Olching re PTSD and I/P. Its not an excuse but it could help understanding I think, on this level I think its complicated because how do you put a country into therapy>
Its obvious that the state of Israel is in massive denial and, as with all bullies, they can only justify their behaviour to themselves by demonising the Palestinians. Their exageration of the effects of the rockets launched from Gaza when Gaza has been bombed into the stone age is evidence for this. Its not rational but tbh if the first casualty of war is truth the second must be rationality.
In the final analysis though the reason for the interminable nature of the problem is the Support of the SOI by the US. Without that the problem would have been solved by now - one way or another.
It never really went away, of course, but was just exported to lands far, far away, where Johnny Foreigners wear strange clothes and speak funny.
Now it's finally coming back home.
..............
Ministers plans to rescue 'lost generation' of young jobless
Young unemployed people are to be offered guarantees of work experience in private companies amid fears that lengthening dole queues could create a "lost generation".
The new scheme will be targeted initially at young people most at risk of joining the ranks of the long-term jobless and living in areas of high unemployment.
Those offered work would be unpaid and would still have to rely on their benefit payments.
A coalition source said: "This is an absolutely key part of our move to get growth up the agenda by focusing much more on the needs of business." [...]
It is understood ministers may, in particular, target the construction sector in their efforts to get youngsters off the dole.
Building firms have, in recent years, given short-term jobs to immigrant workers, mainly from Eastern Europe – a source of labour which has begun to dry up amid harsher economic times in Britain.
...............
So, apparently, we are all Americans now if we are rich and successful - and all Polish immigrants if we need to work for no pay to restore wealth and wellbeing to Broekn Britain.
We are all in this together.
Some of us floating in the lovely heavens of blue sky thinking and the rest stuck in the sewage and slurry at the bottom of the heap.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply sell the unemployed to big business?
Bloody hell - is that what the Tories call 'growth'? Slave Labour?
Jesus Christ - the presumption is that they'll be so desperate they'll do anything and if they refuse, their benefit will be cut. Once again young people are the whipping boys and girls for Tory ideology.
This is the ridiculous right-wing notion that all debate should be framed around the meaningless question of Israel's 'right to exist'. It's a fact, it's there. No one needs to premise it with a meaningless phrase.
And of course bear in mind that countries are just constructs and in the case of Israel (less so in Finland's case), it is apparent that it was violently constructed. There is nothing innate about Israel unless you believe in the divine providence of Jews, which I don't.
There is no reason for there to be a Jewish state in the ME, and yes of course it would make more sense for it to be in east-central Europe since most of their cultural reference points existed there. Since WWII marked a major rupture for the communities, the existing land-grabbing that was occurring with the acceptance of Britain was framed as somehow legitimate because of the Holocaust, but that is nonsense of course.
Put this way, Charles, if Glasgow or the Outer Hebrides (I think you're from one or the other, or both) had been designated as the new Israel (why not, after all there was/is a Jewish community in Glasgow) and you and your family would therefore be living in the refugee status and being treated as barely human, I take it you'd be telling us how that is perfectly reasonable, as some of the citizens of this arbitrarily constructed state suffered in an event 70 years ago. Or probably not...and that's the position vis-a-vis Palestinians and the Bedouin.
It's obvious that you either don't have a clue or are simply right-wing (or both). There are not two equal sides to the story. One is based on the explicit disenfranchisement of Palestinians.
As I say, there is nothing innate about 'Jewish' land in the ME - and by the way the indigenous Jews have been treated appallingly by the SOI. Unless you literally believe in Bible Stories, namely that the Jews of east-central Europe and of Russia and of the US are direct descendants of David (and even then that this means there is some kind of right to return - in the same way that, say, the English could demand a return to the Baltic Sea area, coz that's 'where they are from', though the link is absurd and the logic even more so), Israel simply looks like a state created on western-sanctioned violence.
Of course, Charles, you won't address any of these points, but rather fall back on those trite points about Holocaust memory and meaningless phrases of 'right to exist'.
Annetan, I have really stopped buying the post-traumatic stress syndrome argument. It's nonsense. It makes no sense 70 years on for members of a state to be living with the notion of the Holocaust. Leaving aside the fact that not all Israelis can tell a direct history of the Holocaust, it is also the case that the Holocaust simply isn't an Israeli memory trope anyway. It's become a global memory cudgel with which we can justify anything. A quicker emptying out of meaning has rarely occurred vis-a-vis historical events.
But I suppose your argument is far more subtle than that, namely that the Holocaust has functioned as thus, precisely because Israelis have begun to believe their own myth.
"Islam really isn't any scarier than any other religion, on its own. I'll grant that the way it is interpreted and practised is often pretty dire, but that's not the fault of the religion itself."
In terms of the scripture its no more repellent than the Old Testament, granted, but like any ideology if the "bad apples" seem to exert a large enough influence, then it cannot be wished away, they're not really X, Y, Z, they've got it wrong, the *real* ideology is sweetness and light save for their corruption of its purity... and this applies to just about every ideology going (political and religious).
Most of these corruptions are fairly specific to their ideology, so the seeds of them, however misguided, seem to lay within those beliefs and doctrines. Instead of addressing these and reforming them, zealots of all types insist the scripture is right (or whichever texts are "sacred" to the belief in question, even secular systems), and the wrongdoers have simply not understood it.
The West has propped up all sorts of odious regimes in the ME, frequently hardline Islamists, like Saudi, against reformist, secularist opposition. But thats an argument against the religion, not in its favour. Take Iran, the hardliners won, not the secularists (in any meaningful way), spurred on by resentment against Western control.
Lots of religious faults are absolutely the fault of the religion. Take the Xtian fundies, their supporting quotes come from the Bible. I dont know why we still keep up the myth that religions are essentially benign - they aren't. "Good" believers are those who reject vast swathes of their scripture.
If religions are the texts, old testament and Koran are pretty odious. If religions are a mixture of text and application, well, doesnt improve the picture much.
"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."
Quran 8:12,
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage."
Quran 2:190-2:191
"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."
Quran 9:5;
"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.
Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: "Taste the torment of the Conflagration!"
Quran 22:19-20,"
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Really excellent posts re: SOI. I saw Nap's comments yesterday and I saw red. Was too wound up with other things to comment further than I did and glad you both had the energy to counter such right-wing mischief-and-myth-making.
@Montana
Thanks for the belated Rab ;) Hope Joe is on the mend?
@Sheff - really sorry to hear the sad news of your family friend. :(
Been embroiled in (unsuccessfully) trying to get a small loan from the Credit Union I've belonged to for nigh on 12 years.
As it has grown and become evermore successful, it has started to behave like a high street bank, but without any of the professionalism.
If fucked up my weekend (a decision was promised by Friday which failed to materialise) and I see it now as synonymous with the warped ethics of Nu Labour.
What started as a community-spirited enterprise to help the poor and vulnerable, has become high-jacked by middle-class busy-bodies empowering (and enriching)themselves in the name of mutual-ownership in the midst of an impoverished community they purport to help. Fucking fuckers.
I've been so angry and disappointed about it - particularly as they have been holding me to ransom with excuse that Mr La Rit has an outstanding debt (in his own separate account) - completely unethical.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. Luke 12:47-48
Of course, the translation is toned down. The original clearly says "slave", rather than "servant". So Jesus not only approves of slavery, but reckons a slave who innocently gets it wrong should still be whipped, just not so hard.
This is the ridiculous right-wing notion that all debate should be framed around the meaningless question of Israel's 'right to exist'.
Here’s the position on Israel’s right to exist taken by Egyptian MB founder Hassan al-Banna:
“Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
And this is quoted in the preface to Hamas’s charter. So when a political party on this sort of platform comes in with a landslide in Palestine, as they did in 2006, then Israel’s right to exist is clearly far from a ‘meaningless’ question. The way I read NapK’s original point is that, if a two state solution is ever to be reached, Hamas and all other political and religious voices across the ME that currently question or cast doubt on Israel’s right to exist will need to cease and desist.
It’s a completely non-controversial point - Israel deliberately use the ‘siege’ narrative to justify their actions, and rhetoric like the above gives them the pretence. And when Ahmadinejad weighs in, Israel have real cause for concern since he has somewhat more muscle than the average Palestinian Imam.
I don’t think anyone’s claiming that Israel is justified in everything they do because their right to exist is questioned, or that all debate needs to pivot on this point. But rather that both sides will need to simmer down before any sort of resolution can happen.
I agree with you that nations are constructs and there’s nothing inherent about Israel that means it belongs to the Jews, but you could follow the same logic and say there’s nothing inherent about the Palestinians’ and Bedouins’ claim on the land either.
"A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)"
Morning all, at home sick with some dizziness problem so can't drive.
Just saw this guy Lord Carlile saying the control orders were absolutely necessary and each and every person so help was a suspect etc etc. Funny, there was an item shortly before about a Muslim convert who was held because his brother or someone he knew anyway, was a suspect (also on a control order I guess). Anyway, the interviewers never question it! Just take it as a given when here was evidence of not 100% of every case.
He was quite confident that the people held were dangerous.
Oh yes and how many are actually successfully charged, face trail and sentenced? A very small percentage, like the poison plot with nician (or somesuch).
"Oh yes and how many are actually successfully charged, face trail and sentenced? A very small percentage, like the poison plot with nician (or somesuch)."
Why does Hamas exist? Because Palestinians just simply love to hate Jews? No, but because of the systematic erosion of franchise and rights of Palestinians by the state of Israel.
Like Spike, but perhaps slightly differently, I would say that no state has the 'right to exist' (they are after all constructs) but rather has to continuously legitimise and argue and prove this 'right'.
Did Nazi Germany have the right to exist? No, of course not. Does the EU have a right to exist?
"But rather that both sides will need to simmer down before any sort of resolution can happen."
This is relativism at its worst. Oh, both sides are equally to blame, both sides are equal in everything. Bollocks. The radical movements among Palestinians et al are solely down to Israel's racist policies.
It's Israel, as is now even more apparent, that has the onus to prove its 'right to exist' (i.e. its humanity).
"Interesting how the brief for the Bank of Eng - (to keep inflation under control) has been redefined/expanded into general oversight/control of the nations economic well being."
Indeed - was always pure dogmatic idiocy that monetary policy should respond only to inflation, so now a key plank of economic policy is taken away from democratic control. King has had enormous influence on the post-crash response.
Hi Jay, the comment was not directed to anyone in particular, just an off-the-cuff thought that ran through my brain at that point in relation to my previous post about control orders.
"I agree with you that nations are constructs and there’s nothing inherent about Israel that means it belongs to the Jews, but you could follow the same logic and say there’s nothing inherent about the Palestinians’ and Bedouins’ claim on the land either."
This is very confused.
On one hand, we are talking about a state (Israel). This is different to the rights of groups or individuals.
But then secondly, there is the question of immediacy. If one group (or institution) takes away the land of another and this is not done in any 'mutual' way (such as the retrospective acceptance, for different reasons, of German Lands becoming Polish etc), then the rights of the takers is not the same of that of the disenfranchised.
You are not comparing like with like, yet you are pretending that you are.
I reckon you could make a logical case that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and defend it - but how is that ever going to contribute to a two-state solution?
I am not claiming that both sides are 'equally' to blame, or even that in retrospect the formation of Israel was a wise move. But it seems to me that any peace process going forward will have to take Israel's 'right to exist' as a non-negotiable starting point, if it's ever going to go anywhere. The notion that they should be expected to perpetually justify their right to exist is totally absurd.
Palestinian radicalism may largely be a direct response to Israeli policy, but it draws on a rich seam of Islamic and Arab anti-Semitism which pre-dates Israel by a margin. So Hamas' charter can't be understood purely as a response to oppression, rather it's symptomatic of a wider perception which only feeds Israel's paranoia and brings us further from a solution.
On the issue of Islamic scripture, Karen Armstrong’s biography of Mohammed has an interesting angle. If we take as a starting point that there is no God and the revelations are man-made, then it follows they’ll closely reflect the time and place where they originated.
7th Century Medina was an oasis divided up into heavily fortified settlements divided by religion - some Jewish ones and some Arab ‘pagan’ ones. The culture was heavily based around raiding and stealing from other settlements, and for the Arabs, vendetta killings. Mohammed and his few hundred followers came from Mecca into this scene without any connections to the existing tribes, and were facing death by starvation - the only way was to raid and kill convoys from the other settlements, and fight pitched battles often to avoid getting slaughtered en masse.
But the problem was that Mohammed’s revelations to date had been peaceful ones, emphasising respect for life, so his followers found it difficult to square that with the new necessity to raid and kill. Armstrong posits that it’s at this point Mohammed started hearing revelations which justified and encouraged war on infidels and Jews - because the resources in Medina were controlled by these groups, and being peaceful and merciful would have meant certain death for all those who followed him from Mecca.
Armstrong’s thesis is - broadly - that the original, peaceful message is the ‘true’ Islam, and the rest is the delivery mechanism, because without the warlike parts, Mohammed’s fledgling movement would have been strangled at birth.
The problem is that the revelations are not presented as fallible or temporal, so in the present day it’s hard for a tiny minority of hard-line believers to disregard the calls to Jihad.
But then secondly, there is the question of immediacy. If one group (or institution) takes away the land of another and this is not done in any 'mutual' way
Agree with that, and I'm not defending the ongoing settlements. I was talking more in broad strokes, i.e. would a Palestinian Arab have any more 'inherent' claim on 'the land' (not an individual patch of land that he owns) than a Jewish person...?
I reckon you could make a logical case that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and defend it - but how is that ever going to contribute to a two-state solution?
But it is the insistence above all else of the State of Israel being specifically a 'Jewish' state, which causes all the problems.
As I've argued many a time on threads on CiF....it's the exclusivity that that implies.... a State only for Jews, which is the problem and therefore it can only exist as a racist entity if defined in purely 'racial/ethnic' terms.
But it seems to me that any peace process going forward will have to take Israel's 'right to exist' as a non-negotiable starting point, if it's ever going to go anywhere.
Right to exist as what?
I heard the same argument so many times in relation to South Africa. "Oh, the Whites are never going to agree to Black majority rule, so you have to accept that and be pragmatic."
No, there are some things I'll never accept and institutionalised racism is one of them.
In fact, I think what will quite possibly happen is that Israel will continue with its crimes until the US loses its superpower status and there's payback and another diaspora.
Depressing and tragic, but at long as Israel remains a rogue, criminal state practising "Jewish" supremacism, it's going to keep on storing up hate for itself.
I put "Jewish" in inverted commas because no-one, especially the supporters of Israel, has ever managed to explain to me what "Jewish" identity is. For the purposes of its law of return, Israel adopts a basically Nazi definition: you're Jewish if one of your grandparents was. Apart from the strange and to me very distasteful idea of defining yourself according to the perception of the people who wanted to wipe you out, the definition is extraordinarily and irrationally self-referential. How do you know that your grandparent was Jewish? Because they had a Jewish grandparent?
If so, I suspect that all Palestinian refugees can claim to be Jewish if they go back two or three thousand years. There must be a Jewish ancestor in there somewhere. Would they then be allowed to benefit from the law of return?
LaRit, ok, but you can't counter one extreme position by taking another one. In any eventual settlement, Palestinians and others will need to resign to Israel's ongoing existence, and Israel will need to backtrack from its exclusivity, since no modern democratic state operates like that.
Last night, the pro-Israel smtx01 called Habib and Montana "revisionist antisemitic fukers" (sic).
TinLaurelandHardy took exception to the abusive antisemitic charge and accused smtx of being a racist. Leopold asked for justification of this.
I said it seemed to me that smtx was a zionist and since I see zionism as a form of racism (as does a UN resolution), a zionist would be a de facto racist.
In that and a number of subsequent posts, I used no strong language or insults or made any abusive accusations, but my posts have been deleted one by one.
smtx's original and IMO libellous post still stands.
I think if Nathalie Hanman has outsourced CiF moderation to Cifwatch, she really should let us know.
Here, for the record, is smtx01's post, still there (with 30 recommends!):
Gosh ive had a a look at that UT, i thought Cif was bad, but what a buch of revisionist antisemitic fukers, hey habib/montanatana manana, and quite a few others(all though not all) ,habib in reply to charles comment totally disses the mere idea that one million Jews were ethnically cleansed from their north african and arab and muslim homleands(including my family/but im half russian as well. Frigen horrible site obssessed with waddya it seems. horrible(delete)
Clearly the CiFWatch mentalers have a grip on CIF. That's outrageous - expect deranged frothers from CiF watch like the unlovely Repunzal and co. mobbing on here before too long. And no doubt a mention in the JC about UT.
How does making a point that by trying to declare a 'racially/ethnically/religiously pure' mean wanting the opposite extreme?
That's missing the point surely?
As for a 'settlement' and a 'two-state' solution, forget it. The SOI has entrenched its position, for the most part, illegally and in contravention of international law for decades.
There never was going to be a 'solution', the only 'solution' being every last Arab is expelled.
Whether or not we like it, sovereignty and nations exist. I am not particularly bound up to Israel, or religion, but when you hear the quotes coming out of the arab world, you can understand why the IDF are on constant alert.
And, as I said before, to echo you're 'all nations are constructs', which I can agree with, why is nobody questioning the right of Finland or Tuvalu to exist? When will the day come when all nations are told that they are invalid, that borders must be torn down, that all government and central authority (including the administration of public services/welfare state) must collapse?
It just is not wrong for a minimum standard in peace negotiations to ask that the large number of countires in the Arab/Muslim world acknowledge that their neighbouring country, a member of the UN and created under a UN mandate has a right to exist.
Whether or not you like the concept of nations Olching et al, the fact is they exist as entities. Mercifully we have organisations like the UN which allow for greater co-operation and compared with every attempt in history to try a 'no nations' ideology I'm much happier with borders and national entities.
I consider myself an internationalist, I like the beauty and diversity of the world, I will hopefully learn more languages in future. But at the same time I recognise the instrinsic rights of sovereignty and self determination among national groupings, with admitteldy arbitrarily defined boudaries.
Spike "I said it seemed to me that smtx was a zionist and since I see zionism as a form of racism (as does a UN resolution), a zionist would be a de facto racist."
Yes, there was. It has since been revoked. The only resolution ever to be revoked in fact. The original resolution was passed in 1975 when the USSR essnetailly told all the poor countries under it's axis to vote for it. It was revoked in 1991.
Here is the map which shows all the countires that think Zionism is racism. Relatedly, it is also the same countires which refuse to acknowledge the mere existence of their fellow UN member state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNGA_4686_Map.png
I consider myself an internationalist, I like the beauty and diversity of the world, I will hopefully learn more languages in future. But at the same time I recognise the instrinsic rights of sovereignty and self determination among national groupings, with admitteldy arbitrarily defined boudaries.
It's a shame that Israel does not share nor recognise the 'beauty and diversity in the world' as you do Charles, nor recognise Internationally declared 'boundaries' as it continues its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and it's relentless pursuit of its own warped identity based purely on racial/religious/ethnic segregation and superiority.
It's a real shame you have selective reading and understanding habits. Like I said, you do have more in common with CiFWatch types than you do here.
"it is also the same countires which refuse to acknowledge the mere existence of their fellow UN member state"
Yes and Israel is the only 'State' which fails to recognise the sovereignty, rights, lands, religion and political choices or autonomy of those millions from whom it has stolen land and occupied for the best part of 70 years.
So explain to us why Zionism and the law of return are not racist. They discriminate on the grounds of being Jewish or not Jewish. Are you saying that's not a form of racism? So "anti-Semitism" isn't a form of racism either?
What is it then? Religious discrimination? In which case, how can bacon-eating Russians be Jews?
Something in their genes perhaps? Then why were the Ethiopian Falasha allowed to immigrate to Israel? They haven't got the local ME genes. Although the Palestinians are from the same gene pool as the Diaspora Jews.
So go on. What is Zionism if not racist? What kind of discrimination is it?
Vizzo would a Palestinian Arab have any more 'inherent' claim on 'the land' (not an individual patch of land that he owns) than a Jewish person...?
I would say not... I would suggest that as the area known until 60 years ago as Palestine is overwhelmingly belongs to the people - be they Christian Muslim or Jew whose families have lived there for the last few thousand years.
I don't think the Jewish Diaspora have any more 'right' to settle there than US citizens have a 'right' to settle in the UK. Individuals may apply to stay here or even apply for citizenship, what they don't have the right to do is to set up an official 52nd state on UK land. The Jewish Diaspora set up a Jewish state on Palestinian land that's not on.
The fact that the Jews lived in 'The Land of Israel' 2000 years ago is neither here nor there. The ancient Britons occupied most of Britain in Roman times. AS one of their descendants I don't consider I have the 'right' to kick out all the people of Viking Saxon or Norman origin and claim it back. The fact that the Jews have been persecuted in Europe for centuries does not excuse it.
The solution to that is to fight against prejudice and racism and develop societies that provide safety to all their citizens.
However while we have class society those who rule us will always want to use the old tactic of divide and rule to deflect us from asserting our rights against them.
Ultimately under international socialism this issue would solve itself all people everywhere would be seen as human beings.
As yesterday we celebrated Burn's Night I thought this might be appropriate :
Then let us pray that come it may, (As come it will for a' that,) That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth, Shall bear the gree, an' a' that. For a' that, an' a' that, It's coming yet for a' that, That Man to Man, the world o'er, Shall brothers be for a' that.
"On the issue of Islamic scripture, Karen Armstrong’s biography of Mohammed has an interesting angle. If we take as a starting point that there is no God and the revelations are man-made, then it follows they’ll closely reflect the time and place where they originated."
Precisly Vizzo, and you can recreate that statesment for cultural and political movements which reflect the time and place of their origin. Zionism for example, was born in the Shtetls of central and eastern Europe. Yes, it was 'nationalist' but it was precisely that which was to deliver the Jewish people from persecution by Tsar or Emperor.
If the arab countires where Jews had been residing had not started the forced expulsion and pogroms in 1948 then those Jews would not have gone to Israel and there would probably be more Jews in the arab world than in Israel. Israel would be a much more smaller and diverse place and would have had friendly relations with their arab neighbours.
Do run along and read a history book or two. You think the Zionist colonisation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine dates from 1948? Look up the Balfour Declaration. Look up Deir Yassine, which had remained neutral in the war, and see just how friendly those Zionists invaders were to the people of Palestine.
The Zionists set out to steal an Arab country and massacre and deport its population. Any subsequent reprisals against Jews in other Arab countries were very wrong, but they were reprisals.
The 'right to return' idea is clearly discriminatory, and unsustainable if Israel is ever going to be an ordinary, modern, democratic state. As NapK correctly points out, Zionism has its own historical roots and explanations (one of several good points here by NapK - why do people keep snapping at him...?)
But in practical terms getting Israel to backtrack on anything is mind-fuckingly hard, as Obama has found out at the cost of some of his political capital. They are wholly reliant on US support, but they also know full well that no US president will ever leave them to hang, so all the US can do is impotently cajole them.
Another inconvenient issue is the benefits that the US and - the West in general - accrue from having a heavily armed and belligerent ally in that region, and the Israelis leverage that too.
The Western guilt-explosion triggered by the mere mention of anti-Semitism is another complicating factor, and another thing the SOI freely leverage.
But at the same time, the rhetoric coming from Hamas and others like them provide an excuse for the SOI to entrench, and make it more difficult for the US to justify withdrawing their support.
"The 'right to return' idea is clearly discriminatory, and unsustainable if Israel is ever going to be an ordinary, modern, democratic state."
But it doesnt want to be those things, it wants to be a racially defined state with all the lands it *thinks* belongs to it, regardless of the people living there, regardless of international law, the UN, and with a complete disregard for killing the present inhabitants, sometimes with illegal munitions and illegal raids of aid ships on the high seas. Indefensible.
Ok Jay, but they don't exist in a vacuum - I'm not as pessimistic as you are that eventually they'll have to adjust their expectations in order to retain the support they need.
Unrelated point - have you thought about stepping up for that Cif 'men on sexism' panel?
A ludicrous appreciation of history. Please do some reading, then come back.
Itothevizzo,
"I reckon you could make a logical case that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and defend it - but how is that ever going to contribute to a two-state solution?"
The two-state solution looks dead and buried following the recent wave of leaks. I don't know what the solution is; I do know treating Israel as a 'rational' player in this is flawed. Israel exists on the politics of fear (most states do to some extent, granted) and the politics of might. It's so apparent.
"would a Palestinian Arab have any more 'inherent' claim on 'the land' (not an individual patch of land that he owns) than a Jewish person...?"
Well, it depends on the context (force, longevity of claim etc...).
"So Hamas' charter can't be understood purely as a response to oppression, rather it's symptomatic of a wider perception which only feeds Israel's paranoia and brings us further from a solution."
Again, I disagree, because you have the balance all wrong. The fact that Jews lived in fairly good autonomy during the Ottoman Period points to a very specific context of Arab-Jewish relations. And let's face it, the rise of Zionism (and Arab nationalism, for sure) only helped make things worse (Kibbutzism etc...which is effectively colonisation).
"Ok Jay, but they don't exist in a vacuum - I'm not as pessimistic as you are that eventually they'll have to adjust their expectations in order to retain the support they need."
But they only need one supporter when its the hyperpower, and they have it. Thats why they act with total disregard for the law and the rest of the world. US support will not fade, at all. No sign of it whatsoever.
The people's panel is one of the most baffling things I've seen them do yet. I just don't understand it, such a strange reaction to two totally different stories - Raab and Gray, just chuck them all in together, its the same thing isnt it, men being sexist. Lets get a panel going to remind ourselves how beastly they are, and consequently how appalling Raab's comment was - as, lets face it, none of us have even attempted to rebutt his figures.
Get the lattes in and the misery lit out, ladies, this is going to be fun - a love-in of Grauny, upper middle class feminism patting itself on the back.
Baffling. So no, Viz, i won't be offering, and they'd say no if i did - I'm on my 10th day of premod, precious little dears. You? Knowing the Graun they'll take one AllyF type, and 4 LenFirewooods.
Don't know why Jess would suggest such a weird PP.
I'd presumed when they said they were asking for a male view on sexism that they might be enquiring as to whether men feel there are sometimes double standards at play. For example, a woman can have on the wall of her office cubicle a torn-out ad of David Beckham in his tighty whities (I've seen a few) but a man can't have a pic of Lucy Pinder in similar fetching attire in his cubicle. Or why was it a problem that female students were underperforming but it's not that a problem now that male students are? And so on.
But no. I see that The Topical News Hook is the Andy Gray/Sky Sports story, so I think they're looking for men to fess up to talking about the hooters on Sharon from accounts around the water cooler. ..."we want male Comment is free readers to tell us about how they talk about women when there aren't any around. If sexist comments are made, do you challenge them?"
Perhaps a more accurate invitation to proffer an article might be "Men...are you complete bastards or just one of those lily-livered bastards who won't speak out against the complete bastards? Email me now yesweareallcompletebastards@guardian.co.uk
I do know treating Israel as a 'rational' player in this is flawed.
...they act with total disregard for the law and the rest of the world
Not sure about that - excepting their stance on Palestine, Israel ticks the EU boxes of what a healthy democracy looks like, i.e. low systemic corruption, free press, social provision for citizens, free and open elections. Even the Palestine deadlock can be seen in practical terms - if it’s a negotiation to establish regional power, then the Israelis have taken the most uncompromising position possible and then only give ground when they absolutely have to.
I also don’t agree that the US is able to unconditionally support them - they’re already exerting pressure, however impotent, to get the SOI to engage with the process and halt settlements. Israel wouldn’t be able to stage another 1967-style land grab now, so they do act in accordance with the international mood to some extent. They’re just especially belligerent about how they deal with it.
I think it’s crucial for the Palestinians to rally round pragmatic causes themselves, i.e. not Hamas or any Islamist politics, in order to make the SOI position look unreasonable. I know that the radicalism is in large part a response to oppression, but in the same sense that Zionism is a response to historical pogroms - no excuse. And note that this last point is not intended to downplay or mitigate Israel’s actions...
Then you are simply in denial of reality. We have seen the leaks and it is clear that Israel has no interest in peace (because its existence is based on ongoing violence!).
"they’re already exerting pressure"
No, they are not and in light of the leaks it makes even less sense to argue this.
"but in the same sense that Zionism is a response to historical pogroms"
You could also see Zionism as simply part of two broader trends in C19:
- New religion (in response to the 'rational age'), like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists etc...
- Part of internationalism (they ditched that very quickly).
Well didn’t Burns night go down well at Graun Towers. That Shelagh McKinlay article being the tartan cherry on a metropolitan cake.
I don’t mind a bit of piss taking about Burns night or anything to do with Scotland but is that the best they can do, the Scottish Cringe writ large?
Not a single article about Burns politics, his internationalism (as mentioned by Anne above) or his relevance in 21st Century Scotland and why he is taken so seriously.
No siree, we’ve got a real Scottish native cringing all over the celebration and it got a well deserved kicking BTL. Did anyone see it? Here’s just a taster:
“Yes, it's Marti Pellow Night! When citizens of the greatest small non-sovereign nation north of and attached to England join together to take heroin and sing Ilikekickinginthegutter and-a Wishin' Ah Wiz Lucky, while mincin' aboot like they've goat a bad case o' piles.
But jings! Ah'm huvin ye's oan, so ah am! Marti Pellow night's no' till the morra right enuff, eh no? Tonight is of course Burns Night when, just fur a wee change, "supper" consists of oatmeal and the heart and lungs of lamb chopped and nestled in the stomach of a sheep, then boiled for eight hours. I can see youse ur thinkin' "Oh, fur a nice bowl of Special K and a wee Blue Riband!" eh?”
Breathtaking.
Over in the lifestyle section was the usual crap about haggis and just to add insult to injury one of the comments on the ‘comments of the day’ section is all about the things they hate about Scotland.
Can we expect to see the following article over the coming year? – Diwali- crazy candles, crazy hindus!
St Patrick’s Day- fidleediddleeedeedeedeedee! Top o’ the morning to ya, have you got a potato?
Ramadan- OMG, all that curry, imagine what their toilets must be like the following morning?
Just parking this comment from the new Penny Dreadful thread:
Moderator, why is it not permitted to make allusions to the chutzpah involved in writing an article about others' unreasonableness on issues of pay and gender when the author has been caught trying to breach pay and employment laws?
In another shocking development, Tony Blair appears to be not quite getting the lurve in his role as Middle East Peace Envoy:
Tony Blair criticised for 'Israeli bias' Leaked papers show Palestinians feel quartet envoy is paternalistic and that the Israelis don't take him too seriously
From the article about the 11 year-old charged with homicide in Pennsylvania:
That leads to only two conclusions: either kids in the US are far more violent than those in the rest of the world, or the US has developed uniquely harsh sentences.
No reason for that to be an either/or sentence, really. :-/
Although I disagree vehemently with the notion that this kid (or any other 11 yr old) should be locked away for life without the possibility of parole, I also disagree with the father's assertion that a kid that age doesn't understand the concept of 'the rest of your life' as if that somehow mitigates what the kid did. Joe's 11. He understands right from wrong and he sure as hell knows that it's wrong to shoot someone in the back of the head while they sleep.
As for smtx01's comment --
So not only does the slightest bit of criticism of Israel earn one the epithet of being "revisionist antisemitic fukers" (sic), now making a sarcastic comment about CifWatch is proof of one's antisemitism??? Well, as a woman, I can only respond that smtx01 is obviously a sexist pig.
This notion that the clowns at CifWatch have that any criticism of Israel equates to anti-Semitism is just hilarious. That means that many (if not most) American Jews are anti-Semitic. Certainly every one that I've ever known would be.
And my dictionary (Oxford Concise) defines Semite as:
a member of any of the peoples supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. 10:21 ff.), includeing esp. the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians, and Phoenicians.
Damn straight. I hear those Assyrians were real badass motherfuckers. So glad they're all dead now.
There is one upside to smtx01's comment still being up -- Habib & I had a little bet last night. He thought it would be gone before 11 am. I said it wouldn't be deleted. I get to gloat all over his overly-trusting ass now.
The leaks didn’t show that Israel don’t want peace - just that they aren’t prepared to concede anything at all to get there. That’s pretty much in keeping with their public behaviour on the matter, so the leaks didn’t really illuminate on that front.
And I still don’t think that this proves the SOI isn’t a ‘rational’ player, although maybe a more ruthless one than it previously seemed. Perhaps they’re not conceding because they have judged that they don’t need to. That’s apparently acknowledged by the PA, as shown by the huge concessions their negotiators offered the Israelis (the leaks do illuminate on that front).
Maybe Israel have calculated that eventually the PA will agree to establishing a reduced, de-militarized and generally subjugated Palestinian semi-state, which Israel will magnanimously allow to exist...?
I don’t really know, but I am more interested in a pragmatic explanation rather than a fanatical one - as I said earlier, in most other respects Israel is a rational place, and they wouldn’t be the first state to pursue a self-interested agenda ruthlessly.
Also I wonder what the effect of the leaks will be on the situation over there. The ‘demeaning’ PA offers will presumably alienate a lot of their support, but it’ll be a huge step back for their own cause if those people drift towards the Islamist doomsday nonsense peddled by Hamas.
Is it perpetual war in the sense we usually understand war - 2 (or more) armed forces fighting in the field of battle or bombing each other to destruction. Can you have a war when one side is unarmed ?
You can have a powerful nation using their military supremacy to maintain an unequal and cruel status quo - to their own continuing benefit.
Well, the military-industrial complex for one. The US for another as they have a handy base in the ME wot sits on top of all their oil.
And the Israeli politicians who get elected on the back of their bellicosity - never underestimate the importance of cupidity. (This last goes for the other side as well, of course.)
Well, believe whatever you want to. It is apparent that the Palestinian Authority was offering them well beyond anything anyone had imagined and still they rejected it.
All you are saying is that they want everything and that that is rational. And that Israel, apart from the minor issue of disenfranchising people, is a lovely democracy. Fine.
I find debaters like you almost more frustrating than people like NapKaramazov. You cloak yourself in some kind of 'common sense' language and it takes me a day to find out that it's all just a debating club for you.
It's now come to the point that you deny the papers show what they do. What's the point of continuing this debate?
I've always seen her leap to Israel's defence if ever there's the slightest criticism. Perhaps the rages are linked to that, or have you seen them happen with no mention of Israel?
Jesus christ, Penny is (predictably) disgracing herself BTL.
Why not rename feminism? Well, first, because I'm not in charge of it. Second, because feminism's main priority is not to appear gentle and unconfrontational and pleasing to men. Its main priority is to liberate us all from gender oppression, and that starts with women. It's not our responsibility to make you feel comfortable- it's your responsibility to get involved because it's the right thing to do. If men are put off by a movement because it sounds a bit girly - like sick toddlers refusing to take a medicine because it's bright pink- isn't it a reflection on them, not on feminism?
As for the one or two so-called feminists who truly are 'unreasonable man-bashers': they do not represent feminism. They are not 'feminist bigots', they're just bigots when they express those views.
So men - and anyone else - put off by feminism as it stands today are 'sick toddlers'?
As a feminist, I too object to 'girly' shit! Am I a sick toddler? (Er - don't answer that.)
I don't know what the answer is either Vizzo - It does seem strange to me that successive Israeli govs only seem to do things that inflame rather than appease Arab opinion. You'd think that surrounded as they are that might be unwise. But then they are really just the US by proxy and seem to suffer from the same belligerence regarding getting what they want.
It will not end well - I don't know whether its just me but I get the feeling that terrible things might be brewing for the middle east.
My ex old man says its quiet in his part of the Sinai though and his adopted cat has just had four kittens....
As I implied earlier, I wouldn't like to be an Israeli Jew when the USA folds as a superpower. Sadly, it's not just the Netanyahus and Liebermans who'll suffer.
Also [WARNING: rant ahead], is it just me or is Dribbly getting more vacuous by the day? I still read it because sometimes in the evenings there are some interesting discussions (RedMiner, Leni, Arec, etc.) but during the day it's fucking excruciating.
Today: lame cock jokes, shoes and handbags. Oh, and bad dates. (Has anyone here ever had a bad date? Do these people have no discrimination on who they decide to go out with?)
A lot of it's supposed to be vacuous and is quite amusing IMO (I like one-liners). But then I would say that since I take part. :-) If they ever suppply the inconsequential chat thread they keep promising, you'll be able to avoid the banter.
But I'm still bloody annoyed that all my carefully reasonable posts in answer to smtx's hate rant were deleted today, presumably due to the Hasbara thought police hitting the abuse button.
Brain dead again. Was prosecuting a DV court today, which is always utterly draining. Got 4 guilty pleas, though, and only one victim "but we love each other" no-show, so not all bad, even if I feel like I have done three rounds with Mike Tyson myself now.
No school for me tomorrow, so hopefully I will be able to catch up with everyone/everything good and proper.
I don't actually like talking about people in their absence but smtx has expressed very reasonable views on Israel - she does get angry with what she sees as AS and is very defensive about Jews from Muslim countries being expelled.
This is not a debate I get into as the movement of Jews from several areas was in fact from choice - although there is no doubt that some fled for their lives - or at least in fear of their lives.
Leni "Is it perpetual war in the sense we usually understand war - 2 (or more) armed forces fighting in the field of battle or bombing each other to destruction. Can you have a war when one side is unarmed ? "
Well no, it is not a conventional war like that. Hamas have stated that they are prepared to use womens wombs as a weapon, ie to outbreed the Israelis. I believe the term is 'demographic bomb'. This is the reason why 50% of people in Gaza are under 16. To be fair, the Israelis do echo this 'baby as a weapon' sentiment as well, particularly the Orthodox.
Spike - I have no objection to a bit of banter, it just seems to be getting lower and lower in quality! Maybe I am just getting crankier in my old age.
I didn't see your posts before they were deleted, but I expect it was some very unreasonable censorship.
"Well, the military-industrial complex for one. The US for another as they have a handy base in the ME wot sits on top of all their oil."
This is an erroneous statement Thauma. Most of the mideast oil is located in Saudi Arabia and all the other Gulf Sheikdoms (rich as fuck but never offering more than a fig leaf to the Palestinians). Israel is pretty bone dry. And there are no American military bases in Israel apart from a few air defence sites- their bases are all in the Saudi and the gulf states. America probably gets a lot of stick from their arab 'allies' for having diplomatic relations with Israel at all, but it is only their buying power that keeps the arabs appeased. Not that I am seeking to defend the US status quo, just pointing it out as it is.
I've got no truck for the AIPAC, Israel lobby etc in America. What I would hope for is that Arab recognition of Israel would end Israel's rationale to rely on the US.
there are also several thousand Gazan adults in Israeli prisons.
you are making the mistake of assuming that the views of extremists are the views of the majority.
what about the @Kins's Torah@ published by right wing rabbi which claimed it was fine to kill anyone who may be an enemy of the Jewish people in the future as justification for killing P children and babies or G Alderman's thesis on the Rodef.
Do you thinj they represent the majority of the Jewish people.
Hamas are extremists, Hamas are the majority Leni, at least in Gaza. There are Isreali Jewish extremists as well, no doubt.
Anyway, this debate is a long one, and...well I don't think we should talk about is so much. All these hundred plus posts come because of my assertion that Israel is a sovereign country and a member of the United Nations, surely the other sovereign members of the United Nations are bound as members of that organisation to merely accept the existence of their fellow members. As I said, even when there are disputes, say us and Argentina over the Falklands, we both recognise each other's sovereign right to exist.
Again, who questions the right of Finland or Tuvalu to exist. Who questions Finland's immigration poliicies, which make it easy for their fellow Nordics and EU citizens to come in, but to the east, they are, for obvious reasons, very selective about how many Russians can come in. Does that make Finland a racist state?
"There is one upside to smtx01's comment still being up -- Habib & I had a little bet last night. He thought it would be gone before 11 am. I said it wouldn't be deleted. I get to gloat all over his overly-trusting ass now."
Gloat away, Montana - I was wrong and have lost the last vestige of belief that CiF was a decent place to be.
Charles, if you look deeper, you'll find that Hamas are extremists for a reason. That doesn't mean I support them, though. It's up to you, but you might want to consider the situation in a way that isn't clouded by the idea "Israel - good, Arabs - bad"
All you are saying is that they want everything and that that is rational.
I think you could attempt a rational explanation for their actions, yes. That doesn't make them justified or morally right. Since we seemed to be in agreement on that, there didn't seem to be much point in posting repeated confirmations of it. But since you seem to require it, yes, Israel's position is indeed indefensible.
You cloak yourself in some kind of 'common sense' language and it takes me a day to find out that it's all just a debating club for you
I'll admit I'm a bit puzzled by this. What did you expect to find out? That you're taking part in a UN assembly?
If they ever suppply the inconsequential chat thread they keep promising, you'll be able to avoid the banter.
Personally I couldn't care less that the thread is used for both suggestions and chatting shit. But what I don't get is the ongoing assurances that the separate thread is 'on its way' - surely if they're going to do it, it should take someone about 3 minutes at most? And if they're not doing it, why not just say so?
"I can't make sense of the theory that they want perpetual war. Why would they? Who benefits?"
Of course they don't want 'perpetual war'..... although the $billions they get from the US comes in very handy for one thing or another, like building Apartheid Walls and being armed to the teeth with the most sophisticated military hardware and weaponry you can imagine.
The SOI just want the world to 'go away' so they can get on with the matter in hand and accomplish their obsessive mission of eradicating Palestine and her people's rights and history in whatsoever manner they choose. FOREVER.
The trouble is that in this debate, the inevitable idea that all Israeli's are Arab-hating, murderous bastards can often seem like the implication and this is just not true.
You may want to check out this link to a film by an Israeli Film-maker about Operation Cast Lead... shown on C4 News this evening ...told from the Soldiers perspective....very well worth a watch...
@I to the Vizzo:"Personally I couldn't care less that the thread is used for both suggestions and chatting shit. But what I don't get is the ongoing assurances that the separate thread is 'on its way' - surely if they're going to do it, it should take someone about 3 minutes at most? And if they're not doing it, why not just say so?"
Yeah, I was wondering about that. The only conclusion I could come to was that they don't really want a separate "chat and banter" thread since that would leave them brutally exposed on "Wadya" to deal with what people actually want to talk about.
Heheh. I didn't hold out for long. I changed channels when they started interviewing the two Eton old boys waiting to go up to Oxford.
F00k that for a lark. I am watching True Lies on TCM. Very silly, funny film, loosely based on the french film La Totale. Some great gags and set pieces.
I am very interested in water issues - particularly in water mining.
Big problems in some US states where extraction rates are not controlled - so aquivers not refilling (fossil water) are running dry causing severe anxieties for future water supplies.
Came across interesting snippet about New Mexico. They have apparently some old Spanish laws still on statute books. One declares that all water belongs to the king - currently interpreted as belonging to the people. This allows the state to control extraction rates as all are deemed to have access to available water - not for free of course.
Are there any moves to standardise water laws ? If not I can see huge areas becoming increasingly arid very quickly.
Hello Leni: no doubt you are familiar with them but for anyone who isn't, "Jean De Floret" and "Manon Des Source" are two classic French movies which tackle the problem of water distribution and more importantly, who owns it.
Blah blah blah. In the comfortable world of growing up in Britain, they are extremists. In the reality of being treated like dogshit, having members of your family executed for no reason, being subjected to racial profiling which means more than 'stop and search', living without citizenship, without the basic rights of access to basics, of being labelled an extremist from birth just for being born in a strip of land that some fucking bible stories tell others is rightfully theirs while you and your family deserve to be smitten, in those circumstances Hamas are simply an answer.
You start your imbecilic history in 2006 whereas perceptive commentators are at the very least aware of a pre-history of violence and discrimination that reaches back even further than 1948.
@Itothevizzo
"I'll admit I'm a bit puzzled by this. What did you expect to find out? That you're taking part in a UN assembly?"
Sorry, I mistook you for someone (initially at least) who was interested in more than discourse, but actually about the subject matter. It seems I was wrong. Table any topic and Itothevizzo will play Devil's Advocate. Grow up.
Not a lot to disagree with about the programme on the "Posh political elite" prognosis on BBC2.
Sad fact is that the Labour elite now just about own some of the safest seats in Yorkshire.....Ed Milli, Balls and wife were all parachuted into ex mining seats......etc
'twas Michael Foot who gave us Blair..........I'm getting sicker and sicker as I think about where it all started going wrong
"George Soros tells David Cameron: change direction or face recession. Mix of tax increases and spending cuts unsustainable, speculator says, as World Economic Forum gets under way"
I mistook you for someone (initially at least) who was interested in more than discourse, but actually about the subject matter. It seems I was wrong. Table any topic and Itothevizzo will play Devil's Advocate.
Well, discourse about the subject matter.
But ok, the devil's advocate thing does have some truth to it - in my defence, I reckon threads benefit from having a contrary voice. If we're all agreeing, then what's the point?
Spike Saw the Neil thing, nothing we didn't already know "here"; but why the fuck the BBC have been bigging this up on their website all day as some kind of expose says a couple of things;
1 how fucked our political compass is, and 2, potentially at least, how fucking craven the BBC News organisation is...
BTW - if you did watch it, the Stoke thing has been a source of fascination for several months. Can't get to the bottom of it at all, and I've had at least a couple exchanges with local Labourites there who tell stories that add and unnerving complexity... can anyone enlighten me here ?
@olching - stop it with the melodrama. child rape, ffs. If you're such a fragile ego then next time work out what you're trying to say before posting it.
I find it really hard to understand how people cannot see that movements such as Hamas don't occur in a vacuum. Worse, I find it really hard to understand why people automatically revert - I am thinking of the Brackenator as an example - to accusations that, just because someone can understand the causation that leads to an organisation like Hamas developing, that makes us some kind of apologist for it.
Agree entirely. The US administration is squirming beyond anything at the moment now that their stooges are being found out. It would be even more interesting if there were a new generational shift in Israel, which would oust the neo-conservative consensus there. Sadly, those Israelis inclined that way leave.
BB,
Ditto, agreed. We all have an annoying cousin who used to provoke other cousins incessantly until one of them hit him only for him to turn around and play the victim wolf at having been hit. This is the kind of 'Hamas is evil' argument: no historical context, no interest in understanding cause and causation.
Itothevizzo,
*You* get a grip. If you're arguing for argument's sake, choose a more appropriate topic rather than the dehumanisation of Palestinians and Bedouin (oh what a frightfully good pro-and-con argument!).
I don't know, perhaps defend Andy Gray or something.
Ack don't worry Vizzo. To be fair I think a lot of people made a lot of valid points, and yes Olching I understand the shit situation in Gaza. Saw the channel 4 news report larit, and while of course it is shocking, at least those individual soldiers realised the moral wrong they had done and spoke out.
Anyway, browsing of the interwebs found this site, 'Graun watch' run by someone called 'Quiet riot girl' (is she on cif).
I think you'd be very interested in the irrigation setup down where I stay with friends in the summer, to the south of Granada. It's the same as in North Africa, with a water committee deciding on allocations, deciding at what time which people can open their sluice gates and water their terraces.
When someone has made a special contribution to the community, they can be allocated extra water rights.
La rit, and Olching as well The whole converstion could be avoided. I've only got one statement to make; Recognition of the sovereign right of Israel to exist by the surrounding countries is a necessary in any peace process. This is not a debating society, but do you agree or disagree?
My point is that, whatever Israel do, Hamas are not 'the answer'. You can't counter extremism with even more outlandish extremism - and I'm not saying it to score points, I genuinely think that the leaks are likely to boost Hamas, which will inflame things further and ratchet up the human cost.
Are there any moves to standardise water laws ? If not I can see huge areas becoming increasingly arid very quickly.
No, Leni. And there would probably be quite an outcry if there were. Many Americans are very big on local control of such matters and what's best for the environment rarely has anything to do with the decisions. I'll never understand the hows & whys, but I know that there are times when states that draw water/power from the Colorado River get into major disputes. As I recall, California somehow has rights to a certain amount of it & that states upriver are often suffering so that southern Californians have enough water for their swimming pools and green lawns.
A lot of agriculture in the western US is highly dependent on irrigation, as well. Cheap lettuce is very important, you know. If that means that aquifers are depleted for future generations, oh well.
"The whole converstion could be avoided. I've only got one statement to make; Recognition of the sovereign right of Israel to exist by the surrounding countries is a necessary in any peace process. This is not a debating society, but do you agree or disagree?"
It's entirely irrelevant, or rather only relevant to neo-cons who wish to skew the real issues that dog the Middle East.
Very interesting - looks as though that is , at least in part, the system operating in New Mexico.
there are ancient systems - apparently introduced from Iran - being reconstructed in Syria which also has severe water shortages.
Montana
I understand that the High Plains have massive problems with aquiver extraction - which started there in the 1930s. this problem - across the world - really needs cross border solutions and in US obviously interstate agreements which are fair to everyone.
Leni I was curious how the Stoke thing would be approached; all we got was that it was a "stunning revelation".
It was tabloid telly for Broadsheet readers really.
My point being... maybe that's what it takes to at least prick the consciounces of those dickheads driving along tomorrow listening to Radio 5 phone ins and solemnly agreeing that the cuts are part of a Law of Nature...
Or maybe it's just the BBC simultaneously ticking the box that says "disenfranchised poor" and the one that says "Andrew Neill is the way forward for unchallenging and vastly overhyped mainstream political commentary which suits our taloid needs".
Kids, planes, runway strikes Flashy pimps and family fights Spotted dogs, blood-shot eyes Our space captain laughs and tries To understand the scheme of things But just in time the scene has changed The bus is here, bring the beer Sherman's reading Shakespeare Movie makers, boobie shakers And Sexy airplane ticket takers Union members Leo Fender's pride and joy Electric toy Teachers, learners Incense burners Religious leaders and chronic bleeders Thieves and pirates on a ride It's a hippie commune bonafied But Okies and Limeys, curtain climbers Stones and future Dominoes Know which way the wind blows Stolen cola no one knows The shadow do But it's still a shady crew 'Cause I love her, and she loves you Just myself and forty friends In the name of Cocker power Out here on the road again With Mad Dogs and Englishmen
Oh Bullshit Olching, it's to do with being a step forward towards dialogue and reconcilliation. Sod the neocons. Anyway I've pissed enough people off, I can only apologise. I will take a leave of absence from here becuase I've been hogging the thread too much and it's not fair on other posters.
Morning Bitterweed and any other night people who're about
PeoplesPanel for men to talk about how they discuss women in all male environments? FFS! Talk about setting men up for a fall!I think i'm gonna burn a pair of boxers in protest and send the ashes to MsReed by courier.
I thought I'd go ahead and give you the thread I meant to do yesterday.
ReplyDeleteHi Montana! Hope Joe is feeling better!
ReplyDeleteOlching re PTSD and I/P. Its not an excuse but it could help understanding I think, on this level I think its complicated because how do you put a country into therapy>
Its obvious that the state of Israel is in massive denial and, as with all bullies, they can only justify their behaviour to themselves by demonising the Palestinians. Their exageration of the effects of the rockets launched from Gaza when Gaza has been bombed into the stone age is evidence for this. Its not rational but tbh if the first casualty of war is
truth the second must be rationality.
In the final analysis though the reason for the interminable nature of the problem is the Support of the SOI by the US. Without that the problem would have been solved by now - one way or another.
Just this article
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/25/us-boy-accused-murder-appeals
I just don't understand the USA! 11 year olds should not have unsupervised access to guns FFS!
Morning All.
ReplyDeleteHope young Master Wildhack is on the mend.
ConDem Regime to Bring Back Slavery
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/8276063/Ministers-plans-to-rescue-lost-generation-of-young-jobless.html
It never really went away, of course, but was just exported to lands far, far away, where Johnny Foreigners wear strange clothes and speak funny.
Now it's finally coming back home.
..............
Ministers plans to rescue 'lost generation' of young jobless
Young unemployed people are to be offered guarantees of work experience in private companies amid fears that lengthening dole queues could create a "lost generation".
The new scheme will be targeted initially at young people most at risk of joining the ranks of the long-term jobless and living in areas of high unemployment.
Those offered work would be unpaid and would still have to rely on their benefit payments.
A coalition source said: "This is an absolutely key part of our move to get growth up the agenda by focusing much more on the needs of business." [...]
It is understood ministers may, in particular, target the construction sector in their efforts to get youngsters off the dole.
Building firms have, in recent years, given short-term jobs to immigrant workers, mainly from Eastern Europe – a source of labour which has begun to dry up amid harsher economic times in Britain.
...............
So, apparently, we are all Americans now if we are rich and successful - and all Polish immigrants if we need to work for no pay to restore wealth and wellbeing to Broekn Britain.
We are all in this together.
Some of us floating in the lovely heavens of blue sky thinking and the rest stuck in the sewage and slurry at the bottom of the heap.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply sell the unemployed to big business?
Atos and A4E seem to be missing a trick here.
Just to highlight this for the scanners amongst us:
ReplyDelete"This is an absolutely key part of our move to get growth up the agenda by focusing much more on the needs of business."
The ConDems are giving away the state welfare provision and the charity sector to businesses who want to make a fast buck.
Now, in order to hyper-fellate business, the need to pay staff has been removed.
The taxpayers will do that for you, Your Sirships.
Atomboy:
ReplyDeleteBloody hell - is that what the Tories call 'growth'? Slave Labour?
Jesus Christ - the presumption is that they'll be so desperate they'll do anything and if they refuse, their benefit will be cut. Once again young people are the whipping boys and girls for Tory ideology.
Disgraceful.
Re NazKaramazov's point about SOI.
ReplyDeleteThis is the ridiculous right-wing notion that all debate should be framed around the meaningless question of Israel's 'right to exist'. It's a fact, it's there. No one needs to premise it with a meaningless phrase.
And of course bear in mind that countries are just constructs and in the case of Israel (less so in Finland's case), it is apparent that it was violently constructed. There is nothing innate about Israel unless you believe in the divine providence of Jews, which I don't.
There is no reason for there to be a Jewish state in the ME, and yes of course it would make more sense for it to be in east-central Europe since most of their cultural reference points existed there. Since WWII marked a major rupture for the communities, the existing land-grabbing that was occurring with the acceptance of Britain was framed as somehow legitimate because of the Holocaust, but that is nonsense of course.
Put this way, Charles, if Glasgow or the Outer Hebrides (I think you're from one or the other, or both) had been designated as the new Israel (why not, after all there was/is a Jewish community in Glasgow) and you and your family would therefore be living in the refugee status and being treated as barely human, I take it you'd be telling us how that is perfectly reasonable, as some of the citizens of this arbitrarily constructed state suffered in an event 70 years ago. Or probably not...and that's the position vis-a-vis Palestinians and the Bedouin.
It's obvious that you either don't have a clue or are simply right-wing (or both). There are not two equal sides to the story. One is based on the explicit disenfranchisement of Palestinians.
As I say, there is nothing innate about 'Jewish' land in the ME - and by the way the indigenous Jews have been treated appallingly by the SOI. Unless you literally believe in Bible Stories, namely that the Jews of east-central Europe and of Russia and of the US are direct descendants of David (and even then that this means there is some kind of right to return - in the same way that, say, the English could demand a return to the Baltic Sea area, coz that's 'where they are from', though the link is absurd and the logic even more so), Israel simply looks like a state created on western-sanctioned violence.
Of course, Charles, you won't address any of these points, but rather fall back on those trite points about Holocaust memory and meaningless phrases of 'right to exist'.
Annetan, I have really stopped buying the post-traumatic stress syndrome argument. It's nonsense. It makes no sense 70 years on for members of a state to be living with the notion of the Holocaust. Leaving aside the fact that not all Israelis can tell a direct history of the Holocaust, it is also the case that the Holocaust simply isn't an Israeli memory trope anyway. It's become a global memory cudgel with which we can justify anything. A quicker emptying out of meaning has rarely occurred vis-a-vis historical events.
But I suppose your argument is far more subtle than that, namely that the Holocaust has functioned as thus, precisely because Israelis have begun to believe their own myth.
Morning Montana
ReplyDelete"Islam really isn't any scarier than any other religion, on its own. I'll grant that the way it is interpreted and practised is often pretty dire, but that's not the fault of the religion itself."
In terms of the scripture its no more repellent than the Old Testament, granted, but like any ideology if the "bad apples" seem to exert a large enough influence, then it cannot be wished away, they're not really X, Y, Z, they've got it wrong, the *real* ideology is sweetness and light save for their corruption of its purity... and this applies to just about every ideology going (political and religious).
Most of these corruptions are fairly specific to their ideology, so the seeds of them, however misguided, seem to lay within those beliefs and doctrines. Instead of addressing these and reforming them, zealots of all types insist the scripture is right (or whichever texts are "sacred" to the belief in question, even secular systems), and the wrongdoers have simply not understood it.
The West has propped up all sorts of odious regimes in the ME, frequently hardline Islamists, like Saudi, against reformist, secularist opposition. But thats an argument against the religion, not in its favour. Take Iran, the hardliners won, not the secularists (in any meaningful way), spurred on by resentment against Western control.
Lots of religious faults are absolutely the fault of the religion. Take the Xtian fundies, their supporting quotes come from the Bible. I dont know why we still keep up the myth that religions are essentially benign - they aren't. "Good" believers are those who reject vast swathes of their scripture.
If religions are the texts, old testament and Koran are pretty odious. If religions are a mixture of text and application, well, doesnt improve the picture much.
Quotes to follow:
"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."
ReplyDeleteQuran 8:12,
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage."
Quran 2:190-2:191
"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."
Quran 9:5;
"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.
Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: "Taste the torment of the Conflagration!"
Quran 22:19-20,"
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
@Olching and Anne:
ReplyDeleteReally excellent posts re: SOI. I saw Nap's comments yesterday and I saw red. Was too wound up with other things to comment further than I did and glad you both had the energy to counter such right-wing mischief-and-myth-making.
@Montana
Thanks for the belated Rab ;) Hope Joe is on the mend?
@Sheff - really sorry to hear the sad news of your family friend. :(
Been embroiled in (unsuccessfully) trying to get a small loan from the Credit Union I've belonged to for nigh on 12 years.
As it has grown and become evermore successful, it has started to behave like a high street bank, but without any of the professionalism.
If fucked up my weekend (a decision was promised by Friday which failed to materialise) and I see it now as synonymous with the warped ethics of Nu Labour.
What started as a community-spirited enterprise to help the poor and vulnerable, has become high-jacked by middle-class busy-bodies empowering (and enriching)themselves in the name of mutual-ownership in the midst of an impoverished community they purport to help. Fucking fuckers.
I've been so angry and disappointed about it - particularly as they have been holding me to ransom with excuse that Mr La Rit has an outstanding debt (in his own separate account) - completely unethical.
@Jay
ReplyDeleteChristians will say, "Ah, but that's the OT."
So here's Jesus:
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
Luke 12:47-48
Of course, the translation is toned down. The original clearly says "slave", rather than "servant". So Jesus not only approves of slavery, but reckons a slave who innocently gets it wrong should still be whipped, just not so hard.
Christians will say, "Ah, but that's the OT."
ReplyDeleteDribblies will say, "Ah, but that's the UT."
Skipers will say, "Ah, but that's the BT."
Skipers will say, "Ah, but that's the BT."
Pink Elephants will say, "Ah, but that's the DT."
Steven Spielberg will say, "Ah, but that's the ET."
Sun readers will say, "Ah, but that's the FT."
Saloon drivers will say, "Ah, but that's the GT."
Fucking hell, what am I doing?
@olching
ReplyDeleteThis is the ridiculous right-wing notion that all debate should be framed around the meaningless question of Israel's 'right to exist'.
Here’s the position on Israel’s right to exist taken by Egyptian MB founder Hassan al-Banna:
“Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
And this is quoted in the preface to Hamas’s charter. So when a political party on this sort of platform comes in with a landslide in Palestine, as they did in 2006, then Israel’s right to exist is clearly far from a ‘meaningless’ question. The way I read NapK’s original point is that, if a two state solution is ever to be reached, Hamas and all other political and religious voices across the ME that currently question or cast doubt on Israel’s right to exist will need to cease and desist.
It’s a completely non-controversial point - Israel deliberately use the ‘siege’ narrative to justify their actions, and rhetoric like the above gives them the pretence. And when Ahmadinejad weighs in, Israel have real cause for concern since he has somewhat more muscle than the average Palestinian Imam.
I don’t think anyone’s claiming that Israel is justified in everything they do because their right to exist is questioned, or that all debate needs to pivot on this point. But rather that both sides will need to simmer down before any sort of resolution can happen.
I agree with you that nations are constructs and there’s nothing inherent about Israel that means it belongs to the Jews, but you could follow the same logic and say there’s nothing inherent about the Palestinians’ and Bedouins’ claim on the land either.
"A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)"
ReplyDeleteDoes this include Michael Fish ?
Atomboy
ReplyDeleteYou were on a roll there buddy... sounded like a chain gang song.
Morning all, at home sick with some dizziness problem so can't drive.
ReplyDeleteJust saw this guy Lord Carlile saying the control orders were absolutely necessary and each and every person so help was a suspect etc etc. Funny, there was an item shortly before about a Muslim convert who was held because his brother or someone he knew anyway, was a suspect (also on a control order I guess). Anyway, the interviewers never question it! Just take it as a given when here was evidence of not 100% of every case.
He was quite confident that the people held were dangerous.
Oh yes and how many are actually successfully charged, face trail and sentenced? A very small percentage, like the poison plot with nician (or somesuch).
ReplyDelete"Oh yes and how many are actually successfully charged, face trail and sentenced? A very small percentage, like the poison plot with nician (or somesuch)."
ReplyDeleteIs this @me?
Hi Jay, can you explain the 'Is this @me? '.
ReplyDeleteThanks
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIan - was just asking where the comment was directed as sounded like a response.
ReplyDelete@Itothevizzo
ReplyDeleteWhy does Hamas exist? Because Palestinians just simply love to hate Jews? No, but because of the systematic erosion of franchise and rights of Palestinians by the state of Israel.
Like Spike, but perhaps slightly differently, I would say that no state has the 'right to exist' (they are after all constructs) but rather has to continuously legitimise and argue and prove this 'right'.
Did Nazi Germany have the right to exist? No, of course not. Does the EU have a right to exist?
"But rather that both sides will need to simmer down before any sort of resolution can happen."
This is relativism at its worst. Oh, both sides are equally to blame, both sides are equal in everything. Bollocks. The radical movements among Palestinians et al are solely down to Israel's racist policies.
It's Israel, as is now even more apparent, that has the onus to prove its 'right to exist' (i.e. its humanity).
"Interesting how the brief for the Bank of Eng - (to keep inflation under control) has been redefined/expanded into general oversight/control of the nations economic well being."
ReplyDeleteIndeed - was always pure dogmatic idiocy that monetary policy should respond only to inflation, so now a key plank of economic policy is taken away from democratic control. King has had enormous influence on the post-crash response.
fuck - I've accidently deleted my post
ReplyDeletegotta dash so no time to repost - seems likely that Jay and I are in agreement
Am well PCC and away to look at a new dog. Hope your well too.
Hi Jay, the comment was not directed to anyone in particular, just an off-the-cuff thought that ran through my brain at that point in relation to my previous post about control orders.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Good to see you back, and on form, Olching
ReplyDeleteAh, makes sense now.
ReplyDelete@Itothevizzo
ReplyDelete"I agree with you that nations are constructs and there’s nothing inherent about Israel that means it belongs to the Jews, but you could follow the same logic and say there’s nothing inherent about the Palestinians’ and Bedouins’ claim on the land either."
This is very confused.
On one hand, we are talking about a state (Israel). This is different to the rights of groups or individuals.
But then secondly, there is the question of immediacy. If one group (or institution) takes away the land of another and this is not done in any 'mutual' way (such as the retrospective acceptance, for different reasons, of German Lands becoming Polish etc), then the rights of the takers is not the same of that of the disenfranchised.
You are not comparing like with like, yet you are pretending that you are.
Thanks Deano.
ReplyDeleteSpike & olching
ReplyDeleteI reckon you could make a logical case that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and defend it - but how is that ever going to contribute to a two-state solution?
I am not claiming that both sides are 'equally' to blame, or even that in retrospect the formation of Israel was a wise move. But it seems to me that any peace process going forward will have to take Israel's 'right to exist' as a non-negotiable starting point, if it's ever going to go anywhere. The notion that they should be expected to perpetually justify their right to exist is totally absurd.
Palestinian radicalism may largely be a direct response to Israeli policy, but it draws on a rich seam of Islamic and Arab anti-Semitism which pre-dates Israel by a margin. So Hamas' charter can't be understood purely as a response to oppression, rather it's symptomatic of a wider perception which only feeds Israel's paranoia and brings us further from a solution.
On the issue of Islamic scripture, Karen Armstrong’s biography of Mohammed has an interesting angle. If we take as a starting point that there is no God and the revelations are man-made, then it follows they’ll closely reflect the time and place where they originated.
ReplyDelete7th Century Medina was an oasis divided up into heavily fortified settlements divided by religion - some Jewish ones and some Arab ‘pagan’ ones. The culture was heavily based around raiding and stealing from other settlements, and for the Arabs, vendetta killings. Mohammed and his few hundred followers came from Mecca into this scene without any connections to the existing tribes, and were facing death by starvation - the only way was to raid and kill convoys from the other settlements, and fight pitched battles often to avoid getting slaughtered en masse.
But the problem was that Mohammed’s revelations to date had been peaceful ones, emphasising respect for life, so his followers found it difficult to square that with the new necessity to raid and kill. Armstrong posits that it’s at this point Mohammed started hearing revelations which justified and encouraged war on infidels and Jews - because the resources in Medina were controlled by these groups, and being peaceful and merciful would have meant certain death for all those who followed him from Mecca.
Armstrong’s thesis is - broadly - that the original, peaceful message is the ‘true’ Islam, and the rest is the delivery mechanism, because without the warlike parts, Mohammed’s fledgling movement would have been strangled at birth.
The problem is that the revelations are not presented as fallible or temporal, so in the present day it’s hard for a tiny minority of hard-line believers to disregard the calls to Jihad.
But then secondly, there is the question of immediacy. If one group (or institution) takes away the land of another and this is not done in any 'mutual' way
ReplyDeleteAgree with that, and I'm not defending the ongoing settlements. I was talking more in broad strokes, i.e. would a Palestinian Arab have any more 'inherent' claim on 'the land' (not an individual patch of land that he owns) than a Jewish person...?
@ItotheV:
ReplyDeleteI reckon you could make a logical case that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and defend it - but how is that ever going to contribute to a two-state solution?
But it is the insistence above all else of the State of Israel being specifically a 'Jewish' state, which causes all the problems.
As I've argued many a time on threads on CiF....it's the exclusivity that that implies.... a State only for Jews, which is the problem and therefore it can only exist as a racist entity if defined in purely 'racial/ethnic' terms.
and religious terms....
ReplyDeleteAtomboy:
I thought you were on a roll too!! ;-)
Deano:
Good luck with the new pooch - my sister and her fella have a new rescue collie-whippet-lurcher... he's gorgeous!!! (and so too Miss Heidi)
@Ivo
ReplyDeleteBut it seems to me that any peace process going forward will have to take Israel's 'right to exist' as a non-negotiable starting point, if it's ever going to go anywhere.
Right to exist as what?
I heard the same argument so many times in relation to South Africa. "Oh, the Whites are never going to agree to Black majority rule, so you have to accept that and be pragmatic."
No, there are some things I'll never accept and institutionalised racism is one of them.
In fact, I think what will quite possibly happen is that Israel will continue with its crimes until the US loses its superpower status and there's payback and another diaspora.
Depressing and tragic, but at long as Israel remains a rogue, criminal state practising "Jewish" supremacism, it's going to keep on storing up hate for itself.
I put "Jewish" in inverted commas because no-one, especially the supporters of Israel, has ever managed to explain to me what "Jewish" identity is. For the purposes of its law of return, Israel adopts a basically Nazi definition: you're Jewish if one of your grandparents was. Apart from the strange and to me very distasteful idea of defining yourself according to the perception of the people who wanted to wipe you out, the definition is extraordinarily and irrationally self-referential. How do you know that your grandparent was Jewish? Because they had a Jewish grandparent?
If so, I suspect that all Palestinian refugees can claim to be Jewish if they go back two or three thousand years. There must be a Jewish ancestor in there somewhere. Would they then be allowed to benefit from the law of return?
LaRit, ok, but you can't counter one extreme position by taking another one. In any eventual settlement, Palestinians and others will need to resign to Israel's ongoing existence, and Israel will need to backtrack from its exclusivity, since no modern democratic state operates like that.
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable. A new low in CiF moderation.
ReplyDeleteLast night, the pro-Israel smtx01 called Habib and Montana "revisionist antisemitic fukers" (sic).
TinLaurelandHardy took exception to the abusive antisemitic charge and accused smtx of being a racist. Leopold asked for justification of this.
I said it seemed to me that smtx was a zionist and since I see zionism as a form of racism (as does a UN resolution), a zionist would be a de facto racist.
In that and a number of subsequent posts, I used no strong language or insults or made any abusive accusations, but my posts have been deleted one by one.
smtx's original and IMO libellous post still stands.
I think if Nathalie Hanman has outsourced CiF moderation to Cifwatch, she really should let us know.
Here, for the record, is smtx01's post, still there (with 30 recommends!):
Gosh ive had a a look at that UT, i thought Cif was bad, but what a buch of revisionist antisemitic fukers, hey habib/montanatana manana, and quite a few others(all though not all) ,habib in reply to charles comment totally disses the mere idea that one million Jews were ethnically cleansed from their north african and arab and muslim homleands(including my family/but im half russian as well. Frigen horrible site obssessed with waddya it seems. horrible(delete)
Vizzo;
ReplyDeleteI'll get back to you in a bit.
Spike:
Clearly the CiFWatch mentalers have a grip on CIF. That's outrageous - expect deranged frothers from CiF watch like the unlovely Repunzal and co. mobbing on here before too long. And no doubt a mention in the JC about UT.
methinks Charles has a lot to answer for....
Vizzo:
ReplyDeleteHow does making a point that by trying to declare a 'racially/ethnically/religiously pure' mean wanting the opposite extreme?
That's missing the point surely?
As for a 'settlement' and a 'two-state' solution, forget it. The SOI has entrenched its position, for the most part, illegally and in contravention of international law for decades.
There never was going to be a 'solution', the only 'solution' being every last Arab is expelled.
An excellent post Vizzo.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not we like it, sovereignty and nations exist. I am not particularly bound up to Israel, or religion, but when you hear the quotes coming out of the arab world, you can understand why the IDF are on constant alert.
And, as I said before, to echo you're 'all nations are constructs', which I can agree with, why is nobody questioning the right of Finland or Tuvalu to exist? When will the day come when all nations are told that they are invalid, that borders must be torn down, that all government and central authority (including the administration of public services/welfare state) must collapse?
It just is not wrong for a minimum standard in peace negotiations to ask that the large number of countires in the Arab/Muslim world acknowledge that their neighbouring country, a member of the UN and created under a UN mandate has a right to exist.
Whether or not you like the concept of nations Olching et al, the fact is they exist as entities. Mercifully we have organisations like the UN which allow for greater co-operation and compared with every attempt in history to try a 'no nations' ideology I'm much happier with borders and national entities.
I consider myself an internationalist, I like the beauty and diversity of the world, I will hopefully learn more languages in future. But at the same time I recognise the instrinsic rights of sovereignty and self determination among national groupings, with admitteldy arbitrarily defined boudaries.
Spike
ReplyDelete"I said it seemed to me that smtx was a zionist and since I see zionism as a form of racism (as does a UN resolution), a zionist would be a de facto racist."
Yes, there was. It has since been revoked. The only resolution ever to be revoked in fact. The original resolution was passed in 1975 when the USSR essnetailly told all the poor countries under it's axis to vote for it. It was revoked in 1991.
Here is the map which shows all the countires that think Zionism is racism. Relatedly, it is also the same countires which refuse to acknowledge the mere existence of their fellow UN member state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNGA_4686_Map.png
Charles;
ReplyDeleteI consider myself an internationalist, I like the beauty and diversity of the world, I will hopefully learn more languages in future. But at the same time I recognise the instrinsic rights of sovereignty and self determination among national groupings, with admitteldy arbitrarily defined boudaries.
It's a shame that Israel does not share nor recognise the 'beauty and diversity in the world' as you do Charles, nor recognise Internationally declared 'boundaries' as it continues its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and it's relentless pursuit of its own warped identity based purely on racial/religious/ethnic segregation and superiority.
It's a real shame you have selective reading and understanding habits. Like I said, you do have more in common with CiFWatch types than you do here.
"it is also the same countires which refuse to acknowledge the mere existence of their fellow UN member state"
Yes and Israel is the only 'State' which fails to recognise the sovereignty, rights, lands, religion and political choices or autonomy of those millions from whom it has stolen land and occupied for the best part of 70 years.
@Nap
ReplyDeleteSo explain to us why Zionism and the law of return are not racist. They discriminate on the grounds of being Jewish or not Jewish. Are you saying that's not a form of racism? So "anti-Semitism" isn't a form of racism either?
What is it then? Religious discrimination? In which case, how can bacon-eating Russians be Jews?
Something in their genes perhaps? Then why were the Ethiopian Falasha allowed to immigrate to Israel? They haven't got the local ME genes. Although the Palestinians are from the same gene pool as the Diaspora Jews.
So go on. What is Zionism if not racist? What kind of discrimination is it?
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing Charles.....
ReplyDeleteVizzo would a Palestinian Arab have any more 'inherent' claim on 'the land' (not an individual patch of land that he owns) than a Jewish person...?
ReplyDeleteI would say not... I would suggest that as the area known until 60 years ago as Palestine is overwhelmingly belongs to the people - be they Christian Muslim or Jew whose families have lived there for the last few thousand years.
I don't think the Jewish Diaspora have any more 'right' to settle there than US citizens have a 'right' to settle in the UK. Individuals may apply to stay here or even apply for citizenship, what they don't have the right to do is to set up an official 52nd state on UK land. The Jewish Diaspora set up a Jewish state on Palestinian land that's not on.
The fact that the Jews lived in 'The Land of Israel' 2000 years ago is neither here nor there. The ancient Britons occupied most of Britain in Roman times. AS one of their descendants I don't consider I have the 'right' to kick out all the people of Viking Saxon or Norman origin and claim it back. The fact that the Jews have been persecuted in Europe for centuries does not excuse it.
The solution to that is to fight against prejudice and racism and develop societies that provide safety to all their citizens.
However while we have class society those who rule us will always want to use the old tactic of divide and rule to deflect us from asserting our rights against them.
Ultimately under international socialism this issue would solve itself all people everywhere would be seen as human beings.
As yesterday we celebrated Burn's Night I thought this might be appropriate :
Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.
"On the issue of Islamic scripture, Karen Armstrong’s biography of Mohammed has an interesting angle. If we take as a starting point that there is no God and the revelations are man-made, then it follows they’ll closely reflect the time and place where they originated."
ReplyDeletePrecisly Vizzo, and you can recreate that statesment for cultural and political movements which reflect the time and place of their origin. Zionism for example, was born in the Shtetls of central and eastern Europe. Yes, it was 'nationalist' but it was precisely that which was to deliver the Jewish people from persecution by Tsar or Emperor.
Anyway, I'm 'chickening out' of this conversation becuase I've got OU work to do.
ReplyDelete@Nap
ReplyDeleteIf the arab countires where Jews had been residing had not started the forced expulsion and pogroms in 1948 then those Jews would not have gone to Israel and there would probably be more Jews in the arab world than in Israel. Israel would be a much more smaller and diverse place and would have had friendly relations with their arab neighbours.
Do run along and read a history book or two. You think the Zionist colonisation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine dates from 1948? Look up the Balfour Declaration. Look up Deir Yassine, which had remained neutral in the war, and see just how friendly those Zionists invaders were to the people of Palestine.
The Zionists set out to steal an Arab country and massacre and deport its population. Any subsequent reprisals against Jews in other Arab countries were very wrong, but they were reprisals.
Anyway, I'm 'chickening out' of this conversation becuase I've got OU work to do
ReplyDeleteNo surprises there then.
Completely disagree here, Nap, but hope the OU stuff is coming along ok, start ramping up your credits before any price hikes come in maybe.
ReplyDeleteThe 'right to return' idea is clearly discriminatory, and unsustainable if Israel is ever going to be an ordinary, modern, democratic state. As NapK correctly points out, Zionism has its own historical roots and explanations (one of several good points here by NapK - why do people keep snapping at him...?)
ReplyDeleteBut in practical terms getting Israel to backtrack on anything is mind-fuckingly hard, as Obama has found out at the cost of some of his political capital. They are wholly reliant on US support, but they also know full well that no US president will ever leave them to hang, so all the US can do is impotently cajole them.
Another inconvenient issue is the benefits that the US and - the West in general - accrue from having a heavily armed and belligerent ally in that region, and the Israelis leverage that too.
The Western guilt-explosion triggered by the mere mention of anti-Semitism is another complicating factor, and another thing the SOI freely leverage.
But at the same time, the rhetoric coming from Hamas and others like them provide an excuse for the SOI to entrench, and make it more difficult for the US to justify withdrawing their support.
"The 'right to return' idea is clearly discriminatory, and unsustainable if Israel is ever going to be an ordinary, modern, democratic state."
ReplyDeleteBut it doesnt want to be those things, it wants to be a racially defined state with all the lands it *thinks* belongs to it, regardless of the people living there, regardless of international law, the UN, and with a complete disregard for killing the present inhabitants, sometimes with illegal munitions and illegal raids of aid ships on the high seas. Indefensible.
Ok Jay, but they don't exist in a vacuum - I'm not as pessimistic as you are that eventually they'll have to adjust their expectations in order to retain the support they need.
ReplyDeleteUnrelated point - have you thought about stepping up for that Cif 'men on sexism' panel?
From Jezza's Twatter feed:
ReplyDelete"Psst, men ... have your say on sexism – and write for our next readers' panel. Details + how to email me: http://gu.com/p/2mkbt/tw #gender"
Form an olderly, non-patriarchal queue, gents.
Nap,
ReplyDeleteA ludicrous appreciation of history. Please do some reading, then come back.
Itothevizzo,
"I reckon you could make a logical case that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and defend it - but how is that ever going to contribute to a two-state solution?"
The two-state solution looks dead and buried following the recent wave of leaks. I don't know what the solution is; I do know treating Israel as a 'rational' player in this is flawed. Israel exists on the politics of fear (most states do to some extent, granted) and the politics of might. It's so apparent.
"would a Palestinian Arab have any more 'inherent' claim on 'the land' (not an individual patch of land that he owns) than a Jewish person...?"
Well, it depends on the context (force, longevity of claim etc...).
"So Hamas' charter can't be understood purely as a response to oppression, rather it's symptomatic of a wider perception which only feeds Israel's paranoia and brings us further from a solution."
Again, I disagree, because you have the balance all wrong. The fact that Jews lived in fairly good autonomy during the Ottoman Period points to a very specific context of Arab-Jewish relations. And let's face it, the rise of Zionism (and Arab nationalism, for sure) only helped make things worse (Kibbutzism etc...which is effectively colonisation).
"Ok Jay, but they don't exist in a vacuum - I'm not as pessimistic as you are that eventually they'll have to adjust their expectations in order to retain the support they need."
ReplyDeleteBut they only need one supporter when its the hyperpower, and they have it. Thats why they act with total disregard for the law and the rest of the world. US support will not fade, at all. No sign of it whatsoever.
The people's panel is one of the most baffling things I've seen them do yet. I just don't understand it, such a strange reaction to two totally different stories - Raab and Gray, just chuck them all in together, its the same thing isnt it, men being sexist. Lets get a panel going to remind ourselves how beastly they are, and consequently how appalling Raab's comment was - as, lets face it, none of us have even attempted to rebutt his figures.
Get the lattes in and the misery lit out, ladies, this is going to be fun - a love-in of Grauny, upper middle class feminism patting itself on the back.
Baffling. So no, Viz, i won't be offering, and they'd say no if i did - I'm on my 10th day of premod, precious little dears. You? Knowing the Graun they'll take one AllyF type, and 4 LenFirewooods.
Don't know why Jess would suggest such a weird PP.
I'd presumed when they said they were asking for a male view on sexism that they might be enquiring as to whether men feel there are sometimes double standards at play. For example, a woman can have on the wall of her office cubicle a torn-out ad of David Beckham in his tighty whities (I've seen a few) but a man can't have a pic of Lucy Pinder in similar fetching attire in his cubicle. Or why was it a problem that female students were underperforming but it's not that a problem now that male students are? And so on.
ReplyDeleteBut no. I see that The Topical News Hook is the Andy Gray/Sky Sports story, so I think they're looking for men to fess up to talking about the hooters on Sharon from accounts around the water cooler. ..."we want male Comment is free readers to tell us about how they talk about women when there aren't any around. If sexist comments are made, do you challenge them?"
Perhaps a more accurate invitation to proffer an article might be "Men...are you complete bastards or just one of those lily-livered bastards who won't speak out against the complete bastards? Email me now yesweareallcompletebastards@guardian.co.uk
Yeah, its the old "are you still beating your wife?"
ReplyDeleteIts not "sexism", its the sheer double standards that rile me, as you say.
@JayR & olching
ReplyDeleteI do know treating Israel as a 'rational' player in this is flawed.
...they act with total disregard for the law and the rest of the world
Not sure about that - excepting their stance on Palestine, Israel ticks the EU boxes of what a healthy democracy looks like, i.e. low systemic corruption, free press, social provision for citizens, free and open elections. Even the Palestine deadlock can be seen in practical terms - if it’s a negotiation to establish regional power, then the Israelis have taken the most uncompromising position possible and then only give ground when they absolutely have to.
I also don’t agree that the US is able to unconditionally support them - they’re already exerting pressure, however impotent, to get the SOI to engage with the process and halt settlements. Israel wouldn’t be able to stage another 1967-style land grab now, so they do act in accordance with the international mood to some extent. They’re just especially belligerent about how they deal with it.
I think it’s crucial for the Palestinians to rally round pragmatic causes themselves, i.e. not Hamas or any Islamist politics, in order to make the SOI position look unreasonable. I know that the radicalism is in large part a response to oppression, but in the same sense that Zionism is a response to historical pogroms - no excuse. And note that this last point is not intended to downplay or mitigate Israel’s actions...
On the men on sexism PP, agreed it's an odd one, but it might be a way to have the same old argument in slightly different parameters...
ReplyDeleteItothevizzo
ReplyDelete"Not sure about that"
Then you are simply in denial of reality. We have seen the leaks and it is clear that Israel has no interest in peace (because its existence is based on ongoing violence!).
"they’re already exerting pressure"
No, they are not and in light of the leaks it makes even less sense to argue this.
"but in the same sense that Zionism is a response to historical pogroms"
You could also see Zionism as simply part of two broader trends in C19:
- New religion (in response to the 'rational age'), like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists etc...
- Part of internationalism (they ditched that very quickly).
Well didn’t Burns night go down well at Graun Towers. That Shelagh McKinlay article being the tartan cherry on a metropolitan cake.
ReplyDeleteI don’t mind a bit of piss taking about Burns night or anything to do with Scotland but is that the best they can do, the Scottish Cringe writ large?
Not a single article about Burns politics, his internationalism (as mentioned by Anne above) or his relevance in 21st Century Scotland and why he is taken so seriously.
No siree, we’ve got a real Scottish native cringing all over the celebration and it got a well deserved kicking BTL. Did anyone see it? Here’s just a taster:
“Yes, it's Marti Pellow Night! When citizens of the greatest small non-sovereign nation north of and attached to England join together to take heroin and sing Ilikekickinginthegutter and-a Wishin' Ah Wiz Lucky, while mincin' aboot like they've goat a bad case o' piles.
But jings! Ah'm huvin ye's oan, so ah am! Marti Pellow night's no' till the morra right enuff, eh no? Tonight is of course Burns Night when, just fur a wee change, "supper" consists of oatmeal and the heart and lungs of lamb chopped and nestled in the stomach of a sheep, then boiled for eight hours. I can see youse ur thinkin' "Oh, fur a nice bowl of Special K and a wee Blue Riband!" eh?”
Breathtaking.
Over in the lifestyle section was the usual crap about haggis and just to add insult to injury one of the comments on the ‘comments of the day’ section is all about the things they hate about Scotland.
Can we expect to see the following article over the coming year? –
Diwali- crazy candles, crazy hindus!
St Patrick’s Day- fidleediddleeedeedeedeedee! Top o’ the morning to ya, have you got a potato?
Ramadan- OMG, all that curry, imagine what their toilets must be like the following morning?
Just parking this comment from the new Penny Dreadful thread:
ReplyDeleteModerator, why is it not permitted to make allusions to the chutzpah involved in writing an article about others' unreasonableness on issues of pay and gender when the author has been caught trying to breach pay and employment laws?
Dinnae fash yersel', 13thDuke. Cif's resident arse-licking professional Scot and Glasgae intellectual liked it.
ReplyDeleteI though this was a rather funny piece Ms McKinlay thanks very much!
Hoots mon, bonny Leopold1904, your fried Mars bar is in the post.
Robbie was certainly a handsome man.
ReplyDeletePerhaps one of our regular Scots could submit an article on St. George or Trafalgar Day.
Whoops - just noticed I had written regular Sots - error corrected.
@Leni
ReplyDeleteNo problem. Both sots and Scots are available.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAfternoon all
ReplyDeleteThe latest unemployment stats for graduates can be seen HERE.However the situation for young people without degrees is far worse.
In another shocking development, Tony Blair appears to be not quite getting the lurve in his role as Middle East Peace Envoy:
ReplyDeleteTony Blair criticised for 'Israeli bias'
Leaked papers show Palestinians feel quartet envoy is paternalistic and that the Israelis don't take him too seriously
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFrom the article about the 11 year-old charged with homicide in Pennsylvania:
ReplyDeleteThat leads to only two conclusions: either kids in the US are far more violent than those in the rest of the world, or the US has developed uniquely harsh sentences.
No reason for that to be an either/or sentence, really. :-/
Although I disagree vehemently with the notion that this kid (or any other 11 yr old) should be locked away for life without the possibility of parole, I also disagree with the father's assertion that a kid that age doesn't understand the concept of 'the rest of your life' as if that somehow mitigates what the kid did. Joe's 11. He understands right from wrong and he sure as hell knows that it's wrong to shoot someone in the back of the head while they sleep.
As for smtx01's comment --
So not only does the slightest bit of criticism of Israel earn one the epithet of being "revisionist antisemitic fukers" (sic), now making a sarcastic comment about CifWatch is proof of one's antisemitism??? Well, as a woman, I can only respond that smtx01 is obviously a sexist pig.
This notion that the clowns at CifWatch have that any criticism of Israel equates to anti-Semitism is just hilarious. That means that many (if not most) American Jews are anti-Semitic. Certainly every one that I've ever known would be.
And my dictionary (Oxford Concise) defines Semite as:
a member of any of the peoples supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. 10:21 ff.), includeing esp. the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians, and Phoenicians.
Damn straight. I hear those Assyrians were real badass motherfuckers. So glad they're all dead now.
There is one upside to smtx01's comment still being up -- Habib & I had a little bet last night. He thought it would be gone before 11 am. I said it wouldn't be deleted. I get to gloat all over his overly-trusting ass now.
includeing esp. the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians...
ReplyDeleteThat misspelling would by an issue with my typing. Believe it or not, it is spelled correctly in the OC.
So cif will give us a PP on men gossiping about women....gawd! Why? Page hits?
ReplyDeleteWorth watching if you're interested in the Palestine Papers....calm and reasonable analysis from Diana Buttu at the Institute for Palestine Studies
this is all not so much about what the PLO did or said as what it didnt't do or say when it should have.
Where's this penny dreadful thread?
@olching
ReplyDelete[Israel’s] existence is based on ongoing violence
How so? I mean, in what way does that make sense?
The leaks didn’t show that Israel don’t want peace - just that they aren’t prepared to concede anything at all to get there. That’s pretty much in keeping with their public behaviour on the matter, so the leaks didn’t really illuminate on that front.
And I still don’t think that this proves the SOI isn’t a ‘rational’ player, although maybe a more ruthless one than it previously seemed. Perhaps they’re not conceding because they have judged that they don’t need to. That’s apparently acknowledged by the PA, as shown by the huge concessions their negotiators offered the Israelis (the leaks do illuminate on that front).
Maybe Israel have calculated that eventually the PA will agree to establishing a reduced, de-militarized and generally subjugated Palestinian semi-state, which Israel will magnanimously allow to exist...?
I don’t really know, but I am more interested in a pragmatic explanation rather than a fanatical one - as I said earlier, in most other respects Israel is a rational place, and they wouldn’t be the first state to pursue a self-interested agenda ruthlessly.
Also I wonder what the effect of the leaks will be on the situation over there. The ‘demeaning’ PA offers will presumably alienate a lot of their support, but it’ll be a huge step back for their own cause if those people drift towards the Islamist doomsday nonsense peddled by Hamas.
Rather excellent short film that's been Oscar nominated and can be watched here -
ReplyDeleteWish 143
Vizzo
ReplyDeleteThe leaks didn’t show that Israel don’t want peace - just that they aren’t prepared to concede anything at all to get there
Thats wanting peace?
Here, Sheff.
ReplyDeleteActually probably one of the more rational things she's written.
I don't know sheff, but I can't make sense of the theory that they want perpetual war. Why would they? Who benefits?
ReplyDeleteIvo
ReplyDeleteIs it perpetual war in the sense we usually understand war - 2 (or more) armed forces fighting in the field of battle or bombing each other to destruction. Can you have a war when one side is unarmed ?
You can have a powerful nation using their military supremacy to maintain an unequal and cruel status quo - to their own continuing benefit.
Cui bono?
ReplyDeleteWell, the military-industrial complex for one. The US for another as they have a handy base in the ME wot sits on top of all their oil.
And the Israeli politicians who get elected on the back of their bellicosity - never underestimate the importance of cupidity. (This last goes for the other side as well, of course.)
Itothevizzo,
ReplyDeleteWell, believe whatever you want to. It is apparent that the Palestinian Authority was offering them well beyond anything anyone had imagined and still they rejected it.
All you are saying is that they want everything and that that is rational. And that Israel, apart from the minor issue of disenfranchising people, is a lovely democracy. Fine.
I find debaters like you almost more frustrating than people like NapKaramazov. You cloak yourself in some kind of 'common sense' language and it takes me a day to find out that it's all just a debating club for you.
It's now come to the point that you deny the papers show what they do. What's the point of continuing this debate?
@Montana
ReplyDeleteKizbot reckons smtx01 is a she.
Spike
ReplyDeletesmtx has said she is a she.
Spike
ReplyDeletehave to say I have often found smtx's comments reasonable and even pacific.
Every so often she seems to break out into a rage - can't always understand her.
@Leni
ReplyDeleteI've always seen her leap to Israel's defence if ever there's the slightest criticism. Perhaps the rages are linked to that, or have you seen them happen with no mention of Israel?
Jesus christ, Penny is (predictably) disgracing herself BTL.
ReplyDeleteWhy not rename feminism? Well, first, because I'm not in charge of it. Second, because feminism's main priority is not to appear gentle and unconfrontational and pleasing to men. Its main priority is to liberate us all from gender oppression, and that starts with women. It's not our responsibility to make you feel comfortable- it's your responsibility to get involved because it's the right thing to do. If men are put off by a movement because it sounds a bit girly - like sick toddlers refusing to take a medicine because it's bright pink- isn't it a reflection on them, not on feminism?
As for the one or two so-called feminists who truly are 'unreasonable man-bashers': they do not represent feminism. They are not 'feminist bigots', they're just bigots when they express those views.
So men - and anyone else - put off by feminism as it stands today are 'sick toddlers'?
As a feminist, I too object to 'girly' shit! Am I a sick toddler? (Er - don't answer that.)
@Thaum
ReplyDeleteWould you settle for being an ailing adolescent? ;-)
I don't know what the answer is either Vizzo - It does seem strange to me that successive Israeli govs only seem to do things that inflame rather than appease Arab opinion. You'd think that surrounded as they are that might be unwise. But then they are really just the US by proxy and seem to suffer from the same belligerence regarding getting what they want.
ReplyDeleteIt will not end well - I don't know whether its just me but I get the feeling that terrible things might be brewing for the middle east.
My ex old man says its quiet in his part of the Sinai though and his adopted cat has just had four kittens....
@Sheff
ReplyDeleteAs I implied earlier, I wouldn't like to be an Israeli Jew when the USA folds as a superpower. Sadly, it's not just the Netanyahus and Liebermans who'll suffer.
Also [WARNING: rant ahead], is it just me or is Dribbly getting more vacuous by the day? I still read it because sometimes in the evenings there are some interesting discussions (RedMiner, Leni, Arec, etc.) but during the day it's fucking excruciating.
ReplyDeleteToday: lame cock jokes, shoes and handbags. Oh, and bad dates. (Has anyone here ever had a bad date? Do these people have no discrimination on who they decide to go out with?)
Spike
ReplyDeleteWould you settle for being an ailing adolescent?
Too close to the truth to be comfortable. ;-)
@Thaum
ReplyDeleteA lot of it's supposed to be vacuous and is quite amusing IMO (I like one-liners). But then I would say that since I take part. :-) If they ever suppply the inconsequential chat thread they keep promising, you'll be able to avoid the banter.
But I'm still bloody annoyed that all my carefully reasonable posts in answer to smtx's hate rant were deleted today, presumably due to the Hasbara thought police hitting the abuse button.
Evening all
ReplyDeleteBrain dead again. Was prosecuting a DV court today, which is always utterly draining. Got 4 guilty pleas, though, and only one victim "but we love each other" no-show, so not all bad, even if I feel like I have done three rounds with Mike Tyson myself now.
No school for me tomorrow, so hopefully I will be able to catch up with everyone/everything good and proper.
Hugs to all x
Spike
ReplyDeleteI don't actually like talking about people in their absence but smtx has expressed very reasonable views on Israel - she does get angry with what she sees as AS and is very defensive about Jews from Muslim countries being expelled.
This is not a debate I get into as the movement of Jews from several areas was in fact from choice - although there is no doubt that some fled for their lives - or at least in fear of their lives.
Leni
ReplyDelete"Is it perpetual war in the sense we usually understand war - 2 (or more) armed forces fighting in the field of battle or bombing each other to destruction. Can you have a war when one side is unarmed ? "
Well no, it is not a conventional war like that. Hamas have stated that they are prepared to use womens wombs as a weapon, ie to outbreed the Israelis. I believe the term is 'demographic bomb'. This is the reason why 50% of people in Gaza are under 16. To be fair, the Israelis do echo this 'baby as a weapon' sentiment as well, particularly the Orthodox.
Spike - I have no objection to a bit of banter, it just seems to be getting lower and lower in quality! Maybe I am just getting crankier in my old age.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see your posts before they were deleted, but I expect it was some very unreasonable censorship.
"Well, the military-industrial complex for one. The US for another as they have a handy base in the ME wot sits on top of all their oil."
ReplyDeleteThis is an erroneous statement Thauma. Most of the mideast oil is located in Saudi Arabia and all the other Gulf Sheikdoms (rich as fuck but never offering more than a fig leaf to the Palestinians). Israel is pretty bone dry. And there are no American military bases in Israel apart from a few air defence sites- their bases are all in the Saudi and the gulf states. America probably gets a lot of stick from their arab 'allies' for having diplomatic relations with Israel at all, but it is only their buying power that keeps the arabs appeased. Not that I am seeking to defend the US status quo, just pointing it out as it is.
I've got no truck for the AIPAC, Israel lobby etc in America. What I would hope for is that Arab recognition of Israel would end Israel's rationale to rely on the US.
Charles
ReplyDeletethere are also several thousand Gazan adults in Israeli prisons.
you are making the mistake of assuming that the views of extremists are the views of the majority.
what about the @Kins's Torah@ published by right wing rabbi which claimed it was fine to kill anyone who may be an enemy of the Jewish people in the future as justification for killing P children and babies or G Alderman's thesis on the Rodef.
Do you thinj they represent the majority of the Jewish people.
Charles
ReplyDeleteThat should be Kings Torah - tyring to do 2 things at the same time is often a bad idea.
Charles - you tryin to tell me that the Israelis wouldn't let the US land, refuel, perform 'extraordinary renditions' etc. in Israel?
ReplyDeleteHamas are extremists, Hamas are the majority Leni, at least in Gaza. There are Isreali Jewish extremists as well, no doubt.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this debate is a long one, and...well I don't think we should talk about is so much. All these hundred plus posts come because of my assertion that Israel is a sovereign country and a member of the United Nations, surely the other sovereign members of the United Nations are bound as members of that organisation to merely accept the existence of their fellow members. As I said, even when there are disputes, say us and Argentina over the Falklands, we both recognise each other's sovereign right to exist.
Again, who questions the right of Finland or Tuvalu to exist. Who questions Finland's immigration poliicies, which make it easy for their fellow Nordics and EU citizens to come in, but to the east, they are, for obvious reasons, very selective about how many Russians can come in. Does that make Finland a racist state?
"There is one upside to smtx01's comment still being up -- Habib & I had a little bet last night. He thought it would be gone before 11 am. I said it wouldn't be deleted. I get to gloat all over his overly-trusting ass now."
ReplyDeleteGloat away, Montana - I was wrong and have lost the last vestige of belief that CiF was a decent place to be.
Charles, if you look deeper, you'll find that Hamas are extremists for a reason. That doesn't mean I support them, though. It's up to you, but you might want to consider the situation in a way that isn't clouded by the idea "Israel - good, Arabs - bad"
ReplyDeleteThings just aren't that simple.
Sovereign country? Ha ha ha like that matters to the mass murderers - Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan...
ReplyDelete@olching
ReplyDeleteAll you are saying is that they want everything and that that is rational.
I think you could attempt a rational explanation for their actions, yes. That doesn't make them justified or morally right. Since we seemed to be in agreement on that, there didn't seem to be much point in posting repeated confirmations of it. But since you seem to require it, yes, Israel's position is indeed indefensible.
You cloak yourself in some kind of 'common sense' language and it takes me a day to find out that it's all just a debating club for you
I'll admit I'm a bit puzzled by this. What did you expect to find out? That you're taking part in a UN assembly?
@heyhabib
ReplyDeleteHamas are extremists for a reason
All extremists are extremists 'for a reason'. That doesn't mean that what they do is justified.
@spike
ReplyDeleteIf they ever suppply the inconsequential chat thread they keep promising, you'll be able to avoid the banter.
Personally I couldn't care less that the thread is used for both suggestions and chatting shit. But what I don't get is the ongoing assurances that the separate thread is 'on its way' - surely if they're going to do it, it should take someone about 3 minutes at most? And if they're not doing it, why not just say so?
"All extremists are extremists 'for a reason'. That doesn't mean that what they do is justified."
ReplyDeleteNo shit, Sherlock, but it does mean they don't just materialise out of nowhere.
Spooky, I was just going to say "Unless you think Mordor is a real place, of course..."
ReplyDeleteDare I watch Andrew Neill on the Posh? I haven't budgeted for a new telly if I put my boot through the screen of this one.
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDeletei'm risking it - see how it goes.
Evening all ;)
ReplyDelete@Vizzo
"I can't make sense of the theory that they want perpetual war. Why would they? Who benefits?"
Of course they don't want 'perpetual war'..... although the $billions they get from the US comes in very handy for one thing or another, like building Apartheid Walls and being armed to the teeth with the most sophisticated military hardware and weaponry you can imagine.
The SOI just want the world to 'go away' so they can get on with the matter in hand and accomplish their obsessive mission of eradicating Palestine and her people's rights and history in whatsoever manner they choose. FOREVER.
The trouble is that in this debate, the inevitable idea that all Israeli's are Arab-hating, murderous bastards can often seem like the implication and this is just not true.
You may want to check out this link to a film by an Israeli Film-maker about Operation Cast Lead... shown on C4 News this evening ...told from the Soldiers perspective....very well worth a watch...
Revealed....
Have starting throwing things - Hurd says Cameron is 'stronly intelligent'
ReplyDeleteHis performance so far throws some doubt on this assertion - says she politely.
@I to the Vizzo:"Personally I couldn't care less that the thread is used for both suggestions and chatting shit. But what I don't get is the ongoing assurances that the separate thread is 'on its way' - surely if they're going to do it, it should take someone about 3 minutes at most? And if they're not doing it, why not just say so?"
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was wondering about that. The only conclusion I could come to was that they don't really want a separate "chat and banter" thread since that would leave them brutally exposed on "Wadya" to deal with what people actually want to talk about.
@Leni
ReplyDeleteHeheh. I didn't hold out for long. I changed channels when they started interviewing the two Eton old boys waiting to go up to Oxford.
Heheh. I didn't hold out for long. I changed channels when they started interviewing the two Eton old boys waiting to go up to Oxford.
ReplyDeleteF00k that for a lark. I am watching True Lies on TCM. Very silly, funny film, loosely based on the french film La Totale. Some great gags and set pieces.
Montana
ReplyDeleteI am very interested in water issues - particularly in water mining.
Big problems in some US states where extraction rates are not controlled - so aquivers not refilling (fossil water) are running dry causing severe anxieties for future water supplies.
Came across interesting snippet about New Mexico. They have apparently some old Spanish laws still on statute books. One declares that all water belongs to the king - currently interpreted as belonging to the people. This allows the state to control extraction rates as all are deemed to have access to available water - not for free of course.
Are there any moves to standardise water laws ? If not I can see huge areas becoming increasingly arid very quickly.
Hello Leni: no doubt you are familiar with them but for anyone who isn't, "Jean De Floret" and "Manon Des Source" are two classic French movies which tackle the problem of water distribution and more importantly, who owns it.
ReplyDeleteSuperb films, Chekhov.
ReplyDeleteNapKaramazov,
ReplyDelete"Hamas are extremists"
Blah blah blah. In the comfortable world of growing up in Britain, they are extremists. In the reality of being treated like dogshit, having members of your family executed for no reason, being subjected to racial profiling which means more than 'stop and search', living without citizenship, without the basic rights of access to basics, of being labelled an extremist from birth just for being born in a strip of land that some fucking bible stories tell others is rightfully theirs while you and your family deserve to be smitten, in those circumstances Hamas are simply an answer.
You start your imbecilic history in 2006 whereas perceptive commentators are at the very least aware of a pre-history of violence and discrimination that reaches back even further than 1948.
@Itothevizzo
"I'll admit I'm a bit puzzled by this. What did you expect to find out? That you're taking part in a UN assembly?"
Sorry, I mistook you for someone (initially at least) who was interested in more than discourse, but actually about the subject matter. It seems I was wrong. Table any topic and Itothevizzo will play Devil's Advocate. Grow up.
Not a lot to disagree with about the programme on the "Posh political elite" prognosis on BBC2.
ReplyDeleteSad fact is that the Labour elite now just about own some of the safest seats in Yorkshire.....Ed Milli, Balls and wife were all parachuted into ex mining seats......etc
'twas Michael Foot who gave us Blair..........I'm getting sicker and sicker as I think about where it all started going wrong
(wretches into bucket)
chekhov
ReplyDeleteI had forgotten the films - are they available do you know.
The ownership of water is contentious issue - on the small personal landowner scale and where rivers cross borders.
Sudan is unable to extract enough water from the Nile because of old British laws which granted superior extraction rights to Egypt.
Many such situations exist.
"George Soros tells David Cameron: change direction or face recession. Mix of tax increases and spending cuts unsustainable, speculator says, as World Economic Forum gets under way"
ReplyDeleteNo comment.
I mistook you for someone (initially at least) who was interested in more than discourse, but actually about the subject matter. It seems I was wrong. Table any topic and Itothevizzo will play Devil's Advocate.
ReplyDeleteWell, discourse about the subject matter.
But ok, the devil's advocate thing does have some truth to it - in my defence, I reckon threads benefit from having a contrary voice. If we're all agreeing, then what's the point?
deano - hello
ReplyDeleteDo you think the forum will achieve any tangible results orsimply act as talking shop for ideolgues to further entrench their positions?
@Itothevizzo
ReplyDelete"in my defence, I reckon threads benefit from having a contrary voice. If we're all agreeing, then what's the point?"
Next up: In defence of child rape.
I don't think so.
As I said, grow up.
"If we're all agreeing, then what's the point? "
ReplyDeleteErrr... maybe that we all agreed!
What's wrong with that?
Spike
ReplyDeleteSaw the Neil thing, nothing we didn't already know "here"; but why the fuck the BBC have been bigging this up on their website all day as some kind of expose says a couple of things;
1 how fucked our political compass is, and
2, potentially at least, how fucking craven the BBC News organisation is...
BTW - if you did watch it, the Stoke thing has been a source of fascination for several months. Can't get to the bottom of it at all, and I've had at least a couple exchanges with local Labourites there who tell stories that add and unnerving complexity... can anyone enlighten me here ?
Nothing at all chekhov - I totally agree!
ReplyDelete@olching - stop it with the melodrama. child rape, ffs. If you're such a fragile ego then next time work out what you're trying to say before posting it.
Olching
ReplyDeleteSpot on with your post, I have to say.
(And nice to see you posting here again)
I find it really hard to understand how people cannot see that movements such as Hamas don't occur in a vacuum. Worse, I find it really hard to understand why people automatically revert - I am thinking of the Brackenator as an example - to accusations that, just because someone can understand the causation that leads to an organisation like Hamas developing, that makes us some kind of apologist for it.
Vizzo - what on earth has ego got to do with it?
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, they've got fuck all else to define their opposition
ReplyDeleteLabour have the same problem - perhaps they just need a few quotes from mein kampf and the protocols in their charter...
Wotcha Mademoiselle La Ritournelle x
ReplyDeletesomeone can understand the causation that leads to an organisation like Hamas developing, that makes us some kind of apologist for it.
ReplyDeleteLook at the random shit that was flung at NapK for trying to understand the causation that leads to Zionism developing...!
LaRit,
ReplyDeleteAgree entirely. The US administration is squirming beyond anything at the moment now that their stooges are being found out. It would be even more interesting if there were a new generational shift in Israel, which would oust the neo-conservative consensus there. Sadly, those Israelis inclined that way leave.
BB,
Ditto, agreed. We all have an annoying cousin who used to provoke other cousins incessantly until one of them hit him only for him to turn around and play the victim wolf at having been hit. This is the kind of 'Hamas is evil' argument: no historical context, no interest in understanding cause and causation.
Itothevizzo,
*You* get a grip. If you're arguing for argument's sake, choose a more appropriate topic rather than the dehumanisation of Palestinians and Bedouin (oh what a frightfully good pro-and-con argument!).
I don't know, perhaps defend Andy Gray or something.
Wotcha Back Mizz BB! X
ReplyDeleteSee, I did that in bold ;)
@Vizzo -
NapK is an unenlightened lightweight who thinks he's clever. Who reverts to passive-aggressive behaviour when he appears to be bored.
Hence the cat amongst the pigeons stuff re: Israel.
Itothevizzo
ReplyDelete"Look at the random shit that was flung at NapK for trying to understand the causation that leads to Zionism developing...!"
Entirely unfair. I helped him put it into context by suggesting to other aspects (new religion, internationalism).
It was the post-trauma bullshit on which he was called out.
Ack don't worry Vizzo. To be fair I think a lot of people made a lot of valid points, and yes Olching I understand the shit situation in Gaza. Saw the channel 4 news report larit, and while of course it is shocking, at least those individual soldiers realised the moral wrong they had done and spoke out.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, browsing of the interwebs found this site, 'Graun watch' run by someone called 'Quiet riot girl' (is she on cif).
You can read her 'about' page here-
here
@Charles/Nap
ReplyDeleteIf you understand then why do you revert to the
wind-up passive-aggressive shite which has no basis in factual, critical analysis?
I don't understand. You are not stupid.
Interesting look at how much military aid the US supplies to Israel - with interactive map.
ReplyDeleteFrom 2009-2018, the United States is scheduled to give Israel--the largest recipient of U.S. aid--$30 billion in military aid.
@Leni
ReplyDeleteI think you'd be very interested in the irrigation setup down where I stay with friends in the summer, to the south of Granada. It's the same as in North Africa, with a water committee deciding on allocations, deciding at what time which people can open their sluice gates and water their terraces.
When someone has made a special contribution to the community, they can be allocated extra water rights.
A sort of water soviet system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acequia
La rit, and Olching as well
ReplyDeleteThe whole converstion could be avoided. I've only got one statement to make; Recognition of the sovereign right of Israel to exist by the surrounding countries is a necessary in any peace process. This is not a debating society, but do you agree or disagree?
My point is that, whatever Israel do, Hamas are not 'the answer'. You can't counter extremism with even more outlandish extremism - and I'm not saying it to score points, I genuinely think that the leaks are likely to boost Hamas, which will inflame things further and ratchet up the human cost.
ReplyDeleteAfter which, I promise not to talk about this anymore.
ReplyDeleteAre there any moves to standardise water laws ? If not I can see huge areas becoming increasingly arid very quickly.
ReplyDeleteNo, Leni. And there would probably be quite an outcry if there were. Many Americans are very big on local control of such matters and what's best for the environment rarely has anything to do with the decisions. I'll never understand the hows & whys, but I know that there are times when states that draw water/power from the Colorado River get into major disputes. As I recall, California somehow has rights to a certain amount of it & that states upriver are often suffering so that southern Californians have enough water for their swimming pools and green lawns.
A lot of agriculture in the western US is highly dependent on irrigation, as well. Cheap lettuce is very important, you know. If that means that aquifers are depleted for future generations, oh well.
@NapKaramazov
ReplyDelete"The whole converstion could be avoided. I've only got one statement to make; Recognition of the sovereign right of Israel to exist by the surrounding countries is a necessary in any peace process. This is not a debating society, but do you agree or disagree?"
It's entirely irrelevant, or rather only relevant to neo-cons who wish to skew the real issues that dog the Middle East.
Okey Dokey, pig in a pokey!
ReplyDeleteTime I was in bed. Lie in tomorrow. \o/
NN all xx
Spike, did you watch the Andrew Neil thing ?
ReplyDelete@Leni:
ReplyDelete"I had forgotten the films - are they available do you know"
Don't see why not, I'll have a bash at digging them out for you.
Bitters
ReplyDeletei watched about half of it.
Leni, dare I ask which half ?
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDeleteVery interesting - looks as though that is , at least in part, the system operating in New Mexico.
there are ancient systems - apparently introduced from Iran - being reconstructed in Syria which also has severe water shortages.
Montana
I understand that the High Plains have massive problems with aquiver extraction - which started there in the 1930s. this problem - across the world - really needs cross border solutions and in US obviously interstate agreements which are fair to everyone.
Awareness raising exercises are needed.
Will continue tomorrow.... am fuched
ReplyDelete:-( x
The first half - which is probably not the bit which interests you Bitters.
ReplyDeletePS
ReplyDeleteHello Bitters, Leni and Mr Chekhov ;)
and... g'night fer now x
ReplyDeleteWhy's that ? I saw most of it Leni. Didn't add up to much to be honest.
ReplyDeleteHi La Rit !
Hi also chekhov !
Bitters
ReplyDeletei thought perhaps you were interested in a specific point made.
I found it rather tedious - didn't reveal anything new.
Leni
ReplyDeleteI was curious how the Stoke thing would be approached; all we got was that it was a "stunning revelation".
It was tabloid telly for Broadsheet readers really.
My point being... maybe that's what it takes to at least prick the consciounces of those dickheads driving along tomorrow listening to Radio 5 phone ins and solemnly agreeing that the cuts are part of a Law of Nature...
Or maybe it's just the BBC simultaneously ticking the box that says "disenfranchised poor" and the one that says "Andrew Neill is the way forward for unchallenging and vastly overhyped mainstream political commentary which suits our taloid needs".
Hmm. Eh ?
On which note...Mad Dogs and Englishmen
ReplyDelete(Sheff & MSChin will get that link and this)
ReplyDeleteKids, planes, runway strikes
Flashy pimps and family fights
Spotted dogs, blood-shot eyes
Our space captain laughs and tries
To understand the scheme of things
But just in time the scene has changed
The bus is here, bring the beer
Sherman's reading Shakespeare
Movie makers, boobie shakers
And Sexy airplane ticket takers
Union members
Leo Fender's pride and joy
Electric toy
Teachers, learners
Incense burners
Religious leaders and chronic bleeders
Thieves and pirates on a ride
It's a hippie commune bonafied
But Okies and Limeys, curtain climbers
Stones and future Dominoes
Know which way the wind blows
Stolen cola no one knows
The shadow do
But it's still a shady crew
'Cause I love her, and she loves you
Just myself and forty friends
In the name of Cocker power
Out here on the road again
With Mad Dogs and Englishmen
This is sweet too...
ReplyDeleteEtta
And I don't mean the Basque seperatists either.
Bitters...
ReplyDeleteSorry, was supposed to be hitting the hay and then got distracted down memory lane... so still awake to say .... errr... g'night.
Here's to the 'morrow!
Oh Bullshit Olching, it's to do with being a step forward towards dialogue and reconcilliation. Sod the neocons. Anyway I've pissed enough people off, I can only apologise. I will take a leave of absence from here becuase I've been hogging the thread too much and it's not fair on other posters.
ReplyDeleteGoodnight.
Morning Bitterweed and any other night people who're about
ReplyDeletePeoplesPanel for men to talk about how they discuss women in all male environments? FFS! Talk about setting men up for a fall!I think i'm gonna burn a pair of boxers in protest and send the ashes to MsReed by courier.
In the meantime here's another oldie i discovered from The Average White Band