I have never in all my years of reading Usenet and web flamewars (that'd be 20 years now) seen someone who claims to be a mature and intelligent man wish colorectal cancer on another commenter. It wasn't clever, ...
I know shooting first, asking questions later, and overlooking the need for comprehension, are your forte, but this is not what I wished on anyone.
Would you care to divvy up evidence to prove your claim that I wished this on anyone, or are you just trolling your own blog?
She may not have got the particular cancer variety right, but i thought i recalled you wishing "bowel cancer" on him, as well as instructing him to procreate with his mother. I do have a very poor memory so could be wrong.
”…I thought i recalled you wishing "bowel cancer" on him, as well as instructing him to procreate with his mother…”
LOL, sounds like a day in my office… but you know what, I just don’t get all this outrage, to be honest.
Monkeyfish and El Cordovan clearly can’t fucking stand each other (yes, even I've picked up on that!), let them have their virtual pagga if they want, they’re both obviously enjoying it. Monkeyfish gets to to wax mighty wroth in his usual inimitable (well, kinda) style, and El Cordovan gets to do his best cack-handed Alan Partridge impression… match made in heaven, really.
Monkeyfish gets to to wax mighty wroth in his usual inimitable (well, kinda) style, and El Cordovan gets to do his best cack-handed Alan Partridge impression… match made in heaven, really.
Hahahahahaha! That's pretty much it. Now a little light entertainment from ...
Who said that Martyn couldn't do humour? This effort from waddya is pure comedy gold:
I don't self-label myself as a feminist, but if feminists want to label me and my views as feminist or even a radical feminist, then I am more than happy to accept that label.
And was only the opening line of a very looooong routine. Watch out, Eddie Izzard! (And remember, all you aspiring Lennie Bruces out there, a big finish is important, but it's absolutely crucial that you're humble as well.)
As for feminist credentials, I don't really seek them, but as one ATL contributor on CiF told me: "Given that you have delivered … arguments that would certainly be considered ‘radically feminist perhaps you should reconsider your choice not to identify with that label!"
Tish, boom. You've been a wunnerful audience. I'll be back in 10 minutes, and then again, and again, and again...
Those 10h01 and 10h04 posts were as good an impression of The Good Soldier Bracken as I’ve seen round here. So here’s some more Bracken-isms for incorporation in your future posts:
Hat tip to you, sir. You dolt. Pusillanimous hand-flapper. Effete liberal apologist. Monstrous carbuncle (he may not have originated that one). Uh huh… motorbikin’
CifWatch? Hasbara? Jeez, do your delusions of grandeur know no bounds, Martyn? Why would those propagandists have any interest in a nonentity like you? Apart from being an effective yet modest crusader for radical feminism, are you a secret Palestinian freedom fighter too? Do they bug your phones?
Actually, to be quite honest and totally off the record, I'm with MI6. You do realise that we consider you a very dangerous man, don't you? Your constant subversive yet compelling utterances on Cif reach a global audience, and that might well bring down the whole fragile neo-con edifice. And we can't have that - you must be stopped, at any cost!
Seems like the Mad Pastor won't be going ahead with his Koran Burning tomorrow.He maintains he's cancelled it because he's been given an assurance that the mosque won't be built on Ground Zero.However that claim has been rejected by those looking to build the mosque who say they only agreed to have talks with him.
Can't believe that tomorrow is the ninth anniverary of 9/11.I was at work that day and i suspect like many people initially reacted with disbelief when the first reports of the attacks started coming through.
I saw the programme Sheff mentioned a few threads ago when it first came out.Think it was called '102 minutes in New York' or something like that.It really did bring home to the viewer the events as they unfolded and the often poignant reactions of New Yorkers as they were forced to face up to the atrocity and its aftermath.
To change the subject completely Harry is looking to replace Fabio when the latter steps down and i personally hope he does.I reckon he'll do a good job.
So when did the Muslim community centre with prayer room become a mosque?
Assuming the plans haven't changed, if having a prayer room makes it a mosque, Roissy Airport has one too, so that makes it one huge temple.
OK Cultural Centre and Mosque/Cultural Centre with Prayer Room-whatever! I have no problems with that.My point was about the cancellation of the proposed burning of the Koran by some deranged 'Man of God'.
"...And if you're gonna join the ranks of the dicks baiting Martyn, just fuckin' do it. Enjoy the lynching. Just don't use it to gob at me as well..."
Nah, not really the lynching kind, sir, just messing about on jankers with a bucket of whitewash, sir. Couldn't really care less who's not playing with who, or whose dad's a copper, or who can piss highest up the wall, or who's got the biggest cock, to be honest.
I was on the Channel ferry with my wife when a mate texted me to tell me about the Twin Tower attacks. I thought it was a wind-up.
Then later, when I watched, I thought, "Perhaps, just perhaps people in the West will now realise the horrors of being bombed. If only some good could come out of this atrocity - an aspiration for peace".
AFAIK There are no plans to build a mosque or even an Islamic cultural centre, on ground zero. However, what chances are there that something similar to a traditional Mickie D installation will be plonked down on that very same hallowed ground?
”…Perhaps, just perhaps people in the West will now realise the horrors of being bombed. If only some good could come out of this atrocity - an aspiration for peace"…”
LOL you provocative scamp. But wait! what’s this I hear – a pair of size 12 Army boots thundering in the direction of that comment…
3 – 2 – 1…
Major Bracken! Major Bracken! Someone "of the left" is saying 9/11 was a good thing! Major Bracken!
1. WTF? 2. The murdering bastards! 3. The USA will get someone, anyone, to pay for this. Guilty or not. 4. Isn't it time for reflection on why this has happened? 5. Fat chance.
IMHO Capitalists societies are essentially sick societies, and the bigger the capitalist, the worse the sickness. Punitive "revenge" on imperialist countries? Probably a no-brainer really, innit.
Yeah, well, I've always been a hopelessly hopeful humanist, otherwise I'd be a trader instead of a communist.
Yeah, well, if you'd become a trader you could be living in France or Tuscany by now. Not stuck back at home, having fun at l'Huma, in Paris (wherever that is).
When 9/11 happened, I was running a market stall in Rotherham for the weekend to get rid of old crap. Everyone huddled round a TV at a nearby stall to watch the news live, traders and customers. I thought it was some sort of accident at first, until the second plane.
Martyn - have you reflected on why it happened? Why do you think?
From what I gather about the tea party movement, I believe that a chimps tea party in which the participants drink from the spout, do backflips on the table and fling their own faeces at onlookers are a more coherent bunch.
"I thought it was some sort of accident at first, until the second plane."
Hello - BW forgot to mention youtube links, other than that i think he covered it. Abuse, youtube and drink.
Anyways, i thought it was a film when i first turned the tv on, then after a while seemed quite real so thought accident, like you, then when the second plane hit, thought "shit".
I remember thinking: 1) Saddam Hussein will be watching this, going “oh fuck”; and then very shortly thereafter… 2) Thank fuck I’m out, because this isn’t going to end well.
I was in Detroit. It was spooky how quiet it was for a week or so afterwards when all the planes were grounded; you don't realise how much noise they make.
Freaked out one night because one woke me up in the tiny hours of the morning, but it turned out to be a military plane circling the city.
I was at home with flat mates, we all got round the tv, when the second plane hit my then gf said, 'Inside job, US now has carte blanche to fuck whoever they like..' I've always liked smart women...
Am having posting probs, and on the new improved cif.. prob for the best as job finishes soon and it's looking like bread and water from November.
I heard the news at 5PM on my way to give an english class in a factory. Three execs and a printer from the shop floor, we found a TV and were glued to it , Ruben was very quiet. Weeks later he told us how the Red Cross found him in hospital where he was recovering from torture and he eventually arrived in france as a refugee. 11 september 1973 - Pinochet
Turm - all right, I've been puzzling over 'afk' for ages now but don't think I've worked it out yet. All fuckin kaput? Nahhhhh.
Leni - saw the news about the coppers, but not the RM. Well, Labour were doing that anyway. It'll be another disaster with shoddy service and higher prices, not to mention the jobs lost.
Pt 1 Just clocked your question about how my little debate with Martyn got started. Here’s how it started . A while back I noticed Martyn had more or less announced that he was bored with the whole ATOS theme and decided to lay down the law about CIF being a no-campaign zone...regardless of the fact that the statement is patently and demonstrably untrue..incidentally Jesicca Reed make a bit of a fool of herself in that regard since two days after making the definitive “CIF does not do campaigns” pronouncement, she absent-mindedly referred to Henry Porter’s long running Liberty Central campaign.
Martyn’s post had a very strange and arrogant tone; almost as though his name was a guarantor of some degree of credibility and prestige...a sort of “so let this be an end to the matter”. Frankly it was fuckin outrageous. Now in our subsequent tussling I once or twice made comments along the line of “just who the fuck are you?”. I’ll admit that was a little disingenuous...his name did vaguely ring a bell, but that was about the full extent of his ‘reputation’ as far as I was concerned...later hearing about his 18000 posts, I realised that the name would inevitably have been slightly familiar but as to the quality or worth of their content, I was none the wiser. And so I reluctantly looked at his profile where I was stunned to see as a sort of motto..a quotation from Terence: "Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto"...general rendered: I am human, I deem nothing human alien to me. Since his actual posts were uniformly bland and non-descript; many simply failed attempts at humour (which I now note he claims he doesn’t do), I decided to use the quotation as a basis for challenging his assertion about ATOS and its relevance to CIF.
Pt2 I asked him why he quoted the line when it seemed as though the hounding of the poor, sick disabled and desperate were indeed alien to him and why he didn’t want their plight discussed on CIF...rather than answer the question (he never has), he sneered that maybe there was something wrong with my Latin (he never elaborated). Shortly afterwards, my post was clocking up recommends as were its follow ups while Martin, perhaps finally realising that his ‘reputation’ only achieved existential status in his own head, started getting a bit stoppy. What happened next was more or less in the Stars...I got banned. [as an aside..nothing I’d said contravened any rules...it just seems I had to go..much like the first time. I know since then a sort of narrative has built up that my posting on CIF was uniform abuse but that version of events only really came into being some months afterwards when another ‘respected’ CIF ‘face’ cited ‘months of abuse’ as provocation for her own moment of madness]
Anyway..shortly afterwards, Martyn started popping on here with his usual blend of whatever it is he blends and I asked him again..this time he simply proclaimed that he didn’t talk to trolls...why would he?..he’s the famous Martyn in Europe.
Anyway, Fuck this I thought..no one impugns my Latin..the rest as they say ‘is Geography’. I hope this clears up any confusion. I noticed earlier that Martyn claims he noticed he was ‘being flamed’ from several directions etc..but I think that this is largely projection based on his bloated sense of self-importance..who the fuck would bother flaming a raving nobody like him?
Pt3 Martyn claims this whole episode is part of a cunning plan, although even he must surely now acknowledge that he has become a laughing stock, butt of innumerable jokes and whipping boy for basically anyone who wants to have a pop at a moron. Reluctantly I must concede that it really isn’t ‘sport’ any more. He’s far too easy a target; possesses no self awareness or sense of proportion and I worry for his mental health. Unless he continues playing the heroic victim or addresses any comment whatsoever to me, I consider myself done with him. This represents a big change of heart and I hope I don’t come to regret it. The problem arises from the fact that essentially, the internet is forever. When you end up having a row, it’s not like having a nuisance neighbours..not like they’re gonna get that job with Siemans, move to Swindon and fuck off out your life...they’re potentially there forever..and so you’ve gotta keep banging on the wall every time they kick off or start playing the birdie song at three in the morning..and really, you should bang harder every time...this is the reason I have to keep sorting out the guy from Scunthorpe. I’m fully aware it seems I’m like a dog with a bone but I only actually have a go at her/him when he/she raise her head again, has a dig or starts playing the noble victim...please feel free to verify this...she starts I respond..disproportionately I admit but that’s fully intentional and the way it's got to be.
Pt4 As it happens I’m not unaware that I might occasionally be the party in the wrong (not, I think in the two cases mentioned) but in the past I have, now and again, fucked up, got the wrong end of the stick etc and when I consider that I am in the wrong I have apologised and said “yep..made a right cunt of myself..very sorry”. As far as Martyn’s concerned, I really think I’m on pretty solid ground when I say the fault is at least 90% his and..even if I am wrong, he can always fuck off to Swindon.
Anyway, I doubt he’ll ever man-up enough to apologise but since his credibility is in tatters and he’s getting ripped apart by every Tom , Dick and Harriet, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. So Martyn, you can take the hint and lay off the insults and victimology...(that doesn’t mean I’m trying to get you to fuck off; I’m a genuine no-moderation type of guy..no modding, no bans no nothing..not that I’d try and stop you..just so you don’t go running around claiming you were the subject of a witch-hunt on the UT or whatever)..or if you want to keep it up..so be it..business as usual...though I’d consider the latter option very carefully.
fuck this..every time I post part 4, part 3 disappears...OK..here's part 3..out of order etc but WTF
Pt3 Martyn claims this whole episode is part of a cunning plan, although even he must surely now acknowledge that he has become a laughing stock, butt of innumerable jokes and whipping boy for basically anyone who wants to have a pop at a moron. Reluctantly I must concede that it really isn’t ‘sport’ any more. He’s far too easy a target; possesses no self awareness or sense of proportion and I worry for his mental health. Unless he continues playing the heroic victim or addresses any comment whatsoever to me, I consider myself done with him. This represents a big change of heart and I hope I don’t come to regret it.
The problem arises from the fact that essentially, the internet is forever. When you end up having a row, it’s not like having a nuisance neighbours..not like they’re gonna get that job with Siemans, move to Swindon and fuck off out your life...they’re potentially there forever..and so you’ve gotta keep banging on the wall every time they kick off or start playing the birdie song at three in the morning..and really, you should bang harder every time...this is the reason I have to keep sorting out the guy from Scunthorpe. I’m fully aware it seems I’m like a dog with a bone but I only actually have a go at her/him when he/she raise her head again, has a dig or starts playing the noble victim...please feel free to verify this...she starts I respond..disproportionately I admit but that’s fully intentional.
Thats a very comprehensive explanation MF, i was expecting a few lines.
"I’m fully aware it seems I’m like a dog with a bone but I only actually have a go at her/him when he/she raise her head again, has a dig or starts playing the noble victim...please feel free to verify this...she starts I respond..disproportionately I admit but that’s fully intentional and the way it's got to be. "
I wasnt complaining, its been probably the funniest and most one sided demolition job I've seen for a long time. I've had a fair few rows with Martyn myself but its been such a pasting i find myself almost feeling bad for him now, never thought I'd see the day...
The Beast of Bolsover, aka our Dennis, has given his support to Milipede Snr, saying "he believed the shadow foreign secretary was the candidate who would fare best against David Cameron".
In other words, our Dennis doesn't think much of any of the candidates.
What a load of bollocks. Every time I have seen you, in all your guises, you're ripping into someone. Whenever someone points that out, you revert to the 'aw shucks, who me?' routine.
"..all my guises"?..and tell me I to the Vizzo..who would you class as the instigator in these exchanges..sure as fuck isn't me
Let me run this scenario by you..
X posts some auld load of shite
monkeyfish (in one of his "many guises") responds..
"to be fair, X..that was a load of shite because of a, b, c and d.."
X responds (conveniently bypassing any reference to a, b,c or d) "yeah well you smell"..or "I don't deal with trolls"...or "yeah well you're just one of them would-be class warriors with a chip on your shoulder and an aversion to civilised discourse"
monkeyfish (in one of his "many guises") thinks
"right..game on"
In fact I to the Vizzo, I challenge you to produce one instance where I've ripped into anybody with the sole intention of landing ad-homs..and without justifying my 'attack'
...admittedly, as the 'debate' progresses, such purely personalised and piss-taking diatribes may ensue..but I'm fairly sure I've never jumped in without good cause.
Hi ms chin - not looked at Murphy's blog yet. Given the number of trollers who are prepared to equivocate about rape on Cochrane's thread, I'm not surprised that there should be some waving their willies about to take pride in not paying the tax they owe.
Something's gone seriously wrong in this country over the last 30 years or so.
We used to have a sense of community, didn't we? Or, failing that, a sense of shame?
It seems that Thatcherism's legacy is to make a virtue out of being anti-social selfish fuckers with no morality beyond what's good for them and their own.
It amazes me how many posters are so proud to be selfish, greedy and completely lacking in any sort of conscience.
What was Ms Nadifa posting? She seems to have upset you-know-who who in turn seems to have accused her of being me or Atomboy..strange I clicked on her profile and although she's been deleted, the number of recommends is still there..she seems to have said something fairly 'popular'..what was it?
Also..she seems fairly genuine to me..never known Atomboy to post in role, always seems fairly clear when it's him..recognisably Atomboy
She's been accused of having a "large following"..WTF is that meant to imply?
Your piss-taking diatribes are funny, for sure. but you're so quick to get all indignant if someone takes a shot back at you, that's the part that doesn't really add up.
MsNadifa posted some lengthy stuff at Martyn, calling him a woman-hater and asking if he'd like to attend one of her women's meetings to pour the drinks.
That tax thread is an extra specially vile one, Charley Says (is he Proff Plums btw) calls for people to do their civic duty and grass on benefit cheats because they are a cancer at the heart of society while bragging about his own tax evasion exploits, what a brain dead shit head he is.
I think it might be time for another rest from reading comments.
"We used to have a sense of community, didn't we? Or, failing that, a sense of shame?"
I think the latter is reliant, to a degree, on the former. Once its every man for himself the idea of "shame" doesnt really amount to much. The most depressing comment I've seen lately was on Milne, some subhuman was saying how much he would be "cheering" on the cuts, to end that nasty "bloated public sector sucking him dry".
Quite amazing really. That after a trillion pounds of public money being given to millionaires and then two Etonians using it as a pretext to strip the nation of rights and benefits fought for over centuries, and this poster was "cheering". I couldnt think of any reply that would be both suitable and likely to survive more than 30 seconds so gave up in the end.
Ms Nadifa seems to be a Somali woman living in London according to her comments page and and was complaining about institutional and other racism. She is supportive of Oona King and said in one post:
I would implore Ms King to tackle the culture of endemic institutional racism and sexism in the City Hall
She seems to have crossed swords with Senor Cordoba, who weirdly, describes himself as a 'radical feminist' on his profile.
Very disappointed to hear that The Beast is supporting the senior milipede.
I heard on the radio that some German bank wants some enormous sum from the govt to boost its reserves to some required new level, following some decision involving the Swiss somewhere. Essentially, other banks will be stampeding to govts looking for another handout from the taxpayer. Have I got this right or was there something in my coffee this morning?
In my defence, the lack of detail in recounting the above is down to a) being useless at economics and b) simultaneously listening to tales of what happened at work the day before last, from my other half.
Jen
There's trolls and there's odious bastards, both aplenty on the tax thread.
I often hope that some of the nastier stuff that is posted is just spur of the moment posturing and that they don't really believe the things they say but it is so widespread I have to think they mean it.
I think a lot of people are going to have a rude awakening when they find themselves in the same position as those they seem to hate so much, even so I doubt it will change their minds, people always find ways to persuade themselves that their situation is special.
"Your piss-taking diatribes are funny, for sure. but you're so quick to get all indignant if someone takes a shot back at you, that's the part that doesn't really add up."
"...doesn't really add up."
I'm a time-served, tradesman piss-taker, of course it makes sense..there's a mechanic two doors down from me...imagine he looked out and I'm under the bonnet of his car, fucking about and I shout over "didn't sound too good to me..thought I'd have a go and tune it up"
The thing is, the public sector IS bloated. We've talked about this before - if you think it should be bloated and inefficient, then say so. There is an argument to be made there.
But you can't say there isn't waste, because that's disingenuous. It'll only result in you losing the debate, because the waste & inefficiency is there for all to see.
Vzzo - it is wasteful, of course, so is every single organisation, public or private, in the world. I dont quite follow how that leads to "cheering" cuts of 25-40% across our services?
Dont worry about me losing the debate, i usually do alright. You explain to me why we should "cheer" the cuts being lined up and we'll take it from there. If you dont think they should be "cheered" then im not sure what we're arguing about.
Re public sector bloated: I've always worked in the private sector and it's fucking full of useless cunts earning enormous salaries to do nothing except impede the progress of people who actually want to get work done.
I expect most of the public sector useless cunts are making rather less.
Im really under no illusions about public sector "waste" - i get the inside news from Brighton council where they are paying for people to come in and give people counselling about the stress of "returning from sick leave", which really sums up that council in a nutshell.
But there are two issues here - "waste" in terms of staff is a tricky one, the idea that you save public money by putting these people on dole and social housing is highly questionable, thats ignoring the social consequences and their costs.
The second point is one of basic humanity - you do not "cheer" hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs regardless of the circumstances.
I am utterly fed up (working in a school) with only being able to employ LA-approved contractors for important structural work, which is usually significantly more expensive - and shoddily done later than the contract stated -
For example...one of the lights in our library caught fire yesterday. The earliest the LA approved contractor can come out? Monday evening.
If we could put work out to local tender, it would be completed on time, to a higher standard, much more cheaply. But we're not allowed to.
@ Jay and IttV. Trouble with the cuts is the fuckwitted, all-or-nothing stances being taken. New Lab created wasteful structures and bodies (didn't employ that many in 'em, but they earned a lot: a type of patronage went on/goes on too. Just check out some of the weird fiefdoms in the Dept of Health fr'instance. The Tories take that as some kind of proof that the whole of the public sector needs razing to the ground (and the patronage continues, with pals in certain PLCs to benefit). Labour's take is preferable, but only on the grounds that it has a lower human cost and means that the essentials in public services aren't lost. What neither are at all capable of is focused, targeted cuts: Labour because of incompetence, and not wishing to unseat apparatchiks; also their general professional-politician remoteness from the practicalities of public services and infatuation with the worst aspects of technocratic management consultancy bullshit and systems.The ConDems, because it's an article of faith for them that public sector = bad, private sector goo, despite the fucking huge elephant in the room that they are different beasts, with different purposes. As I put to IttV on CiF t other day, "Past experience tells us that people from the private sector, so convinced that they know so much better, have tended to come a little unstuck in the public sector. And I think – a bold proposition in itself – that it’s because of the nature of the public sector beast.It's services that have to be universal, along with infrastructure too, and preserving the systems by which society functions (eg legal system, regulation), that the private sector either never touches, or comes at from completely the opposite perspective to that required by the state, and the interplay between all of these. Too many management consultants don’t know, and couldn't, what the knock-on effects will be because that’s not their background. They can sometimes be demonstrably good at getting businesses to be much more profitable (sometimes: as pointed out, too often they're simply a very expensive form or back-covering by the firm's management for changes they don't want to be seen doing themselves).That’s not the same as being efficient although it’s easy to assume that it is.Desirable public service 'outputs' are way more complicated (from life expectancy, to educational standards to crime rates to defence to justice to quality of life etc etc) than the single, narrow metric of profit.In fact what public services are judged by primarily, by the public are outcomes, rather than outputs. I'm not saying one's easier than the other, but that they are very very different." (will continue...)
(...contd) "Supporters of public services must never fall into the trap of defending inefficiency or opposing changes that genuinely improve public services.However, attempts to measure public sector efficiency are almost always deeply flawed and narrow. Efficiency is simply a measure of outputs against inputs The problem is that the public sector does not lend itself to such crude measures. If you double class sizes and exam results only decline by a third, then that class has become more efficient. Yet the education system is worse as a result.Again, it's back to the duty to preserve the universal, to maintain the system that marks out the public sector.Quite different to the private sector where the system (including the market itself) is something to be gamed/exploited/subverted wherever possible. In too much discussion of the public sector, including amongst policy-makers themselves, productivity and effectiveness are often wrongly used as if they are interchangeable. But effectiveness is actually a very different measure – defined as the ratio of the outcomes which an organisation aims to achieve, divided by the total inputs. Thus, effectiveness in the public sector is a much more complex concept and is far more subject to measurement error and to influences from outside developments. Outcomes are far more elusive and trickier than outputs, more changeable, and conditional upon social & political vagaries and many,many other externalities. Those of us who argue for a public realm say that some activities simply do not lend themselves to private sector/market solutions, just as most of us accept the converse – that some activities should not be done by the state"
I'd add to this about the inability of Governments these days, because of the technocratic mindset. Too many in the upper echelons fail to appreciate the realities. There are the realities of what any work or service entails but more pointedly the realities of workforc. It's very easy, but potentially disastrous, to mistake roles, and places in a neat organisational structure for functions and most pointedly functionality. An example of this is to consider a local CMHT to me. It has a consultant psychiatrist, some CPNs, an OT,and an 'outreach worker'. Looked at schematically, the consultant will stay, being a clinician, the CPNs will be trimmed, and the nebulously titled outreach worker will go.Trouble is, in terms of functionality, it's the outreach worker who keeps the whole damn show on the road, doing way over and above what the title suggests, and is the one who acts as the glue holding things together so that there is some kind of a service at all.She's the one who finds out what the hell's going on in the wider community, where collaborations might be made, to in the end save resources. It's a false knowledge base that the Govt is operating from, one which is mapped and charted, and the basis for how they are identifying where to cut first, but incapable of drilling down to know who's doing the real graft, or whose work provides added value.
I am not MsNadifa and have neither heard of her nor noticed her.
I have not posted on CiF for some days and had a couple of names banned/pre-modded as soon as I did not sing praises and hosannas for the new woman who has taken over from the execrable Seaton.
The future direction seems to be clear from the thousand odd comments, about eighty percent of which complained about moderation and Ms Hanman's pointedly picking only those which did not present problems - and, presumably, asking the moderators to press the banning-button like the wind.
Monkeyfish is right that I never really try to disguise my tone or style or attempt to convincingly pretend to be anyone else, apart from sometimes as a couple of initial test runs to see whether I am going to be banned from the start.
Now that other news sites, like The Independent, are getting better and more popular with commenting and debate, I do not see the point in trying to help CiF any more.
I may keep a couple of names in reserve over there and take them out for a spin every now and then, but I think both it and its users are better left to wallow in the shit of their making.
Ah, but the govt has decided that the public sector is to be judged through public access to its data, which will be free to all (including for commercial use). I can't imagine many citizens will be interested enough to pore over 1000s of datasets for fun (although it's a pastime that will doubtless suit some). But it's all about data & balance sheets and fuck the outcomes for service users.
But the government will be judged in the end on outcomes, not savings alone. They must be conscious that having more people slip through the net - into addiction, homelessness, prison, whatever - will reflect negatively on their standing, and will hand the opposition some powerful arguments at election time.
Is it so impossible that there are substantial savings to be made from pure waste alone, i.e. without much impact to the services themselves?
Jay's point, that it's better to spend an extra 5k to keep someone in work rather than on benefits, makes sense, but it needs to be honestly put forward - it's basically the spirit level argument. Which I still haven't got round to reading.
"But the government will be judged in the end on outcomes, not savings alone. They must be conscious that having more people slip through the net - into addiction, homelessness, prison, whatever - will reflect negatively on their standing, and will hand the opposition some powerful arguments at election time."
As another weekend of Association football beckons, I wonder if the UT fancies adopting Halifax Ziggy's Spice House League as the official UT football league for this season?
After only three games, the league has already chalked up scorelines of 9-1, 7-4 and last weekend Stainland Utd gubbed Junction AFC 15-6.
It's unclear whether Ziggy's spice house is a curry shop or kebab shop but fair play to them for digging deep and sponsoring Halifax's 26th most prestigious league.
We are now on the verge of bailing out crooks in an Afghan banking system that crashed, just like the economic crisis here, due to irresponsible loans and real estate boondoggles. Just like we did here, we will be bailing out the fat-cat crooks who caused the crisis. And just like here, the poor and working people will suffer.
going by some of the scores I don't believe that the participants nor officials of Halifax Ziggy's Spice House League know much about football either so fill your boots.
I notice that Salem were bottom of the league last season and have started the same this year. If they hadn't got rid of all their witches, they may have cast a few spells to see them on their way.
@ IttV. The time-lag will prove the killer: by the time the outcomes are proved to have deteriorated, the people in services capable of arresting that decline will be redundant or dispersed. I'd also suggest that there will be untold spin, demonisation and scapegoating should, as seems likely,much of the basic fabric of the UK's civil society begin to unravel. There are savings to made against pure waste, but this Govt won't do that, preferring to throw the baby out with the bathwater at quite astonishing,breakneck, speed.For them it's ideological, not practical. The last Govt was incapable of it too: for them it was tied in with technocratic, managerialist delusions of competence and knowledge,self-serving structures and smoke'n'mirrors economics, again nothing to do with the practical. Not that it's an easy task (c.f. every Govt since WWII) as demonstrated by the Gershon review(s):'pure waste' proved to be very hard to identify, complicated by politicians ruling their pet projects out of bounds, or their cronies' fiefdoms off-limits. Add in pressure groups, and damnably, the tendency of those charged directly with identifying waste to themselves commit the politicians' sins (cronyism, looking after themselves, preserving their own position and role) and it's much,much tougher than you'd think.Incidentally this problem in identifying waste isn't confined to the public sector, although some of the complicating factors (political pressures,etc) apply less. These are problems with large organisations, especially those which are required to do bureaucratic tasks. Much of this was described by Weber about 150 years ago.
In a far from secure, and ten million miles from permanent, state of employment in the middle of the area voted by an audience poll to be the least resilient to the coming onslaught..Osbourne's dream visit to Teesside
..and the kids get lairier by the day and it's fuckin raining and chicken used to taste like chicken...
basically scraping by on pure cool and the knowledge that the X factor's waiting for me when my day of rest comes..etc
One of my oldest friends was born in Sowerby Bridge, and my great-uncle Theodore apparently used to wind the church clock there until he got too old to mount the ladder. I still have the silver watch he was given on retirement.
So, without more preamble, I shall adopt the league leaders, and you can call me a glory hunter if you wish.
Thing about coalition governments, ITotheVizzo, is, nobody really knows if they're going to last another week, or another ten years.
So the people involved in them tend to take what they can as quickly as possible. Hence the ability to not claim back bankers' debts, the desire to sell off anything that's left in the public purse, the desire to cut back public spending and entirely ring fence defence contracts with companies that give them or their friends money.
If you want to judge them when they've done that, fair enough. Many of us can see what they are doing now and none of it is in the interests of the nation.
I see cif have got a piece up by Redwood. I really don't think I can face it sober. This not drinking malarky, and on a friday night too, is a bit of a facer.
Apparently nobody has worked it out yet, 'I to the Vizzo' is OZXYZ666754321 (or whatever the fuck he's called) on Cif (Ivo Hypocritovic) and he's a neo-con wanker who claims he's 'left wing' and has somehow been embraced by the bourgeois elite on Cif and the Cif commissioning editors. He recently wrote a very important article on Cif about who he was supporting for the Labour party leadership. And he has just started his own blog which is he is shamelessly whoring to the luvvies on waddya. It's probably only a coincidence that he turns up today on the Untrusted for the first time. I'll just save monkeyfish and hank the bother here and call him a cunt straight away, and I'll also save Martyn and Charles the bother of saying that he has consistently been one of the best posters on Cif ever. Various other undiscrimating dimwits here will probably say 'hi, vizzo, welcome!' But they probably shouldn't.
Love and kisses, an occasional very unwelcome visitor (thx Montana).
@MF - give those you know the benefit of the doubt.
As for those you don't know, fuck 'em.
There's too many right-wing trolls on here, and too many right-wing twats on Cif.
It really does defy belief how often intelligent left-wing posts get deleted over at Cif.
Btw, I think "I to the Visso" is Bracken. Not that it matters. There's not much to choose between Bracken and the other right-wing fuckwits who ponce about over here.
btw, 'vizzo' describes his 'blog list' as Cif, untimely sound and the Untrusted! I don't hang around here much any more so I can't really comment, but perhaps you guys know a bit more about Ivo and his connection to this blog. Or perhaps not?
You certainly make it sound incredibly difficult to identify waste, but as I was saying the other day on Cif I have worked in some government offices, and have dealt with a few in the past form a user standpoint, and the layers of unnecessary bureaucracy and management are immediately apparent.
In essence I agree that the government's stance is ideological, and I'm not in favour of rolling the state back to the degree they want. But if we take each argument on its separate merit, then public sector waste, if properly dealt with, can result in savings. The fact that those savings mean lost jobs, and potentially more societal problems as a result (as jay said) is a separate argument, an done that needs to be made.
But what I'm hearing too often is that the government are falsely pointing to inefficiencies and waste, where there aren't any (I appreciate you're not saying that). That's the position Labour took, and it certainly didn't help them.
I'm new to blogger generally. I put this on my 'blog list' because I don't have much else to put on there. Have I implied I'm affiliated with the site in some way? I'll take it off the list if so.
several posters have been asking Cif to run a series on the cuts - both to benefits and public sector - and their connection to personal and societal breakdown. We unfortunately are not getting support - too many people wanting to scapegoat in the hope of protecting themse;ves.
There is waste in all enterprises - public and private. if genuine waste is identified and removed then savings will be made.
what has to be examined is where will 'savings' have their greatest impact. A cut back in spending in one area is a loss of income in another.
Creating job losses and throwing more people onto benefits whilst reducing the benefits bill suggests economic illiteracy. These policies lack cohesion and any internal structure - they are random and punitive against one section of society.
Is it of greater value to society to pay off the national debt (always with us ) or to guard against unfair and unreasoned cuts which will damage lives and communities ?
@scherfig - what is your fucking problem? You've obviously been lurking here for a while, and this site has been troubled by other lurkers, and some people on here added 2 + 2 and made you.
And then you turned up.
It's not that fucking surprising that some on here made you as number 4.
Do what you want, scherfig. I miss you, I think that you were a good poster over here, but I'm just a bit fucking bored of the whole poncy backbiting Cif-fallout scene.
."You've obviously been lurking here for a while" Yeah, montana said that too last time I dared to comment here (for the first time in about a month). It's not actually true, since the place is not that interesting to me anymore, but I do look in very occasionally, although I don't often feel the urge to comment. Tonight was a bit of an exception - just couldn't resist. I dare say I'll get over it, and if I 'lurk' again I'll try to be strong.
Have just seen your post on waddya.Things seem to be getting bleaker by the day.The possible means-testing of ESA on top of DLA defies belief but as we've said before the sick are an easy target and the ConDems clearly have the support of much of the media for these measures.Anyway we mustn't lose hope.
Hello everyone: I'm in Drogheda tonight. Can't keep up with the thread. The hot topic over here is "Nama"..is that a person or an organization? Just caught the "Late Show" on RTE with people being interviewed who want to emigrate to Australia.
According to the chat on the radio the Anglo/Irish deal is just another con job.
NAMA is the Irish Government's 'bad bank', where it's going to hide away all the duff assets in its banking system. Part of the corrupt bailout that's going on over there.
i'm like Hank - really bored with the back and forth between her and waddya. i'm not posting on Cif - 'cept for the odd thing on waddya to try to keep things in the eye over there.
The rantings on cif become less and less realistic. Fed up with 'bleeding heart' attacks on anyone who queries current policies.
are these people blind ? Do they understand the probable fallout of trying to starve millions in an attempt to impose not only unfair systems but systems which are bound to fail onto us ?
I am on the side of the workers and the sick but even if I weren't I would be concerned about the social problems this gvt. is creating. they defy common sense and go against any understanding of how societies work. The British people will not be prepared to go back to deference and servility - I hope .
does this gvt., its supporters and enforcers really believe they can take us all back to the 18th century ?
Are you on your way home yet? I've given up trying to understand banks and their doings - they are apparently perfectly legal criminal structures operating legally in an illegal manner.
Not really, Paul. I'd ask you which side you were on, but, to be completely fucking honest, I don't give a shit.
As for Leni - well, I like Leni. She's genuine.
Very barbed comment there but you know what i ain't gonna lose sleep over it.FWIW i,ve always liked your online personnae and i'd genuinely like to meet you some day.I know we've had a few misunderstandings or whatever but i didn't think it was any big deal.I think you're a fucking good poster and i hope you'll be back posting on CIF as HS before too long.
i do miss you . you amuse and entertain me - you are intelligent - sometimes a bit daft I have to say - but yes , I miss you. Don't care if you don't believe me. But i don't intend to argue with you. xx
I read your now deleted post and i'm genuinely shocked that i ever gave you that impression.All i can say is that i'm sorry and when i get my arse up to Sheffield i'll buy you a pint.FWIW i've always thought of you as a sound bloke irrespective of any disagreements we've had.
Eid Mubarak, everybody!
ReplyDelete(Apols for 2 straight days of purple & green vegetation. I promise something drastically different for tomorrow's image.)
Montana Wildhack:
ReplyDeleteI have never in all my years of reading Usenet and web flamewars (that'd be 20 years now) seen someone who claims to be a mature and intelligent man wish colorectal cancer on another commenter. It wasn't clever, ...
I know shooting first, asking questions later, and overlooking the need for comprehension, are your forte, but this is not what I wished on anyone.
Would you care to divvy up evidence to prove your claim that I wished this on anyone, or are you just trolling your own blog?
She may not have got the particular cancer variety right, but i thought i recalled you wishing "bowel cancer" on him, as well as instructing him to procreate with his mother. I do have a very poor memory so could be wrong.
ReplyDeletemonkeycunt: are you dying from bowel cancer, or something?
ReplyDeleteThere you go Martyn....one you forgot to delete?
”…I thought i recalled you wishing "bowel cancer" on him, as well as instructing him to procreate with his mother…”
ReplyDeleteLOL, sounds like a day in my office… but you know what, I just don’t get all this outrage, to be honest.
Monkeyfish and El Cordovan clearly can’t fucking stand each other (yes, even I've picked up on that!), let them have their virtual pagga if they want, they’re both obviously enjoying it. Monkeyfish gets to to wax mighty wroth in his usual inimitable (well, kinda) style, and El Cordovan gets to do his best cack-handed Alan Partridge impression… match made in heaven, really.
Anyway, carry on.
Sheffpixie said...
ReplyDeletemonkeycunt: are you dying from bowel cancer, or something?
There you go Martyn....one you forgot to delete?
So, Sheffpixie, for you and Montana, a question is the same as a wish?
For the record, I didn't forget to delete it at all.
SwiftyBoy
ReplyDeleteMonkeyfish gets to to wax mighty wroth in his usual inimitable (well, kinda) style, and El Cordovan gets to do his best cack-handed Alan Partridge impression… match made in heaven, really.
Hahahahahaha! That's pretty much it. Now a little light entertainment from ...
Heitor Villa-Lobos - Prelude No. 5 Homage to Social Life - Julian Bream
JayReilly
ReplyDeleteIMHO Sometimes (far too frequently IMHO) we read what we want to, rather than what is there.
Who said that Martyn couldn't do humour? This effort from waddya is pure comedy gold:
ReplyDeleteI don't self-label myself as a feminist, but if feminists want to label me and my views as feminist or even a radical feminist, then I am more than happy to accept that label.
And was only the opening line of a very looooong routine. Watch out, Eddie Izzard! (And remember, all you aspiring Lennie Bruces out there, a big finish is important, but it's absolutely crucial that you're humble as well.)
As for feminist credentials, I don't really seek them, but as one ATL contributor on CiF told me: "Given that you have delivered … arguments that would certainly be considered ‘radically feminist perhaps you should reconsider your choice not to identify with that label!"
Tish, boom. You've been a wunnerful audience. I'll be back in 10 minutes, and then again, and again, and again...
anon said...
ReplyDeleteWho said that Martyn couldn't do humour? This effort from waddya is pure comedy gold:
You should have trusted the twisted pair and your initial instincts. I don't do humour. Let me explain:
I DON'T DO HUMOUR.
There. Got it now?
BTW Anon of GIYUS, do you post more on CiFwatch, CiF or here?
Oh should that be Anon of Hasbara?
ReplyDeleteHow not to fire a huge watermelon out of a slingshot.
ReplyDelete@El Cordovan:
ReplyDeleteThose 10h01 and 10h04 posts were as good an impression of The Good Soldier Bracken as I’ve seen round here. So here’s some more Bracken-isms for incorporation in your future posts:
Hat tip to you, sir.
You dolt.
Pusillanimous hand-flapper.
Effete liberal apologist.
Monstrous carbuncle (he may not have originated that one).
Uh huh… motorbikin’
Use them wisely!
@13thDuke:
Saw that yesterday. Ouchy ouch ouch.
Hat tip to you, sir. How about ... skitterin' gobsheen? Ya, effete liberal apologist .. on a bike.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone actually make any sense of that Douglas Haddow article? I'm baffled, but I'm also concerned that I'm missing something rather immense....
ReplyDeleteCifWatch? Hasbara? Jeez, do your delusions of grandeur know no bounds, Martyn? Why would those propagandists have any interest in a nonentity like you? Apart from being an effective yet modest crusader for radical feminism, are you a secret Palestinian freedom fighter too? Do they bug your phones?
ReplyDeleteActually, to be quite honest and totally off the record, I'm with MI6. You do realise that we consider you a very dangerous man, don't you? Your constant subversive yet compelling utterances on Cif reach a global audience, and that might well bring down the whole fragile neo-con edifice. And we can't have that - you must be stopped, at any cost!
@Swift
ReplyDeleteAs I said the other day, Arnold Rimmer. Indeedy!
* * *
Fête de l'Huma starts this evening.
The Prodge tonight.
Morning all
ReplyDeleteSeems like the Mad Pastor won't be going ahead with his Koran Burning tomorrow.He maintains he's cancelled it because he's been given an assurance that the mosque won't be built on Ground Zero.However that claim has been rejected by those looking to build the mosque who say they only agreed to have talks with him.
Can't believe that tomorrow is the ninth anniverary of 9/11.I was at work that day and i suspect like many people initially reacted with disbelief when the first reports of the attacks started coming through.
I saw the programme Sheff mentioned a few threads ago when it first came out.Think it was called '102 minutes in New York' or something like that.It really did bring home to the viewer the events as they unfolded and the often poignant reactions of New Yorkers as they were forced to face up to the atrocity and its aftermath.
To change the subject completely Harry is looking to replace Fabio when the latter steps down and i personally hope he does.I reckon he'll do a good job.
Leave me out of it SwiftBoy.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you're gonna join the ranks of the dicks baiting Martyn, just fuckin' do it. Enjoy the lynching. Just don't use it to gob at me as well.
@Paul
ReplyDeleteSo when did the Muslim community centre with prayer room become a mosque?
Assuming the plans haven't changed, if having a prayer room makes it a mosque, Roissy Airport has one too, so that makes it one huge temple.
CifWatch? Hasbara? Jeez, do your delusions of grandeur know no bounds
ReplyDelete"pure comedy gold" TM Jubi2.
anon said...
ReplyDeleteActually, to be quite honest and totally off the record, I'm with MI6.
What's an MI6, a rap ensemble?
Spike
ReplyDeleteSo when did the Muslim community centre with prayer room become a mosque?
Assuming the plans haven't changed, if having a prayer room makes it a mosque, Roissy Airport has one too, so that makes it one huge temple.
OK Cultural Centre and Mosque/Cultural Centre with Prayer Room-whatever! I have no problems with that.My point was about the cancellation of the proposed burning of the Koran by some deranged 'Man of God'.
@PB:
ReplyDelete"...And if you're gonna join the ranks of the dicks baiting Martyn, just fuckin' do it. Enjoy the lynching. Just don't use it to gob at me as well..."
Nah, not really the lynching kind, sir, just messing about on jankers with a bucket of whitewash, sir. Couldn't really care less who's not playing with who, or whose dad's a copper, or who can piss highest up the wall, or who's got the biggest cock, to be honest.
@Paul
ReplyDeleteI was on the Channel ferry with my wife when a mate texted me to tell me about the Twin Tower attacks. I thought it was a wind-up.
Then later, when I watched, I thought, "Perhaps, just perhaps people in the West will now realise the horrors of being bombed. If only some good could come out of this atrocity - an aspiration for peace".
Wasn't I overoptimistic?
AFAIK There are no plans to build a mosque or even an Islamic cultural centre, on ground zero. However, what chances are there that something similar to a traditional Mickie D installation will be plonked down on that very same hallowed ground?
ReplyDeleteViva capitalism's living dead!
”…Perhaps, just perhaps people in the West will now realise the horrors of being bombed. If only some good could come out of this atrocity - an aspiration for peace"…”
ReplyDeleteLOL you provocative scamp. But wait! what’s this I hear – a pair of size 12 Army boots thundering in the direction of that comment…
3 – 2 – 1…
Major Bracken! Major Bracken! Someone "of the left" is saying 9/11 was a good thing! Major Bracken!
Spike:
ReplyDeleteWasn't I overoptimistic?
My initials thoughts were:
1. WTF?
2. The murdering bastards!
3. The USA will get someone, anyone, to pay for this. Guilty or not.
4. Isn't it time for reflection on why this has happened?
5. Fat chance.
IMHO Capitalists societies are essentially sick societies, and the bigger the capitalist, the worse the sickness. Punitive "revenge" on imperialist countries? Probably a no-brainer really, innit.
@Swift
ReplyDeleteHeheh. You're probably bang on the money there.
Anything you may say will be twisted, misinterpreted and used against you.
@MIE
Yeah, well, I've always been a hopelessly hopeful humanist, otherwise I'd be a trader instead of a communist.
Spike said...
ReplyDeleteYeah, well, I've always been a hopelessly hopeful humanist, otherwise I'd be a trader instead of a communist.
Yeah, well, if you'd become a trader you could be living in France or Tuscany by now. Not stuck back at home, having fun at l'Huma, in Paris (wherever that is).
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCunt with alloys. Several owners. Been abroad. Four quid.
ReplyDeleteMan that Martyn in Europe is up himself.
ReplyDeleteHad to share it somewhere cos they delete me on waddya.
@gillesboy:
ReplyDelete”…Man that Martyn in Europe is up himself…”
*whispers* He’s behind you…
lol
ReplyDeleteAnd guess who am I using as a strap on.
ReplyDeleteAAhhh!!! Can't you keep him here with the intellectual giants and leave waddya for us pointless spam?
ReplyDeletegillesboy said...
ReplyDeleteMan that Martyn in Europe is up himself.
The correct expression is "Man that Martyn in Europe is SO up himself." Any gaylord in Sitges should be able to tell you this, dear.
*sharp intake of breath* He said “gaylord”, Miss!
ReplyDeleteLOL, you get more Bracken-ish by the minute you old reprobate (sorry PB, that’s a side-swipe but in an affectionate way).
An iconoclast is someone who performs iconoclasm — destruction of religious symbols, or, by extension, established dogma or conventions.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the record, 9/11 was just waiting to happen. What goes around, comes around.
So this is the fabled 'other place'. What's the etiquette? Do you just wade in?
ReplyDeleteWade in. Bring beer.
ReplyDeleteWear a full body condom.
ReplyDeleteIt makes you a colossal dick.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realise it was one of those web sites.
With a gadget, pills or with creams?
Beer - check. Full body condom - check.
ReplyDeleteCan I start swearing at people now?
@Vizzo
ReplyDeleteSure. Pick a target, let's hear it.
Go on then.
ReplyDeleteSorry, went off prematurely.
ReplyDeleteHeard that one before, BW. ;-)
ReplyDeleteNah, only playing. Aggro's not really my thing.
ReplyDeleteWhen 9/11 happened, I was running a market stall in Rotherham for the weekend to get rid of old crap. Everyone huddled round a TV at a nearby stall to watch the news live, traders and customers. I thought it was some sort of accident at first, until the second plane.
Martyn - have you reflected on why it happened? Why do you think?
A question for Montana.
ReplyDeleteI've just read that tea party article.
From what I gather about the tea party movement, I believe that a chimps tea party in which the participants drink from the spout, do backflips on the table and fling their own faeces at onlookers are a more coherent bunch.
Would I be correct in this assumption?
Oh I dunno, Duke, this one's got a moose-shootin' pit bull with lipstick. Much more entertaining if deadlier.
ReplyDelete"I thought it was some sort of accident at first, until the second plane."
ReplyDeleteHello - BW forgot to mention youtube links, other than that i think he covered it. Abuse, youtube and drink.
Anyways, i thought it was a film when i first turned the tv on, then after a while seemed quite real so thought accident, like you, then when the second plane hit, thought "shit".
@Jay:
ReplyDeleteI remember thinking: 1) Saddam Hussein will be watching this, going “oh fuck”; and then very shortly thereafter… 2) Thank fuck I’m out, because this isn’t going to end well.
I was in Detroit. It was spooky how quiet it was for a week or so afterwards when all the planes were grounded; you don't realise how much noise they make.
ReplyDeleteFreaked out one night because one woke me up in the tiny hours of the morning, but it turned out to be a military plane circling the city.
Swifty - oh yeah, it was always clear that Saddam was going to pay the price. Those drums had been beating for a while.
ReplyDeleteI was in a pub in Wicklow. the only time I've been in an Irish pub that was full to bursting and completely silent - except for the TV.
ReplyDeleteI to the Vizzo
Are you still in South Yorks? There are 4 other UTers who live in/around Sheffield.
anyone else having probs posting?
Brusselsexpats
ReplyDelete10 September 2010 3:27PM
>>I like children's books too. Whenever
>>I go into a bookshop I always end
>>up loitering with intent in the
>>kids' section.
Uggh...
I was at home with flat mates, we all got round the tv, when the second plane hit my then gf said, 'Inside job, US now has carte blanche to fuck whoever they like..' I've always liked smart women...
ReplyDeleteAm having posting probs, and on the new improved cif.. prob for the best as job finishes soon and it's looking like bread and water from November.
I was being a student bum watching the lunchtime edition of Neighbours, then the news came on....
ReplyDelete@Sheffpixie, no I'm flitting between Manchester and London at the moment, but I still go to Sheffield pretty frequently.
ReplyDelete@Turminder - if you like smart women, what were you doing with one who thought 9/11 was an inside job?!
A piece on tax evasion just up on cif
ReplyDeleteAre you cheating the taxman too?
Ah, I2tehV Love a good (or shit) secret plot, so I do...
ReplyDeleteChuckled conspiracy Grandchild ; )
Oh how I miss TinFoilHoodie...
ReplyDeleteAfternoon All Hello Vizzo
ReplyDeleteHeavy rain and mist here - miserable.
Turm - Summer season jobs coming to an end here too. I hope something turns up for you soon.
Off to look at Cif - see if there is anything of interest there.
Cochrane article = money for old rape ?
ReplyDeleteI heard the news at 5PM on my way to give an english class in a factory. Three execs and a printer from the shop floor, we found a TV and were glued to it , Ruben was very quiet.
ReplyDeleteWeeks later he told us how the Red Cross found him in hospital where he was recovering from torture and he eventually arrived in france as a refugee.
11 september 1973 - Pinochet
Republicans rock!
ReplyDeleteCheck out this guy
Cheers Leni, afk til Sunday now. Play nice! P x
ReplyDelete40,000 police to be axed and Royal Mail to be sold or privatised. The agenda marches forward but destination still unclear.
ReplyDeleteTurm - all right, I've been puzzling over 'afk' for ages now but don't think I've worked it out yet. All fuckin kaput? Nahhhhh.
ReplyDeleteLeni - saw the news about the coppers, but not the RM. Well, Labour were doing that anyway. It'll be another disaster with shoddy service and higher prices, not to mention the jobs lost.
My postie is a star.
Modifying an old nerd joke to fit this week's annoying circumstances at work.
ReplyDeleteselect * from DBA_TEAM
where SKILL_LEVEL >= 'Marginally Competent'
;
0 rows returned
... and before anyone starts, yes I know it's not a valid query! But it expresses my point. It's a surrealist query.
ReplyDeleteTroll song
ReplyDeleteOff out on a works piss up. Back laters
A further cut in benefits of 4 billion is nowbeing demanded.
ReplyDeleteAnybody know what 'average' benefit payment is ? How many real people will this effect , how much of it will be admin costs etc ?
We keep on getting these figures - looking at it from the money end - if we look at it from the people end it looks more and more punitive every day .
This is a further 4 billion out of local community economies - more job losses and small business failures.
Ahhh, BW, someone's posted that horrorshow before! Enjoy your piss-up.
ReplyDeleteCan't get too pissed myself as I have to be back at the puter shortly after 7:00 am due to incompetent database admins. *snarl*
AND there's rugby on tonight!!!
thauma - probably me, pished. Good luck with the 7am then - sorry about the db issues !
ReplyDeleteCoulda been, BW! Unforgettable, I'll say that.
ReplyDeleteIt's only work - lucky to have it - just need to blow off a little steam here and there!
Jay Reilly
ReplyDeletePt 1
Just clocked your question about how my little debate with Martyn got started. Here’s how it started . A while back I noticed Martyn had more or less announced that he was bored with the whole ATOS theme and decided to lay down the law about CIF being a no-campaign zone...regardless of the fact that the statement is patently and demonstrably untrue..incidentally Jesicca Reed make a bit of a fool of herself in that regard since two days after making the definitive “CIF does not do campaigns” pronouncement, she absent-mindedly referred to Henry Porter’s long running Liberty Central campaign.
Martyn’s post had a very strange and arrogant tone; almost as though his name was a guarantor of some degree of credibility and prestige...a sort of “so let this be an end to the matter”. Frankly it was fuckin outrageous.
Now in our subsequent tussling I once or twice made comments along the line of “just who the fuck are you?”. I’ll admit that was a little disingenuous...his name did vaguely ring a bell, but that was about the full extent of his ‘reputation’ as far as I was concerned...later hearing about his 18000 posts, I realised that the name would inevitably have been slightly familiar but as to the quality or worth of their content, I was none the wiser. And so I reluctantly looked at his profile where I was stunned to see as a sort of motto..a quotation from Terence: "Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto"...general rendered: I am human, I deem nothing human alien to me. Since his actual posts were uniformly bland and non-descript; many simply failed attempts at humour (which I now note he claims he doesn’t do), I decided to use the quotation as a basis for challenging his assertion about ATOS and its relevance to CIF.
Pt2
ReplyDeleteI asked him why he quoted the line when it seemed as though the hounding of the poor, sick disabled and desperate were indeed alien to him and why he didn’t want their plight discussed on CIF...rather than answer the question (he never has), he sneered that maybe there was something wrong with my Latin (he never elaborated). Shortly afterwards, my post was clocking up recommends as were its follow ups while Martin, perhaps finally realising that his ‘reputation’ only achieved existential status in his own head, started getting a bit stoppy. What happened next was more or less in the Stars...I got banned.
[as an aside..nothing I’d said contravened any rules...it just seems I had to go..much like the first time. I know since then a sort of narrative has built up that my posting on CIF was uniform abuse but that version of events only really came into being some months afterwards when another ‘respected’ CIF ‘face’ cited ‘months of abuse’ as provocation for her own moment of madness]
Anyway..shortly afterwards, Martyn started popping on here with his usual blend of whatever it is he blends and I asked him again..this time he simply proclaimed that he didn’t talk to trolls...why would he?..he’s the famous Martyn in Europe.
Anyway, Fuck this I thought..no one impugns my Latin..the rest as they say ‘is Geography’. I hope this clears up any confusion. I noticed earlier that Martyn claims he noticed he was ‘being flamed’ from several directions etc..but I think that this is largely projection based on his bloated sense of self-importance..who the fuck would bother flaming a raving nobody like him?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePt3
ReplyDeleteMartyn claims this whole episode is part of a cunning plan, although even he must surely now acknowledge that he has become a laughing stock, butt of innumerable jokes and whipping boy for basically anyone who wants to have a pop at a moron. Reluctantly I must concede that it really isn’t ‘sport’ any more. He’s far too easy a target; possesses no self awareness or sense of proportion and I worry for his mental health. Unless he continues playing the heroic victim or addresses any comment whatsoever to me, I consider myself done with him. This represents a big change of heart and I hope I don’t come to regret it.
The problem arises from the fact that essentially, the internet is forever. When you end up having a row, it’s not like having a nuisance neighbours..not like they’re gonna get that job with Siemans, move to Swindon and fuck off out your life...they’re potentially there forever..and so you’ve gotta keep banging on the wall every time they kick off or start playing the birdie song at three in the morning..and really, you should bang harder every time...this is the reason I have to keep sorting out the guy from Scunthorpe. I’m fully aware it seems I’m like a dog with a bone but I only actually have a go at her/him when he/she raise her head again, has a dig or starts playing the noble victim...please feel free to verify this...she starts I respond..disproportionately I admit but that’s fully intentional and the way it's got to be.
no one impugns my Latin
ReplyDeleteI think I want that on my tombstone.
NB I don't have any Latin.
Pt4
ReplyDeleteAs it happens I’m not unaware that I might occasionally be the party in the wrong (not, I think in the two cases mentioned) but in the past I have, now and again, fucked up, got the wrong end of the stick etc and when I consider that I am in the wrong I have apologised and said “yep..made a right cunt of myself..very sorry”. As far as Martyn’s concerned, I really think I’m on pretty solid ground when I say the fault is at least 90% his and..even if I am wrong, he can always fuck off to Swindon.
Anyway, I doubt he’ll ever man-up enough to apologise but since his credibility is in tatters and he’s getting ripped apart by every Tom , Dick and Harriet, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
So Martyn, you can take the hint and lay off the insults and victimology...(that doesn’t mean I’m trying to get you to fuck off; I’m a genuine no-moderation type of guy..no modding, no bans no nothing..not that I’d try and stop you..just so you don’t go running around claiming you were the subject of a witch-hunt on the UT or whatever)..or if you want to keep it up..so be it..business as usual...though I’d consider the latter option very carefully.
... well, apart from NB, obviously.
ReplyDeletefuck this..every time I post part 4, part 3 disappears...OK..here's part 3..out of order etc but WTF
ReplyDeletePt3
Martyn claims this whole episode is part of a cunning plan, although even he must surely now acknowledge that he has become a laughing stock, butt of innumerable jokes and whipping boy for basically anyone who wants to have a pop at a moron. Reluctantly I must concede that it really isn’t ‘sport’ any more. He’s far too easy a target; possesses no self awareness or sense of proportion and I worry for his mental health. Unless he continues playing the heroic victim or addresses any comment whatsoever to me, I consider myself done with him. This represents a big change of heart and I hope I don’t come to regret it.
The problem arises from the fact that essentially, the internet is forever. When you end up having a row, it’s not like having a nuisance neighbours..not like they’re gonna get that job with Siemans, move to Swindon and fuck off out your life...they’re potentially there forever..and so you’ve gotta keep banging on the wall every time they kick off or start playing the birdie song at three in the morning..and really, you should bang harder every time...this is the reason I have to keep sorting out the guy from Scunthorpe. I’m fully aware it seems I’m like a dog with a bone but I only actually have a go at her/him when he/she raise her head again, has a dig or starts playing the noble victim...please feel free to verify this...she starts I respond..disproportionately I admit but that’s fully intentional.
Thats a very comprehensive explanation MF, i was expecting a few lines.
ReplyDelete"I’m fully aware it seems I’m like a dog with a bone but I only actually have a go at her/him when he/she raise her head again, has a dig or starts playing the noble victim...please feel free to verify this...she starts I respond..disproportionately I admit but that’s fully intentional and the way it's got to be. "
I wasnt complaining, its been probably the funniest and most one sided demolition job I've seen for a long time. I've had a fair few rows with Martyn myself but its been such a pasting i find myself almost feeling bad for him now, never thought I'd see the day...
Hiya Jay, you tuning into the rugby tonight? Of course I refer to E'burgh v Munster, not that sub-standard English rugby.
ReplyDeleteAfter that's over, can check out some of Aironi v Ulster (*think* it's Aironi) on line ... not being broadcast.
Away off to a house with a telly for said pleasure!
I cant see any rugyb on the tv listings Thaum, you been at the booze again?
ReplyDeleteThe Beast of Bolsover, aka our Dennis, has given his support to Milipede Snr, saying "he believed the shadow foreign secretary was the candidate who would fare best against David Cameron".
ReplyDeleteIn other words, our Dennis doesn't think much of any of the candidates.
They have started doing premiership highlights on ITV 4 on sunday night though, was good.
ReplyDelete@monkeyfish,
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of bollocks. Every time I have seen you, in all your guises, you're ripping into someone. Whenever someone points that out, you revert to the 'aw shucks, who me?' routine.
You are funny with it though, to be fair.
So, anyway, I've been suffering with an ear infection all week. Finally went to see the doc today.
ReplyDelete"Can you describe the symptoms?" he says.
"Yeh, Homer's a fat fucker and Marge has got blue hair."
It really is Troll City round these here parts just lately, innit?
Jay - am watching it on BBC Alba (freesat). Unfortunately it's in Scots. Cannae find English commentary on radio!
ReplyDeleteMunster are up 3 - 0.
Hi all.
ReplyDeleteHank
Interesting how many folk are flaunting their tax avoidance over on the Richard Murphy thread.
BW
Just listening to the Santana prog that was on radio 2 earlier this week. Takes me back to my misspent yoof.
thauma - am watching it on BBC Alba
ReplyDeleteThanks - found it.
I to the Vizzo
ReplyDelete"..all my guises"?..and tell me I to the Vizzo..who would you class as the instigator in these exchanges..sure as fuck isn't me
Let me run this scenario by you..
X posts some auld load of shite
monkeyfish (in one of his "many guises") responds..
"to be fair, X..that was a load of shite because of a, b, c and d.."
X responds (conveniently bypassing any reference to a, b,c or d) "yeah well you smell"..or "I don't deal with trolls"...or "yeah well you're just one of them would-be class warriors with a chip on your shoulder and an aversion to civilised discourse"
monkeyfish (in one of his "many guises") thinks
"right..game on"
In fact I to the Vizzo, I challenge you to produce one instance where I've ripped into anybody with the sole intention of landing ad-homs..and without justifying my 'attack'
...admittedly, as the 'debate' progresses, such purely personalised and piss-taking diatribes may ensue..but I'm fairly sure I've never jumped in without good cause.
Can you translate, Shaz? ;-)
ReplyDeleteHi ms chin - not looked at Murphy's blog yet. Given the number of trollers who are prepared to equivocate about rape on Cochrane's thread, I'm not surprised that there should be some waving their willies about to take pride in not paying the tax they owe.
ReplyDeleteSomething's gone seriously wrong in this country over the last 30 years or so.
We used to have a sense of community, didn't we? Or, failing that, a sense of shame?
It seems that Thatcherism's legacy is to make a virtue out of being anti-social selfish fuckers with no morality beyond what's good for them and their own.
It amazes me how many posters are so proud to be selfish, greedy and completely lacking in any sort of conscience.
thauma... well, I'm doing okay with the odd 'Denis Leamy' & 'Stringer', but the rest... bit challenging... how about you?
ReplyDeleteErm ... Shaz ... not even quite sure which poor sod has gone off injured. Got name, but not position.
ReplyDeleteJust looked at Waddaya
ReplyDeleteWhat was Ms Nadifa posting? She seems to have upset you-know-who who in turn seems to have accused her of being me or Atomboy..strange I clicked on her profile and although she's been deleted, the number of recommends is still there..she seems to have said something fairly 'popular'..what was it?
Also..she seems fairly genuine to me..never known Atomboy to post in role, always seems fairly clear when it's him..recognisably Atomboy
She's been accused of having a "large following"..WTF is that meant to imply?
MF - someone else accused her of being Halgeel (I think), so there's a wide interpretation there! Did not see her deleted comments.
ReplyDeleteRight I'm nipping out for a couple of pints (literally)..how fuckin sad is that?
ReplyDeleteThauma... quite!
ReplyDeleteHalf-time ... humph ... expected Munster to be up by more than 6 pts!
ReplyDeleteExpect they'll be bringing on O'Gara and others after the break.
Found English audio! http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/6407137.stm
ReplyDelete@MF
ReplyDeleteYour piss-taking diatribes are funny, for sure. but you're so quick to get all indignant if someone takes a shot back at you, that's the part that doesn't really add up.
MsNadifa posted some lengthy stuff at Martyn, calling him a woman-hater and asking if he'd like to attend one of her women's meetings to pour the drinks.
Thauma - thanks for that! :o)
ReplyDeleteThat tax thread is an extra specially vile one, Charley Says (is he Proff Plums btw) calls for people to do their civic duty and grass on benefit cheats because they are a cancer at the heart of society while bragging about his own tax evasion exploits, what a brain dead shit head he is.
ReplyDeleteI think it might be time for another rest from reading comments.
Ooh, ROG is warming up! Yay!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"We used to have a sense of community, didn't we? Or, failing that, a sense of shame?"
ReplyDeleteI think the latter is reliant, to a degree, on the former. Once its every man for himself the idea of "shame" doesnt really amount to much. The most depressing comment I've seen lately was on Milne, some subhuman was saying how much he would be "cheering" on the cuts, to end that nasty "bloated public sector sucking him dry".
Quite amazing really. That after a trillion pounds of public money being given to millionaires and then two Etonians using it as a pretext to strip the nation of rights and benefits fought for over centuries, and this poster was "cheering". I couldnt think of any reply that would be both suitable and likely to survive more than 30 seconds so gave up in the end.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNot sure about Plums = Charley. Plums seemed to have a better sense of humour to me.
ReplyDeleteBut I'm usually wrong about these things.
We need DOC on now!!!
bloody formating........
ReplyDeleteMF
MF
Ms Nadifa seems to be a Somali woman living in London according to her comments page and and was complaining about institutional and other racism. She is supportive of Oona King and said in one post:
I would implore Ms King to tackle the culture of endemic institutional racism and sexism in the City Hall
She seems to have crossed swords with Senor Cordoba, who weirdly, describes himself as a 'radical feminist' on his profile.
Very disappointed to hear that The Beast is supporting the senior milipede.
Bloody Paterson. Man is a machine.
ReplyDeleteHank
ReplyDeleteI heard on the radio that some German bank wants some enormous sum from the govt to boost its reserves to some required new level, following some decision involving the Swiss somewhere. Essentially, other banks will be stampeding to govts looking for another handout from the taxpayer. Have I got this right or was there something in my coffee this morning?
In my defence, the lack of detail in recounting the above is down to a) being useless at economics and b) simultaneously listening to tales of what happened at work the day before last, from my other half.
Jen
There's trolls and there's odious bastards, both aplenty on the tax thread.
Shaz
ReplyDeleteI often hope that some of the nastier stuff that is posted is just spur of the moment posturing and that they don't really believe the things they say but it is so widespread I have to think they mean it.
I think a lot of people are going to have a rude awakening when they find themselves in the same position as those they seem to hate so much, even so I doubt it will change their minds, people always find ways to persuade themselves that their situation is special.
ROG, DOC and the Bull on! Let's go...
ReplyDeleteGood one D O'C... & R O'G of course...
ReplyDeletethauma's happy tonight!
ReplyDeleteGood grief MsChin, commentator's curse... Edinburgh just equalised...
ReplyDeleteMsChin
ReplyDelete*was* happy
Bloody Paterson.
Still, we'll have another try.
...or a penalty...
ReplyDeleteROOOOOOG!!!
ReplyDeleteAnd again! Watta kick!
ReplyDelete"Your piss-taking diatribes are funny, for sure. but you're so quick to get all indignant if someone takes a shot back at you, that's the part that doesn't really add up."
ReplyDelete"...doesn't really add up."
I'm a time-served, tradesman piss-taker, of course it makes sense..there's a mechanic two doors down from me...imagine he looked out and I'm under the bonnet of his car, fucking about and I shout over "didn't sound too good to me..thought I'd have a go and tune it up"
I ask you..how's he gonna feel?
MF - he's gonna engineer an oil leak, of course.
ReplyDeleteJohn Hayes weighs 20 stone?
ReplyDeleteGood result, I suppose. Coulda been better.
ReplyDelete20 stone, aye, same as the lad he replaced.
ReplyDelete@Jay
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, the public sector IS bloated. We've talked about this before - if you think it should be bloated and inefficient, then say so. There is an argument to be made there.
But you can't say there isn't waste, because that's disingenuous. It'll only result in you losing the debate, because the waste & inefficiency is there for all to see.
@MF
ReplyDeleteFair play.
Vzzo - it is wasteful, of course, so is every single organisation, public or private, in the world. I dont quite follow how that leads to "cheering" cuts of 25-40% across our services?
ReplyDeleteDont worry about me losing the debate, i usually do alright. You explain to me why we should "cheer" the cuts being lined up and we'll take it from there. If you dont think they should be "cheered" then im not sure what we're arguing about.
Zounds..on waddaya
ReplyDelete"Wow, this place has really gone downhill, hasn't it?"
yep...Stepford ain't what it used to be
Not a bad result though
ReplyDeleteNo, Shaz, not bad!
ReplyDeleteRe public sector bloated: I've always worked in the private sector and it's fucking full of useless cunts earning enormous salaries to do nothing except impede the progress of people who actually want to get work done.
I expect most of the public sector useless cunts are making rather less.
Right, off back home now ... gloating in victory!
Im really under no illusions about public sector "waste" - i get the inside news from Brighton council where they are paying for people to come in and give people counselling about the stress of "returning from sick leave", which really sums up that council in a nutshell.
ReplyDeleteBut there are two issues here - "waste" in terms of staff is a tricky one, the idea that you save public money by putting these people on dole and social housing is highly questionable, thats ignoring the social consequences and their costs.
The second point is one of basic humanity - you do not "cheer" hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs regardless of the circumstances.
I am utterly fed up (working in a school) with only being able to employ LA-approved contractors for important structural work, which is usually significantly more expensive - and shoddily done later than the contract stated -
ReplyDeleteFor example...one of the lights in our library caught fire yesterday. The earliest the LA approved contractor can come out? Monday evening.
If we could put work out to local tender, it would be completed on time, to a higher standard, much more cheaply. But we're not allowed to.
thethe
ReplyDelete@ Jay and IttV. Trouble with the cuts is the fuckwitted, all-or-nothing stances being taken. New Lab created wasteful structures and bodies (didn't employ that many in 'em, but they earned a lot: a type of patronage went on/goes on too. Just check out some of the weird fiefdoms in the Dept of Health fr'instance. The Tories take that as some kind of proof that the whole of the public sector needs razing to the ground (and the patronage continues, with pals in certain PLCs to benefit).
ReplyDeleteLabour's take is preferable, but only on the grounds that it has a lower human cost and means that the essentials in public services aren't lost.
What neither are at all capable of is focused, targeted cuts: Labour because of incompetence, and not wishing to unseat apparatchiks; also their general professional-politician remoteness from the practicalities of public services and infatuation with the worst aspects of technocratic management consultancy bullshit and systems.The ConDems, because it's an article of faith for them that public sector = bad, private sector goo, despite the fucking huge elephant in the room that they are different beasts, with different purposes.
As I put to IttV on CiF t other day,
"Past experience tells us that people from the private sector, so convinced that they know so much better, have tended to come a little unstuck in the public sector. And I think – a bold proposition in itself – that it’s because of the nature of the public sector beast.It's services that have to be universal, along with infrastructure too, and preserving the systems by which society functions (eg legal system, regulation), that the private sector either never touches, or comes at from completely the opposite perspective to that required by the state, and the interplay between all of these. Too many management consultants don’t know, and couldn't, what the knock-on effects will be because that’s not their background. They can sometimes be demonstrably good at getting businesses to be much more profitable (sometimes: as pointed out, too often they're simply a very expensive form or back-covering by the firm's management for changes they don't want to be seen doing themselves).That’s not the same as being efficient although it’s easy to assume that it is.Desirable public service 'outputs' are way more complicated (from life expectancy, to educational standards to crime rates to defence to justice to quality of life etc etc) than the single, narrow metric of profit.In fact what public services are judged by primarily, by the public are outcomes, rather than outputs. I'm not saying one's easier than the other, but that they are very very different."
(will continue...)
Hi All
ReplyDeleteGood tune Hank, takes me back.
One for the ladies;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-N5KyfsnDk&feature=related
(...contd)
ReplyDelete"Supporters of public services must never fall into the trap of defending inefficiency or opposing changes that genuinely improve public services.However, attempts to measure public sector efficiency are almost always deeply flawed and narrow. Efficiency is simply a measure of outputs against inputs
The problem is that the public sector does not lend itself to such crude measures. If you double class sizes and exam results only decline by a third, then that class has become more efficient. Yet the education system is worse as a result.Again, it's back to the duty to preserve the universal, to maintain the system that marks out the public sector.Quite different to the private sector where the system (including the market itself) is something to be gamed/exploited/subverted wherever possible.
In too much discussion of the public sector, including amongst policy-makers themselves, productivity and effectiveness are often wrongly used as if they are interchangeable. But effectiveness is actually a very different measure – defined as the ratio of the outcomes which an organisation aims to achieve, divided by the total inputs. Thus, effectiveness in the public sector is a much more complex concept and is far more subject to measurement error and to influences from outside developments. Outcomes are far more elusive and trickier than outputs, more changeable, and conditional upon social & political vagaries and many,many other externalities.
Those of us who argue for a public realm say that some activities simply do not lend themselves to private sector/market solutions, just as most of us accept the converse – that some activities should not be done by the state"
I'd add to this about the inability of Governments these days, because of the technocratic mindset. Too many in the upper echelons fail to appreciate the realities. There are the realities of what any work or service entails but more pointedly the realities of workforc. It's very easy, but potentially disastrous, to mistake roles, and places in a neat organisational structure for functions and most pointedly functionality. An example of this is to consider a local CMHT to me. It has a consultant psychiatrist, some CPNs, an OT,and an 'outreach worker'. Looked at schematically, the consultant will stay, being a clinician, the CPNs will be trimmed, and the nebulously titled outreach worker will go.Trouble is, in terms of functionality, it's the outreach worker who keeps the whole damn show on the road, doing way over and above what the title suggests, and is the one who acts as the glue holding things together so that there is some kind of a service at all.She's the one who finds out what the hell's going on in the wider community, where collaborations might be made, to in the end save resources.
It's a false knowledge base that the Govt is operating from, one which is mapped and charted, and the basis for how they are identifying where to cut first, but incapable of drilling down to know who's doing the real graft, or whose work provides added value.
Thanks Boudican. A timeless track!
ReplyDeleteI've not bothered reading back through the last week's comings and goings, nor did I bother with reading the guff from the new Cif editor this week.
So, can someone summarise the last 7 days?
Just to clarify:
ReplyDeleteI am not MsNadifa and have neither heard of her nor noticed her.
I have not posted on CiF for some days and had a couple of names banned/pre-modded as soon as I did not sing praises and hosannas for the new woman who has taken over from the execrable Seaton.
The future direction seems to be clear from the thousand odd comments, about eighty percent of which complained about moderation and Ms Hanman's pointedly picking only those which did not present problems - and, presumably, asking the moderators to press the banning-button like the wind.
Monkeyfish is right that I never really try to disguise my tone or style or attempt to convincingly pretend to be anyone else, apart from sometimes as a couple of initial test runs to see whether I am going to be banned from the start.
Now that other news sites, like The Independent, are getting better and more popular with commenting and debate, I do not see the point in trying to help CiF any more.
I may keep a couple of names in reserve over there and take them out for a spin every now and then, but I think both it and its users are better left to wallow in the shit of their making.
Alisdair
ReplyDeleterighteous post
Hank
"So, can someone summarise the last 7 days?"
week
cracker wasn't it?
ReplyDeletethought it was a crossword clue
How you been anyway?
Alisdair
ReplyDeleteAh, but the govt has decided that the public sector is to be judged through public access to its data, which will be free to all (including for commercial use). I can't imagine many citizens will be interested enough to pore over 1000s of datasets for fun (although it's a pastime that will doubtless suit some). But it's all about data & balance sheets and fuck the outcomes for service users.
@Alisdair
ReplyDeleteBut the government will be judged in the end on outcomes, not savings alone. They must be conscious that having more people slip through the net - into addiction, homelessness, prison, whatever - will reflect negatively on their standing, and will hand the opposition some powerful arguments at election time.
Is it so impossible that there are substantial savings to be made from pure waste alone, i.e. without much impact to the services themselves?
Jay's point, that it's better to spend an extra 5k to keep someone in work rather than on benefits, makes sense, but it needs to be honestly put forward - it's basically the spirit level argument. Which I still haven't got round to reading.
I to the Vizzo, welcome.
ReplyDelete"But the government will be judged in the end on outcomes, not savings alone. They must be conscious that having more people slip through the net - into addiction, homelessness, prison, whatever - will reflect negatively on their standing, and will hand the opposition some powerful arguments at election time."
They don't give a fuck.
I'm ok thanks, MF. How about you?
ReplyDeleteWho's this I to the Vizzo fella btw? Is he the third Miliband brother?
As another weekend of Association football beckons, I wonder if the UT fancies adopting Halifax Ziggy's Spice House League as the official UT football league for this season?
ReplyDeleteAfter only three games, the league has already chalked up scorelines of 9-1, 7-4 and last weekend Stainland Utd gubbed Junction AFC 15-6.
It's unclear whether Ziggy's spice house is a curry shop or kebab shop but fair play to them for digging deep and sponsoring Halifax's 26th most prestigious league.
We are now on the verge of bailing out crooks in an Afghan banking system that crashed, just like the economic crisis here, due to irresponsible loans and real estate boondoggles. Just like we did here, we will be bailing out the fat-cat crooks who caused the crisis. And just like here, the poor and working people will suffer.
ReplyDeleteThe corruption conundrum
I wonder if the UT fancies adopting Halifax Ziggy's Spice House League
ReplyDeleteFine by me Yr Grace...although I know zilch about football. Do I have to choose a team?
Sheff,
ReplyDeletegoing by some of the scores I don't believe that the participants nor officials of Halifax Ziggy's Spice House League know much about football either so fill your boots.
I notice that Salem were bottom of the league last season and have started the same this year. If they hadn't got rid of all their witches, they may have cast a few spells to see them on their way.
Alisdair,
great posts.
@HankScorpio
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm the little-known Cornelius Miliband. They have kept me in the loft all my life and fed me fish-heads and nettles.
I have managed to sneak Dave's old laptop upstairs and have logged on to the neighbours' wireless.
Put me down for the Volunteer Arms Yr Grace. They're obviously very middling but you never know...
ReplyDelete@I to the Vizzo
ReplyDeleteOh right, ok. Well done to you.
Er, mmm, how are your cucumbers doing?
@ IttV. The time-lag will prove the killer: by the time the outcomes are proved to have deteriorated, the people in services capable of arresting that decline will be redundant or dispersed. I'd also suggest that there will be untold spin, demonisation and scapegoating should, as seems likely,much of the basic fabric of the UK's civil society begin to unravel.
ReplyDeleteThere are savings to made against pure waste, but this Govt won't do that, preferring to throw the baby out with the bathwater at quite astonishing,breakneck, speed.For them it's ideological, not practical. The last Govt was incapable of it too: for them it was tied in with technocratic, managerialist delusions of competence and knowledge,self-serving structures and smoke'n'mirrors economics, again nothing to do with the practical. Not that it's an easy task (c.f. every Govt since WWII) as demonstrated by the Gershon review(s):'pure waste' proved to be very hard to identify, complicated by politicians ruling their pet projects out of bounds, or their cronies' fiefdoms off-limits. Add in pressure groups, and damnably, the tendency of those charged directly with identifying waste to themselves commit the politicians' sins (cronyism, looking after themselves, preserving their own position and role) and it's much,much tougher than you'd think.Incidentally this problem in identifying waste isn't confined to the public sector, although some of the complicating factors (political pressures,etc) apply less.
These are problems with large organisations, especially those which are required to do bureaucratic tasks. Much of this was described by Weber about 150 years ago.
Hank
ReplyDeleteIn a far from secure, and ten million miles from permanent, state of employment in the middle of the area voted by an audience poll to be the least resilient to the coming onslaught..Osbourne's dream visit to Teesside
..and the kids get lairier by the day and it's fuckin raining and chicken used to taste like chicken...
basically scraping by on pure cool and the knowledge that the X factor's waiting for me when my day of rest comes..etc
Oh yeah
ReplyDeletedon't know who I to the Visso is..kinda giving the benefit at present
@Your Grace
ReplyDeleteOne of my oldest friends was born in Sowerby Bridge, and my great-uncle Theodore apparently used to wind the church clock there until he got too old to mount the ladder. I still have the silver watch he was given on retirement.
So, without more preamble, I shall adopt the league leaders, and you can call me a glory hunter if you wish.
Thing about coalition governments, ITotheVizzo, is, nobody really knows if they're going to last another week, or another ten years.
ReplyDeleteSo the people involved in them tend to take what they can as quickly as possible. Hence the ability to not claim back bankers' debts, the desire to sell off anything that's left in the public purse, the desire to cut back public spending and entirely ring fence defence contracts with companies that give them or their friends money.
If you want to judge them when they've done that, fair enough. Many of us can see what they are doing now and none of it is in the interests of the nation.
Plus what Alisdair said to you.
I see cif have got a piece up by Redwood. I really don't think I can face it sober. This not drinking malarky, and on a friday night too, is a bit of a facer.
ReplyDeleteApparently nobody has worked it out yet, 'I to the Vizzo' is OZXYZ666754321 (or whatever the fuck he's called) on Cif (Ivo Hypocritovic) and he's a neo-con wanker who claims he's 'left wing' and has somehow been embraced by the bourgeois elite on Cif and the Cif commissioning editors. He recently wrote a very important article on Cif about who he was supporting for the Labour party leadership. And he has just started his own blog which is he is shamelessly whoring to the luvvies on waddya. It's probably only a coincidence that he turns up today on the Untrusted for the first time. I'll just save monkeyfish and hank the bother here and call him a cunt straight away, and I'll also save Martyn and Charles the bother of saying that he has consistently been one of the best posters on Cif ever. Various other undiscrimating dimwits here will probably say 'hi, vizzo, welcome!' But they probably shouldn't.
ReplyDeleteLove and kisses, an occasional very unwelcome visitor (thx Montana).
Scherfig
@MF - give those you know the benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDeleteAs for those you don't know, fuck 'em.
There's too many right-wing trolls on here, and too many right-wing twats on Cif.
It really does defy belief how often intelligent left-wing posts get deleted over at Cif.
Btw, I think "I to the Visso" is Bracken. Not that it matters. There's not much to choose between Bracken and the other right-wing fuckwits who ponce about over here.
...or it could be scherfig...
ReplyDeleteBut why would it be scherfig? What point would be made if it was just scherfig?
Nothing political obviously. What point is scherfig trying to make?
It's all very sad....
@Scherfig
ReplyDeleteWho's charles?
btw, 'vizzo' describes his 'blog list' as Cif, untimely sound and the Untrusted! I don't hang around here much any more so I can't really comment, but perhaps you guys know a bit more about Ivo and his connection to this blog. Or perhaps not?
ReplyDelete"Who's charles?"
ReplyDeleteor..more to the point..
but anyway...he's just a precocious scamp..aka
Napoleon Whogivesafuck
Perhaps not.
ReplyDeleteLet it go, mate.
@Alisdair
ReplyDeleteYou certainly make it sound incredibly difficult to identify waste, but as I was saying the other day on Cif I have worked in some government offices, and have dealt with a few in the past form a user standpoint, and the layers of unnecessary bureaucracy and management are immediately apparent.
In essence I agree that the government's stance is ideological, and I'm not in favour of rolling the state back to the degree they want. But if we take each argument on its separate merit, then public sector waste, if properly dealt with, can result in savings. The fact that those savings mean lost jobs, and potentially more societal problems as a result (as jay said) is a separate argument, an done that needs to be made.
But what I'm hearing too often is that the government are falsely pointing to inefficiencies and waste, where there aren't any (I appreciate you're not saying that). That's the position Labour took, and it certainly didn't help them.
I'm new to blogger generally. I put this on my 'blog list' because I don't have much else to put on there. Have I implied I'm affiliated with the site in some way? I'll take it off the list if so.
ReplyDeleteJust found via Jason Kottke; Oscar-winning animated short, Logorama.
ReplyDeleteVizzo
ReplyDeleteseveral posters have been asking Cif to run a series on the cuts - both to benefits and public sector - and their connection to personal and societal breakdown.
We unfortunately are not getting support - too many people wanting to scapegoat in the hope of protecting themse;ves.
There is waste in all enterprises - public and private. if genuine waste is identified and removed then savings will be made.
what has to be examined is where will 'savings' have their greatest impact. A cut back in spending in one area is a loss of income in another.
Creating job losses and throwing more people onto benefits whilst reducing the benefits bill suggests economic illiteracy. These policies lack cohesion and any internal structure - they are random and punitive against one section of society.
Is it of greater value to society to pay off the national debt (always with us ) or to guard against unfair and unreasoned cuts which will damage lives and communities ?
Anyway, talk among youselves. I'm off. Here's a song for monkeyfish, hank and bitterweed (and some others)
ReplyDeletesad mans tongue
@scherfig - what is your fucking problem? You've obviously been lurking here for a while, and this site has been troubled by other lurkers, and some people on here added 2 + 2 and made you.
ReplyDeleteAnd then you turned up.
It's not that fucking surprising that some on here made you as number 4.
Do what you want, scherfig. I miss you, I think that you were a good poster over here, but I'm just a bit fucking bored of the whole poncy backbiting Cif-fallout scene.
Hi hank, how's it going?
ReplyDelete."You've obviously been lurking here for a while" Yeah, montana said that too last time I dared to comment here (for the first time in about a month). It's not actually true, since the place is not that interesting to me anymore, but I do look in very occasionally, although I don't often feel the urge to comment. Tonight was a bit of an exception - just couldn't resist. I dare say I'll get over it, and if I 'lurk' again I'll try to be strong.
All the best.
Hi scherfig, I'm ok thanks mate.
ReplyDeleteYou've got my number. Give me a call. You're missed on here by some of us. Well, me, at least.
All the best, ame - martin(-;
Hi Leni
ReplyDeleteHave just seen your post on waddya.Things seem to be getting bleaker by the day.The possible means-testing of ESA on top of DLA defies belief but as we've said before the sick are an easy target and the ConDems clearly have the support of much of the media for these measures.Anyway we mustn't lose hope.
Here's a tune i like{ Brings back lots of happy memories.
Hello everyone: I'm in Drogheda tonight. Can't keep up with the thread.
ReplyDeleteThe hot topic over here is "Nama"..is that a person or an organization?
Just caught the "Late Show" on RTE with people being interviewed who want to emigrate to Australia.
According to the chat on the radio the Anglo/Irish deal is just another con job.
"Hi leni
ReplyDeleteHave just seen your post on Waddya..."
How can anyone know me when I don't even know myself...
@chekhov
ReplyDeleteNAMA is the Irish Government's 'bad bank', where it's going to hide away all the duff assets in its banking system. Part of the corrupt bailout that's going on over there.
Very cryptic Hank.You alright?
ReplyDeleteHi chekhov
Nama is some asset management agency in the Rep of Ireland.You still stuck in the car park at Dublin airport :-)
Hi Paul
ReplyDeletei'm like Hank - really bored with the back and forth between her and waddya. i'm not posting on Cif - 'cept for the odd thing on waddya to try to keep things in the eye over there.
The rantings on cif become less and less realistic. Fed up with 'bleeding heart' attacks on anyone who queries current policies.
are these people blind ? Do they understand the probable fallout of trying to starve millions in an attempt to impose not only unfair systems but systems which are bound to fail onto us ?
I am on the side of the workers and the sick but even if I weren't I would be concerned about the social problems this gvt. is creating. they defy common sense and go against any understanding of how societies work. The British people will not be prepared to go back to deference and servility - I hope .
does this gvt., its supporters and enforcers really believe they can take us all back to the 18th century ?
hello Chekhov
ReplyDeleteAre you on your way home yet? I've given up trying to understand banks and their doings - they are apparently perfectly legal criminal structures operating legally in an illegal manner.
"very cryptic, Hank"
ReplyDeleteNot really, Paul. I'd ask you which side you were on, but, to be completely fucking honest, I don't give a shit.
As for Leni - well, I like Leni. She's genuine.
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ReplyDeletea
ReplyDeleteHank
ReplyDeleteNot really, Paul. I'd ask you which side you were on, but, to be completely fucking honest, I don't give a shit.
As for Leni - well, I like Leni. She's genuine.
Very barbed comment there but you know what i ain't gonna lose sleep over it.FWIW i,ve always liked your online personnae and i'd genuinely like to meet you some day.I know we've had a few misunderstandings or whatever but i didn't think it was any big deal.I think you're a fucking good poster and i hope you'll be back posting on CIF as HS before too long.
Anyways you have yourself a nice weekend.
Nite.
"This post has been removed by the author."
ReplyDelete"a"
Hank
ReplyDeleteHi - miss you bein around.
I see even the G is printing template letters for people to challenge taxman who claims they owe tax.
there is a moral issue here. Should people pay up if it was not their mistake ?
what about people who have now retired or recently lost their job ?
So many of the super rich manage to operate without benefit of taxman and get away with it -little wonder that the average man is objecting.
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ReplyDeleteHi Leni - you don't really miss me being around!
ReplyDeleteHank
ReplyDeletedon't be an idiot .
i do miss you . you amuse and entertain me - you are intelligent - sometimes a bit daft I have to say - but yes , I miss you. Don't care if you don't believe me. But i don't intend to argue with you.
xx
Hank
ReplyDeleteI read your now deleted post and i'm genuinely shocked that i ever gave you that impression.All i can say is that i'm sorry and when i get my arse up to Sheffield i'll buy you a pint.FWIW i've always thought of you as a sound bloke irrespective of any disagreements we've had.
Hope that's cleared things up :-)
Transit. Old Banger. Scunthorpe. Collect only
ReplyDeleteStats thing is very interesting. According to it, we've had a visitor from Iran today.
ReplyDelete