28 April 2010


Captain William Bligh and 18 sailors were set adrift from the HMS Bounty in 1789.  The USSR annexed Azerbaijan in 1920.  Australia's worst mass murder happened in 1996 when a gunman in Port Arthur, Tasmania, killed 35 people and injured 21 others.

Born today:  Lionel Barrymore (1878-1954), Kurt Gödel (1906-1978), Oskar Schindler (1908-1974), Feruccio Lamborghini (1916-1993), Alistair MacLean (1922-1987), Blossom Dearie (1926-2009), Harper Lee (1926), Ann-Margaret (1941), Terry Pratchett (1948), Bruno Kirby (1949-2006), Walter Zenga (1960) and Penélope Cruz (1974).

It is National Heroes' Day in Barbados.


  1. My local (Whitechapel) UKIP hopeful stuffed his (cheap and nasty) flyer through my door. The candidate, a corpulent chancer with the face of Chucky, the homicidal ventriloquist's dummy, states that his main concern is to "...defend the City from hostile EU regulation...".

    It almost brings new shades of meaning to the word 'moronic'. Does this nit-wit really imagine that making it easier for the City fatcats to royally fuck things up again is going to play in Whitechapel, one of the most deprived areas in Tower Hamlets, the most deprived borough in the UK? Good luck with that...

    BTW, if you're going to have a picture of a of a Gallardo, why not a pretty one like the Spyder, without that God-awful boy-racer wing on the back and in a colour that isn't that eye-scalding Irn Bru orange; say, black...mind you, I suppose any Lamorghini is a bit boy-racer-ish to start with.

    For a really gorgeous car (apolgies to non-petrol heads), check out Eagle Racing's E-Types

  2. Re: yesterday's comments on the BNP and Marmite it occurs that smearing the BNP with Marmite as opposed to by marmite is well um... :o!

    OMG I really do get my worst ideas early in the morning - Coffee! Now!

  3. micha

    Nice to see you again! The election leaflets are pretty deplorable, much like the candidates / party policies, across the board.

    Love, love, love the E types, fab car. But wouldn't turn down a free Lambo of any colour, but I'd prefer an R8 Spyder.


    LOL. Sticky subject that ..

  4. Hi, MsChin...

    You're right, of course: they're all much of a muchness. However, I'm going to vote LibDem for the simple reason that it's the only chance we have of getting desperately needed electoral reform. I voted Labour all my life until the criminal folly of Iraq.

    Now, my revulsion for the party of Blair, Brown and Mandelson is visceral. As for Pie-Face Cameron and his party of dolts, crypto-fascists and fanatics--I'd rather drink a bucket full of cold vomit than vote Tory. So basically, this election's a no-brainer for me.

    Here's a bit of auto-porn for you...mouth-watering, no?

  5. misharialadwani,

    the press officer for UKIP is Tim Worstall who sometimes writes articles on CiF.

    He's a neo-liberal extraordinaire who whilst campaigning for a UK outside of the EU, doesn't actually live in the UK. He lives in Portugal. An EU country.

    UKIP are the Waitrose BNP. For those who prefer their bigotry without the riff raff and preferably with a glass of chateau lafite.

  6. "He's a neo-liberal extraordinaire who whilst campaigning for a UK outside of the EU, doesn't actually live in the UK. He lives in Portugal."

    Deary me....

  7. Micha

    A joy to behold, definitely. Once actually asked my family if I could sell our home & buy an E type instead.


    Another anti-EU plank with property abroad. I like the idea of a 'Waitrose BNP' though.

  8. Your Grace, I've noticed this Worstall clown over at CiF and assumed (not actually being interested enough to check) that he was your bog-standard unregenerate Tory, Friedmanite neo-liberal dimwit. Thanks for clearing that up. The local UKIP clown is called Wayne Lochner and he really is repellent.

    I like your 'UKIP are the Waitrose BNP' formulation: pithy and almost certainly correct.

  9. I think Micha put the Waitrose point better than I did!

  10. Your Grace - Worstall's UKIP? Never knew that - have only ever seen him BTL - but that would seem to explain the chippy self-righteousness that so often peravdes his posts...

    First time I heard Lord Pearson interviewed, he was asked by a caller what he thought would happen to UK citizens living in the EU, and he seemed to think that having left the Union, causing utter chaos, and removing all rights of freedom of movement from citizens of other EU countries, those other countires would cheerfully allow Britain and Brits to do exactly what they want so it wouldn't make any difference. Man seems to think he's running the Raj, or something. Barking.

    Anne - can't wait to see what gets thrown at him when he goes to court today...

  11. Available from Guardian books with free P&P - The RAF Handbook.

    This is what cuts will do to our armed forces? Just get the manual down, Wing Commander, there's a section for 'ground support overflight (sandy)' after 'how to change the oil' and 'pimp your hurricane'...

  12. Truly ace - bunch of young people talking on Today just now about the problems facing them. Respect to them.

    Especially this:
    R4: Are you going to vote?

    Lad: No. They all say the same thing, promise change, and nothing changes.

  13. Ah! My personal and local bete noire, Caroline Lucas, is just about to spend an hour taking calls on Radio 5. This should be interesting.

  14. PB he'll be lucky if its only Marmite!

  15. Mmmm Lamborghinis..............

    (so sue me, I'm an ecologist AND a petrol head, we all have our guilty pleasures!)

    Loving the "what to post UKIP" suggestions on yesterday's thread, in case anyone has any spare horse shit/roofers lead/anthrax lying around:

    UK Independence Party,
    PO Box 408,
    Newton Abbot,
    TQ12 9BG

  16. anne - apparently it was 'life-threatening darts and other missiles' last time. although a search for news items suggests a) that it was 'a dart' rather than 'darts' and b) coverage is limited to certain websites...nothing on the bbc that I can see.

    interestingly, 'suggested searches' brought up includes "nick griffin eggs", which takes you through to some rather satisfying youtube links...

  17. I wonder if there are any size/weight limitations on what can sent 'freepost' because if not...

    Start sending them your rubbish: literally. Forget the bins, just slap an address label on your bin-liners full of potato-peelings, fish-heads, ashtray-contents etc and send them to UKIP. Because they're worth it...

  18. Philippa,

    I had a rather heated debate with Mr Worstall (can't for the life of me remember what thread, I'll try and look it up) when I pointed out the abject hypocrisy of being in a position (press officer) trying to influence the voters of a particular country whilst not living in said country. Doubly so when said party has a seperatist agenda.

    I drew Mr Worstall's attention to a speech on the UKIP website where Nigel Farage quite clearly stated he wanted curbs on EU citizens coming to the UK and asked whether or not his position is not tenuous in the least in that he himself has taken advantage of the EU freedom of movement laws whilst promoting a party which wants to curb this.

    Of course he denied hypocrisy, saying he was free to do what he wanted etc etc.

    Never, ever, ever underestimate the amoral hypocrisy of the neo-liberal right.

  19. Morning folks. Sorry for not coming back yesterday afternoon/evening like I said. I was tired and fell asleep and when I woke up it wasn't worth the trudge into the city centre.

    Other than that, the red flag is flying from Glasgow city chambers! Is it a special day today?

  20. your grace - aye, they've got an economic adviser who's in france, i think, and someone's married to a non-EU woman - the rationalisation from pearson just hopeless. not just blinkered, i mean, but displaying a complete ignorance of what leaving the EU would actually mean.

    he cheerfully spoke of the relationship with the EU after leaving being "like America's" - I may have detailed the various visa requirements and restrictions that involves before. utterly oblivious...

  21. NapK

    Hi there. Re: the red flag - International Workers Memorial Day

  22. Forgot the question mark - IWM Day?

  23. I want to see the UK leave the EU in the way that James Blish envisaged in his Cities In Flight novels. We literally take off, the whole country, and go wandering around the galaxy having all sorts of groovy adventures along the way. Anything less is just empty posturing...

  24. Mish,

    I'm tempted to post them their flyer, the contents of the cat's litter tray and a note saying "stop putting your shit through my letter box and I'll stop putting mine through yours...."

  25. I just noticed on WADYYA, that Edwin made reference to looneyfromcatford being banned?

    How on earth did that happen?

  26. I'm not gonna be around long. I will go in an hour. I have to post off my postal vote, go to the job centre, and buy a lap top. Hopefully I will manage to survive the day without going crazy..

  27. Nap,

    Stave off the going crazy by making people think you are crazy:

    Smile at random strangers in the street, they'll either smile back (it's always nice to be smiled at, for both of you) or look at you like you're weird, but then they're just a miserable so and so and you'll never see them again anyway!

    If you're really shy stick to much, much older people: unlikely to think you're flirting and more likely to return the smile!

  28. Dot.

    I try my best. Today at least, I will be buying my new laptop. If I can get the wireless set up at least that will be better, although my physical surroundings are still not great.

    I try and live. But it just seems that some people are superhumans, they just manage to live and get on with their lives thorugh some kind of inner volition as if confidence was imbibed in their mothers' breast milk. I have never had this drive, or understanding of it. I just get carried along in life like driftwood on the tide.

  29. I inquired about looney a couple of times earlier this month. He doesn't appear to be banned, at least his profile was still active when I asked, but there's no sign of him and Jessica claimed to know nothing of a banning.

  30. Nap,

    If it helps at least some (the majority IMHO) of those people are pretending: I remember talking to an old school friend a few years ago, I mentioned those people, specifically one who was at our school, my friend informed me she'd always put me in that category, I was speechless!

  31. Blimey, lots of posts and it's only quarter to eleven. has everyone started getting up with the sparrows or something.
    Re yesterday's and today's' discussion on psychology: at the risk of saying the predictable, psychology is both helpful and hindering,good and bad,because it's no one thing. There are so many competing (and clashing) schools of thought,modalities, therapy models,approaches etc. Try sitting in a room with several psychologists, all from differing outlooks and try and design a service (as I have done in the past). All terribly civilised, with an inordinate amount of chin-stroking, but agreement simply can't be reached, and in that respect it's very akin to philosophy: some things are irreconcilable. There is a model of psychology out there for everyone, into which they can buy, but it isn't going to be the same one for everyone, plus of course the model which you like/agree with the most mightn't be the one that 'works' best for you (but there again, who's to be the judge of that..?)

  32. Anyway all the best. Maybe I will be back tonight, maybe tomorrow.

    LordS. Looney did not get banned. Maybe he just got bored of cif. Although most posters say their goodbyes first.

  33. Thanks dot.

  34. @Napoleon

    As I mentioned before, what you say sounds exactly like me in my early 20s, or my daughter and her more thoughtful young friends today. It's not just you, and it's not weird, it's just the way it is. Many of those 'superhumans' will just be putting up a front, as you would find if you got to know them well enough. And driftwood comes to a safe shore in the end, I promise you.

  35. Hi all, sorry, I nodded off last night after posting! Will get back to the subject later, but Pen - you make some valid points; Leni posted something very interesting that requires more thought, and Alisdair has added another dimension....

  36. Nap,

    You're welcome, and I'd add that sometimes I wonder: if you pretend (even to yourself) that you're one of "those people", is it one of the few things in life that you can achieve by pretending it's true?

    (although I'd clarify that I haven't managed it!)

  37. Hi guys,

    Re psychology it kinda depends, sure there are competing (well often just co-existing) schools and yeah I have come across them like duh.

    But that just shows the youthfulness of psych as a science (psychology has a long past but a short history). It is a bit of a cop out to say there is a psychology for everyone. Would one accept the same statement regarding medicine? Physics? Biology?

    But all are lay psychologists with their own ideas etc (what's an idea?).

    My own relationship with psychology is problematic (snigger) but I won't just have it dissed from a position of ignorance.

    Oh and NapK I would be careful of Dot's advice, if you simulate madness too well you can be mistaken and taken for actually being mad. Believe me I know that all too well.

  38. Morning all

    Fast cars and cat poo, UKIP, psych and sanity, redflag and Caroline Lucas. Where to start.

    The UKIP lordling - has he lived in a box all his life ? He seems to have a poor grasp on reality.

    We have had no election material whatsoever - Labour must be expecting to clear the board again here. Did you see the article telling us that political activism makes you feel happier - Psychologists have proved it apparently.

  39. Leni

    "Fast cars and cat poo, UKIP, psych and sanity, redflag and Caroline Lucas."

    Is it just me or does this sound like a very strange song lyric?

  40. Morning all,

    13th Duke/philippa

    Things make a lot more sense now.

    I wondered why Tim Worstel Dummidge was such a twat, and how he could have got his 'C', but I get it now.
    I mostly locked horns with him on Latin American threads, where he usually adopted a MAM like position on most things.

    Also, an old 'friend' of mines father stood as a candidate for UKIP, despite being an immigrant himself.
    (to be fair to him, he was mostly quite liberal, and intelligent...)

  41. Dott
    Take out the Caroline and we have a 17 syllable Haiku. UT is creative today - every day in fact - we range across so many subjects and yet manage to hang together.

    Currently a jackdaw is eyeballing me through the window. Cheeky thing.

  42. Aluf Benn on Tel Aviv - Cif. Think this must be a wind up article. Watch it fly.

  43. Anyone run into this Blumfield bigot who's posting on the El-Sayed thread before?

  44. A friend's just informed me that:

    "Heston Blumenthal fried leeches that had gorged on goose blood last night for one of his Huysman’esque meals..."

    I like Heston and I'm intrigued by his Handbook-of-Organic-Chemistry-meets-The-Michelin-Guide recipes but leeches engorged on goose blood is where we part company, I'm afraid. Leeches? Dear God...

  45. misha
    Leeches - shudder. I suppose they contain protein. I hope they were not attached to gorge on living geese.

    Huysman would make an interesting thread - perhaps reveal a few inner yearnings.

  46. Further to leeches - way back when the Royal Zoological Society had a series of dinner parties at which they served examples of all animals in their possession. Well - nearly all. I don't remember any grilled giraffe.

  47. Hi everyone, feeling much better today, finally some sleep and I think the anti depressants are kicking in.

    With reference to talking therapy I am going to give it another go getting some CBT from my GP (not much chance but you don't get if you don't keep asking), I have had counselling from the NHS and either I have been unlucky and got the three worst cousellors in the world or the standard isn't very high.

    I hate taking anti depressants but sometimes I need the initial lift just to get myself out of the house.

    Oh I got an email from someone at Cif saying I would be welcome back after a cooling off period but I am not sure if I want to bother.

  48. Jenni

    Glad you're feeling better.

    Keep your options open with Cif - see how you feel about it later.

  49. Leni, I think they must have been attached to living geese. I could be wrong but I have the impression that leeches don't feed on dead animals.

    "There's a real sense with the Conservatives that in this 'big society' we just all walk around holding hands and walk into the sea singing Hare Krishna, and that's the way to tackle these problems, versus what the police want." --Alan Johnson, today

    I detest the Tories (query: is singing Hare Krishna in the Tory manifesto?) but Johnson is the latest in a long line of Labour Hom Secs., every one of whom has been worse than Michael Howard at his most sinister. "...versus what the police want...", indeed.

    If the idiot Johnson is so concerned with what the police want, why doesn't he press for the reform to drug laws that the Ass. of Police Chiefs has been advising for years? No, he'd rather sack scientists who tell him unpalatable truths. Cretin.

  50. Mish
    Not sure what 'the police want ' means. Presumably a sacrifice demanding god to which we feed the unruly and unrepentant - along with the opposition.

  51. The Natasha Walters thread is depressing. I'm going for a nap!

    Speak later!

  52. Leni,

    Eye balling you or eye balling its own reflection?

  53. When are we going to hear any practical, workable ideas from politicians ?

    By the time we get the Big society and Big gvt. into the Big tent it's going to be so overcrowded there will be little room for movement - backwards or forward.

    They'll all be happy then - the status quo will be retained with most of us sitting outside in the rain.

    Still - get them all in one tent and we can at least P*ss on them.

  54. Dott

    Not sure - it often comes - has that calculating look about it - so common with the corvids. Perhaps it just admiring itself.

    I'll put a mirror there and see how it reacts.

  55. Leni,

    Do, I'd be interested in its reaction!

  56. Leni, I suspect he means the police want to be able to crack heads, hold people without charge forever and shoot Brazilian electricians without the time-wasting encumbrance of public inquiries and such-like democratic nonsense.

    I've just had a leaflet from some mob calling themselves The English Democrats.

    The shaven-headed candidate glowers at me from the cover and the text reads like BNP-lite. "England for the English", "We will crack down on political correctness", etc, etc. (love that 'crack down on PC')

    The best bit is their phone line. Ring these sad-sack fuckers and it will, according to the small print, cost you £1.50 a minute from a BT line. Is this a joke or are they really that stupid?

  57. Just recieved bundle of election leaflets - what a waste of paper.

    We have 6 candidates - this means Lab will win again.

  58. "Not sure what 'the police want ' means."

    I found that an interesting one too. The police have shown themselves to be violent, controlling thugs who batter and "kettle" the public exercising their right to protest.

    What they want is of course more tools of power and control, tasers, guns, CCTV, etc. Its just astonishing that it is accepted now in our political discourse that the police should naturally be given anything they want, as if they are some sort of independent arbiter of the right way to enforce the law.

    They have plenty of murderous thugs in their midsts and they close ranks in a flash to protect them. Far from "policing the police", whats important now is giving them everything they want it seems. Police state indeed.

  59. ...and they're talking about Alan Johnson as one of the leading candidates to replace Brown.

  60. Thaum,

    possibly, but my money's on that grotesque Blair clone, Milliband (the one that looks slightly less like a block of wood with teeth)!!

  61. James

    There is something about both Millibands which is not quite right.

  62. Absolutely Leni.

    I've said before that

    a) I don't think I've ever seen the older one(?) in the same room as Blair, which, you know, worries me a bit...., and

    b) They scare the bejeezus out of me in the same way that the dead eyed alien clone/bodysnatcher types in bad B movies do......

    For certain one of them will be the 'leader' at some point though...


  63. ...but don't you think we've punished them enough for Iraq? (retches violently).

    Millivanilliblands--The Stepford Candidates.

  64. misharialadwani,


    Haha - Brilliant!!

  65. Haha indeed!

    I can't think of a single credible Labour leader at the mo.

  66. James, when I called him (David) that on CiF a few months ago (in addition to some other rather unflattering remarks) my comment was deleted...

    There is, as Leni said, something 'not quite right' about the pair of them, an indefinable creepy, unhealthy, almost alien out-of-synchness about them.

    They remind me a bit of the character Jeff Bridges played in an old film, Starman. Aliens trying to pass as human.

    Personally, I think we should attack them with hydrogen bombs before their ghastly plan (whatever it is) comes to fruition. You can't be too thorough when it comes to destroying pod-people.

  67. misharialadwani,

    Yeah, pointing out how goddam awful/potentially brain eatingly evil the new labour twonks are, tends not to go down too well at plastic socialists HQ.

    And, I see what you're saying, but Jeff Bridges was quite benign in Starman, so they remind me more of something a bit creepier, like one of the 'vomit weird poison stuff into the water supply' ones from the Nicole Kidman/Daniel Craig 'Invasion' film a few years back.

    (If you look carefully at one of the Milipedes (Ed!?), he often has a bit of it still dribbling down his chin!!)

  68. This comment has been removed by the author.

  69. Regarding the Millibands and the faceless, unnerving nature of the new labour breed.

    Here's previously unseen video footage of the run up to the 1994 Labour conference when clause 4 was mysteriously dropped.

    It clears everything up.

  70. Jennifer - I try not to be too enthusiastic in recommending CBT as I know that it can't be a one-size-fits-all approach, but some of the things you've said about low self-esteem sound very familiar to me, and that was one thing (among many...) that was addressed, I felt very successfully, by CBT. Obviously things do depend a lot on the therapist, but if you are minded to give it another go, I say good for you and good luck. Hope it helps you.

  71. Re attribution error etc

    It's difficult guys, I could give a quick outline of attribution theory for instance (and it is quite relevant to CBT for instance) but who will read it? Not many and I'll get asked the same stuff as soon as the thread moves on.

    Attribution is basic stuff and covered in most intro social psychology texts. All people should know about the formal theory as it provides a general understanding. But as we are all lay psychologists (again part of the subject matter of attribution theory) no one can be that bothered.

    One basic error in human attribution is that personality is over attributed to. People think people (including themselves although less so) are the main causes. Thus it is much easier to say someone is out of work because they are lazy than because of the economic system.

    Lots of attribution processes re self and other. Covers things like person perception and inference. Depressed people attribute failure tom stable global internal causes and success to external unstable local ones. By and large 'normal' people claim greater autonomy and control over things than is true.

    Raises issues of introspection (access to mental states) and also social levels of explanation.

    Understanding human social and cognitive processes is not just about understanding others but about understanding and changing self. To the extent that the psychology is valid it provides both a blueprint and a toolkit for constructing one's own self more efficiently and effectively.

  72. Bloody hell - going on that open thread was a mistake - not because of any viciousness, but just, well, 'trigger' issues...

    was planning a comfy evening in,but think it probably best to go out - won't be able to resist checking on it every five minutes if I stay here.

    grrrr. impending visit of parents and need to face future is not having a great effect on me. still, at least i know that's what it is (plus, according to calendar, PMT). So that's good, I suppose. Doesn't change anything, though.

    grrrr. this sucks. rambling now. will be back later to give my view on the milibbands. that will require some preparation...

  73. Have you seen Brown's latest catastrophe ? This one will run ---- and run.


  74. @AlisdairCameron

    Was interested in your 10.54am post.It reminded me of
    an edition of 'After Dark' an all-night discussion
    group on C4 several years ago.For the topic up for
    discussion that edition was the 'therapy industry'.
    It was extremely civilized to begin with but as the
    night wore on the representatives from the various
    disciplines became ever more agitated with each other.
    Degenerated into a 'my toys better than your toy'
    farce and it became clear that many of them were
    actually stark raving bonkers.And as an idealistic
    social sciences graduate left me with some serious
    concerns at the havoc they could potentially wreak
    on the lives of the people they were supposed to be

    The 'therapy industry' in this country is so unregulated anyone can set themselves up as a therapist.Rule of thumb is never see therapists
    who advertise their services.And if you can get a
    referral to an NHS therapist who sadly are few and far between but usually operate under strict time limits with their patients so don,t encourage over dependancy.I shudder at the number of private sector therapists who may encourage dependancy because they
    see their vulnerable and needy patients as 'easy money'.

  75. pen - interesting - after a post yesterday, I thought some of the things said about attribution theory sounded familiar from my experiences of CBT. Whereas somone on another thread seemed to have the theory of CBT backwards (thought it said thought preceded feeling, whereas it was explained to mme as addressing the thoughts that follow from feelings).

    I'd read it. ANyway. off now.


  76. Paul

    Social workers models - Psch and therapist - danger of both creaing vicious circle of dependency .

    Who needs whom the most ? Closed self perpetuating systems - big subject.

    Hi Pen

  77. Afternoon all. Got a bit of time on the lad's puter. still not got the netbook sorted. Meh.

    Just been reading back a bit - UKIP are a complete joke. They clearly haven't thought out what we will do when all our mainland Europe ex-pats lose their right of residence on the Costa Del Sol or the Dordogne. Clound bloody cuckoo land as always.

    I missed the bit about Griffin and marmite - what wss that all about?

    And I wonder if Brown is actually trying to lose the election now because he just doesn't want the job any more but won't dare tell anyone? Going round calling voters "bigotted" is not the best way ever to garner support...

  78. @BB- you do realize that cyber search parties have
    been sent out to look for you.Hope you,re OK.

  79. Thoughts and feelings aren't so different and this illustrates the problem you have already pretheorised and assigned characteristics to 'feelings' and 'thoughts'.

    Conventional feeling (not just sensory proprioception) involves both arousal levels and hormonal and neuro stuff but also a cognitive process of categorising the state (this is often essentailly an attributional process tho carried out aotomatically).

    Beliefs and behaviours (and again beliefs and thought are actually behaviours) are linked dynamically and one can try and shift either through the other. It' s more a case of efficiency. Often depressed people show the pattern of A that I mentioned and if one can change that one may shift behaviour. But too often it is all too superficial and nt grounded in good basic cog soc psych. It also acts to psychologise and individualise a social problem and may just put people back into the same context as produced whatever in the first case.

  80. LOL Paul!

    My internet world has been shattered by the fact that I have to scrounge time on my son's or husband's puter, neither of which are a scratch on being able to lie on the sofa, watch the telly, drink a beer and comment! So that is why I have been awol. And I've been missing you all too x

  81. Leni

    No social system is fully closed, all can be subverted

  82. @Leni
    You,re absolutely right it is a big subject.Massive
    potential for two way abuse in the psyche/patient relationship as well.Can,t for the life of me
    understand why private sector therapists in particular
    don,t face much tighter regulation.

  83. I love spring.

    Just driven home from work through the countryside: fruit trees in blossom, lambs playing, rape coming into full flower....

    For all the whingeing I do sometimes, it's good to remember that I am bloody lucky and could be living in far, far worse places.

  84. Pen

    All can be subverted - agreed. I was posing a question rather than making a statement.

    People need to understand they are not locked into a closed system from which there is no escape.

  85. Thauma

    it has been one of those days when it is difficult to imagine that there is any disharmony anywhere - it all feels just right - all one.

  86. Leni - I know, I feel like hugging a butterfly or something.

    Back to the 'talking cure' bit. From speaking with friends and from reading here and on Cif, it's apparent that *some* therapies help *some* people. But, as someone pointed out upthread, there's a Babel of ideas about the best approach and it's very hit and miss. I have known one or two people who have been actively damaged by psychiatrists/psychologists and that's what set me off yesterday.

    I've seen astrology help some people more than therapy.

    And to be fair, I've also seen some people helped quite a bit.

    The term "social sciences" is annoying too, as anything that cannot present unified, falsifiable theories is clearly not a science.

    Now, some psychologically-based analyses of social problems are quite interesting: I've heard a very convincing hypothesis that mental health problems rise with industrialisation, but confirmation bias may well play a part in my acceptance of that.

  87. This comment has been removed by the author.

  88. @ pen, just for clarity, I wasn't quite saying that there is branch of psychology for everyone individually (though of course everyone has their own psychopathology), more that there are sufficient schools and branches for more or less everyone to be able to find one with which they have some affinity, and which seems to 'chime' better than others. Whether that branch or school is the most beneficial one for that individual (and quite how and who determines benefit, plus the likelihood of variation over time) is another matter of course.
    personally I'm inclined to agree with you about over-attribution to individuals, and prefer greater consideration be given to environmental and community psychology (the latter being an especially interesting and growing field)

  89. Evening all

    Haven,t had time to read the whole of todays thread
    so apologies if i,m repeating what,s already been

    WTF is wrong with Gordon Brown calling an old lady a
    bigot when she raised a valid point.Namely that it,s
    all very well talking tough about benefit cuts for
    the unemployed BUT hasn,t the mass immigration policy
    followed by successive New Labour governments made it harder for many unemployed Black,White and Asian people to find jobs.What a wanker!

  90. Just got an e-mail from Gordon about his 'gaffe'Here it is:


    As you may know, I have apologised to Mrs Duffy for remarks I made in the back of the car after meeting her on the campaign trail in Rochdale today. I would also like to apologise to you.

    I know how hard you all work to fight for me and the Labour Party, and to ensure we get our case over to the public. So when the mistake I made today has so dominated the news, doubtless with some impact on your own campaigning activities, I want you to know I doubly appreciate the efforts you make.

    Many of you know me personally. You know I have strengths as well as weaknesses. We all do. You also know that sometimes we say and do things we regret. I profoundly regret what I said this morning.

    I am under no illusions as to how much scorn some in the media will want to heap upon me in the days ahead.

    But you, like I, know what is at stake in the days ahead and so we must redouble our campaigning efforts to stop Britain returning to a Tory Party that would do so much damage to our economy, our society and our schools and NHS, not least in places like Rochdale.

    The worst thing about today is the hurt I caused to Mrs Duffy, the kind of person I came into politics to serve. It is those people I will have in my mind as I look ahead to the rest of the campaign.

    You will have seen me in one context on the TV today. I hope tomorrow you see once more someone not just proud to be your leader, but also someone who understands the economic challenges we face, how to meet them, and how that improves the lives of ordinary families all around Britain.



    Mind you I have to admit I am much more disgusted by the media who are presently encamped outside that poor woman's house!

  91. Hi Anne

    Obviously the media are going to have a feeding frenzy
    over this.But what an insult to the poor woman.In my
    earlier post i meant to say unemployed Black,White
    and Asian BRITISH people.Because whilst i might be
    wrong i doubt the PM would have said the same about
    a Black British woman who expressed a similar view as that old lady did.And there are plenty of Black and Asian British people who feel the same about New Labours Immigration policies as the White majority.

    OK we all make mistakes but that was a clanger.Makes
    you wonder what else he really thinks.Although in
    all fairness that applies to politicians from all
    parties.Hope you,re well.

  92. Let's face it, everyone has a moment when they say something about someone that shouldn't be said. Most people try and make sure there isn't a mic stuck to their tie when they are doing it, though.

    And yes, you are entirely right about the media vultures. Poor woman.

  93. Paul

    Good old flexible workforce - bring in women on part-time salaries, immigrants, anything you like to make sure that Capital squeezes the max profit out of the production process... gits.

    Having said that, it is also true that the immigration debate has given the opportunity to a lot of narrow-minded bigots and racists to have a public rant about their prejudices under the thin veil of "reasonable debate" as any of the immigration threads will tell you.

    I don't know what has happened to her because I haven't seen her post in a while, but there was a UKIP supporter called monnie who once actually said in a post that she didn't like going shopping to the nearest big town any more because there were too many brown faces, or some such nonsense. So immigrants to her also included people who were second and third generation.

  94. From the small video clip I've seen, I'm not sure whether or not the accusation of 'bigot' is justified or not. It's certainly not bigoted to question immigration policy, but it's equally certain that some people are bigots.

    As someone said on one of the multiple threads on Cif today, the chief problem is not the accusation of bigotry but the expectation that anyone caught on camera with the PM would be screened beforehand. Reeks of Bush.

    While there is plenty of criticism to be laid at Brown's door (failure to regulate the banks, and failure to rein in the bonus culture when he had a chance to do so; failure to deplore the unjust wars, etc.), I think he's mostly inherited his problems from the truly evil bastard Blair. In fact, I've felt a bit sorry for him ever since he took office and this bit of Sky eavesdropping is just the latest.

    This does not mean that I would consider voting for New Labour (or, obviously, the Tories).

  95. The lady in question is now being 'represented' by a PR firm. Wonder which one ?

  96. Leni - most undoubtedly one with ties to the Tories, which is oh-so-ironic given the Tories' ties with the far right in Europe.

  97. thauma

    i didn't hear all Mrs. Duffy's comments but she obviously felt she had a valid point.

    The failure to discuss immigration - across parties - in a reasonable and rational way is the real problem.

  98. @Bb-obviously understand about the racists,bigots
    etc but once you go down the road of chucking the
    labels around like confetti it actually demeans the
    term-ie can lessen the impact when applied to the real

    btw Always knew monnie was pretty conservative but
    always got on with her.If what you say is true-and
    i,ve got no reason to doubt it-she'll have a shock
    if i ever decide to reveal myself over there.
    Reminded of the Little Britain sketch with the old
    lady who vomits when she realizes Black hands have
    prepared her food etc.Gawd blimey she,ll never
    'speak' to me again.And she,ll be pressing the abuse
    button at my every utterance!!!!

  99. Paul - I have likened her to that Little Britain woman on more than one occasion over on Cif. She does kinda come across that way. God knows what she would do if her daughter brought a black boyfriend home...

  100. And yes, you are right that terms like racist and bigot should not just be bandied about for anyone who talks about immigration. But you get to know the ones who want a genuine debate and the ones who are just... well... racists and bigots. :o)

  101. Gonna love you and leave you guys and gals. Too much strain on the neck sat at this desk with its dodgy chair.

    Nighty night xx

  102. Leni - yes. I didn't hear enough of the lady's comments either to know whether she is just concerned about immigration or whether she is an actual bigot.

    I did hear that she said something like, "them eastern European people - where do they all come from?", which sounds pretty silly as well as bigoted on the face of it, but then again she's just an ordinary person who was facing the PM and national television cameras and I can imagine that that would disconcert one a bit.

    The press camping out on her is just wrong too.

  103. BB, nice to see you and hoping the deskbound PCs aren't causing you too much trouble!

  104. Thauma

    Many people do not understand how Eu works - not surprising really as all we ever hear are very polarised - and often meaningless - points of view.

    Add to this the fact that very often we have poor people moving into areas with many unemployed people you have a recipe for confrontation. So many of the northern post industrial towns have high levels of unemployment, poor housing and overstretched services immigration is an easy button to push.


    i have the misfortune to know a woman - a counsellor actually - who is so determined not to appear racist that she regularly says 'I never even notice the colour of someones skin @ She doesn't mean she doesn't judge by it she actually means she doesn't see it. We all, apparently, look the same.

    I asked her once the colour of my eyes - without looking at me she replied instantly 'blue'.

    She is one of the most bigotted people I know - not a very good counsellor either.

  105. Leni, indeed. High levels of immigration of blue-collar workers pushes down the wages and employability of those already there.

    In fact, the interesting bit is that it's no longer just the blue-collar workers who are facing that sort of pressure: it's starting to permeate into the white-collar jobs too, as is out-sourcing.

    White-collar jobs are generally easier to outsource than blue-collar ones.

    Off to bed before I start babbling too much nonsense that I'll have to retract later. Night all. x

  106. This comment has been removed by the author.

  107. MAM's being particularly offensive about people murdered by the police.The police did nothing wrong - apparently Blair Peach, Jean Charles de memezes and Ian Tomlinson deserved what they got.

    After all Blair Peach was an SWP 'nutter', de Menezes was a foreigner and Tomlinson was trying to get home - all capital offences apparently wait a minute...

    The Ciffer of the year has excelled himself again!

  108. Alisdair, have you been to Byker recently? They've turned the Police Station into a sort of miniature "green zone" like fortress with heavy duty 10' high steel fencing and gates.
    "ominous" is the word that springs to mind!

  109. Anne

    i saw that. I conclude that MaM is employed by Cif to wind up everyone else - get more hits.

    I try to imagine Mam's world if he really believes all the rubbish he posts - so much of it is just untrue.

    I rather enjoyed his constant repition of ' trots'

  110. chekhov

    I remember the good old days when the bobbies were there to protect the people - now they attack the people and consequently have to be protected against the people.

  111. @Anne
    Iread MAM,s rants on the Blair Peach thread and to be
    honest taking him on would be like banging my head
    against a brick rule.Can,t be bothered as it won,t
    achieve anything.I doubt MAM ever considers he could
    be wrong about anything at anytime.He,ll get his
    come uppance one day mind.No-ones invincible.

  112. This comment has been removed by the author.

  113. Just removed cloned post. Everything's making me grumpy today. Grr.

  114. What a bloody farce. Talk about the lunatics taking over the asylum. The Monty Python Team couldn't have made this up. All we need now is some men in white coats to arrive with a jacket that buckles round the back and the Benny Hill soundtrack.
    Laugh? I didn't know I was going yo have this much fun when rolled out of bed this morning!

  115. Time was this place was boring.

    Now it's anaesthetic.

  116. My take on the Brown gaffe:

    from Anne's post

    The worst thing about today is the hurt I caused to Mrs Duffy, the kind of person I came into politics to serve. It is those people I will have in my mind as I look ahead to the rest of the campaign.

    The worst thing is that it looks to me as if that poor woman may well be a few degrees towards the bigoted side.

    shaz: Kudos to you for your self-control. I read that as well earlier and refrained from commenting, just thought what a prat a certain commenter of the year is.

  117. medve - the other thing that stopped me was the thought of MaM sitting chortling over my inept efforts to prove him wrong...

    Must say I did wonder about the degree of 'truth hurts' in the whole bigot kerfuffle.

  118. Evening Shaz and medve

    I suppose about now those at Guardian towers will be
    beginning to think of MAMS replacement.Sadly everyone
    from UT will have been automatically eliminated so my
    money is on the lovely Melissa Darley who i think
    will make an admirable commentator of the year for
    2011.And yes i am a genuine fan of her/him whoever
    s/he may be.

  119. Hi Paul - I have a lot of respect for both Melissa & Mavis - despite (or maybe because of ) their mordant wit and utter skill at consistently getting their biggest critics to engage with them. And bloody good posts on any thread they comment on.

  120. BTW: I've thrown in the towel on CIF. They are obviously expecting me to go back with a grovelling apology, appealing for a reprieve. Well they can go and fuck themselves. I stuck with CIF from the outset and gave it the benfit of the doubt but the Mods have ruined it. Pity really but I suppose it was inevitable since the whole thing is run by Oxbridge fuckwits who haven't got a clue what it's like trying to survive at the "coal face"

  121. chekhov - sorry, am still catching up - have you been banned? What for?

  122. Chekov

    Surely they haven't banned you ?

    We will have to work the pattern - if there is one - behind the cull.

  123. shaz: I have managed to shoot MAM down in flames on one occasion, but alas i'm not an ace yet. I would have thought you were better qualified to carry out that duty for the public good, judging by your posts.

    Paul: Agreed. Me too.

  124. medve: goodness, no - most of my posts are rambling inconsequencies (is that a word?) - and when I get angry I tend to become even more incoherent and fall over my verbal feet.

    Has there been any fallout from the election result? Nothing seems to have appeared on the Graun since Monday.

  125. @ chekhov, glad to see you here. yup, I've seen the station in Byker (walked past it last weekend). Now there are bits of Byker which definitely require policing (have some some friends harassed out from their gaff in Byker, due to racism and/or homophobia)but that station gives off a terrible impression. A presence on the streets matters far more than ludicrously OTT architecture giving the impression that the police can't handle the area.

  126. I haven't been banned "technically". I'm in "pre mod" for calling Lord Adonis to account for his scaremongering article on splitting the left wing vote.
    I didn't contravene their talk policy so there is no reason why I should have to make a grovelling apology to be allowed back in and I don't intend to do so.
    Incidentally, no one seems to have missed me, and there was no collective indignation at my being ostracised, unlike Lord Summerisle who was actually banned.
    However he wasn't banned for his usual reasonably thought out wisdom but for this:
    "Which part of your brain do you need to have removed to become a moderator"
    Anyway, like I said, It's a shame. There was the makings of a sort of on-line community on CIF and they totally fucked it up. Maybe they did it deliberately. Who knows?

  127. shaz: no particular fallout yet, but the signs for the future are very bleak indeed. The Fidesz KDNP alliance won more than two thirds of the seats enabling them to change the constitution at will. KDNP is really a captured party with no hope of getting into parliament by themselves (about 1% support). Fidesz led the government between 1998 and 2002 with these highlights:

    1998 Fidesz declared that they were being bugged and spied on by the previous government. Not true (including court rulings on the matter)
    1998 - 2002 Fidesz ran the parliament with three-weekly sittings instead of the weekly stipulated, arguing that it was the same.
    1998 - 2002 No minutes, no tape recordings, no record of any kind of cabinet meetings at all.
    2000 Fidesz introduced a two year budget, because they wanted to destroy one of their coalition partners.
    2002 after losing the general election in the spring the remainder of the funds for 2002 was spent before the new government could take over.
    During this 2010 election campaign it became clear that Fidesz has several illegal databases of electors including personal details of employment, address, date of birth, voting preference and more.

  128. chekhov: Commiserations. With every reasonable poster pushed out the fuckwit density goes up turning CiF ever more into Compassion is Fucked.

    Good night all.

  129. Leni

    Wonder if they do have a target list?Well that,s
    me for the chopping block then!

  130. I was listening to the radio when the Brown bigot stuff started, and heard the whole thing. And then heard it over and over again, as BBC Radio 5 decided to talk about nothing else for the next three and a half hours.

    My feeling about it was coloured by memories of my adolescence, when I tried to have conversations with my Lancashire Gran and her cronies. Gillian Duffy's talk with Brown was very similar, involving a long litany of complaint with no attempt at all to listen to any responses. Every time Brown tried to answer one whinge, he was talked over with the addition of another. And I'm sure, like my Gran, Ms Duffy would have said to her cronies later: "Well, I gave him a piece of my mind - and he had nothing at all to say," with a triumphant air.

    This technique had me punching the walls, and I expect that Gordon Brown felt much the same. Notice that he said that the whole thing had been dreadful, which to me meant the experience of talking to someone who refused to listen. The immigration thing was just one of the complaints, but it gave Brown something to hang his anger on.

    As for the media attention, it's extraordinary. Even one of the BBC presenters criticised his colleagues for ringing up what he called "her niece's second cousin's hairdresser' to get a comment.

    Anyway, that's what I thought. Hadn't heard a full Lancashire ratbag litany like that for something like 25 years.

  131. Alisdair: like I said "ominous". If the result of this election really does throw up the insanity of our rigged system of voting (which if it happened any where else would be de-cried as a "Banana Republic" type stitch up)I expect a repeat of the Meadowell riots.

  132. @chekhov

    Sadly i think it could be lot more serious than that.
    Some working class communities are like tinderboxes
    which could erupt simultaneously if we get a Tory
    government hellbent on a combination of harsh
    public sector cuts,tougher regimes for benefit
    claimants and heavy handed policing in neighbourhoods
    deemed to be 'problematic'.A toxic combination !

  133. Paul + Chekhov

    Living out in the sticks I have to rely upon news reports about what is going on in the towns and cities. There has been very little in depth coverage of the general mood among people. I can see lots of reasons for disatisfaction which could lead to unrest.

    It is interesting to hear your views - you are in a position to smell the air - feel the atmosphere.

    How many of our politicians understand the mood in the cities?

  134. Paul: I agree, there are a lot of people (not just working class) that are absolutely livid about the way they have been "took to the cleaners" by the banking scam. The tinder box analogy is a good one because if the result of this election flies in the face of what most people (right or left) think of as "democracy" things could really kick off!

  135. People are *still* getting banned from CiF and then coming here ? No way ?!

    It really is pretty desperate when the likes of chekhov are getting fucked over too.

    Anyone seen Private Eye today ?

    Read the stuff about Guardian's business strategy.

    Confused ? You will be... like them.

  136. Leni + Chekhov

    If enough middle class people have been screwed then
    it may help lessen some of the class based restraints
    on British politics but i wouldn,t hold your breath.
    Let,s not forget that Thatcher got away with her
    brutality because the middle classes were compliant
    in her 'vision'.Plus many skilled working class
    people bought into her 'dream' as well.It was the
    unskilled and deskilled that got shafted.And it was
    these shafted communities that fought back -whether
    they be miners fighting for their jobs and communities or inner-city communities who had simply
    had enough of being shat upon.

    My only concern with where we are now is that there
    is absolutely no solidarity in many working classes
    because there are more fault lines now than there
    were in the 80,s.Divide and Rule has so far contained
    many working class communities.It,s only when we can
    learn to put our differences aside and stand together
    that we will really be in a position to drive through
    some real changes.IF any social unrest consists of
    different factions of communities fighting each other
    then it will achieve nothing.

  137. Evening Bitterweed!

    Wheres my man Habib?

  138. Leni: well all bets are off aren't they?
    I was at a regional version of "Question Time" yesterday hosted by Richard Moss and Carol Malia on behalf of the BBC.
    Of course the whole thing is rigged and I never got to ask the two questions I wanted to ask, namely;
    1: Given that we have been effectively held to ransom by the banking system, what measures have been put in place to prevent us being taken to the cleaners all over again?
    2: Why isn't anyone making ID cards an election issue?
    But no: Half an hour of vacuous drivel masquerading as debate with the heavy weights of Nick Davis, Sir Alan Beith and William Hague.
    Nothing more than a stage managed piece of propaganda with some plants in the audience from the BNP the Green Party and UKIP.

  139. PS

    Matt. Yes you. Cock.

    That is all.

  140. Hey Paul
    Listen, I have work tomorrow and have to go.

    We have some tracks to explore I think.

    Try this


    Yeh ! Heh !


  141. Meanwhile, here's Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson


    Howsa yowsa. Surely.

  142. Ok. Back to normal then...


















    Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the kings horses and all the kings men said fuck him he's just an egg

    On the other hand here's some stuff about Santa



  143. Chekhov

    What I really don't understand is *why* the media protect the political establisment - very few hard hitting reports or interviews anywhere.

    The L v R polarisation is defunct - nobody's exploring new thinking , new approaches. We are being slowly consumed by a financial system which is controlling politics - politics as such hardly exists any more - at least not in the sense of involving the people.

    An outburst of rage may focus minds but is more likely to tie the middle classes in to ideas of greater control and police powers than forcing a real debate.

    As Paul points out there is a possibility that working people will turn on each other rather than uniting against inequality and the neglect of communities.

    Who are the leaders ? Local leaders will arise if there are riots but will they be the right ones - with a true vision of the way forward ?

  144. Bitterweed

    You take it easy man.Sleep well.

  145. Leni

    What worries me is that one of the fault lines that
    is dividing some working class communities is that
    between Muslim and non-Muslim.In fact even the BNP
    seems to shifting its poison from that where it attacks anyone who doesn,t have a white skin to one where it is focusing its ire on Muslims.And by some of the cultural attitudes in some Muslim communities combined with political inertia to address them these communities are setting themselves up for scapegoat status.

  146. Paul

    The cultural divisions are not I think as wide or damaging as some would have us believe - though I agree they can be exploited . The fault lies with hard liners on both sides. The Orthodox Jewish communities get along fine, quietly observing custom and tradition, running their Beth Din courts and generally not drawing attention to themselves.

    The Hindus get along fine - despite cultural and religious differences - many still have strong allegiance to home village - enormous amounts of money returned home regularly. Gujarat state is said to be the richest land area on Earth !

    A small minority of Muslim 'community leaders ' - extremist types - are doing a lot of harm. The BNP leaders are power hungry - Griffin is a conceited bufoon who has too much credence with a section of the population. The problem with Griffin is that he can do a lot of harm and hurt a lot of people before he is finally obliterated from the public mind. There is also the worrying crossover between BNP and the English blood and land nationalists.

  147. Leni

    As i said Leni i think the main religious/ethnic
    fault line is between Muslims and non-Muslims.Britains
    Muslim communities are the fastest growing communities
    in the country.And let,s not forget certain facts that
    some exponents of political correctness find
    unpalatable.One of the riots in the northern towns
    a few years ago took place after gangs of Muslim youths attacked a Hindu wedding party.Additionally
    the small Black Caribbean communities in those northern towns tended to side with the White British
    population.So those riots were never simply White
    versus non-White.Race relations in Britain are a lot
    more complicated than some would have us believe.

  148. Leni

    I,m gonna have to go off-line for a while.So i,ll
    say goodnight if you,re gone when i get back.Always
    interesting talking to you but i,ve got stuff i have
    to do.Forgot to ask how your rib is.Hope it,s better.

  149. Hi, Paul, still here, but I like to read up on what I've missed.

    "Fast cars and cat poo, UKIP, psych and sanity, redflag and Caroline Lucas."
    Is it just me or does this sound like a very strange song lyric?

    I think you'll find it's this.

    Just as an aside Jennifer, CBT works much better when you research it fully, yourself, perhaps you have? In that respect I agree with Pen: "To the extent that the psychology is valid it provides both a blueprint and a toolkit for constructing one's own self more efficiently and effectively."

    Oh and far be it from me to describe monnie as the best form of racist - one who doesn't hide.

  150. Paul

    I agree - they are complicated. The immigration issues are complicated. Many second'third generation families of immigrant parents understand that immigration has to be controlled. As Brits they have a right to express these fears but the PC lot get all het up and remind them that they are children of immigrants.

    We have to somehow stop thinking in terms of colour or religion - just address the problems.

    Extremism of any kind, racism and the traditional disadvantages in our society touch everyone . Frankly I would deport any foreign born extremists - whatever their colour or religion. They hurt, and in some cases endanger, everyone, including the people they claim to speak for.

    There has been a merging of black and white youngsters - culturally and in other ways. Intermarriage is common - tho still frowned upon by some from both communities. The white folk are still the majority but this does not automatically give them greater rights. Immigrants contribute to culture and enrich it but it is important that all are governed by and respect the same laws.

    An influx of new people is unsettling - more open dialoge is necessary if we are to avoid misunderstanding and confrontation. I would prefer to see fewer seperate ethnic communities though I understand why immigrants may prefer to live near each other - shared experience, traditions and ccess to shops and places of worship.

  151. The Side Track Scam:

    Illegal immigrants = 1 million. (nowhere near, in reality)
    Benefits from the state = £200 per person, per week (nowhere near, in reality)
    Total cost per year if that was the case and all money was sent overseas: £104 billion.

    Total bank bailout: £850 billion

    Cost of war in Iraq (with minimal forces) during 2010 alone: £18 billion

    Do you see how you're being side-tracked yet?

  152. Oh and while we're at it, benefit fraud last year: £1.1 billion, benefits overpaid last year (including fraud) £3 billion.

  153. @habib

    Have only got a couple of minutes but WTF are you
    saying man?Don,t talk in riddles like Giyus .If
    you think i,m talking bollocks say so and we can
    chat about it when i,ve got more time!!

  154. Paul, just imagine if there were 1 million illegals in this country claiming full benefit. What would be the maximum cost?

    There aren't that many and people are being lead to believe it's a major issue by those who seek power riding on a tide of "bloody immigrants".

    That's all. I merely ask you to look further than what you have absorbed by an inevitably osmotic effect.

  155. @habib

    Ok sorry if this post is rushed-we will probably have
    to have this 'conversation' another time.

    I am not attacking the Islamic faith i am attacking
    certain cultural attitudes in SOME Muslim communities
    that are putting them on a collision course with non-
    Muslim communities.For example the relatively high
    rate of arranged marriages between YOUNG British
    Muslims and spouses from the sub-continent.A significant proportion of spouses from Pakistan for
    instance are first cousins.The very high birth rates
    in low -income Muslim families which are not only
    a drain on the taxpayer because of the high levels
    of unemployment in the Muslim communities-but are
    also putting them in conflict with non-Muslims who
    tend to have smaller families but who PERCEIVE larger
    Muslim Families getting priority for social housing.

    Sorry if this sounds like a BNP rant but the statistics bear it out.Muslims households in Britain
    are the poorest most overcrowded households in Brtain.
    They have the highest proportions of men either in low
    paid work or unemployed.And the highest proportions of
    women either unemployed or inactive.So it,s the taxpayer who is dispropotionately supporting Muslim
    households more than any other group and relative to
    population size.They are handing themselves over
    to the BNP on a plate unlike the Sikh and Hindu
    communities.Because the BNP are using the info that
    i,ve quoted to target the Muslim communities and it,s
    not propaganda its fact.

    If the average Muslim household in Britain has an
    father in a low-paid job, a mother who is not working
    and 4-5 children then who is actually providing most
    of the financial support at the end of the day.It,s
    the non-Muslim taxpayer.And history shows us that
    when times are hard people look for scapegoats.Times
    are going to get tough Habib and my worry is that
    cultural attitudes in Britains Muslim communities
    are going to make them easy targets.I hope you won,t
    hate me for saying this but it,s what i think.

    Really got to go now but let,s talk about it another
    time if you want to.Take care.

  156. You, too, take care my friend, but I never mentioned anything about Islam.

  157. Hello Habib

    There is so much disinfo out there - politicians need to learn to tell the truth.

    Politics is about control, divide and rule, exploitation of fear.

    I see a tacit agreement between them all - let BNP say the nasty things - they can'refute' without giving true facts but claim moral high ground.

    Keep the people busy worrying about beasties under the bed while they steal the duvet.

    And while the BNP are castigating immigrants the gvt. is busy locking up whole families in horrible detention centres and snatching patients from hospitals and deporting them . The BNP propaganda effectively stifles protest at the mistreatment of these people by giving the false impression that Britain is stuffed full with foreign criminals and benefits scroungers.

    Night night x

  158. Paul

    Speak to you tomorrow. Don't work too hard.

    Nighty night x

  159. Good night, sweet friends, I love you x