posts(with the exception of yourself,thauma,leni and paul/ but To be honest Cif, with all of it's faults and it has many, has a far broader audiance than here, I mean UT really does resemble an echo chamber. wheres the diversity? the arguements? the differances? oh and by the way dixon...ditties dont always ave to rhyme..

  74. heff - interesting article and quite a lot of truth in it. I recognise some of those people, they are in my Union (UCU), the proposed academic boycott which alienated many members including most Jewish members. Some of the most vocally against the policy were pro-Palestinian Israelis.

    The Palestinian situation can, I believe, be at least partially laid at the door of the very rulers of Arab states that so many Arabs are now actively engaged in removing.

    Along with divide and rule we should not forget that encouraging the hatred of a common enemy diverts people's attention from the real enemy who is royally (sometimes literally so) shafting them at home.

    Interesting times eh?

  75. But James, I live on a hill, and in Yorkshire to boot, so I expect things to work (and if they don't then you fix 'em with gaffer tape).

    Just tiptoed over to Waddya, seems they've had quite a night over there.

  76. @Hi Habib

    You're welcome.Can't remember whether you're a United or City man.Commiserations if it's the former.

  77. My youngest has had a horrible year, long term gf gone, appendix burst, been mugged/stabbed and possibly got throat cancer. Nice.

    My beloved has also had a great year, too much work, a very ill mum in the States (omg that's gonna cost), a dad that is stressed out like a tight walkers rope.

    Still, could be worse. I am so looking forwards to 26 th!

  78. @tim

    Shit man that's a lot you're dealing with.Thing is most people are a lot more resilient than they realize so you'll cope.And hopefully you've got all the support you need.Fingers crossed that things soon get better for you and your family.All the best!

  79. smtx

    They don't have to rhyme, you're right, but I'd already committed to the A, B, A, B pattern, and the longer alternative would have totally fucked up the existing enjambment!!

    And, I sort of get what you're saying about The UT, because most people who gravitate here do have a very similar view on a lot of things. But certainly not all people, and not all things.
    And there are arguments, for sure!! And sometimes, some extremely interesting debates, conducted by some very sharp minds, although admittedly these have dimished in frequency since we're all pretty much agreed on the fact that our current coalition is a big bunch of fucking fuck faced fuckers, operating in a system operated for, and by a massive gaggle of cunts!!


    I'm struggling more than normal here, precisely because I can't find gaffa tape, if you can believe that!? And I use for most medical conditions too.....

  80. timboktutu

    Commiserations. Hope things get better soon!!

  81. @sntx01;
    "I mean UT really does resemble an echo chamber. wheres the diversity? the arguements? the differances?"
    Well you are quite right, this site does resemble an echo chamber in some ways.

    Did you ever consider why that might be?

    Did you know that most of us migrated here because we were sick and tired of being either "modded" or banned on CIF and therefore have quite a lot in common?

    Is there summat wrong with like minded people finding common cause with others who are equally affronted by arbitrary censorship?

    I agree with you, there's not much alternative arguement on here but its been tried before.
    The difference between Cif and UT is that this site is not moderated so people are wary of coming on here and spouting bigotted crap since they know fine well they will be given the bums rush and laughed out of court if they can't come up with the goods to substantiate their case.

  82. An excellent and true article by Brendan O Neill Sheff, and kudos to you for putting it up as I suspect you disagree with it. Saudi Arabia and others are sitting on an immense oil wealth and do fuck all for the Palestianan cause instead leaving it to Western activists.

    In otehr news life has gone to hell. I'm unemployable. I will never get to work :{{. If I were religious I suppose I would consider something like monasticism, but I'm not.

  83. Paul, Liverpool red born and bred, just living in the land of demons and light blue sprites.

  84. Sheff- nice stirring links this evening !

    Ace vid here from MSNBC's Dylan Rattigan. keeping up the good work on Retribution for the GFC. Well it's good to see some of the MSM extracting digits ...

    The EU – Less Ethical than Tesco or Wal-Mart!
    A piece a month ago on the EU (that's us) sucking up to the torturer and slavedriver Karimov -- here at CraigMurray's blog.

  85. BTW: what "footy" did I miss? Must have been on Sky ...right?

  86. they know fine well they will be given the bums rush and laughed out of court if they can't come up with the goods to substantiate their case.

    Indeed, chekhov. And no different from some people here who have consistently tried to argue from the 'left', but have been marginalised and ignored and have eventually left because their politics doesn't fit with the blinkerered middle-class view of 'wadicalism' that seems so prevalent here.

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  88. This comment has been removed by the author.

  89. oops double posted (hows that done?)

  90. 'ashley cole shoots intern with rifle at chelsea club grounds'(u tube)

  91. I looked at waddya, first page the end of an earnest discussion between Spike and Kizbot on 'knee-tremblers'! Last page everyone seemed to have been having a fight with a Mr Malik, about something.

    Or other.

    NN all !

  92. JD -- Night to you and the other NightOwls! XX


  93. Scherfig, you talk of people who

    "have been marginalised and ignored and have eventually left because their politics doesn't fit with the blinkerered middle-class view of 'wadicalism' that seems so prevalent here."

    Well that's bollocks, really.

    People leave for various reasons, their strong ideology is never one of them. You should look to their vanity and sense of self importance as the biggest cause.

    If they're not stroked, they get upset.

  94. charlie

    Now this Russian trip of yours is off you need to do something to shake yourself out of this rut you're in.And there's stuff you can do.If you're 'signing on' you should be eligible to do a free part time training course in something you enjoy doing which you can combine with your OU studies.Or you could do part time voluntary work which could give you skills and experience which will benefit your CV.Might be worth thinking about.And next time you 'sign on' have a chat with the JobCentrePlus bod to check what you can do without affecting your benefit entitlement.

  95. Don't agree, heyhabib. When links from the Asia Times (google it) from 'respected' posters are taken seriously then it's hard to give any credence to anything here. A rudimentary intellectual rigour should be taken for granted along with a welcome emotional political committment but most of the stuff here just strikes me as lazy posing.

    But then I've said that a hundred times before, and just get abused for it. Which doesn't make it any less true. Maybe sometime some of you will wake up. And maybe eventually you, habib, will discover what an ideology really is - and try to express it and argue for it instead of jut being nice and posting songs.

  96. @Sherfig;
    "Indeed, chekhov. And no different from some people here who have consistently tried to argue from the 'left', but have been marginalised and ignored and have eventually left because their politics doesn't fit with the blinkerered middle-class view of 'wadicalism' that seems so prevalent here"

    I didn't join this site from the outset but if I'm right and correct me if I'm wrong you are referring to people such as yourself and the likes of Hank and Monkeyfish.
    Well there's nothing to stop them commenting on here or yourself.
    If you feel usurped by a bunch of middle class tossers then feel free to say so.
    As far as I'm concerned I wish you and Hank and Monkeyfish would contribute more and I don't know why you don't 'coz you won't get modded!

  97. If you feel usurped by a bunch of middle class tossers then feel free to say so.

    Thanks, chekhov. I do feel that. And it's too late to reverse the tide. Although I was a founder member of this site, my recent very negative criticisms of what I think this place has become have simply elicited a 'fuck off scherfig' response from montana and others whenever I post. Hank, monkeyfish, olching, peterguillam, patdavers, peterbracken etc just don't bother anymore. So what you have is twenty people all regularly saying Tony blair is a cunt and the Tories are bastards. If you like reading/writing that several times a day, then that's brilliant. If you are used to a bit more subtlety/nuance/provocation/argument, then it's like watching paint dry.

  98. And maybe eventually you, Scherfig, will discover what an ideology really is - and try to express it and argue for it instead of jut (sic) being sanctimonious.

  99. If you are used to a bit more subtlety/nuance/provocation/argument, then it's like watching paint dry.

    And what exactly has been your contribution to this site Scherfig?Certainly all i've heard from you in the time i've been posting here is that most people,in your opinion, aren't up to scratch,and you're never gonna post here again.Now that ,im my opinion,is like watching paint dry.

  100. @Scherfig; yeah it's a fucker isn't it? Do you know all the answers? Write them down and post them to me...life is so simple isn't it?

  101. Oh shit. I brought class into the equation! You talk a lot of sense. Keep posting on here we need more people like you!

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  103. @chekhov

    I think you got it in one with your 1.27am post.Discussing problems is easy.Finding solutions is much much harder given the political landscape we have in this country.

  104. Paul

    Political and economic theory have failed to solve the problems.

    Marx started out as a humanist writer. He was disappointed to find that the middle classes resisted the pressure for change from below.

    Top down systems persist - in a global economy the elite weild even more power.

    A solution to poverty will have to sought outside traditional political and economic systems.
    Poverty is currently seen as part of the political system and economically is definately part of the business cycle.

    Poverty and marginalisation through high unemployment has to be tackled as a free standing problem and adressed as such.

  105. @Leni

    I agree with you.But focusing on the UK when are we going to hit the trigger point when the working classes will be motivated enough to exert the upward pressure needed to force through changes which will have more effect than just a bit of sticking plaster on an open wound?

  106. I should have added that as i've said several times before i think we are going to see an upsurge in social unrest in this country.But what i'm not sure about is whether a new politics will arise from that or whether the response of the political classes will be to maintain the status quo.ie not do anything to tackle the structural inequalities in this country.Or put another way how easily will the divided and fragmented working classes allow the political classes to buy them off with measures that do nothing to tackle the structural inequalities?

  107. PAul, thanks for your concern. I have some bollocks job centre outsourced training crap next Monday. Probably run by ATOS as well. Yes, there are a lot of things I can do, and I do a lot, but I honestly can say that I can NEVER see myself entering the labour market. Anyway, best go to bed. I've been sleeping a lot, the feeling I'm having now is back to the worst days of my late teenage/early 20s depression, something I thought I'd finally left behind. I literally feel numb and despondent, when you are emotionally detatched your life only seems to consist of mere robotic functions and tend to lose interest in the world around you.

    Reminds me of separate times when I was 18, 19 and 20 and turned up at the police station and asked them to put me in prison because I couldn't cope with the freedom of having to make choices in life. Christ, the thought of returning to those days after making so much progress since then.

    Anyways, I ought to try and get some sleep.

  108. Paul

    people have to understand what they are targetting. There lies the rub.

    Global economy concentrates wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Much of this wealth is not generated from what we traditionally call work.

    It comes simply from ownership - ownership of property, of land, of intellectual property rights.

    The big insurance companies operate on a profit well above cost system as do banks.

    Since the start of the industrial revolution the working week has gradually reduced - it is increasing again with pay per hour decreasing. We could maintain production levels by reducing hours - job sharing. This would increase employment costs but as more people had more money to spend theoretically production could increase.

    Employers would whinge at higher costs - large pool of unemployed keep wages low and working hours long. Unpaid overtime reduces costs while keeping people out of work. This suits employers.

    There will be unrest at some point, unco-ordinated demos and riots with no coherent plan or aim will be easily put down, condemned in the press and lead to harsher policing.

    Where is the coherence - the plan or even the identified target.

    Some of us are trying in different ways to oppose certain measures - but we are not tackling the cause - symptoms we may alleviate slightly but the causative factors will remain untouched.

    We need more than a theory here - the problems we understand. The solution is another matter.

  109. @shrefig; feel free to let rip whenever you like on this site. I welcome your comments. Keep on commenting!

  110. Ooops sorry "Sherfig" not "shrefig"...sorry about that but since I get a bit pedantic about spelling I have to call myself when I fuck up!