15 April 2009

Fight the Power!

Too many good Cif contributors are being banned.  Comment is free, as long as it doesn't offend the sensibilities of the moderators.  The truly frustrating thing is, there doesn't seem to be any effective means of protesting these decisions.  Sometimes we don't even know if someone's been banned or if they've just drifted away.  One thing we can do is to keep a record of the Cif posters who've been silenced by the arbitrary whims of the powers that be.  You'll notice just to the right a new feature - a "Roll of Honour" list of Ciffers who've been banned.  I've put the four most recent ones on the list.  Please comment below with names of other Ciffers who should be remembered here and I will add them to the list.

BTW - Nemesis isn't on the Roll yet because his profile is still up.  Nothing posted since 29 March.  Anybody know for sure that he's been banned?


  1. Hi, I've been commenting on CiF, as Le Dingue, for a few months. I've come to 'know' a few others. One of my favourites was WML.
    I posted on Andrew Brown a gentle query about WML and my post was erased (not moderated, but deleted completely). AB could have replied in some diplomatic way...
    Any background on this? He seemed a decent sort and had a certain charisma.

  2. Le - I think we're all a bit puzzled by Woolly's disappearance. Even those who disagreed with him found him endearing and no one here seems to recall anything particularly inflammatory. That's just the point - really good people are getting banned - not just put in pre-mod, but banned for no apparent reason and anyone who questions it seems to incur the wrath of the mods, themselves.

  3. As a questioner... well ooh err...!
    I got my first ever modding off of Mad Bunting (as WML called her) had nearly 400 recomms too. Got up at lunchtime, had a look to pamper my ego (well don't we all like a few clicks?) and 'poof'.

    And what, in Goebells' name, is "being put in pre-mod"? Sounds a bit Orwellian.

  4. In case you're wondering... I was bemused by WML's disappearance, it just tweaked a neurone somewhere... so I googled him. This blog came up on the 14th & last page of results.

    You've added a new dimension to my procrastination activities with CiF.

    After I got modded by Maddie I noticed that my post had been copied and pasted (from page 1 to somewhere in the middle), and I even then re-posted it again as part of a whinge about it being deleted. That was in Bunting's Atheist Foghorn article that got 1500 or so comments. Neither of the re-posts was deleted so I supposed that MB just wanted it off the 1st page as it had got 'too many' recommends.
    I was thinking about creating a new profile "Atheist Foghorn" or "Foghorn Godhorn" or somesuch but now I'm feeling paranoid!!

    Anyway, glad that you created this blog, and that I found it. Discretion guaranteed!
    Laters, Le Dingue (or Dave)

  5. Well this gets weirder and weirder. I got one through this morning on the John Harris piece about Phillip Gould's daughter...

    #I'm a parent and like any parent I want a happy, secure and hopefully successful future and career for my children. Lord Gould is simply doing what any other parent would do in the circumstances: using his contacts and influence to ensure his daughter's rightful passage to political power and influence isn't dogged by the usual irritating obstacles.

    Obviously in Georgia's case questions of competence, conviction, suitability or winning a free vote etc pale into insignificance when set against the needs of a 'progressive future'. To ensure that this country continues to be governed to the highest possible standards, we need a de facto progressive, political aristocracy; it would prove the perfect compliment to the liberal media aristocracy which is already in place.

    We have been blessed with a golden age of left-liberal politicians, commentators and pundits over the last 15 years or so and it is only right that their children are handed the baton; that's how progressive politics operates; the alternative is fascism or anarchy. Be warned: any cry of nepotism, favouritism or patronage when aimed at NUlabour or the Guardian plays right into the hands of the BNP.#

    I was so sure it wouldn't make it that I immediately reposted it a "captainlard". Both made it through! I was just about to email them and get all stroppy in sympathy with hank to get myself banned. Not sure what I should do now..pre-mod is simply unacceptable and presumably they'll be watching "captainlard" now too. I think what's needed is a system where new aliases are easier to spot. For instance, I might go for names which include a prime number and a vegetable for instance.

    Carrot53fish...17Cabbageboy etc.

    Obviously, these are for illustrative purposes and it won't actually be prime numbers and vegetables...that would just be silly.

  6. Then this...Breakingfree asked..


    15 Apr 09, 9:38am (28 minutes ago)
    15 Apr 09, 9:40am (26 minutes ago)

    Are identical postings under differnt names - WHY?#

    My reply...

    #Posted as monkeyfish in error. His scurrilous shit stirring rarely makes it through pre-mod and so I immediately reposted as captainlard ( a much more reasonable guy) to get it past the censor. Guess what? They both made it through...must be someone's first day on the moderation desk. Probably a young Bunting or Toynbee fresh from college and unaware that nepotistim carries any negative connotations. They probably looked at the post and nodded sagely before posting it.#

    Watch this space

  7. "Captainlard" has had his posting rights withdrawn. His comments have gone too. Strangely, monkeyfish remains. Monkeyfish is a little irked at the captain since he appears to have been banned forever after only 6 posts! (is this a record?)

  8. I know this has had zero effect in the past, but there's an open thread at the moment, so everybody should post a comment about moderation. Cif will at least be forced to notice that moderation is still an issue, no matter how hard they try to ignore it.


  9. Alas, poor captainlard! - I knew him, monkeyfish; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy. .... where be your jibes now? your gambols? your songs, your flashes of merriment, that were wont to set the table on a roar?

  10. Ha, I saw a post from the good captain yesterday and thought I recognised the style!

    Very appropriate quote scherfig - our very own Prince of Denmark.

  11. Yeah..it's a shame about the captain...shot down in his prime just as he was carving a distinctive voice. He was going to make a few pertinent points about that bourgeois, counter-revolutionary HankScorpio. Like why it took them so long to get his brand of abrasive sophistry off the good captain's interweb.

    Been listening to the Hillsborough stuff on the radio this morning...doesn't matter how heartbreaking some of it is, it still makes me more angry than anything. I'd be calling for another public enquiry but what fuckin good do they do? The right voices never get a hearing...maybe cif could learn something from that...

  12. Monkeyfish's profile and comments have gone. Not even a fuckin email...not even a "thanks for all the hard work"...not even "we wish you well in your next post"

    Miserable fuckin bastards

  13. You know you're banned, mf, if the posting buttons don't come up on the blog pages. Have you checked yet?

  14. That happened to me once Hank - it was a glitch. e-mailed them and they just thanked me for telling them about it!

    It was corrected!

    So it isn't always so.

    I've only been deleted once and that was for commenting on a deleted post. They don't always do that and its really frustrating if you missed the original post!

    I suppose its my posting style - too many years of smarming local councilors into admitting that yes they are cutting zillions of jobs in that service!

    Works a treat! every time!

    They are put off guard you see...

  15. Yeah it's not there. After I sign in there's no 'post comment'. It's all over...sob...it's just that it was such a slow lingering demise that it's a relief more than anything. I think next time, I'm going out with a bang..no more premod for me...new name straight away. Once you're premodded and your card's marked that's your lot. Time to move on, anything else is frankly demeaning and collaborationist.

    I think I'll go for a theme rather than a name so I can move on and stay recognisable ... Simpsons characters...fascist dictaors...anagrams of Tuscany..that sort of thing. I think I'll leave it a while though.

  16. See you're just giving me false hope now, annetan! My userprofile is "not available" either so I've accepted my fate.

    Like monkeyfish says, the writing has been on the wall for a few weeks now. Pre-mod used to be negotiable and possible to escape from but it seems that it's just a game for the mods now, they leave you there permanently until your patience snaps and you give them the excuse they (don't really) need to ban you completely.

    Pleased to say that I leave with my head held high and no grovelling emails to the mods begging for my release.

    As far as Hillsborough's concerned, yes I was there annetan (you asked on the earlier blog) but up the other end - I'm a Forest fan. Like monkeyfish, I'm not sure what good another public inquiry would do now, too long after the event and the coppers responsible will all have retired long ago.

    Depends what sort of justice the families are looking for, I suppose. If it's simply a verdict of death by misadventure/manslaughter, an official recognition that the police got it wrong and that the fans were blameless, then Taylor pretty much said that anyway.

    If they're looking for punitive justice, ie some of the top coppers going down, well sadly it ain't gonna happen.

    I'll be thinking of them later, as I have been a lot recently, and I hope that the families can find peace at least.

  17. Hey monkeyfish,

    Go for anagrams of Tuscany!

    I'm using my (so far) un-premodded status to stage a sit in on the "what do you want to talk about?" thread. Thinking of giving up on CIF anyway so if I get kicked out it'll make my decision for me!

    Solidarity comrades!

  18. A suitably Shakespearean obituary for monkeyfish, Rosencrantz to captainlard's Guildenstern (both now deceased):

    --Not that I loved monkeyfish less, but that I loved Cif more. Had you rather monkeyfish were living and die all slaves, than that monkeyfishwere dead, to live all free men? As monkeyfish loved me, I weep for him; as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was valiant, I honour him: but,

    as he was ambitious, I slew him.


  19. And one for HankScorpio:

    Approach me, and thou shalt be as thou wast,
    The tutor and the feeder of my riots:
    Till then, I banish thee, on pain of death,
    As I have done the rest of my misleaders,
    Not to come near our person by ten mile.


  20. Hank

    This is worth a look:


  21. Yeh, that's a good article, mf. Nice to see Hillsborough placed in its proper context with a recognition that it could have happened many times due to the near criminalisation of the working class "yobs" who attended matches in their millions.

    One of the things I always remember was that, an interim reccomendation in the following close season was that there should be at least one ambulance on standby at every match attracting more than 15k (I think) fans.

    The first game of the 89-90 season, I was standing on the open terrace at Forest when an old guy collapsed with a heart attack. There was no ambulance on standby and although a fellow fan gave the guy CPR he died some minutes later where he fell.

    The point is that it took a hell of a long time for any lessons to be learned from Hillsborough and for the authorities to stop treating us like potential criminals and more like human beings. Or customers and patrons as the new breed of club owners refer to us.

    Off to observe a period of silence.

    RIP the 96.

  22. Talking of the disappeared, does anyone know what happened to pen(ilewhatshisface)?

  23. Loving the Shakespeare guys!

    I'm saddened by this the bottom line is not knowing why.

    Just quoting the community rules is not enough. Most of the time I just can't see how a particular post infringes it.

    A newspaper that sets such store by 'liberty' should not behave like some tyranical absolute monarch. It makes the name of the site very hypocritical but on the site its just not true.

  24. "Talking of the disappeared, does anyone know what happened to pen(ilewhatshisface)?"

    Nope, not seen him for a while, good poster too.

    One thing that caught my cif-gazing eye has been the 'Young Offenders' piece by Rob Williams and it's a classic example of why the Guardian just winds the crap up out of people sometimes ( or me a bit at least ).

    As usual, it's heart is in the right place..the gist of the argument is about helping young offenders build up ideas of working together and achieving goals; something which I'm perfectly fine about, esp if the work involves improving the community from which they're from - for me, that's two birds with one stone.

    So what does this work entail?
    Helping renovate local parks, setting up football pitches, allotments for schools, etc?

    Nope it's a hiking holiday, from the south of France to northern Spain!? I felt like banging my head, when I read that.


  25. Good to see that the recent purge has bypassed such valued contributors as likedthe80's. Here's his comment on the Dave Hill thread - his sympathy for the victim and his condemnation of the police officer is surely worthy of the Guardian's finest liberal values.

    "As it stand this woman looks like she might get away with deliberately committing and provoking a crime and in the process damaging the career of a a police officer. which is a disgrace."

    Makes you proud to be a liberal!

  26. Should have added that it has 13 recommendations. Go figure.

  27. georgiagould only lasted for three deleted posts. If that was you, monkeyfish, please repost here or the phonebox. i only caught the first one.

  28. Yeah...georgiagould was me. The first post was a link to this place to Czarnykot since he was asking where I'd been, the second was a dig at cif along the lines of...if it doesn't work out, Auntie Pol has told me there's always a place for yet another authentic, working class feminist at the Guardian and the third was accusing jb388 of being rather more closely connected to NuLab or Ms Gould than he was admitting. He came back with a cracker...

    #Seriously, how sad is it that I can't express some faith in politics and people's ability to change their communities without being suspected of being a NuLieZanuBore Apparatchik?? You people - the cynics - are the real problem. If only you'd get up off your arses and do something, the Party'd be in a much better state, but no, you'd rather whine - well, then it's your fault things like this happen, not those of us who stay in the party and stay true to our values. Shame on you.#

    That's me told. It's not: the free market; dishonest, entryist, political lightweights; financial deregulation; corporate values or illegal wars that are the problem...it's my cynicism.

    "True to our values" FFS

  29. Monkeyfish I'm tempted to go over and politely ask if its really a good idea to delete posts from a prospective Labour Candidate.

    I really regret not having read her input ;-)

    Loved the posts on the open thread, must go back and see if they are there.

  30. Interesting little postscript to your banning order, monkeyfish...

    The poster who took issue with the double posting, "Breakingfree" is one of the usual time-wasting right-wing trolls who spend most of their time regurgitating tired old nicknames thought up by the Guido spinmeisters - ZaNuLab, Bliar etc.

    I thought she was called Breaking3 though so I checked her profile tonight and her posting history as Breakingfree has a six-month interval between October and last weekend, when she complained about being excessively moderated.

    It would appear that she's using two different usernames herself when the heat's on, but of course the difference is so significant and so ingenious that the mods haven't spotted it.

    She's been quite busy since the weekend, spouting the usual crap about those damned immigrants.

    Thought you might like to know that you were probably reported, and subsequently banned, by a right-wing arsewipe who uses multiple ids herself.

  31. Not too surprising, is it Hank? Hypocrisy is 2nd nature to right-wing arsewipes. I think there's a course you have to take before they let you join.

    Dot - penileplethysmograph hasn't posted since February, but his profile's still up. Just taking time off? Bored? The meds have kicked in? Who knows? It occurred to me that I hadn't seen beatonthedonis for a long time, either. He's been silent for about 3 weeks now.

  32. Emergency thread tip! Don't miss Cool Queer White Glasses. It's an absolute belter.

  33. More references to WML being modded (from me and Whirladervish). Must be a sensitive subject. They don't want the subject of banning to be discussd. They left one from MoveAnyMountain that regrets his demise (on Peter Singer's right to Critise thread, lol) but then he made no mention of censorship.

    I can't help but get a nasty feeling about CiF now. It's as if we're toys not people...

    btw How do you search for a user's profile, except by finding a post of theirs and clicking on their name?

  34. Le, bookmark your own profile and/or comments page eg


    then just replace your name with any other user's name to search.

  35. Mendoza re that hiking holiday thing- it dr5ives you mad doesn't it.

    They would enjoy what you suggest every bit as much, They would get positive feedback from the community for it and it. Alround virtuous circle.

    They did something like that in a town where my mum lived. Kids used to congregate on a piece of unsightly waste ground they were rowdy and left litter everywhere. Someone got a grant and the kids dug it over replanted it. God help anyone who so much as dropped a match stick on it after that! I'll bet it cost less than the walking holiday and they probably enjoyed it more tbh.

    I think some middle class people think that these kids behave as they do because of poverty. So it'll help to give them the sort of 'opportunities' middle class kids get. But thats not what makes middle class kid do less crime. They are more involved with things like school because they can see the point in it. Their parents make more effort too (sometimes too much they do need some space and sometimes don't get it!)

    Many working class kids have nowhere to go and nothing to do and end up in mischief.

  36. "I think some middle class people think that these kids behave as they do because of poverty. So it'll help to give them the sort of 'opportunities' middle class kids get. But thats not what makes middle class kid do less crime. They are more involved with things like school because they can see the point in it."

    The point with middle class kids is that they have something to lose, if they step out of line. How do you reproach someone, who has nothing to lose? Christ, they'd just do it anyway to call your bluff.


  37. I was amazed that WML has apparently been censored (I would have thought he had earned squatter's rights by now). However when I checked his profile all comments were erased (Big Brother style). Whirladervish claimed that Andrew Brown is to blame, though it could just as well be New Militant Mad for all I know.

    Good work with this blog. If people have saved comments, perhaps they could post them here if they get deleted.

    It would be great to have a web-site devoted to CiF deletions. It could become a cult!

  38. MartinRDB

    Free Woolly movement on the "what would you like to talk about?" thread..........

  39. @LeDingue

    CiF contributors don't do the moderation! Neither Bunting nor Brown has anything to do with whatever happened to you. It's a bunch of people in an airless office on a minimum wage, I'd guess.

  40. So Damnthe.. the screaming Prima Donnas are NOT Bunting and Brown but are a poor bunch of YTS yoofs on a pittance?

  41. Mentioning Woolly's name has now gone viral on Andrew Brown's latest, "Nominated for a webby"!
    He'd have to delete half the posts if he wants to keep up his "woolly-cleanse" and seeing as it's on the subject of how great CiF Belief is I doubt he'll do that... but you never know.

    I'm assuming AB was in the execution squad, maybe he wasn't....

  42. Damntheral, I posted the above before I read what you said about moderators vs CiF writers... tsk

    So if discussing banishment is 'illegal' I'd expect the comment section of AB's "Webby" article to be decimated by tomorrow morning.
    Though, come to think of it, I had one reference to Woolly's deletion moderated after 1 am (I looked about an hour later). Maybe thay've contracted out the moderating to some third world country further along the time zones!! Even cheaper than the UK minimum wage.

  43. Hi y'all - thought this link might be of interest to you bunch of renegades. It's Phil Hall's blog about moderation on Cif. You probably know Phil as a both a writer of Cif articles and a commentator on Cif. He posts as Ishouldaplogize

  44. Hmm, is it a coincidence that they've refreshed the "what do you want to talk about" thread just as the old one was turning into a "free Woolly" campaign?!

    Thanks for the pass into the phone booth Montana, I've guested, I'll be posting as soon as I've sorted out a GMail account.........

  45. Just posted there, Dot. It's going the same way as the last one - over half the comments are on moderation. I doubt that it will make a blind bit of difference.

  46. Hi, Pen here, just testing.

    Bored, mostly, I only self med, Montana.

  47. Hey pen! Where've you been?

    BTW I tried talking to a real Turing machine recently, you're either much better than that one, or real!

  48. Oh, Pen, lovely to see you! Self-medicating is the best kind, n'est ce pas?

    (I'm skiving today - my low-grade sinus headache felt like a migraine for the minute it took me to phone in sick this a.m. Two naproxen sodiums (sodia??) later - I'm good to go.)

  49. So AB's article was mostly cleansed of pro-woolly sentiment. Some modded but quite a few 'disappeared'. I wonder how they differentiate when casting their blue pencil...?

  50. On AB MerkinOnParis posted:
    "WML, Khartoumi, and Goodfairy will be well remembered long after some of the nonentities who have been given 'Big Blue C' status in recent weeks and months."
    2 more for the blogroll?
    I suppose we can't tell if someone asked to have themselves deleted...

    Off for the w/e now,
    pace a tutti, Le Dingue/Dave

  51. Hi (again)

    I have been following you guys and dipping in on CiF but it gets sooo repetitive. Plus the recent spate of death modding is off-putting. I don't really care myself, I'm used to saying nothing or being ignored (it comes with the territory)whatevs (poor little me ahhh).

    I found WML a bit dogmatic but so what? I see the AB thread was shrinking rapidly last I looked, if it goes negative we will have witnessed a true miracle!

    Where are any of us, Dot? Are you up to your thighs in water? I do remember using latin squares to sample aquatic biota in an icy scottish burn.

    I still maintain that the meta paradigm is cracking (and not me). Post science for post humans and make all moral agents, including the turing machines!

    Oh, and a thank you to you Montana for this public service.


  52. Hey pen

    I was this morning (up to my thighs in water), being so now would mess up the internet connection something chronic though!

    Hey All

    Do you think if I make all my posts "free Woolly" ones I'll get into pre-mod?

    I don't necessarily agree with him, but as sealion said on another thread:

    "First they came for the rabid atheists......."

    (although I am an atheist, but not rabid: it's been over two years since that bite, and I'm obviously not scared of water yet so.............)

  53. Hello Pen! Hows tricks?

    Wheres the Greek? Havent seen her since Easter, i am being persecuted on the Brooks thread and she isnt here to mediate :(

  54. As you can see, I've added Khartoumi & Goodfairy to the RoH. Their profiles are "unavailable" so either they've been banned or they've given up in disgust. I'm told that Hermine left voluntarily & asked that her profile be removed. I've left her on the list because it seems that leaving at such a point of frustration that you ask to have your profile removed is somewhat similar to being banned. If you think I should take her off - let me know.

  55. Jay - Greece. Orthodox Church. Easter a week later.

    I've been avoiding Brooks - shall I muddle in to come to your rescue?

  56. I like the roll of honour, someone should email the list to Seaton.

    I have resolved the incident myself thank you dear, but thank you for a kind offer, i couldnt be arsed for a row so just apologised (to Ultima!!) and then suggested we get back on with the debate. I did snipe at her to be fair, but she was demanding an apology from someone for a misquote, the hypocrisy just blew my mind. Then 'cminmo' appeared out of nowhere saying how dreadful my "behaviour" was - i had been pretty reasonable for the whole thread, hadnt abused anyone or anything, storm in a teacup. I think someone people just dont like rowing by themselves, so when they see someone else having a go they seize the chance to join in. There is quite a good fem poster i havent seen before though, "flaneuse", or something like that. She's gone on my "good feminist" list.

    Whats she doing at an Orthodox church, is Kiz religious? Good heavens.

    Where's Olching too, i may be moving to iran for a while and think he/she may find it a comical move given my infamous dislike of Islam.

  57. Hi all,

    Actually, Dot, I figured you probably posted from the shore :). Don't seek martyrdom, let it find you. Glad to know tho' that you have been out in the field and not just in the lab or worse, office. Problem for me, Dot, where does field begin and end? I'm always stepping into that river (not waving but drowning/swimming?).

    Jay, I've been avoiding LB's thread too. Should I feel a moral duty? For what purpose? The stats error was caught by you guys anyways and LB fessed up fully. Targets are a problem across the board. Increase the cases and increase the variance (is it category or dimensional?). Change attitudes hahahah, change minds hahahahah.

  58. No the thread is dying now, though some interesting debates, mixed with the obligatory end of thread rows about rows about quotes about misquotes, you know how it is...

    Someone remind me next week i need to make a post thingy here, i have something to seek advice on from the group.

    Anyways, until next week CIF refugees, i bid you a fond farewell.

  59. Love it, pen doesn't need to sign his posts!

    Ah, but martyrdom doesn't cost much pen: getting busier and busier in the field, and won't be around much at all soon, losing Dot on CIF would not be a great loss...........

    Have you all seen the latest on AB: a CommunityMod came on and told us to take it to Heresiarch's blog (i.e. off CIF) WTF?!?!?!?!?

  60. It's all about US, it's all about US. They just don't understand US. Oh by the way, can I tell you what happened to ME on this thread when I got modded ...

    (yawn, ok)

    Yep, how right you are, thank God we're together in this persecution. It's outrageous. I'd call on Godwin if it wasn't a bit, you know, *wrong* to talk about *real* persecution. Anyway, let ME tell you MY story on the moderation debacle ...

    (yawn, ok)

    Poor ol' WML - he's our emblem - it could happen to any of US. In fact if I complain really loudly then you could talk about ME making a stand and perhaps (gasp) getting into pre-mod ...

    (yawn, ok - is it my turn yet? I don't suppose WML might have chosen to self-combust. P'raps he might've been bored with Cif. His act of defiance was to tell them to stuff it. Bit like Our Lord-the-Summerisle wants to do?)

    No!No! WML is a martyr to the cause - YOU BLASPHEMER - how dare you suggest that any one of US has the freedom to remove ourselves. WE're really important - THEY know it and will do anything to suppress OUR really incisive input to the debate - like, teapot throwing, and nepotistic recommendations. WE're their raison d'etre. Stuff the issues about people in foreign countries or suffering on our doorsteps. WE need to talk about how Cif ill-treats US. WE're suffering under the mighty glove of Cif moderation.

    (okaaaaaaaay,if that's how you see it)

    Yeah, fuck off if you don't understand where we're coming from.


    (chorus) ABSOLUTELY - free speech is why we set up this thread.

    Yeah, free speech is a really important issue. Hey, let's go and hide in our *special* members only place and talk freely where *others* can't hear US

    (chorus) yeah, let's be SECRET 'cos WE're special and open speech doesn't apply to US

    We're great aren't WE?

    (say what?)

  61. BiteTheNuts


    But I ask again, who's sadder, the ones whining in circles and slapping each other on the back or the one taking the time to get wound up about it?!?!

  62. Nice to see BiteTheNuts popping in again. Pity that h/she is just a boring one-trick pony.

    Hi pen! Long time no hear. But (a word of advice), if you don't want to get into BTN's bad books, don't post here again - you're not special anyway, and people in foreign countries are suffering so there's really no point in discussing anything else. We're all fucked now, but you still have time to get out.

  63. Hi Dot/all,

    It would be a shame Dot (but who am I to say when I've posted so little?).

    The true revolutionary swims amongst the masses like a fish in the ocean. Come on in the waters fine!

    Community standards and yet so many individual members of that community are disagreeing? Almost makes you want a theory of groups. Whatevs eh guys.

  64. Yeah, well. BTN must take CiF all a bit too seriously? I try not to fool myself that any of this matters (whilst remembering that you are probably 'people' but who knows?).

    It's all me me meme isn't it?

    Ah, people, doncha just love em.

    My time ran out long long ago, Scherfig;it's a funny story but a selfish one so I should stay dumb, not accost you on your way to church or work.

  65. Anonymous, if you ever manage to accost me on my way to church, you can have my first-born and my bicycle.

    BTW - haven't you heard? "selfish" is GOOD here, funny is even better. :o)

  66. Jay: glad you decided you didn't need me - slogged through quite a bit of it and just didn't have the heart to come into it nearly 900 comments in. Do like this Flaneuse, though. No - Kiz isn't religious, but being in Greece, she gets her Easter hols a week later than the rest of us. She's in Corfu - I'd imagine soaking up sun & wine in about equal amounts.

    Dot - don't go!

  67. Your first post was quite funny, bitethenuts. Now you're just trying too hard. Do you really think that believing in free speech means you have to allow everyone to hear (or see) everything you say (or write)?

    "Stuff the issues about people in foreign countries or suffering on our doorsteps. WE need to talk about how Cif ill-treats US."

    Why are you wasting your valuable time here? Don't you have a world to improve?

  68. Scherfig, you can keep the first born but I'll take the bike (the old atomic theory; do you fall over when you stop? Has it gone that far?)

    Shall we share stigmata or compete to fill buckets full of tears?

    Why should I care? Near or far, it's all still distance, it's all a foreign land filled with foreign sound. Bah, humbug.

    How can I be anonymous when I know myself.

  69. Indeed, pen, as Wittgenstein said, "To know know know him is to love love love him."
    And as Aquinas said, "Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, I got all of them buckets comin' outta my ears"
    Consider yourself a cyclist.

  70. Woolly's explanation for his ban on


    Not a huge surprise.

  71. Just posted on Heresyblog re Woolly.

    Hank, Monkey, can't believe you've been banned. I don't know if the young fashos at CiF Central realise that CiF is only worthwhile because of the regular contributors. I told them this the last time I was on pre-mod. I'm now decidedly nonplussed by CiF.

  72. Hi olching, did you have a good break?

    You'll have seen my post on heresycorner. I'm not sure what stage of the grieving process I'm at about the banning tbh. Anger's my default position anyway(-; Have been over there tonight and found nothing of interest so my posting finger wasn't even twitching.

    The backstory to my banning can be found over at the phonebooth. AllyF's got some interesting insights to add, but the bottom line for me is that CiF's not as interesting as it used to be. I'm happy to debate issues with intelligent right-wingers like pikey and Wheatie, but it's been overrun by trolls like breaking3 and worriedblueeyes recently, all trotting out Iain Dale's bollix, and it will only get worse as the sun sets on Blue Labour and the Bright Nu Sunrise of the even nastier party draws ever closer.

    Deeply depressing times.

    Still, if we beat Cov tomorrow, I reckon the Reds will stay up!

  73. Hi Hank, read all the posts regarding this farce. I think I might retire from CiF soon-ish. It was good while it was a debating place. Now, it's just one giant advert for the Graun with very little content, crap 2.0 format, and a Draconian policy towards long-time posters.

    Montana, can you add the following to your roll of honour:

    TheOneWithTheBigHair, Kinsao, and - as much as I hate to see him on anything called 'honour' - DavidTHarryBlog. The other one who I know has been banned, but who was an apologist for all thing IDF was JeremyHP (again a demon from Harry's Place).

    What about those who have been banned, yet came back under different names (e.g. DriveByAbuser, DriveByAbuserPierre, DBAPierre, SzekelyKarl, BratislavaBilly etc...)?

  74. Oh, and Hank, good luck tomorrow...

  75. Cheers olching. And thanks for the "tongue-in-cheek" compliment over at the over place (-;

  76. Will miss you Hank.

  77. Hey olching, still here? Good work on the "open thread". I'm now posting as hideandseeker obviously (-;

    I'm still trawling the threads and came across this beauty by LeCoqSportif about the victims of Hillsborough. At 10.28pm.


    This guy has posting rights still...

  78. @hideandseeker - you're a star, and an unusually good judge. Wasted on cif.


    wasted, ex-cif


  79. Hideandseeker's posts are of course of much much higher quality than those of the now shamed HankScorpio ;0)

    LeCOCKsportif's comment is on a par with EarlOfNoShag's offerings...

  80. Seriously, if the above post from "anonymous" is from hideandseeker, it's much appreciated. I've learned a lot from reading this guy's posts, very clued up about fractional reserve banking etc. Good poster. Keep the faith, hideandseeker.

    LeCoq's post is a fucking disgrace, innit, olching?

    There's a lot of people who post in support of the likes of WML especially, but also me and mf incidentally, who argue that no posters should be banned.

    My default position is that no POST should be deleted unless it's gonna cause the GMG problems on the grounds of being criminal, ie libellous, inciting violence etc, but when you read shit like that you despair about the "free speech" issue, or I do anyway.

    I'd deprive LeCoq of posting rights and his fucking front teeth if I met the twat.

    Which leads us down an interesting road of whether "liberalism" is simply the ability to appear "nice" while being vicious in practice, and whether that's why I lost patience with the hypocritical debating society that is CiF.

    There's a cracking blog to be written about that. Fucking shame that the Guardian doesn't employ any working class journos.

  81. Hank - whatever the comment from leCoq was - it's gone now.

  82. By the way - I don't know why I hadn't done so already, but I just sent "author" invitations for this place to everyone for whom I have an e-mail address. If you accept, you should be able to start new threads. Kiz doesn't seem to know how and I can't tell her, because I don't know whether people who are on here as authors see the site the same way I do.

  83. Thanks for the invite Montanna will sort is asap (busy this am).

    Just occured to me that we could have suggested 'Baa Baa Black sheep (have you any wool(y) )' on that 'Tunes to die for thread.

    Or is that too tasteless? A bit late now perhaps...

  84. Montana, thanks for updating the Roll of Honour...just one thing:

    it's DavidTHarryBlog not HairyBlog (though the latter is funnier).

    Perhaps also add the right-winger JeremyHP and GiyusandTrolls9...

    Can anyone else think of others...?

    Annetan: Cruel, but funny.

  85. Can anyone else think of others...?

    That guy, Matt Seaton, hasn't posted for a while. I think he was in pre-mod so long he gave up and rechristened himself Bite The Nuts.

  86. Hank:

    "The backstory to my banning can be found over at the phonebooth"

    Explain please (I was trying to find out why you have been blacklisted.

    One way to respond to Ci(not)F is to blitz the most prima donna writers with creatively illiterate, sycophantic drivel.

  87. Yes Hank,
    I am indeed that intrepid conspiracy theorist (troofing tin foil hat wearer etc). I have to say that I never thought I'd become so, but that's where the evidence led. I'm just waiting for the Rothschilds and Rockefellers to serve me with the libel summons...
    Good luck against Coventry!

  88. Hideandseeker above

  89. At the risk of being viral - but in the spirit of celebrating a Cif name- I just wanted to share something that I posted earlier on Heresiarch's blog:

    "Just wanted to share this rap with you in honour of WML"

  90. Thanks for all the kind words. Shame I missed the 'Free Woolly' campaign, I wasn't sure whether anyone outside the Militant Atheists would actually miss me.

  91. You might need to add LordSummerisle to that Roll of Honour as he seems to have committed sati (suttee) and burned himself in his own wicker man. http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/lordsummerisle/comments

  92. The Lord was toying with the idea of CiFcide; we'll wait and see...I told him about this place...

    Montana, we can also add 9percentgrowth to the roll of honour. He now posts as Neil Craig on his own and other blogs. He told me he had been banned quite from CiF a while ago (and it's confirmed by checking his profile).

  93. Oh, and Jay, I've told that, despite you fancying the 'tits' off me, I am but a mere mortal male currently 'in love' with a mere mortal female...sorry!

    When do you hear about Iran?

  94. Damn! Only just cottoned on that Hank and Monkey and WML were AWOL on CiF. Thought it was just the silly season, what with Easter n'all.

    Not good news. Now I understand why LordSummerisle was getting a tad miffed yesterday.

    The whole CiF moderation is getting bloody silly now. They seem to do little about the random drive-by nutters and pick on the regular contributors. Makes no sense at all.


  95. Hi BeautifulB - "the whole CiF moderation is getting bloody silly now. They seem to do little about the random drive-by nutters".

    It's certainly a bit perverse and, worse than that, they seem to be leaving the field open to the trolls who have little interest in the core values of the Guardian.

    Toynbee's blogs exemplify how the GMG is cutting the throats of the soft-left media and those who sustain it.

    Pretty much all of the posters on Polly's blogs criticise her, but back in the day there would be an even split between those who criticised her from the left and those who criticised her from the right.

    Read Polly's blog today. It's infested with right-wing bloggers. The left-wing posters have been banned, pre-modded or simply demoralised by the endless onslaught from the useful idiots following orders from Guido.

    If I ruled the Cif World, I wouldn't ban right-wing trolls just because they're right-wing trolls, but I'd make damn sure that I didn't leave the field open to the twats by banning those who pointed up the idiocy of their arguments.

    Ah well, I had a good day at the home of football and a good drink after. Bread and circuses (-;

  96. Jay - Iran????? Is there a joke I'm missing somewhere?

    Just got done reading the Melissa Silverstein bit about Scarlett Johansson. Apparently my curves would be appreciated in Europe. Really gotta move.

  97. Come to England, Montana

    We curvy lasses do alright here. ;o)

    Hank - sounds like you had a good day then. Cheers! (Raises glass of chilean red)


  98. Cheers right backatcha, BB, I'm drinking a very fine South African red (2 bottles for £8 at Sainsburys). Bit perplexed to see that the neck of the bottle proclaims the Saffa vintners to be sponsors of the British Lions rugger buggers. Wtf's that all about then?

    Btw BB, much as I love you, you spelt my name wrong on the Cif defence thread earlier. There's no "n" in Scorpio. Grounds for a retrial there.

    Splitting hairs though. If you and Montana look like Scarlett Johansson, you're both welcome at Hank Towers.

    "Curvy" is better than "bag of antlers".

    Or it would be if I wasn't a right-on kind of guy who's desperate and lonely enough to see past the external stuff to see the inner beauty within. (-:

  99. BB - if you can help me figure out a way to live there legally - the sprog & I will be on a plane faster than you can say Jackie Robinson. Maybe Hank wouldn't be so lonely, then.

  100. This is something I post on the AB thread. I don't know if they'll let it stand.

    Not quite the reaction you expected, is it Andrew? This could be CIF's "WI moment"...

    btw - have you seen the horrible things that some people have been saying about you over at Heresy Corner? Nothing to do with me, honest. You're the fall guy here, since you wrote this ill-advised appeal for votes. The debate stirred up here and elsewhere is about something broader, which is an increasing conflict of interest between regular commenters, who enjoy (by and large) the discussions and those that run the site, who seem increasingly to be retreating into the comfort zone of traditional de haut en bas journalism. Which is a dead end.

    There is dissention in the ranks. A mass defection by long-standing CIFers is now a distinct possibility. Is that really what you want? Here's looking at you, Matt.

  101. We shall see whether there's any reaction from CiF central this week. They must notice that mass defection is on the cards.

    By the way, re the roll of honour: It looks like SilentHunter is back (won't say which name); does that still qualify for roll of honour? If so, then DriveByAbuser and SzekelyKarl ought to be added (although being back).

  102. SilentHunter's back? Did you spot him by his eccentric use of exclamation marks or was it the "liberal" sprinkling of ZanuLab that gave him away?

    Not sure I agree with you about the possibility of a reaction from CiF High Command, olching. Pikey's posted something on Heresy Corner about the last wave of mass expulsions, which suggests that CiF is pretty unreceptive to the mood of its regulars.

    Also, take a look at AllyF's response to me on this point over at the phonebooth.

    @Heresiarch - you might want to think about reproducing your post on the "What do you want to talk about" thread, given that what most posters seem to want to talk about is the modding policy in general, and Woolly in particular.

  103. Hank, yes I spotted him because of his elaborate use of exclamation marks and smileys and long spaces............between............WORDS!!!!! >:0( (and the ZaNuLab...........BASTARDS!!! bit as well)

    Yes, I read Pikey's post on Heresiarch; I suppose he has a point. In the end, all they rely on are clicks on website.

    Anyway, currently avenging Monkey's death at the hands of Breaking3/Free...

  104. On HeresyCorner that is, not on Heresiarch.

  105. Olching

    I'm starting to think that a mass defection is exactly what they want. I don't think they can stand it when the editorial line is put under the microscope and attacked with cogent,coherent argument. I think that was WML's problem.

    The Guardian has clearly adopted the fuzzy, all inclusive approach to religious debate: the existence/ non-existence of a deity is no longer of any importance. 'Spirituality' in it's warm, comforting sense is seen as under threat from the militant atheist crowd and they don't find this acceptable. To counter this they have tried to give their position an intellectual underpinning. This basically consists of writing off the atheists as literalist, Philistines, lacking the subtlety and intelligence to appreciate what this fuzzy warmness has to offer. Further they have tried to establish that there is effectively a community of faiths which in some way acts as a force for good in the world.

    Unfortunately, WML just got too good at taking a pin to this particular bubble and exposing the vacuity, moral cowardice and intellectual dishonesty behind this. Basically, he was making Brown and Bunting look stupid; he had to go.Clearly they can cope with the less nuanced "There is no god so shut up " crowd just as right wing trolls provide the background noise and even a justification on some of the political blogs. Similarly,attacking the Guardians political line from the left does you no favours either.

    I think they'd like a situation where debate is divided strictly along what they would describe as 'progressive' / 'reactionary' lines. The progressives faction consisting of posters who view the Guardian as the ultimate 'oracle' of left-liberal orthodoxy and the reactionaries being the Guido crowd. Threads could then safely roll on with a bit of mudsling between the posters and the odd "excellent article" or "complete rubbish". Naturally there would be no dissent from the official 'progressive line' and any disputes could be settled with a decisive intervention from Seaton or the contributor.

    The arrogance,presumption and control freakery on cif at the moment would almost make one suspect that it's been handed over to Mandelson lock stock and barrel for a final throw of the dice.

    Where was SilentHunter by the way? I sorta miss him >>:o( Have they given him his country back yet?

  106. (aside)
    Hey, Montana - thought you'd like to know that Terry Hall has just had a memorable quote mention on Cif

  107. Hank

    Belated congratulations on the Coventry result. Said it before: the premiership needs Forest, always was a good day out.

    Tell you what pissed me off this morning. Catherine Bennett finally laying into Draper. He was a self-evident catastrophe in the making as soon as he returned. Why have they waited til now? A nod from Number 10? I've been pre modded before now for attacking Draper. Presumably for being off topic while slagging the useless fuckwit. He is a case in point though.

    This "play the ball, not the man" is all very well but it's not possible to take the guy seriously because of his background. The idea that you simply engage with his 'argument' is ludicrous since, regardless of the content, the major flaw in what is written is that it is written by a known cheat, liar, fantasist and fraudster.

  108. Cheers mf - I don't often make it down to the CG these days, a combination of the smoking ban and the piss-poor football since Paul Hart's demise but it was a proper game yesterday and a decent crowd.

    Good luck to your boys this afternoon.

    Bennett's column was well-aimed but long overdue, like you say. It would be interesting to know how independent the GMG's editoral line is. The attack on Draper looks like a classic case of Mandelson spinning to hang a couple of expendable drones out to dry, and shifting attention away from Brown and himself.

    Which thread is silenthunter on, olching? And where are you and Breaking3 going at it? I've read most of the op-ed pieces now, even forced myself to read Cohen's bilge in search of the action...

  109. Btw all, the best entertainment is to be found in Azahoth's posts on various sites, particularly the little gem "I'm drunk but I can still speel"...

  110. An idea that occurs to me - and it would really piss them off - is something along the lines of Labourist. Steal all their content and allow unmoderated discussion thereon.

  111. The Heresiarch said...

    An idea that occurs to me - and it would really piss them off - is something along the lines of Labourist. Steal all their content and allow unmoderated discussion thereon.

    Well, Atomboy set up something called http://politicalnewsblogs.com/ which is still fledging at the moment, but I think it has promise. As long as you are a member you can post "above the line" as it were and add content. Perhaps this could be a viable alternative to CiF given the current daftness of their position?

    Montana - the UK has gone over to a points-based immigration system similar to Aus and other countries. I could take a look at it for you though. How old is the little 'un?


  112. @Heresiarch

    I toyed with the idea of doing this a while back. It would be technically feasible - but the bandwidth and risk of (c) breach put me off.

    Despite being a not too controversial nor regular poster I still managed to find myself getting pre-modded. A pain, but couple this with the ban-frenzy and I'm quitting.

    Thanks y'all for the reading and stuff


  113. A mention perhaps for donge.


  114. Olching,

    Im confused now, have i mistaken you for a female? If i have please excuse me, my memory is probably the equivalent of an 8 year olds. Well i got a response from the firm nearly straight away, "we have no positions for you" - which was a bit of a shock after my friend assured me it was in the bag, but got an email from him this morning saying he's trying to sort it so fingers crossed. The heat is my main fear. And cockroaches.

    The WML thing is still quite shocking, i think the NewLabour ethos has crept into its biggest cheerleader, the Graun. The treatment of 'the people' is right out of Jacqui Smiths book on charm and reason.

    Montana - no joke, if i get offered the job i think i'll go, only for a year or so. You should come over England though, im sure you could get teaching work.

  115. I think God banned donge though - you can't really blame the Mods for that.

  116. @monkeyfish - cracking stuff, really pleased for you and your boys! Hope you're still wearing your Fellaini wig down the boozer and having a good piss up (-;

    On a related note, just seen that our beloved Home Sec is seeking to have the police files on Hillsborough released ten years earlier than would be usual under the Official Secrets Act.

    Good for her (for a change), but how the fuck does it happen that those files weren't made available to the Taylor Enquiry in the first place anyway?

    @BB - how's your constitutional law? Any idea about how this scandalous situation could arise?

  117. Hi pikey, think I'll pass on the ShankCopious idea but thanks anyway. I'm in no rush to go back but I was toying with the idea of ConanTheLibrarian. What do you think?

  118. This comment has been removed by the author.

  119. Jay, no worries. Hope Iran works out (if that's what you want).

    Monkey, congrats, but what a shite match.

    Hank, all my posts regarding Breaking3/Free have been deleted (and SilentHunter has come back as...check the phonebooth for the name, which is why I deleted my previous comment...in case we're being 'spied on' [paranoid]).

    Oh and congrats on yesterday's result (and I suppose today's East Angular derby...).

    Pantou, welcome and good to see you.

  120. Parallax: Thanks - I'd have missed that. *Sigh* You know my obsession well. I think my Tezza's exactly the sort of artist who would most benefit from getting away from the big record label model of distribution. 'Course, he's well overdue for another solo effort & the Specials reunion is going to put any possibility of that into the region of another year or so, at least, but a girl can dream. (I'd actually much prefer new solo stuff to new Specials stuff, but I may be in the minority there.) Just saw that Everton beat ManUtd - Tezza's not a happy man right now.

    BB - My son is 9. Click on my profile & e-mail me there. I'll tell you a bit more about my 'qualifications' (as such), if that would help you figure out my chances of getting approved. I can't tell you how much I'd appreciate any help.

    Azathoth had some great stuff in the Bennett piece last night. He's a hoot.

  121. @pikey, just seen your post on the open thread. I'm touched, but then you knew that anyway.

    You mentioned over at Heresy Corner that you feel a bit guilty because you might have been banned yourself if you weren't in the privileged position of being a paid contributor.

    Don't let the guilt get to you or jeopardise your work on my behalf, Frank. I appreciate you taking a bullet for me but, much as we differ on pretty much anything, I wouldn't want you to lose work/money making a futile stand for me.

    I got banned for constantly questionning the hypocrisy of the GMG, its star journos, its tax avoidance and its censorship of any such criticism, despite its smug claim to be the world's leading liberal voice.

    They won't be taking me back, and there's no point in you getting non-personned for me, WML, monkeyfish or any of the other "disappeared".

    But thanks anyway!

  122. @Montana - Azathoth is, I'm pretty sure, an old friend and a familiar name who might need to be added to the roll of honour. And you're right, he was funny as owt, as they say in Yorkshire.

  123. Montana,

    Re: setting up a new post - when you are signed in, at the top of the page on the right side on the blue bar is a New Post link, simples.

  124. Has donge been banned? His profile's still there. I'll had him to the Roll, if he has.

    @Jay - I suppose the fact that I'm female puts a completely different spin on the prospect of a year in Iran for me. The problem for me with teaching is that I'm not a certified teacher. I have a BA in English (Med/Ren Lit was my focus), but no degree in Ed. In my job, I've done almost everything that the certified staff do and (if I do say so myself) I'm a better teacher than at least half of them, but I don't have that crucial piece of paper. Don't have two years and the $ to get it, either.

    Hank - Is everyone from Yorkshire charmingly eccentric?

  125. add, dammit, add. I'll add donge to the Roll if he's been banned.

  126. montana

    I think donge passed away last year - I only got that info from another poster and I can't remember who it was or whether it was confirmed.

    I have emailed you with some info re: emigration.


  127. Original Thanks. That's there for me, too, but as the 'admin', I also have a link 'customize', which I'm guessing you don't have, that lets me change the template & add stuff like the Roll & all that (I could also 'monetize' the site, if I were that craven. No desire to subject anyone to ads, though.) Just didn't know for sure how the contributors' view of the page differed from mine.

  128. Montana - yeah if i was female i have a feeling i wouldnt be quite so keen....

    You can do 1 years teacher training on the job here now, if you have a degree, some of my friends doing it. You do one year in a classroom learning on the job, and at the end of the year you're a qualified teacher. You should look into that maybe. Yorkshire? Outrageous....

  129. "Is everyone from Yorkshire charmingly eccentric?"

    It might be an idea to familiarise yourself with the South of England before you consider taking on the barbarians of the north (cannibalism is still rife in Yorkshire).

  130. Ah, yes, Montana, Sisong just TehranKid mentioned on HeresyCorner; she [TehranKid] should most certainly be added to the Roll of Honour.

  131. Jay - point me in a direction of how to find out about the teacher training thing - I'd love to do that. Even in Yorkshire. (Yeah, but I think my friend from Bradford only resorted to cannibalism on special occasions.)

  132. Montana -


    try that, its called the graudate teacher program, GTP. I had to do a little Q&A session to get to that page so if you cant click it direct go here to the main page and look around:


    (Bradford is a cannibalism hotspot, i would have to be paid a bankers salary to set foot inside the place)

    Olching - tehrankid got the chop? When was that?

  133. Nowt wrong wi' Yorkshire tha knows, Jay.

  134. Montana - also if i was you i would look for a contact email on that site, im sure there will be one somewhere, email them, explain your situation and experience and they can probably tell you what you can do.

  135. Yorkshire did produce Geoffrey Boycott and for that it deserves respect. Is the Lake District Yorkshire? I havent been that far North of the Watford Gap for many a year.

  136. Jay, must have been a while ago; last year I think. I think they commissioned her as a writer for a blog and then David Toube from Harry's Place (and on our Roll of Honour...regardless of him being a vicious bastard) lobbied Matt Seaton to sack her, which also resulted in her ban. Brutal stuff, and she made the place interesting (which is why - despite wanting DavidTHarryBlog on the Roll of Honour - I don't mourn his 'passing').

  137. Hi olching, just responded over at the phonebooth. Very interesting. (Wish I had a white cat to stroke atm.)

    @montana - not sure all Yorkshire folk are charmingly eccentric. In my experience, they say what they like, and they like what they bloody well say.

  138. Is the lake district in Yorkshire? Course it bloody isn't, the lakes are in the NW!
    But we have do have moorlands, the dales and some amazing caves.
    We also produced Yorkshire pudding and Wensleydale cheese

  139. Yeh, olching, regarding DavidTHarryBlog and others, I'm a bit conflicted about the Roll of Honour thing. I know that the point is that we should all be celebrating free speech and all, and that we don't like to see anyone being banned, but not sure we should "honour" the likes of silenthunter. Maybe Montana could have two separate memorials, the honoured and the (more neutral sounding) departed.

    I would like to nominate Tom Frank for the memorial though, montana. Most probably won't remember him, but reading his posts a year or two ago really got me interested in CiF and led to me signing up.

  140. Hank
    I'll admit that we Yorkshire folk are a bit gobby!

  141. Not sure about the two-tier system, because there are probably 'borderline cases' where we'd start to disagree and so on.

    So for the record: DavidTHarryBlog is a bastard (but because we're nice we've added him).

    What about GrandOldMan? He didn't get banned, but sort of 'retired' two years ago...

    Anon, are you Nemesis? Hi there, if yes; it's all about Nemesis tonight :0)

  142. Anon is BB, she's just too bloody lazy to sign her posts. £75 an hour does terrible things to a person...

    Isn't GrandOldMan now GreatGrandDad?

  143. Ah, you Beauty...sorry, thought you were Nemesis (Yorkshire rant etc)...

    Hank, GOM is not GGD. GOM ised to post very long historical essays on CiF, but stopped posting in summer 2007; apparently he was moving down my way and was going to take time out. Haven't 'seen' him since...so Montana, add him to the list...

  144. Hang on a minute, olching, the roll of honour is to commemorate the banned, not those who moved to Brizzle and either drowned themselves in scrumpy or discovered that the outlying villages had no leccy, let alone broadband connections (-;

  145. No it wasn't me! I haven't posted for ages! (Been watching telly). Dunno who the other anon is.


    And I wish I did get £75 an hour. Sometimes I do, but not often. Sigh.... :p

  146. What about donge? He sadly died, but should be added, no? I fear the same might have happened to GOM...

    Enough slurs on the Westcountry, already; it's gone so 21st century ;0)

  147. Okay, donge and GrandOldMan are up there. Could've sworn I'd added donge earlier. ??

    Jay - I'm so excited right now, I'd plant one on you if I could. Had a poke around that site & it looks like Americans can apply for the programme. I've already e-mailed 3 of the EBITT providers for information/advice. (Two in the Midlands, one in Kent. I'll probably e-mail a few others tomorrow. The wider I cast my net, the more likely I'll catch something, right?)

    My Cornish great-grandfather is staring at me from the wall and he seems to be telling me that I should join Olching in defending the Westcountry. 'Course, that icy glare could be telling me that he can't believe I'm consorting with Sawsneks - and that I want to live amongst them.

  148. Good luck montana! See y'all in a few days folks. (-;

  149. Bollocks. I misconstrued your posts and went off with the idea that we were all committing to a weekend of mass defecation rather than mass defection. Last couple of days have been an absolute nightmare.

    Can't believe the modding madness. Power to all.

  150. Olching - brutal indeed, Cifs dark underbelly is being laid bare. Vicious bastards.

    I had a feeling Lake District wasnt Yorkshire but wasnt sure, its somewhere 'up there'....

    Yorkshire pudding is probably the greatest British food there is, a close relative of Toad in the hole (which really is gods creation).

    Hank - i quite liked some of silenthunters stuff, made me laugh on occasion. The danger of having a two tier system is who decides who is worthy and who isnt? I think we should stick to remembering the fallen regardless of our views on them, even if its Ultima that gets banned...

    Montana - looking good then, it should be easier as well since you have taught already. Keep us posted on the progress. I would go Kent myself, simply because anything above the Watford Gap is officially 'North' and the North is rife with cannibalism and even more rain sodden than the South. And London is easy from Kent. I dont think you are suitably afraid of 'the North', Montana, but move down South for a few years and you will learn to fear the barren wastelands of the darker territories.

  151. Jay thats not fair! Some bits of the North are stunningly beautiful ;-)

    Here's a map that shows that the Lake District (in Cumbria)in quite near North Yorkshire. (Hope this works!)
    http://www.picturesofengland.com/mapofengland/counties-map.htmlSo you subscribe to the anything north of a line between the wash and the Severn estuary being 'north' Jay?

    That line would include Wales I suppose! But the we are even more dark, mysterious wild and er wooly than 'oop north'. Its all those sheep!and the fact that over a quarter of us have an alarming tendency to speak our own language (that figure does notsadly include me)

    All that suspicion of the north is Norman guilt of course! Billy the conk was rather horrid to the north of England. But that was nearly a 1000 years ago I think they've almost forgiven you now! Mind you as someone said you can't be too careful...*ducks*

  152. Hi Montana - so you have Cornish ancestry!

    have heard of the Cornish national Anthem?
    You can find it at
    http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/culture/song-western-men.htmMany of the cornish consider themselves a nation and a celtic language called Cornish(which is similar to Welsh) was spoken there until recently and they are trying to revive it. Its as mysterious wild and wooly as Wales (although probably not as many sheep!).

    My favourite Cornishman was Richard Trevithic inventor of the beam steam engine used for pumping water out of the tin mines.

  153. I do actually quite like the North, annetan, you northern monkeys are good folk. I could just never live there i dont think, but then again i am from one of the most southern cities in Britain.

  154. Calling all nerds. Does anyone else have problems getting into the phonebooth using safari or IE? It only works for me with Firefox, and then with some difficulty.

  155. "All that suspicion of the north is Norman guilt of course! Billy the conk was rather horrid to the north of England. But that was nearly a 1000 years ago I think they've almost forgiven you now! Mind you as someone said you can't be too careful...*ducks*"

    Wasn't it about 1 in 3 (or 4) people killed, because of the Norman suppresion of the North? I think it has been stated the worst massacre to happen in the British Isles.


  156. BrianW thingybob has responded about Woolly on the what do you want to talk about thread.

  157. Hi Guys (Pen here)

    I'm being pre-modded! (And, yeah, I know far worse things happen/ are happening blah).

    I had posted (On JWests thread) that 'John Searle distinguishes between ontological and epistemological subjective and objective. But would WML?'


  158. People are getting premodded for mentioning WML now?

  159. I can't really see any other reason, Jay. I've hardly posted, I can't find any other culprit than that and a prior mention on ABs webaliciousness thread that was just as tepid.

    Farcical, speaking of which, Jay, Iran ought to be a doddle after CiF (just a joke :)).

  160. This comment has been removed by the author.

  161. Jay, I just read Brian's post. FWIW, I don't like this banning business but basing a freedom of speech stance on WML is never going to fly. The guy was constantly gratuitously rude and offensive, not only to ATL writers, but also to any other poster who dared to disagree with him. I'm somewhat surprised by the eulogies - sharp, intelligent, funny etc etc. Is it just me, or does nobody else think that he was more a bully and a nutter than a savant?

    That said, his views should be allowed to be heard, but continually calling opponents deluded, lame-brained, insane, stupid etc etc is unlikely to further dialogue and is not a valid mode of discourse. Your own skirmishes with the often vicious ultima should prove this point.

    If the guy can't try to conduct a civilized debate, and express himself like a reasonable person (as you and I and many others do), then fuck him.

    BTW as someone else has mentioned, "Roll of Honour" may not be the best term for the list of banned posters. Honour is probably not an attribute that they all share. No value judgments here, just a semantic observation.

  162. All very reasonable, Scherfig, but i think Woollys abuse was not of the spiteful variety, like some, just a bit crass and heavy handed. And its not just Woolly, thats the icing on the cake really - its just all getting out of hand, they are clamping down on posters far too tightly. They need to calm it all down and try and repair relations a bit - plenty of people been saying CiF has gone down hill a lot lately and i dont think the two issues are unrelated. Regardless of Woollys merits its a shame that anyone who has posted for so long and so much has been banned, but i do see what you mean, it isnt hard to avoid abusing people, but things do get very heated at times, particularly on religious threads.

  163. Jay, there is certainly something going on with the moderation. My concern is that by focusing on the likes of WML, Cif can actually reply "reasonably" to the criticism (eg Brian's post), lots of people will agree, and the bigger picture is then lost.

    You've got pick your battles and fight them the right way. This one has been lost - why was WML banned? Cif answer - he was constantly abusive. Posters: OK, fair enough. Let's move on.

    You might recall that when Cif was totally revamped, there were thousands of comments elicited by the "what do you think" threads. I, and some others, raised questions of freedom of speech, privacy, storing of comments and personal details etc. These comments were totally drowned in eager disussions of new technology, page loading-speed, platforms, browsers etc etc and these concerns were extensively addressed by Georgina et al. The bigger more important questions were totally ignored - and here we are now.

  164. I've just replied to Brian too just hiding behind the community standards is just bureaucratic bollox isn't it?

    To be honest i think that it depends on who you upset. Some people are just too precious and overprotected. they have been top journos for years and suddenly they have to deal with having their 'words of wisdom' challenged! The rest of us can deal with it, they need to grow up!

    I think I'd be banned if I said that on Cif!

    Comment is Free? what a joke!

  165. yes I take your point Scherfig but Ultima hasn't been banned, or has she?

    Yes calling people stupid etc is not really that offensive! Its only his opinion isn't it? we are all grown ups we don't need to be protected from that surely?

  166. The community guidelines are indeed a bad joke. PLenty of the articles, for a kick off, contradict the guidelines. Secondly, thousands of comments contradict them and dont get modified, depending on the topic at hand and which side of the spectrum they come from.

    I recently had a deletion which was quite a good example, i responded to another poster on a fem thread in a pretty short post that simply said there was more to feminism than just a pursuit of equal rights. It got deleted, i emailed mods and asked why. Apparently, they said, it was considered offensive to suggest feminism is more than just pursuit of equal rights. So non abusive criticisms of ideologies the Guardian likes are also enough to get deleted, as any of us "anti-feminists" can testify all too well. The whole thing is a shameless mess and this flurry of outright bans is really the final straw.

    I am also genuinely worried about getting banned though, the CiF team have made their dislike of me very clear and i regularly get heavily modded, put in pre-mod, Seaton likes having a pop at me when he strolls into the fray, so if this is the way they're heading i suspect my days may be numbered also.

  167. good point - if there was a shred of consistency ultima would have been banned long ago - she isnt just abusive she frequently makes up complete vicious lies about people, not just misogynists but also Kiz and Annetan not long ago. She barely gets modded let alone banned. I would say ultima is the most abusive regular CiF has.

  168. anne, we don't NEED to be protected, but have you never given up on a debate in exasperation because every post you and others made elicited personal insult and ridicule? If I wanted abuse, I could go a pub and insult somebody. If I want on-line debate I prefer a modicum of politeness. Rude and agressive on-line behaviour doesn't really hurt anyone, but it achieves nothing and stifles discussion. Look at some of the feminist threads.

    PS ultima has not been banned, but I remember a first-time poster being shocked and astonished by her vitriol on some thread or other. I agreed with this sentiment, my comment was deleted, and the new poster thanked me, said Cif was not for her, and gave up immediately. Dialogue!

  169. Jay, you are rightly distinguishing between "ideological censorship" and simple rudeness/abuse. The problem with the whole WML thing is that the two issues are being needlessly conflated. As I said, you gotta pick your battles carefully.t

  170. Your right Jay some 'comments above the line' are wrongly put and make generalisations about men that I am uncomfortable with. By the same token its not very nice to be told that women always lie etc etc which you do get from some posters. But they don't even get deleted.

    I was actually threatened once 'as in if you met me you'd know what you'd get if you talked like that'. It was a bit creepy that tbh!

    So feminism isn't about more than equal rights is it? I'll have to take them up on that! In fact I'm pretty sure I have (because it is about more than equal rights in a way). There are some things you can't legislate for, you have to change attitudes. I think its the main issue in relationships. There are still some men who have been brought up expecting to get all their own way at home. Its not their fault but its difficult to live with - ask my daughter!

  171. "I agreed with this sentiment, my comment was deleted, and the new poster thanked me, said Cif was not for her, and gave up immediately."

    Classic CiF.

    Fair enough on Woolly though, he did often stray into abuse.

    "There are some things you can't legislate for, you have to change attitudes."

    I think thats absolutely correct, i just wish the higher echelons of the ideology could admit it. It isnt a bad thing in itself to do more than ask for equal rights, but it should be acknowledged.

    "our right Jay some 'comments above the line' are wrongly put and make generalisations about men that I am uncomfortable with."

    Its not just that its a whole range of targets, atheists, believers, middle class, working class, etc etc. It seems authors can pretty much say what they like. The same rules dont apply. Not that i have ever been offended by anything nor wanted it removed - other than ultimas latest smear campaign - because i think when you leave it up you do much more damage to those responsible than you do when you delete it. Idiocy needs to stand in all its glory.

  172. Hi Guys

    I do agree with you for the most part Scherfig. I found WML a pain, arrogant and over certain,but kinda so what? Given the tone and content of many posts etc it is clearly inconsistant and contra 'free speech'.

    Community rules are no more than might is right and the G is just a corporate bod and not a moral agent.

    I am inhibited from posting due to the often aggressive quality of some posts; however, I do not believe the current modding etc gets at this at all effectively. I posted as much because I felt therefore a personal responsibility as part of a broad 'CiF/G' community to act and not just stay silent i.e. be an id-iot. More fool me hahaha.

    I generally don't/didn't bother too much with direct comments re articles unless positive (tho' there areb exceptions).

    Ah well, being pre-modded does dis-incentivise me even more.

    UT's air of outrage is very funny tho'. Another one I got wrong, I guess. Live and learn (or maybe just kick up my heels and die).


  173. Also, the Mary Midgely article is premod for everyone - it says all comments will be premodded - is this a first? I dont recall ever seeing this before.

  174. Yeah, pen, the inconsistency is frustrating. ATL nonsense is obviously allowed/encouraged to break the rules with impunity, but BTL moderation is pretty scattter-gun. The double standards are of course that the articles which seem specifically designed to attract ridicule and abuse, are the ones where the moderators then righteously crack down on BTL comment.

    We had a small discussion here in the early days about deletion, censorship and abuse. But guess what, there hasn't been any! Maybe I could write a controversial, in-yer-face, fuck-you-all article, and if montana posts it we can all test how liberal we are.
    (Better still, get BiteTheNuts to write it.)

  175. Ok, maybe that explains it, I hadn't noticed that Jay, thanks.

  176. Scherfig, I agree with you, almost entirely. I agree that WML is perhaps a bad example of a martyr (Hank and Monkey: much better), and (Montana, think about this) I agree that Roll of Honour is not a good name considering we've got DavidT, JeremyHP and SilentHunter on there (the former two in particular being absolute wankers, let's not mince our words); I don't think they should be removed, see above, but it should be renamed, The Fallen and Forgotten or something like that (perhaps that's too positive, too, maybe just Ex-Ciffers). Hank made this point earlier, too.

  177. Scherfig - I am so committed to keeping this place uncensored that I would let you post an article saying that Terry Hall kicks puppies for fun.

  178. Okay - just changed the list to "The Banned and the Dead". Feel free to suggest something else.

  179. ...."and the Dead" isn't too disrespectful, is it?

  180. Can't remember who it was that was having trouble with the Phone Booth in Safari. I use Chrome at home and don't have any trouble with it. I tell myself that the notion that Google is plotting to take over the world is just conspiracy-theory whack job nonsense to get over any discomfort I have with the company.

  181. Next up - "Terry Hall Eats African Babies" shocker.

  182. I agree with Scherfig that WML with all his strengths isn't a good pin-up for the banning on ideoligical commenting issue. Perhaps someone could develop an ever-so-polite Rosa Parks who sits in the back of the ideological issues bus and gets kicked off.

  183. btw Lord S has just posted on the what do you want to talk about.

    I agree with you about the lack of dialogue This is why I find fewer and fewer hreads I want to participate in.

    Some of the ones on the demise of the LP have been good though. But the feminist ones? Its nice to stop banging your head against a brick wall really! ;-)

  184. "Perhaps someone could develop an ever-so-polite Rosa Parks who sits in the back of the ideological issues bus and gets kicked off."

    I would volunteer but i dont think im quite right for the job.

  185. the fem ones have been rubbish for ages, they really need some new angles and ideas.

  186. Jay 'Let idiocy stand in all its glory'

    Totallt agree with that!

  187. Montana, I hate to sound overly politically correct, but seeing that Donge is on the list, and the fact that I'm going to nominate Cynicalsteve who sadly passed away last year, perhaps (as a last addendum) we could rename it The Banned and the Departed (or to please us Queen buffs: The Nevermores)

    Also, Hank nominated TomFrank.

  188. I have only just read Andrew Browns comments/article on forcing drunk drivers to adopt religion as a condition of getting out of prison. One of the most deplorable things i have ever, ever seen above the line, and that really is saying something.

  189. Hi

    It seems I was caught up in the kettling on the MM thread, just another apathetic bystander, ah well. At least I was not the only one to take it personally.


  190. How is "dead" disrespectful? "The banned and the dead" seems alright to me, and it's Mailerish.

    Or.. los desaparecidos even...

  191. Okay, Cynicalsteve and TomFrank have been added. Name of the list not changed yet. Donge is dead, is he not? (He pre-dates my arrival at Cif, so I don't know his work.) I toyed with something like "The Good, the Bad and the Banned" or "The Banned Played On", but I dunno. Computer lab suddenly crowded. More from home later

  192. So there you bloody all are !! Well I really have no idea why I haven't been banned, feel posiitively left out.

    Got a new job in January and had to behave during the day and not stay up all night eveyr night getting f@cked up, so probably something to do with it.

    CiF lost it's seriousness for me a long while ago due to the poor quality of writing and abysmally self righteous moderation; I seldom expect to get much out of it, and take the piss quite a lot. In fact that's all I do really. Sad about Donge, liked him. Last time he posted to me he said, "I've got my eye on you Bitterweed, don't mind kids but don't like cheeky ones"
    RIP Donge.

  193. @annetan Yep. My great-grandfather was probably a Cornish nationalist at heart. He was 14 when his parents decided to emigrate - his grandfather was killed in a mining disaster and my great-great grandfather decided that no children of his were going to be miners. Grandpa Semmens never wanted to come over here and never became a US citizen. When my grandmother was small, they moved to a town that was a Danish settlement (she grew up in North Dakota, which was still being homesteaded in the 1900s-1910s). Theirs was the only non-Danish family in town and the Danes all referred to my great-grandfather as "the Englishman" which was apparently a bit of a wind-up - she said that he always got irritated and had to remind them that he was not English, he was Cornish. I do know a few phrases of Cornish (went through a bit of a phase at one point in time) - the first two I learned were nationalist slogans: (Kernewek) onen hag oll : (Cornish) one and all andKernow kensa : Cornwall first

  194. Montana
    My mum was born in Bude, all her familly's side were Cornish farmers, and they were, as ministers to yeoman farmers, elastically strict Methodists.

  195. Kernow kensa! Know that one, the Welsh equivalent is Cymru am byth (pr Cumri am bith) or Wales for ever. Btw did you know that 'Welsh' comes from the Saxon for foreigner? Bit of a cheek to be called a foreigner in your own country!

    The wlesh for Cormwall is Cernyw(care new) there is no K in the Welsh alphabet no Q either.

    Quite a lot of Cornish people in S Wales - with names like Pengelly and Penhalurick and Curnow.

  196. Bitterweed how can you be elastically strict? Just curious!

  197. anne, 'Welsh' comes from the Saxon for foreigner

    And Saxon Britain was called Lloegyr (literally "the lost lands".) In modern Welsh, Lloegr means England.

  198. "I recently had a deletion which was quite a good example, i responded to another poster on a fem thread in a pretty short post that simply said there was more to feminism than just a pursuit of equal rights. It got deleted, i emailed mods and asked why. Apparently, they said, it was considered offensive to suggest feminism is more than just pursuit of equal rights." - Jay

    ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

    Yeah that is quite odd when you consider that our Julie had an article concerning Political Lesbiansim?
    I'm pretty sure she was speaking in a feminist context but I'm also pretty sure a persons sexuality covers more bases, than what is contained within the equality debate. A good deal of lesbians, who contributed to that particular topic, seemed to think so too?

    It's a bit ridiclous really, turning feminism ( on the CIF ) into a sacred cow, wont do it any favours whatsoever.



  199. I think its beyond debate that much feminist discourse is about a whole lot more than "equality", and as Annetan says this isnt a bad thing, it probably is necessary as attitudes have to change to, but that said, i still think it beyond dispute that the ideology contains much more than a desire for "equality", and for such a comment to be removed for being "offensive" is just absurd but a very good indicator of Guardian moderation and the partisan nature of it. I will post the email.

  200. Wow- this is like suddenly discovering all the cool kids hanging about behind the bikeshed smoking whilst you've been spending your time playing marbles. Or something.

    I'm quite shocked about all the bannings. I thought people were just being moderation martyrs- but the rumours are true!

    Like bitterweed says:
    "I seldom expect to get much out of it, and take the piss quite a lot"
    My obsession with CiF is seriously waning. I just stick mainly to sarcasm nowadays.
    Every thread seems to become an idiot magnet where the flow goes:
    1) - Read an article;
    2) - Flood comments section with incoherent, tenuously linked, paranoid, and unsubstantiated ranting against 'the left' (imaginary beast much like Michael Moore depicted in Team America) or any of three other pick-and-mix obsessions (e.g. NuLabourFascists has destroyed our way of life, Ken Livingstone is evil, muslims are taking over);
    3) - Furiously recommend any comment agreeing with the above, no matter how self-evidently irrational- this is war: not conversation;
    4) - Rage against all the lefties at the Guardian, despite their almost complete absence after hugely successful implementation of steps (2) and (3).

    Example- the thread yesterday in which MoveAnyMountain said:
    "the British were not notable for their racism before they went to India...Why not make the reasonable assumption that the British learnt it along with curry?"
    I would have thought this a spectacularly stupid thing for anyone to say, but apparently not on CiF, where he has become the Ronaldo of popularist bullshit, and was cheered appropriately.

    Er... sorry for the rant.