Could we get together and release a pop single to raise awareness? You know, for kids...Maybe get Jerry Dammers in to produce, Sting's not busy at the moment and he's always good for this sort of thing. Play up the anti-Scouse angle and we could probably get Phil Redmond to direct the video, and Sonia to take lead vocal.
I'm thinking "Street Fightin' Man".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRqtKLskPQs
C'mon people, something must be done.
Btw, Montana, where do you stand on Dammers? On his windpipe, like Terry Hall would?
To be honest, I'm enjoying this site more than CiF atm. We could probably do with going with Montana's initial aim a little more, ie discussing the issues which CiF has raised but then shut down, as Jay and others were doing earlier on the date rape issue. If that side of things takes off, no reason why this site couldn't become a viable refuge for the banned, the damned and the disenchanted.
It probably needs a couple of the more enlightened right-wingers along though. There's nowt more dull than everyone agreeing with each other, after all. Dunno how much you've got in the transfer kitty, Montana, but I'd put big bids in for WheatFromChaff and EvilTory. The rest I would only consider if they were Bosmans.
Something else to bear in mind is that Atomboy's politicalnewsblogs site is being relaunched today with, he says, a far more user-friendly format, based on CiF's layout. I'll be checking in there in a day or two and, if it lives up to the billing, will be spending more time on there.
Okay, to continue this "When is it drunken consensual sex/when is it rape?" question:
It's a conundrum, isn't it? Laws about ability to consent under the influence are a direct result of the typical legal defence tactic of using the accuser's inebriation against her. Clearly, the fact that a woman has had a few too many doesn't mean she can't say "no" (and I know that no one here is claiming it does), but the days when it was common for people to think so aren't that long gone and, given some of the sexual assault case verdicts that have been handed down in recent years, there are still people who think that way.
At some point in time, we women are going to have to get to grips with the fact that binge drinking puts us at risk of being sexually assaulted and that quite a few of those sexual assaults will never be prosecuted. I don't think it's 'victim blaming' to say that. However, if you wake up in bed with some guy and you don't remember what happened, I honestly think that the default assumption ought to be that you engaged in consensual sex. At that point, you slap yourself on the forehead, say to yourself, "Stupid bitch" and get on with your life. Maybe don't get quite so shitfaced next time? I dunno. There's probably a bit of sanctimony in my position, because I've tended to fall on the side of over-cautiousness for most of my life. Fear of being branded a "slut" or being "taken advantage of" usually made me duck out of situations well before they ever could've progressed to the point of drunken consensual sex.
To be clear, I don't think that all sexual contact that happens when one or both parties are under the influence should automatically be considered consensual - the Worboys case is a good example of when it shouldn't be.
I feel like a broken record, but it all comes down to a change in attitudes about women and sex. The damn double standard has got to go. If we didn't keep telling girls that they're sluts if they have sex with a guy "too soon" or with too many guys, they wouldn't wake up the next morning regretting it.
God common sense stuff, Montana. Can't argue with any of that. I always steer clear of these threads on CiF tbh as I'm very wary of getting involved in anything too controversial or confrontational.
The only thing I'd pick you up on is whether the double standard still exists. It may well do in the US, which strikes me as a far more socially conservative place generally, but in the UK? I'm not sure. Would be interesting to hear from someone who's "down with the kids"!
I tend to avoid them too, probably because I find it depressing. I don't know about the UK, Hank, but I suppose I'm kind of down with the middle class kids in Barcelona and they seem to have fairly healthy attitudes towards sex, in that the girls talk about their conquests (not in detail, I hasten to add) as much as the boys do.
Speaking for myself, I don't think I've ever had sex with a woman who was drunker than me, cos I tend to drink far too much at times. It's scary to think of consent being retrospectively withdrawn. Is that really the effect of the new law? I'd be in favour of much harsher sentences for rape, I'm just not sure how such a law would help.
For the record, my Polly comment was deleted. It didn't last long.
"All this (mostly deleted) talk of villas and Polly's wage is distressing and unfair. Please stop it. Why shouldn't Polly call for 90% tax on people who earn more than her? And why shouldn't she demand a salary cap at a level she is very unlikely to exceed?
It's for the good of the poor people, you know."
Re Bosman transfers, hank - for opposing views, vitriol, stubbornness and knockabout entertainment I'd maybe take millytante, WML, ultimatethule and bitethehand on trial til the end of the season. The problem here is their total lack of humour apart from the odd good joke from milly. I suppose it depends on the sort of team that we're trying to build.
Montana, on the consensual sex/rape issue, I find it remarkable that the Guardian has not devoted even a single paragraph on their news pages or comment pages to the recent Peter Bacon case (google it if you haven't heard about it). It's a crucial part of the issues that they have been going wild about on CIF and the main paper for weeks now. I really think that it is despicable of the Guardian to excise this completely from the record as if it never happened - I can see that it presents the paper's apparent editorial policy with some sort of ethical dilemma, but for me it is almost the last straw regarding my respect for a paper I've always embraced. All the recent Labour sleaze has been completely buried by the G - Smith, McNulty, Blears etc. And for months now there has been a cavalcade of top government people and ministry flunkies writing thinkpieces that could have come straight from the Goebbels handbook. When the shit hits the fan in response, the threads are often shut down and no questions are ever answered by the authors. I dunno. The paper really has become an authoritarian rag that is scarcely better than the Mail. What's a decent socialist to read now? Fuck them!
Hoy, martillo. I'm pretty sure I've been taken advantage of a few times, but then I am both a bit of a pisshead and irresistibly good looking. A cross I bear with good grace and not a little humility, if I say so myself.
I think Ms Wildhack's spoken for most of us with her post above. We all instinctively, I think and hope, know the difference between rape and drunken consensual sex which is regretted as the hangover kicks in.
And like you, I'm all for very harsh sentences for the real deal. And that goes double for any sex where it can be proven that spiked drinks, rohypnol etc are a factor.
@scherfig - interesting isn't it? CiF's a broad church and, as I've said, there's certain cloisters I don't frequent, so the likes of millytante, ultima etc mean nothing to me. I do occasionally read the gender wars stuff, and appreciate that Jay spends much of his time fighting off the amorous attentions of those particular ladies, but I'm just not interested enough to get involved.
I've crossed swords with WML a few times though. Don't mind him at all. Always interesting and thought-provoking. Difficult to predict which side of the line he'll come down on for any given issue. Much like speedkermit, who I respect for his independence of mind and his wit. If all coppers were like him, getting nicked would at least be a philosophically rewarding experience...
Well, Hank, I'm all for a "Free the Cif Gulag Four" (we are at four right now, aren't we?) single. I don't think a Sting/Dammers collaboration would be practical, though. There isn't a recording studio on the planet with room for that much ego.
And, for the record (you're going to be sorry you asked), Terry is far too kind a soul to ever do such a thing! I know I'm not exactly neutral, but I think Terry Hall is taking a lot of blame for things that aren't really his doing. From what I've read elsewhere, most of the animosity towards Dammers actually comes from (an)other band member(s) and did back in the 80s, as well. But Terry was the first one to publicly walk away and was the lone hold-out all these years, so it's been assumed that the trouble was between him and Jerry. I think Hall just has/had a harder time dealing with the emotions than most of the others. He's been pretty public about a suicide attempt a few years ago and subsequent diagnosis of bipolar disorder. The onset of bipolar is usually in the early 20s - precisely the point of Hall's life when he was with the Specials, so he's very likely spent most of his adult life walking around with an undiagnosed mental illness, exhibiting behaviours that most of the people who knew him would've been attributing to him merely being an arsehole. Of course, he wouldn't have understood his behaviour any better than anyone else - so he's probably spent most of his life thinking, "What the fuck's the matter with me?" Well, now he knows and he's getting treatment and getting his life sorted out. That's why I find it easy to believe that he's sincere when he says that he really would like Jerry to have been part of the reunion - it's entirely consistent with someone who's gained a new lease on life. But the money to mount the tour had to come from somewhere and he happened to be the one band member who had connections that could finance it. Dammers doesn't like the lifestyle of the guy with the cash and he only wanted to do one show, at the Ricoh in Coventry. The other six wanted smaller venues and more dates. Six versus one. Yet Hall's the bad guy? Dammers partisans claim that the others are keeping him out because of greed, but I've yet to see an explanation of how they think it benefits the others financially to exclude him. If I read anything like a plausible explanation, I might rethink things, but from where I sit, it looks like six men realised that in their youth they had been a part of something very (no pun intended here) special and that there are a lot of people out there who agree. They've gotten back together because they thought it would be enjoyable. The one who's not with them is the one who had sucked out any possible joy they could have gotten the first time around and he's excluded exactly because he showed right away that he would do it all over again, given half the chance. I can't say as that I blame them for keeping him out.
hank, fair point about the gender wars - I'm fairly fed up with that shit myself. Re "right-wingers", RogerINtheUSA seems pretty well-informed and he's very funny.
Bloody hell, I'm sorry I asked. So we're not getting Dammers in then?
Always had a bit of a soft spot for Terry myself, always seemed a decent guy. And I'd hate to take issue with you, Montana, on your specialist (!) subject, but you can't discuss his depression without mentioning the sexual abuse he suffered as an adolescent and which is covered in the FB3's "Well Fancy That".
As for the Specials reforming, it was meaningless without the lead singer, but then two-thirds of The Jam have been happily and lucratively touring for the last couple of years without The Man. I've seen them twice, and very enjoyable it was both times, if a little reminiscent of seeing Dennis "Sinatra" Moss wowing Nottingham pubs on a Sunday night.
@scherfig - RogerInTheUSA is very defensive about the USA when the criticism is ill-informed, which is fair enough, but in American terms I'd imagine he's not right-wing. And he is, as you say, well-informed, as well as funny as fuck at times.
What about RogerHicks? Don't understand half his posts, and those I do seem to be split between green/left and sub-BNP "immigent" bile. Bonkers. I'm guessing he'd like to be fairly lonely on the Spaceship Earth he blogs on.
Some off the wall people I'd love to see round here...Pikey.. is always good for a laugh and his views are well... different... speedkermit is fab and a fellow pie afficianado... If you lot all desert cif I'll be gutted. One, because i can't even get on this site from the work computer... and two, the Graun is pretty much the only site i can get away with being on at work... There is plenty that drives me nuts about cif but there's still plenty I do still love.. The only real fuck up is the moderation and this madness of slapping people in pre-mod on the slimmest of pretexts.. What to do? i don't really know? Would there be any point in sending Matt emails listing exactly what is upsetting many long time ciffers? I'm half wondering if Matt hasn't decided that he'd like to get rid of a fair few of the old ciffers and is fighting a war of attrition to see if they'll just give up... I won't be because I've got nowhere else to go :-(
Just read an article from the Times Online & interview from the Daily Mail with Bacon. Yes, indeed, it sounds like he got a nutter. I can only draw the same conclusion as most of you as to the Graun's silence on the matter - it doesn't fit the Accepted View. My respect for the Graun has taken a beating since I came to Cif.
Will the identity of Bacon's accuser become public now that he has been found not guilty? It should. Fairness would dictate that either both accuser & accused would receive anonymity until the case is concluded, or they would both be named from the outset.
NOT rogerhicks! I'd honestly rather have The Lout... Hicks is borderline white supremacist... Rogerintheusa comes out with odd stuff sometimes but is certainly not lacking in wit... WML is a very interesting poster and some of his gob froths are just fab... my only beef with Woolly is I never quite got why he got on one about brusselsexpat, who spent most of the time taking the piss out of herself anyways... sadly she does seem to have deserted cif.. i miss her..
wildhack- Not in favour of naming women, I'm afraid... hard enuf to get women to come forward as it is... But men accused of rape should not be named unless found guilty.
Oh and while I'm on one.. I'd just like to say that the double standard hasn't quite disappeared from the sceptr'd isle... As long as the words 'slut' and 'slapper' are still bandied about then its still in force... and it wasn't that long ago that Cox had a thread on rape on cif talking about women 'not putting their valuables on display'...
Hank - I did tell you you'd be sorry - never ask a semi-obsessed woman about the object of her obsession! I knew about the sexual abuse (although I was under the impression that it had happened earlier than adolescence) and that, no doubt, had quite a bit to do with his subsequent mental health issues. I guess I didn't see the aetiology of his bipolar as central to the issue at hand. I will try to be more thorough next time...
How do we go about "inviting" people like Pikey (who's been here and apparently choosing not to come back), Ultima, WML and speedkermit to come over here?
Planet Roger is undoubtedly a lonely place, but if roger shares, as he puts it, "mankind's perverted Darwinian desire for POWER", then getting him on this thread would be like signing our own death warrant.
I think OldBagpuss would be good on here, and so would 9milerancher (another gulag victim) and also sarka.
@kiz - Pikey has already popped over here and you gave him a proper tongue-lashing, remember? And rightly so. His views aren't ...different...they're fucking obnoxious, and it pisses me off that Cif pays him to spout his "kill the poor" crap. I've tried to engage with him, understand his pov, but there's nothing there beyond a scary survivalist mentality.
Like all right-wingers, Pikey believes that we should all be freed from the clutches of the state, taxed far less and allowed to blossom. What he, and they, ignore is that many amongst us need a little help along the way if we're not all going to wither and die. But he, and they, don't care about those less able than themselves. Libertarianism is a pile of shite peddled by those who've read too much Nietzsche and believe that the future belongs to them.
They would be fascists if they could only get over their own "Superman" complex long enough to recognise that they ain't that fucking special. The hardest thing for Pikey, and other cheap demagogues like him, to accept is that there are millions of small-minded bullies full of bile and contempt for those not like them. And all of them want to be in charge.
Pikey loves to talk about the threat of tyranny from NuLab. He may be right. But he's no friend of democracy, fairness or equality. He would have been as happy as a pig in shit in Pinochet's Chile.
So, kiz, to recap, me and Pikey? This site's not big enough for the both of us.
I'm all for an interesting and challenging debate, but Pikey doesn't do debate. He's got a closed mind. He's also a hypocrite, given that he spouts about hating the public sector while his missus works as a librarian. When I suggested to him that his household income owed much to the state, he responded that he wasn't responsible for his wife's choices. That's just crap.
He's just a right-wing rabble-rouser and nasty with it. We don't need him here. Sorry. Speedkermit yep, jeremyjames yep. Pikey, no thanks. We shouldn't give the merchants of hate the oxygen of publicity.
sarka would indeed be fabulous... she really is just lovely (even if I can't always cope with the length and complexity of some of her posts, they're quite choo choo). Got a strange soft spot for onetoomany... mainly because i used to post a bit on the cif facebook page and he was rather sweet and quite different from his usual cif persona.. And tigerdunc was another one on cif facebook... and he's fab... and I've met him, too. Lovely lad... and his posts are always spot on as well as funny
kiz, yeah, where has brusselsexpats gone? Entertaining stuff, but did you never think that she was a total construct? I mean, it was all ballet and opera and long expensive lunches and jewellry and designer clothes every friggin' post. I'm fairly sure that it was just someone making up a fantasy life, although I may be wrong. Some top posts though!
Wow that was quite a rant Hank! 'Libertarianism is a pile of shite peddled by those who've read too much Nietzsche and believe that the future belongs to them.' Couldn't agree more... i suppose its the whole survivalist hatstandedness that also manages to intrigue me... It's probably a bit like my inexplicable fondness for dreadful 'B' disaster movies.... And jeremyjames is a gentleman. I disagree with most of his views and tell him so... and he always very politely replies... very charming chap.
scherfig- i couldn't care less how much truth or not there was/is in that persona... she really is very very funny... it was a subtle pisstake at times... but richly funny (could be a girl thing, though, to see the funny side).
"Where has brusselsexpat gone?" Yeh, I quite enjoy her posts but she's only been MIA ten days or so. She'll be back in a day or two with tales of travelling in the first-class section on the first Concorde to Mars. And bemoaning the fact that Svaroski and Prada haven't got franchises there yet.
Sarka's good as well. I never read her posts, far too long and deep, but I can still sense that she has a good aura.
So, anyway, let's get down to it, if we're looking to develop a forum which could be as busy and as lively as CiF, shouldn't we bring MaM on board? I'd love to know what that guy does for a living. If he's not a professional troll, and manages to hold down a proper job in between posting neo-lib propaganda over there, kudos to him.
kiz, I thought she was funny too (with a rather stern conservative Catholic twist as well, to be fair). I just didn't think she was real, not that it matters of course.
hank, top rant! You're quite right about PB - nothing new or original, old fascist tropes sexed up to be "provocative", no desire for dialogue, no sign of intellect. Fuck him.
Have you seen cif's own Holly Golightly in the past 10 days? i haven't seen her for 2 months! MaM just bores me... have to skip his posts entirely... doesn't even intrigue me novelty value wise. And he has to be a troll? i don't think I've seen him agree with anyone ever... or is that just my prejudice?
Sorry folks, rant over. Don't like Pike at all. And don't get me started on waltz.
Anyway, Holly Golightly...we've done the music thing so how about fave films?
Every gf I've had has been a big fan of Audrey Hepburn and Breakfast at Tiffanys in particular, but I've never met a bloke who can watch the film in a single sitting unless they were desperate to prove that they were a sensitive soul deserving of a shag. And most blokes prefer George Peppard in his A-Team role than his BaT one. Audrey's a girl thing, isn't she?
My fave actresses - Katherine Hepburn in just about anything, Liz Taylor in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, Jessica Lange in most of her filums, and Susan George in Straw Dogs.
Fave actor - Kirk Douglas - Paths of Glory, Spartacus, Ace in the Hole, Bad and the Beautiful, The Vikings. Top dude. Honourable mention to Richard Burton for Woolf, Spy Who Came In From The Cold, Look Back In Anger, Becket and 1984. Not sure about The Wild Geese though, but happy enough to watch Where Eagles Dare on alternate Xmases.
Well I've done it. And...I've just read it back and to be honest it's a pile of incoherent drivel which deviates from the point all the time. I kept refocussing on what pisses me off the most...and I could have kept going all night.
Got called back from the boozer to carry my little angel (wish he was-little sod's nearly big as me now) upstairs.
Anyway, having worked my way through all the Special Brew and fortified with a spliff or two, (back on it kiz-but it's resin-I've forsworn the skunk) I did what I could. Strange thing is it's quite tame which surprised me. I put it down to months of enforced 'congeniality' owing to cif's tendency to bin anything remotely contentious emanating from the monkeyfish keyboard. I'm fuckin ashamed of myself tbh. But I'm off to watch the football and cadge a glass or two of Madame mf's Shiraz. It's a word document, so if the apostrophes vanish...rest assured the punctuation was probably OK to start with. Right..here goes.
Well where is it then MF? Put it up... Oh and there's a fairly interesting slightly pro-anarchist thread up on cif this evening if any one likes that sort of thing....
@monkeyfish - looking forward to reading it. Remind me about Repunzal. Name rings a bell but, as easy going as I am, I seem to have fallen foul of some proper rightwing dickwads along the way...
Not sure about MaM - another fantasist, I fear. Plus I don't think his stuff is that interesting. How about heyhabib? - always short and pithy with the odd deletion that proves he's well hard.
It would be nice to build this blog up a bit more with some more interesting posters.
Worst actresses - Kirsten Dunst, Gwynneth Paltrow, and the mommy of them all ALI MCGRAW (tears of laughter for the tragic Love Story and just embarassment for Convoy). Worst actors - Vin Diesel (though me and my son love him!), early Tony Curtis (in Some Like it Hot he was brilliant though), Stephen Seagal.
Films: Apocalypse Now Serenity Seven LOTR If Spinal Tap King's Row Dr Zhivago
etc etc
And check out the 2000 low-budget Irish movie "Rat" with Pete Postlethwaite - "A man accidentally gets turned into a rat and his family must cope with the necessary adjustments." It's no Citizen Kane, but I'm laughing just thinking about it.
Repunzal was Radical Change's partner in LVT crime. She's fuckin funny though.
I miss Swifty Boy, Spurs Supporter, Undergroundman, Mrs Robinson and Ruth Fowler (natch). btw where the fuck's bitterweed lately? Also fugalinfection's got a way with abuse...as has TheLooneyfromCatford...although he seems to have nine lives the lucky twat. I love having a pop at reactionary shitehawks as much as the next chap or chapess, so how come he gets to and mine get zapped. It's the fuckin scouse thing again...I can smell it a mile of.
Even had an email once saying : "rest assured, cif has no issue with Liverpudlians" when I raised this. They nearly got one back saying "rest assured I've got nothing against useless, cosseted, middleclass, knownothing streaks of piss whose daddy knows someone at the Guardian".
Shit...just remembered...Joseph Harker...didn't even include him in my 'what pisses me off' thing.
Apocalypse Now Taxi Driver Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf Ace In The Hole Nashville Gregory's Girl Godfather 1 and 2 Usual Suspects His Girl Friday Bringing Up Baby Woman Of The Year
Jean Seberg, Vanessa Redgrave, Simone Signoret, Ava Gardner, Jean Simmons, Lauren Bacall, Ingrid Bergman ...seven so what?
Edward G Robinson, Spenser Tracy, Albert Finney...
see 10 altogether. Oh yeah...Ernest Bourgnine and gotta say it Hank...The Vikings...does it get any better? The perfect film. Chucking axes at pigtails
'It's the fuckin scouse thing again...I can smell it a mile of.' Yeah yeah yeah... Gotta love mushroom for being one of cifs supremely funny trolls.. born for the naughty step. "rest assured I've got nothing against useless, cosseted, middleclass, knownothing streaks of piss whose daddy knows someone at the Guardian". very funny... specially the streaks of piss bit...
Oh the old Land Value Tax thing. That was a larf. I thought it was radicalchange and Janissary, tbh, but then sexually-frustrated liberals on ketamine with no place to focus their big boy spunkiness all look the same to me.
There's a number of posters I'd like to meet for a convivial drink. And there's a number I'd like to meet for a full and frank exchange of views. Those two are near the top of my B list.
Loony's a good lad, leave him alone, you big bully.
Joe Harker - oh yeh...Did I ever mention that I went to an NUS conference with him back in the mid-80s? Was at Nottm Uni with him, even though he was 6 or so years older, professional student, and vapid as ParisH. Nice enough guy but he typifies all that is wrong with positive discrimination.
I haven't seen bru in ages and I think she's long gone - her profile doesn't even exist anymore - I've just checked. And I did find in my comments that back on 5 Feb I asked Kiz if she'd seen Bru in the Sexist Feminism thread. So she's been AWOL for more than 2 months. Maybe she was just a figment of our collective imagination?
Hank, re spartacus, have you ever seen the originally deleted scene with Tony Curtis (another stunningly bad performance btw) and Laurence Olivier in the bath? A subtle homosexual seduction scene enlivened by sly talk of eating oysters and eating snails. Strong stuff for 1960, but Kubrik was forced to leave it on the cutting room floor. I believe it's now been added to a fuller DVD version.
The Vikings - not so PC anymore. With a respectful nod to the recent rape threads, in 1958 you could say this about Janet Leigh:
Einar: She said she would kill herself if I touched her. Ragnar: Ah they all say that. What they mean is they'll kill themselves if you don't.
(Immediately runs for cover from montana, kiz, annetan etc) And with a whimper, I'm fucking splitting, Jack. (what movie?)
Monkeyfish - Bitterweed posted just today, so he's still around. Between this place, taking care of the sprog and nursing a migraine (why do I always get them on Saturdays?), I haven't actually read anything on Cif today - just went over there to look for Bru's, and later Bitterweed's profiles.
I'm not sure I can really say I have favourite actors & actresses, per se. "Charade" is one of my favourite movies and I do think Audrey Hepburn was lovely in it, but I've never seen "Breakfast at Tiffany's". I think Ingrid Bergman and Grace Kelly were two of the most beautiful women ever to grace a screen. Can't stand most of the current A-list actresses. And (I know she's not A-list, but) Andie Freakin' McDowell plumbs the full range of emotion from wooden to stiff.
Actors? As mentioned recently, Liam Neeson is about the only one who makes me go all warm and gooey, but I wouldn't watch a film just because he was in it. I've never had much of a thing for actors as heart-throbs. Musicians and athletes, for me.
My favourite movies tend to be comedies: MP & the Holy Grail, Blazing Saddles, The Gods Must Be Crazy, That Sinking Feeling, Clockwise, This is Spinal Tap, Women on the Verge of Having a Nervous Breakdown...
@scherfig - yup, the "do you like snails" scene. Went right over my head tbh. I never got the snails v oysters thing, but then I'm more of a boob man myself (-;
Tony Curtis wasn't that bad an actor. What about The Boston Strangler? The Persuaders? Jeez, he was Antoninus, the singer of songs. Give the guy a break. If nothing else, he married well and his daughter had great tits.
"And with a whimper, I'm fucking splitting, Jack. (What movie?)"
Chinatown? American Pie 2?
I've met a lot of hard boiled eggs in my life, scherfig, but you - you're twenty minutes. (What filum?)
hank - Dennis Hopper's crazy photographer in Apocalypse Now. Mostly ad-libbed apparently, as they were all out of their skulls all the time.
Yeah, Curtis did do some good stuff (Some Like it Hot, Boston Strangler, Last Tycoon), but mostly he was bad, and when he was bad he was horrid. His daughter had fantastic tits, but that's never gonna win an Oscar.
That Sinking Feeling - good call, Montana. Bill Forsyth's debut, I think, cracking film. I'd also like to give a big big-up for The Commitments, The Snapper and The Van - Roddy Doyle's trilogy and Colm Meaney's finest 4 and a half hours...
And The Commitments has the best soundtrack of any film, Tarantino's first two films just behind.
@scherfig - Apocalypse Now, really? I've watched that film so many times, but I guess I always skipped Hopper's stuff. Not a fan, tbh, which is why Easy Rider was a difficult watch for me!
I'm trying to get hold of a DVD of Hearts of Darkness, about the making of the film, but you're right about them all being waaay out of it for much of the time. If I remember right, Mrs Sheen divorced MArtin when he got home on the grounds of being a bit fucking bonkers...
Anyway, I've posed you a question and I'm waiting for an answer that doesn't involve google...
hank, not sure what the question is? Please pose it again.
Re The Commitments. I discovered several years after the film came out, that I knew Andrew Strong's dad! He had a band in Belfast in the late 70's, no mean singer himself.
Not a bad shout, scherfig, but it's Jan Sterling to Kirk Douglas in Ace in the Hole. She also had another top line in the film, "I don't go to church. Kneeling bags my nylons."
If you've never seen it, do yourself a favour and get hold of a copy. Billy Wilder was a great director with a great range, but nobody did dark and cynical as well as him.
ha ha, thanks, hank. I've seen the film, great stuff. I love Wilder - my fave is probably "The Apartment". Shirley MacClaine has never ever been better and Oscars all round! (whatever that's worth). The Lost Weekend and Sunset Boulevard were also top movies.
If you like the "golden age" of Hollywood (which you apparently do), David Niven's two books "The Moon's a Balloon" and "Bring on the Empty Horses" are required reading. It's a fascinating insight into the Hollwood of the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Necessarily coy and sanitized for legal reasons (for example, Niven transporting Laurence Olivier's then wife, Vivien Leigh, "over state lines for immoral purposes" and escaping prosecution, and yet not actually naming her in the book, or somewhat vague casual references to marijuana and cocaine), but you can read between the lines and get the big picture - tremendous fun!
Nice dingdong you had tonight with MartynInEurope tonight scherfig. I personally thought he was being a bit too full of himself but then again him and RogerInUSA have been all over CiF unchallengened in the last few days (especially Martyn, must be raining in Spain or something).
yeah, pestinpest. tbh I usually skim over martyn's posts 'cos they just bore me, but for some reason I responded this time. He does have a somewhat pompous style, but not a lot to say really.
RogerinUSA, otoh, is adept at funny one-liners, and he gives good link too.
Wheatfromchaffs a good shout, makes good contributions.
"I do occasionally read the gender wars stuff, and appreciate that Jay spends much of his time fighting off the amorous attentions of those particular ladies,"
I am something of a pin-up in the fem world it must be said(the dartboard variety usually).
Montana - i think the problem with this drunk consent thing is that i can fully grasp the theoretical notion of someone being so smashed they dont really have much clue what is going on and that theoretically they cant really consent or not consent to things. But my real issue is how this is defined in practice? How does Joe Bloggs know whether the girl he's with is drunk in a legal/non rape way or a illegal/rape type way? I dont see any way of making it objective, and the consequent of that is that you could actually be 'raping' someone whilst seemingly engaged in consensual drunken sex (a very, very common thing). Its because of this subjectivity that i cant really get past feeling that if people choose to get drunk, they must take legal responsibility for their actions in terms of the law (which is currently the case for everything except rape).
Also, i suspect the real outcry over the security guard case that kicked it all off (or whichever one it was) was because for idealogues the ruling could be seen as supporting the idea that "drunk women are fair game". Some people say this and what they mean is if they are forced into sex when drunk, tough luck, and i can fully understand the desire to rid the country of such callous stupidity. But, i think to then change the law so it covers drunken consensual sex is just another crazy ballpark altogether. I think its another case of ideology trumping reason - nowhere else in law do we absolve someone of responsibility because they chose to get shit faced. What was intended to get 'rapists' has in fact seen Mr Bacon charged with rape.
If the girl is so drunk she is not responsible for her actions, why cant the rapist say "i was so drunk that im not legally responsible for my actions"? We are introducing an imbalance in the law, one drunkard is legally responsible, one wasnt.
Yep Speedkermit is often good too, some interesting and funny posts.
"Fairness would dictate that either both accuser & accused would receive anonymity until the case is concluded, or they would both be named from the outset."
I agree. Though i wouuld go for both anonymous until proven guilty - if you are legally innocent until guilty you shouldn't have your face splashed across the media with "rapist" all over it. The amount of damage even to those found innocent is probably pretty large. But, if you name both from the outset you certainly make it more difficult for women to come forward, so i think both anonymous has to be the way forward.
"How do we go about "inviting" people like Pikey (who's been here and apparently choosing not to come back), Ultima,"
Ultima? She is a spiteful compulsive liar. I have totally lost patience with her, i've had enough. She has a loathing for me which really wouldnt be out of place if i had gassed her whole family and then pissed on their ashes.
Sarka - always welcome.
"And The Commitments has the best soundtrack of any film," - agreed.
Hank, quality rant earlier. Just wanted to say, though, that I met Pikey, briefly, at the cambridge Convention on Modern Liberty, and he seemed like a nice enough chap.
I quite like him on CiF, which annoys me sometimes when he's off on his anti-welfare rants. I agree with him more or less completely on issues like id cards, extreme porn and internet censorship, and disagree with him completely on many other things. I suppose it's that political compass thing - I'm a left-leaning liberal, so I find I do have some areas of common ground with right-wing libertarians.
Which is something I never thought I'd ever write back in 1997.
Jay - I don't think we disagree on the drunken consent thing. I did say that I think the default assumption for a woman, when she wakes up in bed with a guy she doesn't remember having sex with, is to assume that she agreed to it and hope that she enjoyed it while it was happening. I can't see how you can claim you were raped if you don't remember it, TBH.
Ultima - no, I really don't want her here anymore than you do. Myself - I've not been too worried about who makes it here and who doesn't. I've quite enjoyed Caressofsteel on the Tanya Gold thread (how bonkers has that been?), and someone I've never seen before and can't recall at the moment, but I'm not familiar enough with either of them to know.
Yeah i think we are largely singing from the same sheet i was just stating my position (i probably sounded more confrontational than i should have done, too much time on cif...)
Could we get together and release a pop single to raise awareness? You know, for kids...Maybe get Jerry Dammers in to produce, Sting's not busy at the moment and he's always good for this sort of thing. Play up the anti-Scouse angle and we could probably get Phil Redmond to direct the video, and Sonia to take lead vocal.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking "Street Fightin' Man".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRqtKLskPQs
C'mon people, something must be done.
Btw, Montana, where do you stand on Dammers? On his windpipe, like Terry Hall would?
To be honest, I'm enjoying this site more than CiF atm. We could probably do with going with Montana's initial aim a little more, ie discussing the issues which CiF has raised but then shut down, as Jay and others were doing earlier on the date rape issue. If that side of things takes off, no reason why this site couldn't become a viable refuge for the banned, the damned and the disenchanted.
It probably needs a couple of the more enlightened right-wingers along though. There's nowt more dull than everyone agreeing with each other, after all. Dunno how much you've got in the transfer kitty, Montana, but I'd put big bids in for WheatFromChaff and EvilTory. The rest I would only consider if they were Bosmans.
Something else to bear in mind is that Atomboy's politicalnewsblogs site is being relaunched today with, he says, a far more user-friendly format, based on CiF's layout. I'll be checking in there in a day or two and, if it lives up to the billing, will be spending more time on there.
Okay, to continue this "When is it drunken consensual sex/when is it rape?" question:
ReplyDeleteIt's a conundrum, isn't it? Laws about ability to consent under the influence are a direct result of the typical legal defence tactic of using the accuser's inebriation against her. Clearly, the fact that a woman has had a few too many doesn't mean she can't say "no" (and I know that no one here is claiming it does), but the days when it was common for people to think so aren't that long gone and, given some of the sexual assault case verdicts that have been handed down in recent years, there are still people who think that way.
At some point in time, we women are going to have to get to grips with the fact that binge drinking puts us at risk of being sexually assaulted and that quite a few of those sexual assaults will never be prosecuted. I don't think it's 'victim blaming' to say that. However, if you wake up in bed with some guy and you don't remember what happened, I honestly think that the default assumption ought to be that you engaged in consensual sex. At that point, you slap yourself on the forehead, say to yourself, "Stupid bitch" and get on with your life. Maybe don't get quite so shitfaced next time? I dunno. There's probably a bit of sanctimony in my position, because I've tended to fall on the side of over-cautiousness for most of my life. Fear of being branded a "slut" or being "taken advantage of" usually made me duck out of situations well before they ever could've progressed to the point of drunken consensual sex.
To be clear, I don't think that all sexual contact that happens when one or both parties are under the influence should automatically be considered consensual - the Worboys case is a good example of when it shouldn't be.
I feel like a broken record, but it all comes down to a change in attitudes about women and sex. The damn double standard has got to go. If we didn't keep telling girls that they're sluts if they have sex with a guy "too soon" or with too many guys, they wouldn't wake up the next morning regretting it.
God common sense stuff, Montana. Can't argue with any of that. I always steer clear of these threads on CiF tbh as I'm very wary of getting involved in anything too controversial or confrontational.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I'd pick you up on is whether the double standard still exists. It may well do in the US, which strikes me as a far more socially conservative place generally, but in the UK? I'm not sure. Would be interesting to hear from someone who's "down with the kids"!
I tend to avoid them too, probably because I find it depressing. I don't know about the UK, Hank, but I suppose I'm kind of down with the middle class kids in Barcelona and they seem to have fairly healthy attitudes towards sex, in that the girls talk about their conquests (not in detail, I hasten to add) as much as the boys do.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, I don't think I've ever had sex with a woman who was drunker than me, cos I tend to drink far too much at times. It's scary to think of consent being retrospectively withdrawn. Is that really the effect of the new law? I'd be in favour of much harsher sentences for rape, I'm just not sure how such a law would help.
Hooray, new thread! Thx montana.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, my Polly comment was deleted. It didn't last long.
"All this (mostly deleted) talk of villas and Polly's wage is distressing and unfair. Please stop it. Why shouldn't Polly call for 90% tax on people who earn more than her? And why shouldn't she demand a salary cap at a level she is very unlikely to exceed?
It's for the good of the poor people, you know."
Re Bosman transfers, hank - for opposing views, vitriol, stubbornness and knockabout entertainment I'd maybe take millytante, WML, ultimatethule and bitethehand on trial til the end of the season. The problem here is their total lack of humour apart from the odd good joke from milly. I suppose it depends on the sort of team that we're trying to build.
Montana, on the consensual sex/rape issue, I find it remarkable that the Guardian has not devoted even a single paragraph on their news pages or comment pages to the recent Peter Bacon case (google it if you haven't heard about it). It's a crucial part of the issues that they have been going wild about on CIF and the main paper for weeks now.
I really think that it is despicable of the Guardian to excise this completely from the record as if it never happened - I can see that it presents the paper's apparent editorial policy with some sort of ethical dilemma, but for me it is almost the last straw regarding my respect for a paper I've always embraced. All the recent Labour sleaze has been completely buried by the G - Smith, McNulty, Blears etc. And for months now there has been a cavalcade of top government people and ministry flunkies writing thinkpieces that could have come straight from the Goebbels handbook. When the shit hits the fan in response, the threads are often shut down and no questions are ever answered by the authors. I dunno. The paper really has become an authoritarian rag that is scarcely better than the Mail. What's a decent socialist to read now? Fuck them!
Hoy, martillo. I'm pretty sure I've been taken advantage of a few times, but then I am both a bit of a pisshead and irresistibly good looking. A cross I bear with good grace and not a little humility, if I say so myself.
ReplyDeleteI think Ms Wildhack's spoken for most of us with her post above. We all instinctively, I think and hope, know the difference between rape and drunken consensual sex which is regretted as the hangover kicks in.
And like you, I'm all for very harsh sentences for the real deal. And that goes double for any sex where it can be proven that spiked drinks, rohypnol etc are a factor.
@scherfig - interesting isn't it? CiF's a broad church and, as I've said, there's certain cloisters I don't frequent, so the likes of millytante, ultima etc mean nothing to me. I do occasionally read the gender wars stuff, and appreciate that Jay spends much of his time fighting off the amorous attentions of those particular ladies, but I'm just not interested enough to get involved.
ReplyDeleteI've crossed swords with WML a few times though. Don't mind him at all. Always interesting and thought-provoking. Difficult to predict which side of the line he'll come down on for any given issue. Much like speedkermit, who I respect for his independence of mind and his wit. If all coppers were like him, getting nicked would at least be a philosophically rewarding experience...
Well, Hank, I'm all for a "Free the Cif Gulag Four" (we are at four right now, aren't we?) single. I don't think a Sting/Dammers collaboration would be practical, though. There isn't a recording studio on the planet with room for that much ego.
ReplyDeleteAnd, for the record (you're going to be sorry you asked), Terry is far too kind a soul to ever do such a thing! I know I'm not exactly neutral, but I think Terry Hall is taking a lot of blame for things that aren't really his doing. From what I've read elsewhere, most of the animosity towards Dammers actually comes from (an)other band member(s) and did back in the 80s, as well. But Terry was the first one to publicly walk away and was the lone hold-out all these years, so it's been assumed that the trouble was between him and Jerry. I think Hall just has/had a harder time dealing with the emotions than most of the others. He's been pretty public about a suicide attempt a few years ago and subsequent diagnosis of bipolar disorder. The onset of bipolar is usually in the early 20s - precisely the point of Hall's life when he was with the Specials, so he's very likely spent most of his adult life walking around with an undiagnosed mental illness, exhibiting behaviours that most of the people who knew him would've been attributing to him merely being an arsehole. Of course, he wouldn't have understood his behaviour any better than anyone else - so he's probably spent most of his life thinking, "What the fuck's the matter with me?" Well, now he knows and he's getting treatment and getting his life sorted out. That's why I find it easy to believe that he's sincere when he says that he really would like Jerry to have been part of the reunion - it's entirely consistent with someone who's gained a new lease on life. But the money to mount the tour had to come from somewhere and he happened to be the one band member who had connections that could finance it. Dammers doesn't like the lifestyle of the guy with the cash and he only wanted to do one show, at the Ricoh in Coventry. The other six wanted smaller venues and more dates. Six versus one. Yet Hall's the bad guy? Dammers partisans claim that the others are keeping him out because of greed, but I've yet to see an explanation of how they think it benefits the others financially to exclude him. If I read anything like a plausible explanation, I might rethink things, but from where I sit, it looks like six men realised that in their youth they had been a part of something very (no pun intended here) special and that there are a lot of people out there who agree. They've gotten back together because they thought it would be enjoyable. The one who's not with them is the one who had sucked out any possible joy they could have gotten the first time around and he's excluded exactly because he showed right away that he would do it all over again, given half the chance. I can't say as that I blame them for keeping him out.
I told you you'd be sorry you asked...
hank, fair point about the gender wars - I'm fairly fed up with that shit myself. Re "right-wingers", RogerINtheUSA seems pretty well-informed and he's very funny.
ReplyDeleteBloody hell, I'm sorry I asked. So we're not getting Dammers in then?
ReplyDeleteAlways had a bit of a soft spot for Terry myself, always seemed a decent guy. And I'd hate to take issue with you, Montana, on your specialist (!) subject, but you can't discuss his depression without mentioning the sexual abuse he suffered as an adolescent and which is covered in the FB3's "Well Fancy That".
As for the Specials reforming, it was meaningless without the lead singer, but then two-thirds of The Jam have been happily and lucratively touring for the last couple of years without The Man. I've seen them twice, and very enjoyable it was both times, if a little reminiscent of seeing Dennis "Sinatra" Moss wowing Nottingham pubs on a Sunday night.
@scherfig - RogerInTheUSA is very defensive about the USA when the criticism is ill-informed, which is fair enough, but in American terms I'd imagine he's not right-wing. And he is, as you say, well-informed, as well as funny as fuck at times.
ReplyDeleteWhat about RogerHicks? Don't understand half his posts, and those I do seem to be split between green/left and sub-BNP "immigent" bile. Bonkers. I'm guessing he'd like to be fairly lonely on the Spaceship Earth he blogs on.
Some off the wall people I'd love to see round here...Pikey.. is always good for a laugh and his views are well... different... speedkermit is fab and a fellow pie afficianado...
ReplyDeleteIf you lot all desert cif I'll be gutted. One, because i can't even get on this site from the work computer... and two, the Graun is pretty much the only site i can get away with being on at work...
There is plenty that drives me nuts about cif but there's still plenty I do still love.. The only real fuck up is the moderation and this madness of slapping people in pre-mod on the slimmest of pretexts.. What to do? i don't really know? Would there be any point in sending Matt emails listing exactly what is upsetting many long time ciffers? I'm half wondering if Matt hasn't decided that he'd like to get rid of a fair few of the old ciffers and is fighting a war of attrition to see if they'll just give up... I won't be because I've got nowhere else to go :-(
Just read an article from the Times Online & interview from the Daily Mail with Bacon. Yes, indeed, it sounds like he got a nutter. I can only draw the same conclusion as most of you as to the Graun's silence on the matter - it doesn't fit the Accepted View. My respect for the Graun has taken a beating since I came to Cif.
ReplyDeleteWill the identity of Bacon's accuser become public now that he has been found not guilty? It should. Fairness would dictate that either both accuser & accused would receive anonymity until the case is concluded, or they would both be named from the outset.
NOT rogerhicks! I'd honestly rather have The Lout... Hicks is borderline white supremacist... Rogerintheusa comes out with odd stuff sometimes but is certainly not lacking in wit...
ReplyDeleteWML is a very interesting poster and some of his gob froths are just fab... my only beef with Woolly is I never quite got why he got on one about brusselsexpat, who spent most of the time taking the piss out of herself anyways... sadly she does seem to have deserted cif.. i miss her..
wildhack- Not in favour of naming women, I'm afraid... hard enuf to get women to come forward as it is... But men accused of rape should not be named unless found guilty.
ReplyDeleteOh and while I'm on one.. I'd just like to say that the double standard hasn't quite disappeared from the sceptr'd isle... As long as the words 'slut' and 'slapper' are still bandied about then its still in force... and it wasn't that long ago that Cox had a thread on rape on cif talking about women 'not putting their valuables on display'...
ReplyDeleteHank - I did tell you you'd be sorry - never ask a semi-obsessed woman about the object of her obsession! I knew about the sexual abuse (although I was under the impression that it had happened earlier than adolescence) and that, no doubt, had quite a bit to do with his subsequent mental health issues. I guess I didn't see the aetiology of his bipolar as central to the issue at hand. I will try to be more thorough next time...
ReplyDeleteHow do we go about "inviting" people like Pikey (who's been here and apparently choosing not to come back), Ultima, WML and speedkermit to come over here?
Kiz - my preference would be for both parties to remain anonymous, too, but US media would never go for that.
ReplyDeletePlanet Roger is undoubtedly a lonely place, but if roger shares, as he puts it, "mankind's perverted Darwinian desire for POWER", then getting him on this thread would be like signing our own death warrant.
ReplyDeleteI think OldBagpuss would be good on here, and so would 9milerancher (another gulag victim) and also sarka.
@kiz - Pikey has already popped over here and you gave him a proper tongue-lashing, remember? And rightly so. His views aren't ...different...they're fucking obnoxious, and it pisses me off that Cif pays him to spout his "kill the poor" crap. I've tried to engage with him, understand his pov, but there's nothing there beyond a scary survivalist mentality.
ReplyDeleteLike all right-wingers, Pikey believes that we should all be freed from the clutches of the state, taxed far less and allowed to blossom. What he, and they, ignore is that many amongst us need a little help along the way if we're not all going to wither and die. But he, and they, don't care about those less able than themselves. Libertarianism is a pile of shite peddled by those who've read too much Nietzsche and believe that the future belongs to them.
They would be fascists if they could only get over their own "Superman" complex long enough to recognise that they ain't that fucking special. The hardest thing for Pikey, and other cheap demagogues like him, to accept is that there are millions of small-minded bullies full of bile and contempt for those not like them. And all of them want to be in charge.
Pikey loves to talk about the threat of tyranny from NuLab. He may be right. But he's no friend of democracy, fairness or equality. He would have been as happy as a pig in shit in Pinochet's Chile.
So, kiz, to recap, me and Pikey? This site's not big enough for the both of us.
I'm all for an interesting and challenging debate, but Pikey doesn't do debate. He's got a closed mind. He's also a hypocrite, given that he spouts about hating the public sector while his missus works as a librarian. When I suggested to him that his household income owed much to the state, he responded that he wasn't responsible for his wife's choices. That's just crap.
He's just a right-wing rabble-rouser and nasty with it. We don't need him here. Sorry. Speedkermit yep, jeremyjames yep. Pikey, no thanks. We shouldn't give the merchants of hate the oxygen of publicity.
sarka would indeed be fabulous... she really is just lovely (even if I can't always cope with the length and complexity of some of her posts, they're quite choo choo).
ReplyDeleteGot a strange soft spot for onetoomany... mainly because i used to post a bit on the cif facebook page and he was rather sweet and quite different from his usual cif persona..
And tigerdunc was another one on cif facebook... and he's fab... and I've met him, too. Lovely lad... and his posts are always spot on as well as funny
kiz, yeah, where has brusselsexpats gone? Entertaining stuff, but did you never think that she was a total construct? I mean, it was all ballet and opera and long expensive lunches and jewellry and designer clothes every friggin' post. I'm fairly sure that it was just someone making up a fantasy life, although I may be wrong. Some top posts though!
ReplyDeleteWow that was quite a rant Hank!
ReplyDelete'Libertarianism is a pile of shite peddled by those who've read too much Nietzsche and believe that the future belongs to them.'
Couldn't agree more... i suppose its the whole survivalist hatstandedness that also manages to intrigue me... It's probably a bit like my inexplicable fondness for dreadful 'B' disaster movies....
And jeremyjames is a gentleman. I disagree with most of his views and tell him so... and he always very politely replies... very charming chap.
scherfig- i couldn't care less how much truth or not there was/is in that persona... she really is very very funny... it was a subtle pisstake at times... but richly funny (could be a girl thing, though, to see the funny side).
ReplyDelete"Where has brusselsexpat gone?" Yeh, I quite enjoy her posts but she's only been MIA ten days or so. She'll be back in a day or two with tales of travelling in the first-class section on the first Concorde to Mars. And bemoaning the fact that Svaroski and Prada haven't got franchises there yet.
ReplyDeleteSarka's good as well. I never read her posts, far too long and deep, but I can still sense that she has a good aura.
So, anyway, let's get down to it, if we're looking to develop a forum which could be as busy and as lively as CiF, shouldn't we bring MaM on board? I'd love to know what that guy does for a living. If he's not a professional troll, and manages to hold down a proper job in between posting neo-lib propaganda over there, kudos to him.
kiz, I thought she was funny too (with a rather stern conservative Catholic twist as well, to be fair). I just didn't think she was real, not that it matters of course.
ReplyDeletehank, top rant! You're quite right about PB - nothing new or original, old fascist tropes sexed up to be "provocative", no desire for dialogue, no sign of intellect. Fuck him.
Have you seen cif's own Holly Golightly in the past 10 days? i haven't seen her for 2 months!
ReplyDeleteMaM just bores me... have to skip his posts entirely... doesn't even intrigue me novelty value wise. And he has to be a troll? i don't think I've seen him agree with anyone ever... or is that just my prejudice?
So she might have embellished a bit... extra entertainment i call it...
ReplyDeleteSorry folks, rant over. Don't like Pike at all. And don't get me started on waltz.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Holly Golightly...we've done the music thing so how about fave films?
Every gf I've had has been a big fan of Audrey Hepburn and Breakfast at Tiffanys in particular, but I've never met a bloke who can watch the film in a single sitting unless they were desperate to prove that they were a sensitive soul deserving of a shag. And most blokes prefer George Peppard in his A-Team role than his BaT one. Audrey's a girl thing, isn't she?
My fave actresses - Katherine Hepburn in just about anything, Liz Taylor in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, Jessica Lange in most of her filums, and Susan George in Straw Dogs.
Fave actor - Kirk Douglas - Paths of Glory, Spartacus, Ace in the Hole, Bad and the Beautiful, The Vikings. Top dude. Honourable mention to Richard Burton for Woolf, Spy Who Came In From The Cold, Look Back In Anger, Becket and 1984. Not sure about The Wild Geese though, but happy enough to watch Where Eagles Dare on alternate Xmases.
Well I've done it. And...I've just read it back and to be honest it's a pile of incoherent drivel which deviates from the point all the time. I kept refocussing on what pisses me off the most...and I could have kept going all night.
ReplyDeleteGot called back from the boozer to carry my little angel (wish he was-little sod's nearly big as me now) upstairs.
Anyway, having worked my way through all the Special Brew and fortified with a spliff or two, (back on it kiz-but it's resin-I've forsworn the skunk) I did what I could. Strange thing is it's quite tame which surprised me. I put it down to months of enforced 'congeniality' owing to cif's tendency to bin anything remotely contentious emanating from the monkeyfish keyboard. I'm fuckin ashamed of myself tbh. But I'm off to watch the football and cadge a glass or two of Madame mf's Shiraz. It's a word document, so if the apostrophes vanish...rest assured the punctuation was probably OK to start with. Right..here goes.
Oh yeah. Hank. Should I invite Repunzal? ;)
Well where is it then MF? Put it up...
ReplyDeleteOh and there's a fairly interesting slightly pro-anarchist thread up on cif this evening if any one likes that sort of thing....
@monkeyfish - looking forward to reading it. Remind me about Repunzal. Name rings a bell but, as easy going as I am, I seem to have fallen foul of some proper rightwing dickwads along the way...
ReplyDeleteNot sure about MaM - another fantasist, I fear. Plus I don't think his stuff is that interesting. How about heyhabib? - always short and pithy with the odd deletion that proves he's well hard.
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice to build this blog up a bit more with some more interesting posters.
Worst actresses - Kirsten Dunst, Gwynneth Paltrow, and the mommy of them all ALI MCGRAW (tears of laughter for the tragic Love Story and just embarassment for Convoy).
Worst actors - Vin Diesel (though me and my son love him!), early Tony Curtis (in Some Like it Hot he was brilliant though), Stephen Seagal.
There are lots more, obviously - any ideas?
Films:
ReplyDeleteApocalypse Now
Serenity
Seven
LOTR
If
Spinal Tap
King's Row
Dr Zhivago
etc etc
And check out the 2000 low-budget Irish movie "Rat" with Pete Postlethwaite - "A man accidentally gets turned into a rat and his family must cope with the necessary adjustments." It's no Citizen Kane, but I'm laughing just thinking about it.
kiz dunno I sent it.
ReplyDeleteHank
Repunzal was Radical Change's partner in LVT crime. She's fuckin funny though.
I miss Swifty Boy, Spurs Supporter, Undergroundman, Mrs Robinson and Ruth Fowler (natch). btw where the fuck's bitterweed lately? Also fugalinfection's got a way with abuse...as has TheLooneyfromCatford...although he seems to have nine lives the lucky twat. I love having a pop at reactionary shitehawks as much as the next chap or chapess, so how come he gets to and mine get zapped. It's the fuckin scouse thing again...I can smell it a mile of.
Even had an email once saying : "rest assured, cif has no issue with Liverpudlians" when I raised this. They nearly got one back saying "rest assured I've got nothing against useless, cosseted, middleclass, knownothing streaks of piss whose daddy knows someone at the Guardian".
Shit...just remembered...Joseph Harker...didn't even include him in my 'what pisses me off' thing.
Filums
ReplyDeleteApocalypse Now
Taxi Driver
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf
Ace In The Hole
Nashville
Gregory's Girl
Godfather 1 and 2
Usual Suspects
His Girl Friday
Bringing Up Baby
Woman Of The Year
Jean Seberg, Vanessa Redgrave, Simone Signoret, Ava Gardner, Jean Simmons, Lauren Bacall, Ingrid Bergman ...seven so what?
ReplyDeleteEdward G Robinson, Spenser Tracy, Albert Finney...
see 10 altogether. Oh yeah...Ernest Bourgnine and gotta say it Hank...The Vikings...does it get any better? The perfect film. Chucking axes at pigtails
'It's the fuckin scouse thing again...I can smell it a mile of.'
ReplyDeleteYeah yeah yeah...
Gotta love mushroom for being one of cifs supremely funny trolls.. born for the naughty step.
"rest assured I've got nothing against useless, cosseted, middleclass, knownothing streaks of piss whose daddy knows someone at the Guardian".
very funny... specially the streaks of piss bit...
Oh the old Land Value Tax thing. That was a larf. I thought it was radicalchange and Janissary, tbh, but then sexually-frustrated liberals on ketamine with no place to focus their big boy spunkiness all look the same to me.
ReplyDeleteThere's a number of posters I'd like to meet for a convivial drink. And there's a number I'd like to meet for a full and frank exchange of views. Those two are near the top of my B list.
Loony's a good lad, leave him alone, you big bully.
Joe Harker - oh yeh...Did I ever mention that I went to an NUS conference with him back in the mid-80s? Was at Nottm Uni with him, even though he was 6 or so years older, professional student, and vapid as ParisH. Nice enough guy but he typifies all that is wrong with positive discrimination.
I haven't seen bru in ages and I think she's long gone - her profile doesn't even exist anymore - I've just checked. And I did find in my comments that back on 5 Feb I asked Kiz if she'd seen Bru in the Sexist Feminism thread. So she's been AWOL for more than 2 months. Maybe she was just a figment of our collective imagination?
ReplyDeleteMf - you've got 7 actresses, none of whom are Kate, and Spensher Trayshey in your 3 best actor blokes...
ReplyDeleteSo, apart from Inherit the Wind, name a film in which Spence excelled when he wasn't appearing with Kate?
Oh, and apart from Bad Day at Black Rock as well. Tracy was one of the best, but him and Hepburn were peerless.
Hank, re spartacus, have you ever seen the originally deleted scene with Tony Curtis (another stunningly bad performance btw) and Laurence Olivier in the bath? A subtle homosexual seduction scene enlivened by sly talk of eating oysters and eating snails. Strong stuff for 1960, but Kubrik was forced to leave it on the cutting room floor. I believe it's now been added to a fuller DVD version.
ReplyDeleteThe Vikings - not so PC anymore. With a respectful nod to the recent rape threads, in 1958 you could say this about Janet Leigh:
Einar: She said she would kill herself if I touched her.
Ragnar: Ah they all say that. What they mean is they'll kill themselves if you don't.
(Immediately runs for cover from montana, kiz, annetan etc) And with a whimper, I'm fucking splitting, Jack. (what movie?)
The Vikings - one of my favourites. The Longships is pretty good too
ReplyDeleteMonkeyfish - Bitterweed posted just today, so he's still around. Between this place, taking care of the sprog and nursing a migraine (why do I always get them on Saturdays?), I haven't actually read anything on Cif today - just went over there to look for Bru's, and later Bitterweed's profiles.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I can really say I have favourite actors & actresses, per se. "Charade" is one of my favourite movies and I do think Audrey Hepburn was lovely in it, but I've never seen "Breakfast at Tiffany's". I think Ingrid Bergman and Grace Kelly were two of the most beautiful women ever to grace a screen. Can't stand most of the current A-list actresses. And (I know she's not A-list, but) Andie Freakin' McDowell plumbs the full range of emotion from wooden to stiff.
Actors? As mentioned recently, Liam Neeson is about the only one who makes me go all warm and gooey, but I wouldn't watch a film just because he was in it. I've never had much of a thing for actors as heart-throbs. Musicians and athletes, for me.
My favourite movies tend to be comedies: MP & the Holy Grail, Blazing Saddles, The Gods Must Be Crazy, That Sinking Feeling, Clockwise, This is Spinal Tap, Women on the Verge of Having a Nervous Breakdown...
@scherfig - yup, the "do you like snails" scene. Went right over my head tbh. I never got the snails v oysters thing, but then I'm more of a boob man myself (-;
ReplyDeleteTony Curtis wasn't that bad an actor. What about The Boston Strangler? The Persuaders? Jeez, he was Antoninus, the singer of songs. Give the guy a break. If nothing else, he married well and his daughter had great tits.
"And with a whimper, I'm fucking splitting, Jack. (What movie?)"
Chinatown? American Pie 2?
I've met a lot of hard boiled eggs in my life, scherfig, but you - you're twenty minutes. (What filum?)
hank - Dennis Hopper's crazy photographer in Apocalypse Now. Mostly ad-libbed apparently, as they were all out of their skulls all the time.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Curtis did do some good stuff (Some Like it Hot, Boston Strangler, Last Tycoon), but mostly he was bad, and when he was bad he was horrid. His daughter had fantastic tits, but that's never gonna win an Oscar.
That Sinking Feeling - good call, Montana. Bill Forsyth's debut, I think, cracking film. I'd also like to give a big big-up for The Commitments, The Snapper and The Van - Roddy Doyle's trilogy and Colm Meaney's finest 4 and a half hours...
ReplyDeleteAnd The Commitments has the best soundtrack of any film, Tarantino's first two films just behind.
@scherfig - Apocalypse Now, really? I've watched that film so many times, but I guess I always skipped Hopper's stuff. Not a fan, tbh, which is why Easy Rider was a difficult watch for me!
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to get hold of a DVD of Hearts of Darkness, about the making of the film, but you're right about them all being waaay out of it for much of the time. If I remember right, Mrs Sheen divorced MArtin when he got home on the grounds of being a bit fucking bonkers...
Anyway, I've posed you a question and I'm waiting for an answer that doesn't involve google...
hank, not sure what the question is? Please pose it again.
ReplyDeleteRe The Commitments. I discovered several years after the film came out, that I knew Andrew Strong's dad! He had a band in Belfast in the late 70's, no mean singer himself.
scherfig... hank.. what are you drinking?
ReplyDeleteSorry, scherfig, film quote question - "I've met a lot of hard boiled eggs in my time, but you - you're twenty minutes.."
ReplyDeleteKiz - "what are you drinking?" That's very good of you, I'll have a bottle of Cobra thanks...
Hank, can't place it but I'm thinking Bogart? I'll take a stab at African Queen with Hepburn?
ReplyDeleteNot a bad shout, scherfig, but it's Jan Sterling to Kirk Douglas in Ace in the Hole. She also had another top line in the film, "I don't go to church. Kneeling bags my nylons."
ReplyDeleteIf you've never seen it, do yourself a favour and get hold of a copy. Billy Wilder was a great director with a great range, but nobody did dark and cynical as well as him.
ha ha, thanks, hank. I've seen the film, great stuff. I love Wilder - my fave is probably "The Apartment". Shirley MacClaine has never ever been better and Oscars all round! (whatever that's worth). The Lost Weekend and Sunset Boulevard were also top movies.
ReplyDeleteIf you like the "golden age" of Hollywood (which you apparently do), David Niven's two books "The Moon's a Balloon" and "Bring on the Empty Horses" are required reading. It's a fascinating insight into the Hollwood of the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Necessarily coy and sanitized for legal reasons (for example, Niven transporting Laurence Olivier's then wife, Vivien Leigh, "over state lines for immoral purposes" and escaping prosecution, and yet not actually naming her in the book, or somewhat vague casual references to marijuana and cocaine), but you can read between the lines and get the big picture - tremendous fun!
Nice dingdong you had tonight with MartynInEurope tonight scherfig. I personally thought he was being a bit too full of himself but then again him and RogerInUSA have been all over CiF unchallengened in the last few days (especially Martyn, must be raining in Spain or something).
ReplyDeleteyeah, pestinpest. tbh I usually skim over martyn's posts 'cos they just bore me, but for some reason I responded this time. He does have a somewhat pompous style, but not a lot to say really.
ReplyDeleteRogerinUSA, otoh, is adept at funny one-liners, and he gives good link too.
Wheatfromchaffs a good shout, makes good contributions.
ReplyDelete"I do occasionally read the gender wars stuff, and appreciate that Jay spends much of his time fighting off the amorous attentions of those particular ladies,"
I am something of a pin-up in the fem world it must be said(the dartboard variety usually).
Montana - i think the problem with this drunk consent thing is that i can fully grasp the theoretical notion of someone being so smashed they dont really have much clue what is going on and that theoretically they cant really consent or not consent to things. But my real issue is how this is defined in practice? How does Joe Bloggs know whether the girl he's with is drunk in a legal/non rape way or a illegal/rape type way? I dont see any way of making it objective, and the consequent of that is that you could actually be 'raping' someone whilst seemingly engaged in consensual drunken sex (a very, very common thing). Its because of this subjectivity that i cant really get past feeling that if people choose to get drunk, they must take legal responsibility for their actions in terms of the law (which is currently the case for everything except rape).
Also, i suspect the real outcry over the security guard case that kicked it all off (or whichever one it was) was because for idealogues the ruling could be seen as supporting the idea that "drunk women are fair game". Some people say this and what they mean is if they are forced into sex when drunk, tough luck, and i can fully understand the desire to rid the country of such callous stupidity. But, i think to then change the law so it covers drunken consensual sex is just another crazy ballpark altogether. I think its another case of ideology trumping reason - nowhere else in law do we absolve someone of responsibility because they chose to get shit faced. What was intended to get 'rapists' has in fact seen Mr Bacon charged with rape.
If the girl is so drunk she is not responsible for her actions, why cant the rapist say "i was so drunk that im not legally responsible for my actions"? We are introducing an imbalance in the law, one drunkard is legally responsible, one wasnt.
Yep Speedkermit is often good too, some interesting and funny posts.
ReplyDelete"Fairness would dictate that either both accuser & accused would receive anonymity until the case is concluded, or they would both be named from the outset."
I agree. Though i wouuld go for both anonymous until proven guilty - if you are legally innocent until guilty you shouldn't have your face splashed across the media with "rapist" all over it. The amount of damage even to those found innocent is probably pretty large. But, if you name both from the outset you certainly make it more difficult for women to come forward, so i think both anonymous has to be the way forward.
"How do we go about "inviting" people like Pikey (who's been here and apparently choosing not to come back), Ultima,"
Ultima? She is a spiteful compulsive liar. I have totally lost patience with her, i've had enough. She has a loathing for me which really wouldnt be out of place if i had gassed her whole family and then pissed on their ashes.
Sarka - always welcome.
"And The Commitments has the best soundtrack of any film," - agreed.
Hank, quality rant earlier. Just wanted to say, though, that I met Pikey, briefly, at the cambridge Convention on Modern Liberty, and he seemed like a nice enough chap.
ReplyDeleteI quite like him on CiF, which annoys me sometimes when he's off on his anti-welfare rants. I agree with him more or less completely on issues like id cards, extreme porn and internet censorship, and disagree with him completely on many other things. I suppose it's that political compass thing - I'm a left-leaning liberal, so I find I do have some areas of common ground with right-wing libertarians.
Which is something I never thought I'd ever write back in 1997.
Jay - I don't think we disagree on the drunken consent thing. I did say that I think the default assumption for a woman, when she wakes up in bed with a guy she doesn't remember having sex with, is to assume that she agreed to it and hope that she enjoyed it while it was happening. I can't see how you can claim you were raped if you don't remember it, TBH.
ReplyDeleteUltima - no, I really don't want her here anymore than you do. Myself - I've not been too worried about who makes it here and who doesn't. I've quite enjoyed Caressofsteel on the Tanya Gold thread (how bonkers has that been?), and someone I've never seen before and can't recall at the moment, but I'm not familiar enough with either of them to know.
Montana
ReplyDeleteYeah i think we are largely singing from the same sheet i was just stating my position (i probably sounded more confrontational than i should have done, too much time on cif...)