Swan 1: Good morning. Quiet round here, innit? Swan 2: Yes, the regulars must be hard at work instead of hanging around on here. Swan 1: Mmm. Ah well, I expect someone will turn up soon. Swan 2: They'll be along to disturb our peace any time now, I suppose. Fancy a fish?
Swan 3: Cheers guys, now that the dog's pissed off and the yoomans have arrived, we can get back to cruising on the river. Swan 1: Cool runnin's, man Swan 2: Gulp - mmm, nice fish.
And yes, I had noticed the unwavering support from some on CiF for the use of water cannon, especially after the student protests. Nice fucktards we mix with on there, eh?
The BBC are giving conflicting reports about Sharm el Sheikh, one reporter says it's quiet and another says that barricades have been put up outside his hotel. Just checked what the British travel agencies are saying about Egypt & have to say that one state that there have been "no reported incidents" in Sharm el Sheikh. Based on my sister's experience, where she was saved from a rampaging mob by a Turkish shopkeeper, I beg to differ - why are we being kept in the dark?
My own experience leads me to suggest that if you want a mixture of more reasoned discussion and to be amongst people who are more like those who used to populate CiF, it is better to go to The Telegraph or The Independent.
Strangely, scanning through the comments on The Telegraph recently regarding the state of the economy and George Osborne's handling of it, I didn't spot anyone who thought the government was doing well or who wanted to bash the poor and sick or who blamed immigrants or Johnny Foreigners.
Like some kind of filthy fucked-up siphon, CiF just seems to keep sucking up the dregs and expelling the decent people.
However, given many of the writers and certainly some of the editors and commissioners, this is more inevitable than surprising.
Embarrassingly, they still think they are living in their heyday, with nothing but vistas of bigger and better spread out in sunshine before them.
They're only as good as the information they get. Did you or your sis report that incident (sounds terrifying for her by the way, hope she's OK) to the FO, travel agent etc?
You live in Brighton don't you Jay, or at least you frequent it often. Will you be going to see the new Brighton Rock adaptation or as I have dubbed it, Eastbourne Rock, owing to the fact that a large chunk of it was filmed there to replicate 1960s Brighton (the book itself is originally set in the 30s). I was visiting my dad a while back and they had dressed the pier up as the Palace pier. I've read the book and I enjoyed it, and do I will probably go and watch this film.
I’ve always wondered that about some posters on CiF.
They profess to hating the state and wish to see it diminished in the name of socio economic freedom. They then want the state to use excessive state intervention in the form of violence to stop people legitimately protesting against the consequences of anti-statist “economic freedoms”.
This in turn creates the necessary conditions for further excessive state measures (supported by those who hate the state) to prohibit intensified protest against the entity (The State) which the anti-statist posters profess to not wanting in the first place.
Yes, the BBC World Affairs Editor, John Simpson, was apparently strongly advised to stay in his hotel room for his own safety. Perhaps he disobeyed.
However, war reports in the past have been filed from hotel bars, with rumour, hearsay and gossip simply dressed up as fact by adding a little colour and detail - along with the reporter's own prejudices and personal propaganda memes.
Jon Snow tells the story of an American reporter arriving by helicopter at the edges of a conflict in South America somewhere.
Snow spoke to him to see if he could help and the reporter said something like:
"No, thanks, it's OK. We have been given the story to broadcast by Washington. We are just here to get some background shots for tonight's news."
Hadnt heard about it tbh, Nap, so probably not. The Palace Pier was recklessly renamed "Brighton Pier". Totally pointless. It was the Palace Pier and should have stayed that way, god knows why they thought they'd just rename one of the City's biggest landmarks, useless morons.
Eastbourne? The very name sends shivers down the spine...
Duke - makes no sense whatsoever, completely baffling. People are really cheering on police brutality against citizens protesting against a programme that has the most wafer thin legitimacy. People get the governments they deserve, I spose.
Just a quick comment for Chekhov who seems to be hard of reading:
I never called you a neocon, because I have never seen you write anything 'neocon'. I expressed my surprise at your attempt to be (apparently) PeterBracken and NapK in relation to international politics. Leni got it right in her reading. Hope this clears things up.
”...However, war reports in the past have been filed from hotel bars, with rumour, hearsay and gossip simply dressed up as fact by adding a little colour and detail - along with the reporter's own prejudices and personal propaganda memes...”
Funny and true. I well remember us squiring some dozy "Young Fogey-ish" twat from the Telegraph round our sector in Bosnia in the mid-90s, he was enormously impressed with the organisation and the saluting, “now, which way are the enemy?” Err, “the enemy”...? Through the binocs, I helpfully pointed out to him the contingent busy digging in, in a small village a couple of kms to the south east over the MND line, and warned him to exercise caution because, as we could see them, so them us... as he went pale and ducked behind the Landrover, he clearly didn’t realise they were French, though.
I got a bit of a telling off for that later, he’d filed some guff about “coming face to face with the enemy in X”...
Anyway, it’s often only later that the “full picture” emerges. Being at the sharp end of a riot, or stuck head-down in a ditch while someone’s slinging bullets your way, isn’t normally conducive to clear thinking or reportage.
"... A London banker dies in poverty and so his local pub decides to raise funds for his funeral. One day a man walks into the pub and is asked to donate 20p for the fund. "What's it for?" he asks, and the landlord tells him. So he reaches into his pocket, hands him a £5 note and says, "Here, go and bury 25 of them...."
I liked that one.
My deepest sympathy to those that have to have a regular encounter with the drudge of emptying/changing pee bags. It's a fag.
But it's a fine sunny day in Yorks so I'm away to try out the latest velcro strap to leg model on a walk with Mungo.
"Police use CS spray on tax protesters"........the thought has occurred to me that the latest model I'm trying out might be the answer to kettleing. ......I'd love to see hundreds of full catheter bags flying plodwards as they kettled old/infirm protesters.......bastards.
enough with the vicarious voices and pretensions about you living your life and anyone that doesn't get it is a smug cunt - what a cop out - enjoy Nick Cave
*UT gang(avert your sensitive gaze, I like the guy - we have a history going back to DriveByAbuser times but occasionally he talks through his arse and I have to call him on it)
Plastic (or the earlier rubber) baton rounds weren't ever designed to be "harmless". They were designed to incapacitate in a "non lethal" way.
The modern ones (like the L5A7 and its replacement, the L21A1) do (although there are certainly reservations about the energy these projectiles can pick up as a result of close-to-firer ricochet, something the training in their use is supposed to take account of). The older ones sometimes certainly didn't. But no one ever seriously called them "harmless".
Olching "I expressed my surprise at your attempt to be (apparently) PeterBracken and NapK in relation to international politics."
Oh for goodness sake.
Jay I've read Brighton Rock and I enjoyed, so I will be looking out for the film, even if a lot of it is filmed in Eastbourne. The location is just detail, they obviously couldn't use Brighton cos the place has changed a lot.
Hey, parallaxview, arse-talk is indeed one of my talents, especially after a long evening "relaxing", but WTF do you refer specifically ? And "Enjoy" Nick Cave FFS - similar to "enjoy ringworm" ?
Re: events in Egypt & Sharm in particular. I'm sure the British govt & the travel agencies are well aware of what's going on. It's pretty hard to ignore reports of the miltary moving into Sharm, with tanks & troops deployed on the ground and planes / choppers flying over the area; plus Sky News reporting that Mubarak is at his holiday home there.
Agree with you about rubber bullets though, don't recall them ever being considered harmless. Interesting insight from you into war reporters!
Point taken. Hope your sister's OK, it's a scary thing, no matter who you are, getting up caught up in stuff like that.
And yes, I don't have an enormous amount of respect for the general run of "war" reporters, as a rule. Although there are some good ones out there, as always.
Just following Barry Glendenning's transfer deadline blog. Apparently only image rights and salary to be trashed out to complete Torres' move to Chelsea. Which would be cool. And Newcastle have rejected £30m offer from Liverpool for Andy Carroll. Which is fucking stupid.
The worst reporters I've met were the ones who flew in to Khartoum during the famine in the 80s - stayed at the Hilton, stuffed their faces from the eat as much as you like buffet...did a quick whizz round the camps and flew out the following day with their pictures of starving, anguished mothers holding their dead babies. Bloodsuckers the lot of them!
Cheers - text messages get through but they take several hours. I'm now concerned that with other countries evacuating, it's going to be a bit mad at the airport - assuming she can catch her flight today.
Just seen a post from cellarman over in the IntenseDebate thingy - says he's been banned from CiF. If you're reading, cellarman, please join in on the usual thread.
Indeed not, as I said. I'll tell you, I've actually seen a "live" plastic round snap someone's shin in two. And it's not a long stretch from that to understand that if you fired one at someone's face from ten metres away, you'd kill them. No doubt.
Not sure BW, you talk of others' predicaments, or play others' representations of your sentiments but somehow self-effacingly side-step your own voice (talent) - I reckon that there's a layer to you that's beyond vicarious stories, 'smug cunt' pronouncements and video links. So that's where it's coming from and I'm not asking you to change - because that's who I've always known you to be - but, c'mon - Nick Cave - I mean really are you off the planet? Your credibility is plummeting - even in Leamington Spa
Looks like the Egyptian economy is tanking - so lots of anxiety about investments. all this sudden concern for social justice for the Egyptian people is so much bullshit - they've never been interested in it before - just in their strategic and economic interests.
"...If it came to it do you you think our army would be as restrained?"
Reports are now suggesting the Egyptian Army's "restraint" is starting to wear a bit thin - there's talk of artillery rounds being fired into the air in Alexandria.
Although if that were literally true, of course, there'd be 100s more dead to add to the growing list.
About 3 years ago a friend of mine from village went to Egypt. S was not politicised beyond demonstrating against mine closures in the 80s.
Being a typical Welsh grandmother she asked the woman who was their guide about her family - how many children etc. They got to talking. The guide told her that she was very poorly paid and that none of the money from the tourists went to help the people adding that if she were discovered talking in this way she would lose her job. She was supposed to create image of happy and prosperous Egyptian people.
S came back with a strongly developing urge to understand the world.
I have been thinking about that tour guide - bet she was on the streets.
Tourism alone is 5% of Egyptian GDP and loads of the less well off depend upon it with their little stalls and shops. Long queues for bread and basics in Cairo this morning, which are in short supply as shops have been shut and not stocked up.
A guessing game; here are two US political commentators on the Egyptian crisis. 10 points each for naming them.
Statement A: "We cannot deliver democracy to the Arab states, but we can make our principles and our policies clear. Now is the time to say that the peoples of the Middle East are not “beyond the reach of liberty” and that we will assist any peaceful effort to achieve it – and oppose and condemn efforts to suppress it.
Such a statement would not elevate our ideals at the expense of our interests. It turns out, as those demonstrators are telling us, that supporting freedom is the best policy of all."
Statement B: "With so much at stake, it is a mistake to be sitting on the sidelines. Western governments can be a positive force on behalf of genuine freedom and against attempts to impose a new kind of tyranny of the Islamist variety. But we can’t do that if we are seen as propping up a hated tyrant, or worse, encouraging the kind of bloody crackdown that could at best produce an artificial “stability” for a relatively short period of time. The possibility of a bad outcome is very real, particularly because we did nothing to encourage more evolutionary change earlier, but I believe we have a better chance of a good outcome if we support positive change than if we support the status quo."
parallaxview - I can take a compliment; quite simply, it's time mate. I have a day job usually with pretty limited scope for all this, in the evenings I do other work with my bands, or am out and about, and also have me girlfriend who has serious contraints on her time, so when she's around this game takes a back seat. Hence the restriction to late night anecdode and the occasional polemic. When its late, I want to play music because that's my thing; and I'm usually doing it after a night out. Hence the exacerbated innanity, which I freely admit to enjoying thoroughly.
To do this shit properly I'd want the whole day/evening clear, otherwise points aren't made well, nor responded to, and the whole thing feels a bit pointless. But thanks for asking. Others seem to manage; f@ck knows how !
PS Cave has done some good stuff, just playing with ya ;-)
This all hangs on which way the army go. If the most senior officers decide to stick with the status quo - can they rely on ordinary conscripts to fire on the people. I'm thinking they can't and I'm sure they know that. So are we looking at serious horse trading between Mubaraks lot and ElBaradei? Or do you think the regime will try something on before the big day tomorrow - general strike etc?
I don't know who they are but I'd bet my last sixpence that whoever they are, they've never shown an iota of interest in freedom and justice for the Egyptian people before this insurrection exploded into life.
They’re not all "ordinary conscripts". There’s a cadre of professional soldiers runs down the spine of the Egyptian Army, and some formations are entirely “professional” (e.g. their Republican Guard).
Your wider point stands, though – Mubarrak will need to be engaged in some seriously fancy talking to keep the military onside. If he fails, he goes down, and the Armed Forces take over.
If what’s apparently happening in Alexandria is any guide, he may be winning the argument. But as we all know, you can win a battle and still lose a war – so time will tell.
Personally, I think he’s fucked. Interim government backed by the Army (overtly or tacitly, doesn’t really matter) is the obvious next step, elections to follow “somewhen” once the dust has settled. They’ll have to be sharp about it though, because the groundswell of protest has gone well beyond something a couple of concessions and some vague words will placate.
You're almost certainly right. It's just interesting that these two are at least saying the right things, unlike tossers like John Bolton and Rick Santorum.
For the record: A is Elliott Abrams and B is Paul Wolfowitz.
Bitters - yep time, I know, fucking thief that it is. Hope your friends in the thick of it are ok - I feel as though I'm interrupting the pundits of the cause - but of course we are simply in the best of all-that-can-be-broadcast stadium seats watching a game played out elsewhere. Support of course is important - but let's not imagine that we're there suffering for the cause.
Glad to hear we're on the same page with Nick so hey shoot me down
Aye - should have remembered the Republican Guard - 'cos they'll be Mubaraks down to the last man - but they can't do it on their own and I don't think they have the rest of the army with them.
I think you're right, that stubborn old bastard Mubarak's had it and there will have to be talks with ElBaradei and the opposition groups - lets hope sooner rather than later. He won't like sitting down with the Muslim Brotherhood at all.
A concern here is how much the opposition groups will be prepared to compromise and what external players ie US/UK/Israel/Europe etc are up to in terms of influencing the outcome. And what do any of them know about governance? What about the massive bureaurocracy and all the petty officials who could make life very difficult. So many questions - and so few answers.
PeterJ
Wolfowitz?? Wolfowitz!!....that devious, shifty creep - he's the last person you'd want meddling in something like this.
I've been on the receiving end in SA, albeit a few years (~cough~decades~cough~) ago, and the technology to shoot lots of water, under pressure, very fast may have moved on! It bloody hurts loads, the picture made me wince.
parallaxview Not to put too finer point on it, I do visit him out there and am aware of the levels of corruption and depravation Mubarak has happily foisted on people for decades - to the point where last couple of times I was there, and I was getting pretty angry with it all. Out of this same chaotic madness that passes for a 21st century socio-economy my pal - a psychiatrist who works with some very deprived people, occasionally receives death threats from people with vested interest in mantaining this anti-human chaos.. My anger and disappointment with that regime is real enough, and it is as real as my hope that some form of better society can come out of all this, is sincere. It's no more "vicarious" in this sense than anyone else's disgust at poor people being treated abysmally - and while being realistic about their potential to make things better, hoping them all the best. Do you think this is just tourism ?
Support of course is important - but let's not imagine that we're there suffering for the cause.
What makes you think we're doing that parallax? Support and solidarity is all we can offer - in the hope that the Egyptian people will be aware that millions around the world are behind them in their bid for liberty and social justice. Plus as Bitters says some of us have mates there, know the country a bit and love it.
Yep, at £35m a pop, it must be footie. Makes me incandescent, all this high paid footballer / must-buy merchandising crap. Can't stand football these days.
Sorry Duke & other footie fans on here - I know you all love the game, but I wither ever time it comes up for discussion.
pv - ok, got it... you want to hear my mate's voice outside his clinic at 3 in the morning armed with an iron bar. He's really smart but basically a fucking medic and couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. I guess some of that panic rubs off somewhere ! Catch ya later.
Yep, I imagine water cannon does hurt when you're on the receiving end. I've only played with fire hoses and they bloody well hurt too - the pressure is very high. This was years ago and quite legitimate, btw, lest anyone thinks I was guilty of some sort of drunken misbehaviour - we were raising funds with the fire service, for charity.
Were would we be without your linkies. Even more apathetic.
I forgot to mention that we had a slight earthquake the day before yesterday. 4.8 Richter epicentre 40 miles away. Our top-floor apartment swayed a bit, but there was no damage
By The Associated Press Israeli officials say they have agreed to allow Egypt to move several hundred troops into the Sinai Peninsula for the first time since the countries signed a peace treaty three decades ago.
Under the 1979 peace treaty, Israel returned the captured Sinai to Egypt. In return, Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized.
With street protests threatening the Egyptian regime, the unnamed officials say that Israel agreed to allow the Egyptian army to move two battalions, about 800 soldiers, into Sinai. The officials say the troops moved into the Sharm el-Sheikh area on Sinai's southern tip, far from Israel, on Sunday.
As the unrest in Egypt has spread, Israeli officials have grown increasingly concerned about the stability of their southern neighbor. They are especially worried that Palestinian militants could take advantage of the unrest to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip through tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border.
Above from print edition of Haaretz.
Things are changing very quickly. Is this a move towards crack down. ?
Andy Carroll is something to do with football, but I'm not quite sure what. Not so much as a footballer as a tall thing that's useful occasionally. It's a bit like paying £35m for a ladder.
Shiloh, Duke--Agree generally about war reporters but did read a book called 'War" by Chris Hedges in which he describes some very harrowing experiences 'in theatre'. A good, but somewhat disturbing read. He also said he can't go back to it due to anguish and nightmares.
Abrams and Wolfowitz! Those fuckers have had their filthy hands in many a foreign adventure. War criminals too.
That 35 mil. for Carroll is shocking, though he is a powerful if unfinished player. Suppose it was too good to turn down for Ashley and Toon.
MsChin--Best to your sister from me too. Must be quite worrying.
Currently Andy Carroll is crocked, suffering from a thigh injury he allegedly picked up falling off a bar stool in a casino. I'm guessing that's what they're referring to when they talk about him being "an old fashioned centre forward".
Hope your sister and her man get home ok. Just had text from the old man in Masbat. Apparently they now have one soldier manning a checkpoint usually manned by the plods. Its sill quiet and everyone is ignoring the curfew. All in rather good humour.
Yes, from the link to the Department for Business Innovation and Skills:
The Employer's Charter
Find out what you can and can't do when managing your staff, domestic servants and slaves you own or are trading
For employment law to be effective there needs to be a balance between protecting employees and enabling businesses to operate effectively in order to support economic growth.
Advice and guidance on employment law often focuses on the rights of employees and what employers have to do to comply with their responsibilities. This focus can leave some businesses feeling they have lots of responsibilities but no rights, the balance is all in the favour of the employee, and being afraid to take on and effectively manage their staff.
The Employer's Charter aims to dismiss some of the myths about what employers can and can't do in managing their workforce. It tells you what you are reasonably entitled to ask and know about your employees, and what action you can take if there are problems.
The Employer's Charter - (Also available as a PDF) (PDF, 44 Kb)
As an employer - as long as you act fairly and reasonably - you are entitled to:
ask an employee to take their annual leave at a time that suits your business
contact a woman on maternity leave and ask when she plans to return
make an employee redundant if your business takes a downward turn ask an employee to take a pay cut
withhold pay from an employee when they are on strike
ask an employee whether they would be willing to opt-out from the 48 hour limit in the Working Time Regulations reject an employee’s request to work flexibly if you have a legitimate business reason
talk to your employees about their performance and how they can improve
dismiss an employee for poor performance
stop providing work to an agency worker (as long as they are not employed by you)
ask an employee about their future career plans, including retirement
shoot or otherwise maim or kill an employee owned by you who is found attempting to escape
nail or otherwise affix the ear or tongue or other body parts of an employee to their workstation or other suitable object if they are found to be working too slowly
kidnap and ransom relatives of an employee who is underperforming
chain employees to the floor or wall and feed on dog-food for a period not to exceed one week in order to improve productivity
relocate business to the Congo and imprison employees and use as slave labour for a period not to exceed thirty-five years or until dead
This is intended to help employers understand what they can do in general. Of course, individual circumstances may vary and employers should act in accordance with their legal obligations.
However, in order to promote growth in the UK economy and ensure that employees never again stand on their hind legs and imagine they have rights or power, we will seek to ensure that the courts never again find in favour of a filthy employee over their magnificent masters.
BBC1 news is interesting they're saying things like 'the Egyptian revolution' and "after 5000 years of having no say in their future" Seems like the tone is changing.
I don't know who they are but I'd bet my last sixpence that whoever they are, they've never shown an iota of interest in freedom and justice for the Egyptian people before this insurrection exploded into life.
Quite right, sheffpixie, and in that respect they're exactly like you and everybody else here. But suddenly you take the moral high ground. Perhaps you simply forgot to express your 'iota of interest' for the Egyptian people in your last two thousand comments on UT.
Best to speak of that which you know. I have connections with Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east about which i care and just because I don't parade them on the UT doesn't mean I don't feel strongly about them. So why don't you just check your facts before you sound off or preferably stfu.
best to speak of that which you know. The writers have connections with Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east about which they care and just because they don't parade them on the blogoshere doesn't mean they don't feel strongly about them. So why don't you just check your facts before you sound off or preferably stfu.
A simple google will identify the writers PeterJ referred to, and whether you agree with them or not (I don't) you could at least make the effort - they've been writing about Egypt for years. Admittedly, what they have written is total bullshit, but they have actually written about Egypt for decades and they have an opinion, and they're not jumping on a bandwagon.
So what are you saying Luke? Because i didn't know who the quotes peterJ put up were referring to I'm somehow not allowed to speak about the issues?
Well you can fuck right off! I'll say what i like when I damn well like and the day you come on here and actually make a useful comment rather than just whining every time you appear, I'll raise a cheer with everyone else.
PS: I could have cheated and checked the quotes out but chose not to - no doubt you would have what with your googling skills.
I'm not normally pedantic but i was wondering why only 114 comments are showing when the thread says it contains 124 comments.For i thought those in the spam folder didn't show up in the tally until they had been retrieved.Can anyone enlighten me as to where the missing 10 comments are? Ta!
Not usual for me, but I've been on Facebook a lot over the last couple of days as an easy way of relaying info round the family. Someone sent this to me:
'Scroll to the bottom of your Facebook page where it says in little blue letters, "English (UK)" Click on it. When the language box pops up, click on the arrow next to "English (UK) and select "English (Pirate)." When you've stopped laughing, paste this as your status'.
Wandering aimlessly round various Anonymous sites - love the way they operate & wish I had the skills to take part. I think that while they are right about the limitations of the traditional means of protest, the events in the Middle East have proved that the traditional methods work exceptionally well in tandem with the new techological methods. Very pleased to see the Anonymous open letter on the Al Jazeera site, says a lot about solidarity across generations and cultures imho.
So does mine, but I think I'll leave it for a day or two as a counterbalance to all the serious stuff a lately. Presumably we can change it back again by reversing the process!
I want to turn mine into Nazis in a bad war film, English. "Vee haf ways of making you talk, Englisher pig-dog!" But there doesn't seem to be a setting for that.
re water cannons: Towards the end of the regime, they used to put purple die in the cannons, so they could easily identify us after. Hence the slogan 'The Purple Shall Govern' that cropped up in the MDM...
And yes, they hurt a lot. And have been known to cause injury.
From the author's website: "...These escape routes transform the merely powerful into the untouchable. “Don’t tax or regulate us or we will flee offshore!” the financiers cry, and elected politicians around the world crawl on their bellies and capitulate. And so tax havens lead a global race to the bottom to offer deeper secrecy, ever laxer financial regulations, and ever more sophisticated tax loopholes. They have become the silent battering rams of financial deregulation, forcing countries to remove financial regulations, to cut taxes and restraints on the wealthy, and to shift all the risks, costs and taxes onto the backs of the rest of us. In the process democracy unravels and the offshore system pushes ever further onshore. The world’s two most important tax havens today are United States and Britain.....!
Meerkat not exactly crystal clear communications from me tonight....."I wondered if you had a view?"
I simply intended to enquire if you had seen reports of the claimed research and had taken an initial view on the possibilities.
I thought that it might be possible to resurrect the Labour Party if it was true and we could insist on DNA samples from prospective Parliamentary candidates.
Just a drive-by - again. Didn't get in til 8 and I've been working ever since. Hope all is well, and thanks for all the stuff about what is going on in Egypt - so much better to be able to pick up on things in here and get something vaguely resembling the full skinny instead of the tendentious crap that is flying left, right and centre.
Hugs to all. Hopefully sometime this week I might have time to hang around and be sociable!
If you have a spare minute can you drop James an email and tell him several UT's have enquired of his well being of late and we hope all is well with him.?
Don't want to burden you with UT secretary role on top of all your work for us ....but the recent problems down Brazil way may hopefully soften the request...
"....Millions of people have a queasy feeling that something is not right in the global economy – but they struggle to put their fingers on what exactly the problem is. Treasure Islands at last tells the real story of where it all went wrong. This is the great untold story of globalisation.
Tax havens are not exotic, murky sideshows at the fringes of the world economy: they lie at its centre. Half of world trade flows, at least on paper, through tax havens. Every multinational corporation uses them routinely. The biggest users of tax havens by far are not terrorists, spivs, celebrities or Mafiosi – but banks.
Tax havens are the ultimate source of strength for our global elites. Just as European nobles once consolidated their unaccountable powers in fortified castles, to better subjugate and extract tribute from the surrounding peasantry, so financial capital has coalesced in their modern equivalent today: the tax havens. In these fortified nodes of secret, unaccountable political and economic power, financial and criminal interests have come together to capture local political systems and turn the havens into their own private law-making factories, protected against outside interference by the world’s most powerful countries – most especially Britain. Treasure Islands will, for the first time, show the blood and guts of just how they do it......."
This really is a style of writing that I like....I've ordered the book
I think James is travelling in Europe at the moment.You can see a picture of himHERE. Obviously he's the young guy in the background with the purple t-shirt but i guess people would have figured that out for themselves.
In Ireland the well-known totally corrupt ex- Taesorch,Berty Ahern, ex-PM , is heading a consortium from China Switzerland and Araby to privatise 7% of the country--- the forests.
Far more important than the Gender and Identity Politics wiffling that occasionally dominates UT, waddya, and CiF.
Have been following events in the Middle East with interest as well as the related discussions here.I realize i don't know as much about the region as i should so have been googling when i've had the chance.
With regard to the Palestinians and related to our posts over the weekend i've been looking at the situation of the Palestinians in Jordan.And although Jordan is one of the more stable and peaceful nations in the region there is nevertheless potential for the large Palestinian population to destabilize that.Not passing any judgements at this stage but it seems that Jordan,along with the Saudis and Egypt and some other Arab states have shall we say a complex relationship with Israel and America.Whether of course that is reflected in the views of the peoples of these states is another matter.And of course as we know the Americans have a long 'proud'record of supporting corrupt regimes which have appalling human rights records.
I,m sure i'm telling you something you already know .But quite clearly you don't have to scratch much beneath the surface to see just how complex things are in that region.
I should add Leni that officially any Palestinian in Jordan who either acquires Jordanian citizenship or seeks to own land in that country is supposed to renounce their Palestinian citizenship.Of course whether that breaks the emotional tie to the Palestinian lands is another matter.
If we look at the P refugees and the stateless P who for various reasons are not registered as refugees they are seen as 'demographic threat' to both Jordan and Israel. They are very restricted in Lebanon with no civil rights. There is nobody mandated to speak for them or present their case for RoR.
Originally I think it was genuinely believed they would return to Israel. What were seen as temporary arrangements became permanent. The result is that there are now about 5 million of them in total.
It is doubbtful that Israel and WB has carry capacity to support them all. Nobody - including PA - is really willing to have them.
Some Gulf States have been expelling them over last 2 years. We effectively have a small nation which is completely homeless and generally unwanted.
The Jordanian king's position is shaky - the Brits created Jordan and appointed the Jordanian royal family.
Jordan is desperately poor - competes with Israel for Christian tourists etc.
The fortunes of millions are tied up in anI/P peace agreement and upon amount of land each finishes up with.
Events in Egypt are crucial here - if an anti Israeli gvt. is installed this would create serious problems. However who ever rules E they will still be aid dependent - from US.
There is quite a strong lobby in Israel to 'give' remaining WB to Jordan - just get rid of problem. Jordan has said 'No thankyou@
The same lobby wants Egypt to have Gaza - again - no thanks.
Add the fact that Jordan is responsible for Muslim holy places in J'Salem - as you say there are complications.
None of this excuses Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
Syria wants the Golan Heights back but Israel needs it as it is main catchment area for water to feed lake Galilee - the feeder lake for the Jordan. Golan is also prime arable land.
as the Israelis say - Go figure.
If you are interested in various suggestions from Israeli side look up Eiland - retired general cum Intelligence.
It is a simple historical fact that for much of the time the majority of straightforward well-intentioned honest folk happen to be governed by small-minded incompetent and often corrupt FUCKING WEASELS.
There comes a time when normal civilised discourse is not enough; they look you straight in the eyes and fuck you over. WE, being civilised , restrained, maybe a little cowardly too,fear any descent into violence, because it's not our scene.
So we have to think of ways of 'fucking right back at them'.
Unfortunately the 'white-collar criminals' of this world fear nothing more than a Jeffrey Archer term in an Open Prison, which is hardly a deterrent.
ACPO has a data base including all of you lot,and me(french RG phone-tapping from 1987 ), so why not a counter-database for the Evil Weasles?
Regarding your post about the rise in p/t employment there are now over a million part timers who want/need a full time job.I'm not an expert of the various welfare top ups that are available but i thought they were only given to people who have dependant children and possibly some people with disabilities.I wonder therefore how many households classified as 'working poor' are actually living on p/t wages without any top ups from the state?Indeed is it possible ?
i have a hit list - unfortunately I wasn't built to be a hit woman.
When we came here I went to see the then head of Ec Dev. We came under W Glamorgan then - before the reorganisation to Unitary Authorities.
Behind his head was big map of his area - try as I might I couldn't find our village. Finally I stood up and walked behind him, peered at map and wrote our village name on it.
Slightly ruffled - but always polite - he grumbled into his tie. Iasked him if there was a D notice on the village - he managed to hiss at me 'Not officially'
It would be impossible to live on pt job without top ups - even for a single person.
The working poor expression hides a lot of real poverty. we have pt'seasonal work here - winter time is hard as delays in benefits when laid off leaves people without money.
many people prefer to stay unemployed rather than take these jobs and face the disruption in income.
btw thanks for your post on the middle east situation.Fcuk knows how things will unravel there.Regarding the Palestinian issue i've always supported their right to self determination and deplore the way the Israelis have behaved in Gaza,the West Bank and also in Lebanon.But could a Palestinian state consisting of both the West Bank and Gaza seperated by Israeli territory actually work?
I've have toyed with the idea of the West Bank becoming a UN protectorate-obviously with the support of the populace-until the situation can be resolved.Whereas Gaza becomes a neutral independant state-again provided it was supported by the people of Gaza and guaranteed by the relevant powers in the region.
@Leni-So do those without dependant kids qualify for top ups from the state if they only have a p/t income coming in? Methinks i'll have to google on that one !
"PaulBJ 31 January 2011 1:19PM In four weeks time the migration to ESA (Employment Support Allowance)will begin for existing claimants of IB(Incapacity Benefit).And it is estimated that every week 10,000 sick and disabled people will be summoned by ATOS for their dreaded WCA( Work Capability Assessment).In fact the first batch to be tested will soon be receiving their ESA50 forms from the DWP which in most cases will lead to the summons from ATOS.
The government has admitted that those claimants who have been receiving disability benefits for a long time and/or get the highest rates of disability benefits will be the first to be subjected to the inhumane WCA. Forcing them off disability benefits will after all provide the biggest savings for the ConDem Government.
If the outcomes for existing claimants of IB are anything like those for those new claimants who have been tested for ESA by ATOS since October 2008 then over 50% of existing claimants are likely to be declared 'fit for work'.40% of those who appeal will have their ESA reinstated but will then be subjected to a game of cat'n' mouse by the DWP/ATOS who will call them in at regular intervals to be re tested.Plus those who do appeal will be receive a telephone call from the DWP who will attempt to dissuade them from pursuing their appeal.
Less than 10% of existing IB claimants are likely to be placed in the ESA Support Group which means they will largely be left alone by the DWP/ATOS until their regular review datesPlus there will be no time limit on their claim for ESA.However those placed in the ESA Work Group will only receive their benefits for 12 months.
The ConDem government is well aware that many of those who are either declared' fit for work' by ATOS or who exhaust their 12 month entitlement to ESA in the Work Group will not be entitlted to JSA(JobSeekers Allowance).And in most cases their genuine health problems will render them unemployable even if technically they were capable of doing some form of work.So they will be expected to simply disappear.And no doubt the tabloid press will continue promoting the lie that most of them were malingering in the first place.
The attack on the sick and disabled,started by New Labour, shames us as a nation.For they are simply being targetted for savings because they are a soft option.And i'm sure that we will soon be witnessing a growing tally of premature deaths amongst the sick and disabled as a direct consequence of the way they have been treated by the DWP and ATOS.Yet the' HEAVY GUNS' at Guardian Towers are still silent Which imo reflects very badly on those who have the power and influence to add weight to the campaign to get these dreadful ATOS medicals stopped.And will no doubt have the Founding Fathers of the Guardian spinning in their graves"
btw deano i left a message for you at the end of yesterdays thread.Dunno if you saw it but it was of a combined congratulations/commiserations nature.Hope you're feeling better .
paul , deano, I'm not much into the general back-slapping chitchat here, but it's nice to be welcomed back!
Golem's book is already almost ancient history.
Being myself knowledgeable about, and experienced with, the inticacies of Low Finance, he and I appreciated each other early on, as did the regular 80 others who recommended his comments on the CiF Bizness threads.
Some of the stuff he's published, I've already warned him (direct) not to walk under any ladders...
Olmert's plan offered a tunnel connecting WB and Gaza - under Israel control. The gas fields of Gazan coast could certainly part fund Gaza - the amount of money required for Gazan port to reopen and develop would be enormous and would probably not be forthcoming for such a small population. WB and Gaza need a land bridge - not a small passageway.
Israel would not accept international force as they claim they would not be impartial but would favour the Palestinians.
J'Salem under original plan was to be international territory controlled by UN. Israel annexed W J'Salem and then later the E side. They are still busy removing P from E J'Salem.
Many of the houses they have demolished were built by the UN before the 67 war.
The history of this area is fairly mind blowing - a long succession of broken agreements - subject to lots of revisions. You have to read original agreements.
In the 50s, for example the water problems were already accute. There was a plan put forward to share water resources - Israel agreed but Jordan and Syria refused. They hadn't recognised Israel's rights. There is still no cross border agreement.
The result was that Israel built its own water carrier - going south from the Galilee. This means Israel now has control of water supplies. Israel also extracts from the Jordan.
The policies in the WB and Gaza are inhuman and I am left wondering how a people who suffered so much themselves can act in this way. I think we call it politics - which are inhuman.
Hello, everyone hope you're all well. (Deano, hang in there, pal!)
Paul, "I realize i don't know as much about the region as i should so have been googling when i've had the chance."
You might want to look up "Black September" to understand the Jordanian/Palestinian relationship: King Hussein did what he had to, in order to reign in Palestinians demanding another war that Jordan couldn't win.
As you said, Deano, that Newsnight report on the Boots demo was encouraging. Not only that, but the police there seemed to have followed a crash course on how to look thuggish and ridiculous at the same time. Also congrats on your news, which I saw in passing!
"frog2 I always avoid ladders and think that the opposition ain't daft."
that should have been ....assumed the opposition ain't daft .......but are Machiavellian fuckers.
I work on the assumption that 'they' can quadruple the most nasty I can think of...''and I start with their forcibly grown big toenails through the eyeball whilst super-gluing their bell ends to their.....and I seem to recall there are some nostrils..... and serious kickings in the equation.
When the Kuwaitis expelled the Palestinians they were allowed to take money with them. Many were educated - Jordan was happy enough to take them. The poor and dependent they do not want.
Those Palestinians who fled Iraq when we invaded went mainly to Lebanon. They came under the care of UNHCR rather than UNWRA. UNHCR negotiated resettlement of a few thousand in US - reports suggest they are being used as cheap labour and housed in run down areas.
How the refugees contain their anger amazes me - perhaps they have given in to despair.
There are several hundred - some reports suggest several thousand- in Lebanon and elsewhere not registered as refugees - they live in makeshift shelters and rely on chrity from other refugees as they do not get even the pittance provided by UNWRA. They have no travel docs and so are stuck.
The Arab nations have to accept some responsibility for their plight.
I saw that the police arrested a woman on charges of criminal damage for pushing leaflets under Boots' door. Interesting to see how that stands up should it come to court.
The police behaved like fools - CS gas against peaceful protestors.
Not long after Shatila and Sabra we brought two token children who had lost both legs in the massacre here and fitted them with prothetics. All very heartening but no mention of others dead or injured.
About 3 years ago there was tv fllow up on the now adult boys.
They were both walking on their hands and bottoms as no provision had been made to care for them or upgrade their legs as they grew.
The hypocrisy of the whole situation there and that of the world establishment is sickening.
Had I been in that situation I think pacifism would have been something that might have passed me by - particularly had I been in the middle generation seeing my parents past and looking ahead to my children's future.
It isn't the 'thing' to equate terrorism with national armies armed to the teeth and covered by air support - but if you are helpless, homeless and hopeless how do you either defend yourself or try to win a future ?
The policies in the WB and Gaza are inhuman and I am left wondering how a people who suffered so much themselves can act in this way
I agree with that.I remember when i first read about the Sabra and Shatila massacres in Lebanon in the 1980's wondering how on earth the IDF could stand back and allow that to happen given the history of the Jewish people.
I've always supported the right of Israel to exist within it's pre 1967 borders and do whatever it needs to do to protect itself.BUT i feel the long shadow of the holocaust along with the warped realities of international alliances has blinded too many people to just how barbaric the IDF are.Plus of course the ultra orthodox sectors of the Israeli political classes now wield more power which is hardening the Israeli position. towards the Palestinians.
But i should state that i've always accepted that there are two sides in this dispute as in any dispute.And whilst Israeli policies in Lebanon,Gaza and the West Bank have been totally unacceptable it is also unacceptable for either Hamas or Hezbollah to target innocent Israeli citizens when they fire rockets into Israeli territory.
"I expressed my surprise at your attempt to be (apparently) PeterBracken and NapK in relation to international politics. Leni got it right in her reading. Hope this clears things up."
Err well, no it doesn't. If you could clarify where and when I attempted to be (apparently) Peter Bracken and NapK in relation to international politics that might help!
Sorry to bang about this but I'm fucked if I'm going to be slandered by anyone mis-quoting me or being disingenous with their selective quotes.
Before anyone jumps on me the fact i think there are two sides doesn't mean to say that i think they are both equal.Far from it.The Palestinians are clearly in an extremely disadvantaged position.
It would be wise for people to remember that the flight of a bullet doesn't stop when it embeds itself in the soft flesh of a child - it continues its trajectory into the future.
And referring back to my exchanges with Leni earlier the Palestinians are further undermined by the complexities of the politics of the Middle East.And are also badly treated in some Arab countries as well.Apologies if i'm repeating what's already been said.
I don't know why Olching's been snarky with you.Your intervention the other night was much appreciated and everyone who posts regularly here knows you well enough to know where you stand.
It is my view - untested - that Palestinians driven from their homes in what is now Israel - both in 48 and 67 - may well hold Israeli citizenship.
Certainly any still there during or after Israli UDI would have been Israel citizens. After they fled of course the 'Absentee Landlords' act deprived Palestinian families of property.
I will write to UNHCR and ask them. UNHCR have to be persuaded to bring a test case on behalf of at least one family.
The uncertainty about the future, the rights of the refugees needs urgent clarification. Refugee status has been passed from one generation to another.
Do they all actually have absolute RoR or is designating them refugees simply a mechanism to allow UNWRA to provide for them while keeping them in Limbo?
If this was tested would these rights hold? If the answer is 'No' or even 'Probably not' then other solutions need to be sought - now.
I know about Black September.There are however a number of other dimensions to the problems in the Middle East that i want to learn more about.And the way i am i tend to always be thinking about solutions.And right now with one thing and another viable solutions aren't easy to put together because it's difficult to see how things may pan out. So what may appear to be a solution simply creates a different set of problems.Hope that makes sense.
The 67 line (Green line) is not a border - it is an armistice line. Israel has no eastern border. This is why landswaps are a possibility.
The landswaps would have to be like for like. Barren desert is no good to the Palestinians.
Leiberman's suggestion that Arab villages - and people living there - near the 67 line be exchanged for settlements is clearly not acceptable. The Arab citizens are as much Israeli as all other Israelis.
Just picked up your 2.26am post.I did say pre 1967 .Not sure if that makes a difference.As i said i need to read up more about the situation in the middle east.
Swan 1: Good morning. Quiet round here, innit?
ReplyDeleteSwan 2: Yes, the regulars must be hard at work instead of hanging around on here.
Swan 1: Mmm. Ah well, I expect someone will turn up soon.
Swan 2: They'll be along to disturb our peace any time now, I suppose. Fancy a fish?
Swan 3 (out of frame): Oi! You two! Stop preening and come and help me hiss at this small dog!
ReplyDeleteOn a more serious note:
ReplyDeleteWatch and weep - about 3 minutes into the video, you can see water cannon being used against the praying protesters.
I see John Barry has just died.
ReplyDeleteGenerations of Bond fans (including this one) salute you Mr Barry. The soundtrack to 'Midnight Cowboy' was also fantastic.
Swans 1, 2 and 3: Hissssss ... hissssss.
ReplyDeleteSwan 3: Cheers guys, now that the dog's pissed off and the yoomans have arrived, we can get back to cruising on the river.
Swan 1: Cool runnin's, man
Swan 2: Gulp - mmm, nice fish.
Swan 3: You know people always say that swans can break a man's arm? D'you think that's true?
ReplyDeleteSwan 2: Only one way to find out...
Must stop thinking self into mind of animals....after yesterday's discussion re Bid's TFTD on waddya, got carried away on blog...
ReplyDeleteAh, the harmless water cannon - its used urged on by most of cifs resident fuckwits, like AManCalledJayne the other day:
ReplyDeleteThis is what water cannon did to one bloke
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/682
Nice one, Philippa
ReplyDeleteJay
That's seriously heavy.
And yes, I had noticed the unwavering support from some on CiF for the use of water cannon, especially after the student protests. Nice fucktards we mix with on there, eh?
The BBC are giving conflicting reports about Sharm el Sheikh, one reporter says it's quiet and another says that barricades have been put up outside his hotel. Just checked what the British travel agencies are saying about Egypt & have to say that one state that there have been "no reported incidents" in Sharm el Sheikh. Based on my sister's experience, where she was saved from a rampaging mob by a Turkish shopkeeper, I beg to differ - why are we being kept in the dark?
ReplyDelete...most of cifs resident fuckwits...
ReplyDeleteNice fucktards we mix with on there, eh?
My own experience leads me to suggest that if you want a mixture of more reasoned discussion and to be amongst people who are more like those who used to populate CiF, it is better to go to The Telegraph or The Independent.
Strangely, scanning through the comments on The Telegraph recently regarding the state of the economy and George Osborne's handling of it, I didn't spot anyone who thought the government was doing well or who wanted to bash the poor and sick or who blamed immigrants or Johnny Foreigners.
Like some kind of filthy fucked-up siphon, CiF just seems to keep sucking up the dregs and expelling the decent people.
However, given many of the writers and certainly some of the editors and commissioners, this is more inevitable than surprising.
Embarrassingly, they still think they are living in their heyday, with nothing but vistas of bigger and better spread out in sunshine before them.
@MsChin
ReplyDeleteThey're only as good as the information they get. Did you or your sis report that incident (sounds terrifying for her by the way, hope she's OK) to the FO, travel agent etc?
You live in Brighton don't you Jay, or at least you frequent it often. Will you be going to see the new Brighton Rock adaptation or as I have dubbed it, Eastbourne Rock, owing to the fact that a large chunk of it was filmed there to replicate 1960s Brighton (the book itself is originally set in the 30s). I was visiting my dad a while back and they had dressed the pier up as the Palace pier. I've read the book and I enjoyed it, and do I will probably go and watch this film.
ReplyDeleteMsChin/Jay
ReplyDeleteI’ve always wondered that about some posters on CiF.
They profess to hating the state and wish to see it diminished in the name of socio economic freedom. They then want the state to use excessive state intervention in the form of violence to stop people legitimately protesting against the consequences of anti-statist “economic freedoms”.
This in turn creates the necessary conditions for further excessive state measures (supported by those who hate the state) to prohibit intensified protest against the entity (The State) which the anti-statist posters profess to not wanting in the first place.
Have I go that right?
They're only as good as the information they get.
ReplyDeleteYes, the BBC World Affairs Editor, John Simpson, was apparently strongly advised to stay in his hotel room for his own safety. Perhaps he disobeyed.
However, war reports in the past have been filed from hotel bars, with rumour, hearsay and gossip simply dressed up as fact by adding a little colour and detail - along with the reporter's own prejudices and personal propaganda memes.
Jon Snow tells the story of an American reporter arriving by helicopter at the edges of a conflict in South America somewhere.
Snow spoke to him to see if he could help and the reporter said something like:
"No, thanks, it's OK. We have been given the story to broadcast by Washington. We are just here to get some background shots for tonight's news."
Hadnt heard about it tbh, Nap, so probably not. The Palace Pier was recklessly renamed "Brighton Pier". Totally pointless. It was the Palace Pier and should have stayed that way, god knows why they thought they'd just rename one of the City's biggest landmarks, useless morons.
ReplyDeleteEastbourne? The very name sends shivers down the spine...
Duke - makes no sense whatsoever, completely baffling. People are really cheering on police brutality against citizens protesting against a programme that has the most wafer thin legitimacy. People get the governments they deserve, I spose.
Brilliant article here from Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
ReplyDeleteJust a quick comment for Chekhov who seems to be hard of reading:
ReplyDeleteI never called you a neocon, because I have never seen you write anything 'neocon'. I expressed my surprise at your attempt to be (apparently) PeterBracken and NapK in relation to international politics. Leni got it right in her reading. Hope this clears things up.
@Atomboy:
ReplyDelete”...However, war reports in the past have been filed from hotel bars, with rumour, hearsay and gossip simply dressed up as fact by adding a little colour and detail - along with the reporter's own prejudices and personal propaganda memes...”
Funny and true. I well remember us squiring some dozy "Young Fogey-ish" twat from the Telegraph round our sector in Bosnia in the mid-90s, he was enormously impressed with the organisation and the saluting, “now, which way are the enemy?” Err, “the enemy”...? Through the binocs, I helpfully pointed out to him the contingent busy digging in, in a small village a couple of kms to the south east over the MND line, and warned him to exercise caution because, as we could see them, so them us... as he went pale and ducked behind the Landrover, he clearly didn’t realise they were French, though.
I got a bit of a telling off for that later, he’d filed some guff about “coming face to face with the enemy in X”...
Anyway, it’s often only later that the “full picture” emerges. Being at the sharp end of a riot, or stuck head-down in a ditch while someone’s slinging bullets your way, isn’t normally conducive to clear thinking or reportage.
Atomboy,
ReplyDeleteAnother good example is the claims of crowd anti-semitism against Aaron Porter in Manchester at the weekend.
The crowd chanting “Aaron Porter we know you, you’re a fucking Tory too” was reported as fact in the Daily Mail and Sky News as the crowd chanting “Tory Jew scum”. Despite there being no evidence that this was the chant.
Neither the BBC, Reuters or PA reported anti-semitic abuse whilst the Mail, Telegraph and Sky News focused on the "anti semitism" of the crowd.
The legitimate anger of students at Porter’s piss poor leadership has now been channeled into “loony left anti-semitic students” narrative.
How convenient both for Porter and the pro Govt media.
"... A London banker dies in poverty and so his local pub decides to raise funds for his funeral. One day a man walks into the pub and is asked to donate 20p for the fund. "What's it for?" he asks, and the landlord tells him. So he reaches into his pocket, hands him a £5 note and says, "Here, go and bury 25 of them...."
ReplyDeleteI liked that one.
My deepest sympathy to those that have to have a regular encounter with the drudge of emptying/changing pee bags. It's a fag.
But it's a fine sunny day in Yorks so I'm away to try out the latest velcro strap to leg model on a walk with Mungo.
"Police use CS spray on tax protesters"........the thought has occurred to me that the latest model I'm trying out might be the answer to kettleing. ......I'd love to see hundreds of full catheter bags flying plodwards as they kettled old/infirm protesters.......bastards.
"How convenient both for Porter and the pro Govt media."
ReplyDeleteThanks for that Duke I did wonder - you saved me a dig around.
"... full catheter bags flying plodwards..."
ReplyDeleteThe emptying tap/mechanism is just about the right size to take a small 'banger' type firework to assist the dispersal as it arrives.....
as he went pale and ducked behind the Landrover, he clearly didn’t realise they were French, though.
ReplyDeleteNice one Swifty.
@13th Duke:
ReplyDeleteI was happy in my own small way just to be doing my bit to destroy the reputation of “war” reporters, sah.
“Where are the enemy...?”, for fuck's sake.
mschin thanks for the link to that video.
ReplyDeleteJay OMG that picture is awful! - harmless eh like those rubber bullets in NI were supposed to be harmless1
That pic also a reminder that so called 'democratic regimes 'are just as capable of treating its protesting citizens like sh*t.
Bitters*
ReplyDeleteenough with the vicarious voices and pretensions about you living your life and anyone that doesn't get it is a smug cunt - what a cop out - enjoy Nick Cave
*UT gang(avert your sensitive gaze, I like the guy - we have a history going back to DriveByAbuser times but occasionally he talks through his arse and I have to call him on it)
.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant article here from Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
.
ReplyDeleteThere's a brilliant article here from
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
@Anne:
ReplyDeletePlastic (or the earlier rubber) baton rounds weren't ever designed to be "harmless". They were designed to incapacitate in a "non lethal" way.
The modern ones (like the L5A7 and its replacement, the L21A1) do (although there are certainly reservations about the energy these projectiles can pick up as a result of close-to-firer ricochet, something the training in their use is supposed to take account of). The older ones sometimes certainly didn't. But no one ever seriously called them "harmless".
There’d be no point using them if they were.
.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant article here from Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-sexism-is-wrong-but-are-we-women-our-own-worst-enemy-2199039.html
LATEST: David Cameron is prepared to impose 'guillotine' measure in House of Lords to save referendum on electoral reform. More details soon ...
ReplyDeleteFrom (hold the) front page of The Graun. Obviously he's getting desperate.
Olching
ReplyDelete"I expressed my surprise at your attempt to be (apparently) PeterBracken and NapK in relation to international politics."
Oh for goodness sake.
Jay
I've read Brighton Rock and I enjoyed, so I will be looking out for the film, even if a lot of it is filmed in Eastbourne. The location is just detail, they obviously couldn't use Brighton cos the place has changed a lot.
Hey, parallaxview, arse-talk is indeed one of my talents, especially after a long evening "relaxing", but WTF do you refer specifically ? And "Enjoy" Nick Cave FFS - similar to "enjoy ringworm" ?
ReplyDeleteSwifty
ReplyDeleteRe: events in Egypt & Sharm in particular. I'm sure the British govt & the travel agencies are well aware of what's going on. It's pretty hard to ignore reports of the miltary moving into Sharm, with tanks & troops deployed on the ground and planes / choppers flying over the area; plus Sky News reporting that Mubarak is at his holiday home there.
Agree with you about rubber bullets though, don't recall them ever being considered harmless. Interesting insight from you into war reporters!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the big picture this is only a minor victory but any victory by small people over a voracious plutocrat is worth celebrating....
ReplyDeleteTrump lifts threat of eviction at resort site"
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@MsChin:
ReplyDeletePoint taken. Hope your sister's OK, it's a scary thing, no matter who you are, getting up caught up in stuff like that.
And yes, I don't have an enormous amount of respect for the general run of "war" reporters, as a rule. Although there are some good ones out there, as always.
parallax
ReplyDeletebut occasionally he talks through his arse and I have to call him on it
Don't we all!
MsC
All still quiet at Dahab and Masbat according to the old man.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJust following Barry Glendenning's transfer deadline blog. Apparently only image rights and salary to be trashed out to complete Torres' move to Chelsea. Which would be cool. And Newcastle have rejected £30m offer from Liverpool for Andy Carroll. Which is fucking stupid.
ReplyDeleteThanks Sheff.
ReplyDeleteSplitter.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSwifty
ReplyDeleteThe worst reporters I've met were the ones who flew in to Khartoum during the famine in the 80s - stayed at the Hilton, stuffed their faces from the eat as much as you like buffet...did a quick whizz round the camps and flew out the following day with their pictures of starving, anguished mothers holding their dead babies. Bloodsuckers the lot of them!
Swifty
ReplyDeleteCheers - text messages get through but they take several hours. I'm now concerned that with other countries evacuating, it's going to be a bit mad at the airport - assuming she can catch her flight today.
sheff
That's great news and very encouraging.
.
ReplyDeleteClearly not - so how come twenty or so times trying to post this has drawn twenty blanks?
Brilliant article here from
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
Rhetorical question!
BTH
ReplyDeleteWell I'm pretty certain that it's none of us, so it must be occidental interference.
What's up? You were posting ok the other day but since I haven't seen you then, assumed you were travelling again.
Is it the Chinese censors who have withdrawn my posting privileges here?
ReplyDeleteWell it's not any of us bitey. Have you been spam binned?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYes sheff, BTH was spam binned. I've released them all so BTH can delete the duplicated ones as he sees fit.
ReplyDeleteApologies, BTH, but it happens to others including me.
"Is it the Chinese censors who have withdrawn my posting privileges here?"
ReplyDeleteIf only...
Mysterious to say the least - tried the Yasmin Alibhai-Brown article both with and without the embedded link but to no avail.
ReplyDeleteIf it was spammed there's an awful lot of them in there.
And now I see they've all come up so I'll delete all but the last.
Just seen a post from cellarman over in the IntenseDebate thingy - says he's been banned from CiF. If you're reading, cellarman, please join in on the usual thread.
ReplyDeleteBTH
ReplyDeleteJust released another one 4 U ; )
Point taken swifty but they weren't even non lethal were they?
ReplyDeleteAs to water cannon I think some of the idiots on Cif think being on the receiving end of them is like have a hose played on you in the garden!
High pressure water is dangerous end of.
@Anne:
ReplyDelete"...but they weren't even non lethal were they?"
Indeed not, as I said. I'll tell you, I've actually seen a "live" plastic round snap someone's shin in two. And it's not a long stretch from that to understand that if you fired one at someone's face from ten metres away, you'd kill them. No doubt.
"...High pressure water is dangerous end of..."
Very true.
Thank you Ms Chin.
ReplyDeleteNow you couldn't do anything about my disappeared dustbin?
Arf - you need a cure for ringworm - bring it on
ReplyDeleteNot sure BW, you talk of others' predicaments, or play others' representations of your sentiments but somehow self-effacingly side-step your own voice (talent) - I reckon that there's a layer to you that's beyond vicarious stories, 'smug cunt' pronouncements and video links. So that's where it's coming from and I'm not asking you to change - because that's who I've always known you to be - but, c'mon - Nick Cave - I mean really are you off the planet? Your credibility is plummeting - even in Leamington Spa
Water cannon - the street cleaning weapon of choice.
ReplyDeleteWould water cannon here be operated by police or do we need to create another private enterprise with unlimited job opportunities?
I understand that some fire engines in London are 'owned' by private company and rented out to local brigades.
This country is as insane and uncaring as as any dictatorship - this will be amply demonstrated if protests really start to scare the elite.
Cameron calling for .no violence against unarmed civilians.
ReplyDeleteAfter all such a thing wouldn't happen in the uk...
Hang on...
UK Ambassador 'The Govt(Egypt) should 'reach out' to the people. They should resign!
The UK and US govts have consistently supported this guy for 30 years!
If this revolution succeeds they will all be shitting themselves because the Egyptian people will not take them seriously why should they?
As with so many other things nationally and internationally that they should have done years ago - A bit late now.
this will be amply demonstrated if protests really start to scare the elite.
ReplyDeleteI wish the British people would show half the balls of the Egyptians. But I suppose we've all been seduced by the gods of consumerism.
If it came to it do you you think our army would be as restrained? I don't think so. And I can guarantee the plods would crack heads with abandon.
Anne
ReplyDeleteLooks like the Egyptian economy is tanking - so lots of anxiety about investments. all this sudden concern for social justice for the Egyptian people is so much bullshit - they've never been interested in it before - just in their strategic and economic interests.
Blair on Al jazeera talking about the 'will of the people' - The will of the people?? How very dare he!! He really has no shame.
ReplyDeleteSheff
ReplyDeleteOf course it is concern for economy - lots invested in Egypt.
Israeli stockmarket sank yesterday - haven't looked yet to see if it recovering.
$$ are always more important than people.
@Sheff:
ReplyDelete"...If it came to it do you you think our army would be as restrained?"
Reports are now suggesting the Egyptian Army's "restraint" is starting to wear a bit thin - there's talk of artillery rounds being fired into the air in Alexandria.
Although if that were literally true, of course, there'd be 100s more dead to add to the growing list.
BTH
ReplyDeleteI can see your dustbin not sure why you can't ..
About 3 years ago a friend of mine from village went to Egypt. S was not politicised beyond demonstrating against mine closures in the 80s.
ReplyDeleteBeing a typical Welsh grandmother she asked the woman who was their guide about her family - how many children etc. They got to talking. The guide told her that she was very poorly paid and that none of the money from the tourists went to help the people adding that if she were discovered talking in this way she would lose her job. She was supposed to create image of happy and prosperous Egyptian people.
S came back with a strongly developing urge to understand the world.
I have been thinking about that tour guide - bet she was on the streets.
Tourism alone is 5% of Egyptian GDP and loads of the less well off depend upon it with their little stalls and shops. Long queues for bread and basics in Cairo this morning, which are in short supply as shops have been shut and not stocked up.
ReplyDelete@Sheff
ReplyDeleteA guessing game; here are two US political commentators on the Egyptian crisis. 10 points each for naming them.
Statement A: "We cannot deliver democracy to the Arab states, but we can make our principles and our policies clear. Now is the time to say that the peoples of the Middle East are not “beyond the reach of liberty” and that we will assist any peaceful effort to achieve it – and oppose and condemn efforts to suppress it.
Such a statement would not elevate our ideals at the expense of our interests. It turns out, as those demonstrators are telling us, that supporting freedom is the best policy of all."
Statement B: "With so much at stake, it is a mistake to be sitting on the sidelines. Western governments can be a positive force on behalf of genuine freedom and against attempts to impose a new kind of tyranny of the Islamist variety. But we can’t do that if we are seen as propping up a hated tyrant, or worse, encouraging the kind of bloody crackdown that could at best produce an artificial “stability” for a relatively short period of time. The possibility of a bad outcome is very real, particularly because we did nothing to encourage more evolutionary change earlier, but I believe we have a better chance of a good outcome if we support positive change than if we support the status quo."
Sheff
ReplyDeleteBlair is a good starting point for a discussion around natural justice.
parallaxview - I can take a compliment; quite simply, it's time mate. I have a day job usually with pretty limited scope for all this, in the evenings I do other work with my bands, or am out and about, and also have me girlfriend who has serious contraints on her time, so when she's around this game takes a back seat. Hence the restriction to late night anecdode and the occasional polemic. When its late, I want to play music because that's my thing; and I'm usually doing it after a night out. Hence the exacerbated innanity, which I freely admit to enjoying thoroughly.
ReplyDeleteTo do this shit properly I'd want the whole day/evening clear, otherwise points aren't made well, nor responded to, and the whole thing feels a bit pointless. But thanks for asking. Others seem to manage; f@ck knows how !
PS Cave has done some good stuff, just playing with ya ;-)
Swifty
ReplyDeleteThis all hangs on which way the army go. If the most senior officers decide to stick with the status quo - can they rely on ordinary conscripts to fire on the people. I'm thinking they can't and I'm sure they know that. So are we looking at serious horse trading between Mubaraks lot and ElBaradei? Or do you think the regime will try something on before the big day tomorrow - general strike etc?
PeterJ
ReplyDeleteI don't know who they are but I'd bet my last sixpence that whoever they are, they've never shown an iota of interest in freedom and justice for the Egyptian people before this insurrection exploded into life.
@Sheff:
ReplyDeleteThey’re not all "ordinary conscripts". There’s a cadre of professional soldiers runs down the spine of the Egyptian Army, and some formations are entirely “professional” (e.g. their Republican Guard).
Your wider point stands, though – Mubarrak will need to be engaged in some seriously fancy talking to keep the military onside. If he fails, he goes down, and the Armed Forces take over.
If what’s apparently happening in Alexandria is any guide, he may be winning the argument. But as we all know, you can win a battle and still lose a war – so time will tell.
Personally, I think he’s fucked. Interim government backed by the Army (overtly or tacitly, doesn’t really matter) is the obvious next step, elections to follow “somewhen” once the dust has settled. They’ll have to be sharp about it though, because the groundswell of protest has gone well beyond something a couple of concessions and some vague words will placate.
@Sheff
ReplyDeleteYou're almost certainly right. It's just interesting that these two are at least saying the right things, unlike tossers like John Bolton and Rick Santorum.
For the record: A is Elliott Abrams and B is Paul Wolfowitz.
Bitters - yep time, I know, fucking thief that it is. Hope your friends in the thick of it are ok - I feel as though I'm interrupting the pundits of the cause - but of course we are simply in the best of all-that-can-be-broadcast stadium seats watching a game played out elsewhere. Support of course is important - but let's not imagine that we're there suffering for the cause.
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear we're on the same page with Nick so hey shoot me down
Nice little video from Daily News Egypt which demonstrates a regaining of pride that is emerging and strengthening the will to continue.
ReplyDeleteA New Spirit of National Pride
Swifty
Aye - should have remembered the Republican Guard - 'cos they'll be Mubaraks down to the last man - but they can't do it on their own and I don't think they have the rest of the army with them.
I think you're right, that stubborn old bastard Mubarak's had it and there will have to be talks with ElBaradei and the opposition groups - lets hope sooner rather than later. He won't like sitting down with the Muslim Brotherhood at all.
A concern here is how much the opposition groups will be prepared to compromise and what external players ie US/UK/Israel/Europe etc are up to in terms of influencing the outcome. And what do any of them know about governance? What about the massive bureaurocracy and all the petty officials who could make life very difficult. So many questions - and so few answers.
PeterJ
Wolfowitz?? Wolfowitz!!....that devious, shifty creep - he's the last person you'd want meddling in something like this.
I've been on the receiving end in SA, albeit a few years (~cough~decades~cough~) ago, and the technology to shoot lots of water, under pressure, very fast may have moved on! It bloody hurts loads, the picture made me wince.
ReplyDelete£35 million for Andy Carroll.
ReplyDeleteJesus Christ.
parallaxview
ReplyDeleteNot to put too finer point on it, I do visit him out there and am aware of the levels of corruption and depravation Mubarak has happily foisted on people for decades - to the point where last couple of times I was there, and I was getting pretty angry with it all. Out of this same chaotic madness that passes for a 21st century socio-economy my pal - a psychiatrist who works with some very deprived people, occasionally receives death threats from people with vested interest in mantaining this anti-human chaos.. My anger and disappointment with that regime is real enough, and it is as real as my hope that some form of better society can come out of all this, is sincere. It's no more "vicarious" in this sense than anyone else's disgust at poor people being treated abysmally - and while being realistic about their potential to make things better, hoping them all the best. Do you think this is just tourism ?
Support of course is important - but let's not imagine that we're there suffering for the cause.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think we're doing that parallax? Support and solidarity is all we can offer - in the hope that the Egyptian people will be aware that millions around the world are behind them in their bid for liberty and social justice. Plus as Bitters says some of us have mates there, know the country a bit and love it.
Who's Andy Carroll and why is someone paying 35m for him? I guess this has something to do with footie?
ReplyDeleteBW - no I don't think that's tourism - and really that's not where my comments were coming from.
ReplyDeleteAs I said earlier I hope your friends are well, and keep well, in the chronic conditions and unstable state of Egypt.
I was messing about with our shallowness indulging in late night video links hence the NC connection - it was a joint piss-take mate.
sheff
ReplyDeleteYep, at £35m a pop, it must be footie. Makes me incandescent, all this high paid footballer / must-buy merchandising crap. Can't stand football these days.
Sorry Duke & other footie fans on here - I know you all love the game, but I wither ever time it comes up for discussion.
pv - ok, got it... you want to hear my mate's voice outside his clinic at 3 in the morning armed with an iron bar. He's really smart but basically a fucking medic and couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. I guess some of that panic rubs off somewhere ! Catch ya later.
ReplyDelete"Liverpool agree to buy Andy Carroll for the price of ten Andy Carrolls "
ReplyDeleteTim
ReplyDeleteYep, I imagine water cannon does hurt when you're on the receiving end. I've only played with fire hoses and they bloody well hurt too - the pressure is very high. This was years ago and quite legitimate, btw, lest anyone thinks I was guilty of some sort of drunken misbehaviour - we were raising funds with the fire service, for charity.
A little background on the 'distinguished' Mr Suleiman.
ReplyDeleteThe Torture Career of Egypt’s New Vice President: Omar Suleiman
sheff
ReplyDeleteSuch a nice chap Mr Suleiman.
My sister is now checking in at the airport, so all's well. So far anyway!
Afternoon all
ReplyDeleteSheff
Were would we be without your linkies. Even more apathetic.
I forgot to mention that we had a slight earthquake the day before yesterday. 4.8 Richter epicentre 40 miles away. Our top-floor apartment swayed a bit, but there was no damage
Happy landings for your sister & Co. MsChin!
ReplyDeleteBy The Associated Press
ReplyDeleteIsraeli officials say they have agreed to allow Egypt to move several hundred troops into the Sinai Peninsula for the first time since the countries signed a peace treaty three decades ago.
Under the 1979 peace treaty, Israel returned the captured Sinai to Egypt. In return, Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized.
With street protests threatening the Egyptian regime, the unnamed officials say that Israel agreed to allow the Egyptian army to move two battalions, about 800 soldiers, into Sinai. The officials say the troops moved into the Sharm el-Sheikh area on Sinai's southern tip, far from Israel, on Sunday.
As the unrest in Egypt has spread, Israeli officials have grown increasingly concerned about the stability of their southern neighbor. They are especially worried that Palestinian militants could take advantage of the unrest to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip through tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border.
Above from print edition of Haaretz.
Things are changing very quickly. Is this a move towards crack down. ?
A thought on above.
ReplyDeleteIf/when Mubarak falls will Israel still allow troops in Sinai or will they insist on previous agreement being honoured ?
All sorts of confusion possible as different parties seek to maintain position or change them.
"Sheff
ReplyDeleteWere would we be without your linkies. Even more apathetic.
Happy landings for your sister & Co. MsChin!"
X2 to medve's
MsChin
ReplyDeleteI hope your sister arrives home soon.
Thanks for your good wishes, my friends!
ReplyDeleteAndy Carroll is something to do with football, but I'm not quite sure what. Not so much as a footballer as a tall thing that's useful occasionally. It's a bit like paying £35m for a ladder.
ReplyDeleteVideo of a very moving Egyptian voice - from outside the Embassy in London
ReplyDeleteWe are not waiting for our children to dream...
On workers 'rights':
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/31/cable-abuse-vulnerable-workers
Gee, how lucky we are.
Hi All
ReplyDeleteShiloh, Duke--Agree generally about war reporters but did read a book called 'War" by Chris Hedges in which he describes some very harrowing experiences 'in theatre'. A good, but somewhat disturbing read. He also said he can't go back to it due to anguish and nightmares.
Abrams and Wolfowitz! Those fuckers have had their filthy hands in many a foreign adventure. War criminals too.
That 35 mil. for Carroll is shocking, though he is a powerful if unfinished player. Suppose it was too good to turn down for Ashley and Toon.
MsChin--Best to your sister from me too. Must be quite worrying.
Currently Andy Carroll is crocked, suffering from a thigh injury he allegedly picked up falling off a bar stool in a casino. I'm guessing that's what they're referring to when they talk about him being "an old fashioned centre forward".
ReplyDeleteMsC
ReplyDeleteHope your sister and her man get home ok. Just had text from the old man in Masbat. Apparently they now have one soldier manning a checkpoint usually manned by the plods. Its sill quiet and everyone is ignoring the curfew. All in rather good humour.
MsChin
ReplyDeleteYes, from the link to the Department for Business Innovation and Skills:
The Employer's Charter
Find out what you can and can't do when managing your staff, domestic servants and slaves you own or are trading
For employment law to be effective there needs to be a balance between protecting employees and enabling businesses to operate effectively in order to support economic growth.
Advice and guidance on employment law often focuses on the rights of employees and what employers have to do to comply with their responsibilities. This focus can leave some businesses feeling they have lots of responsibilities but no rights, the balance is all in the favour of the employee, and being afraid to take on and effectively manage their staff.
The Employer's Charter aims to dismiss some of the myths about what employers can and can't do in managing their workforce. It tells you what you are reasonably entitled to ask and know about your employees, and what action you can take if there are problems.
The Employer's Charter - (Also available as a PDF) (PDF, 44 Kb)
As an employer - as long as you act fairly and reasonably - you are entitled to:
ask an employee to take their annual leave at a time that suits your business
contact a woman on maternity leave and ask when she plans to return
make an employee redundant if your business takes a downward turn
ask an employee to take a pay cut
withhold pay from an employee when they are on strike
ask an employee whether they would be willing to opt-out from the 48 hour limit in the Working Time Regulations
reject an employee’s request to work flexibly if you have a legitimate business reason
talk to your employees about their performance and how they can improve
dismiss an employee for poor performance
stop providing work to an agency worker (as long as they are not employed by you)
ask an employee about their future career plans, including retirement
shoot or otherwise maim or kill an employee owned by you who is found attempting to escape
nail or otherwise affix the ear or tongue or other body parts of an employee to their workstation or other suitable object if they are found to be working too slowly
kidnap and ransom relatives of an employee who is underperforming
chain employees to the floor or wall and feed on dog-food for a period not to exceed one week in order to improve productivity
relocate business to the Congo and imprison employees and use as slave labour for a period not to exceed thirty-five years or until dead
This is intended to help employers understand what they can do in general. Of course, individual circumstances may vary and employers should act in accordance with their legal obligations.
However, in order to promote growth in the UK economy and ensure that employees never again stand on their hind legs and imagine they have rights or power, we will seek to ensure that the courts never again find in favour of a filthy employee over their magnificent masters.
Boudi
ReplyDeleteThanks!
sheff
Glad to hear that it's still quiet round where the old fella is staying.
Atoms
LOL, but with the caveat that it may become reality ...
BBC1 news is interesting they're saying things like 'the Egyptian revolution' and "after 5000 years of having no say in their future" Seems like the tone is changing.
ReplyDeleteI don't know who they are but I'd bet my last sixpence that whoever they are, they've never shown an iota of interest in freedom and justice for the Egyptian people before this insurrection exploded into life.
ReplyDeleteQuite right, sheffpixie, and in that respect they're exactly like you and everybody else here. But suddenly you take the moral high ground. Perhaps you simply forgot to express your 'iota of interest' for the Egyptian people in your last two thousand comments on UT.
luke
ReplyDeleteBest to speak of that which you know. I have connections with Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east about which i care and just because I don't parade them on the UT doesn't mean I don't feel strongly about them. So why don't you just check your facts before you sound off or preferably stfu.
MsChin - safe journey home to your sister and her man.
ReplyDeleteThanks, thauma.
ReplyDeleteHank
What's up? Are you joining us for the march on 26 March?
sheffpixie, to edit you comment:
ReplyDeletebest to speak of that which you know. The writers have connections with Egypt and elsewhere in the middle east about which they care and just because they don't parade them on the blogoshere doesn't mean they don't feel strongly about them. So why don't you just check your facts before you sound off or preferably stfu.
A simple google will identify the writers PeterJ referred to, and whether you agree with them or not (I don't) you could at least make the effort - they've been writing about Egypt for years. Admittedly, what they have written is total bullshit, but they have actually written about Egypt for decades and they have an opinion, and they're not jumping on a bandwagon.
So what are you saying Luke? Because i didn't know who the quotes peterJ put up were referring to I'm somehow not allowed to speak about the issues?
ReplyDeleteWell you can fuck right off! I'll say what i like when I damn well like and the day you come on here and actually make a useful comment rather than just whining every time you appear, I'll raise a cheer with everyone else.
PS: I could have cheated and checked the quotes out but chose not to - no doubt you would have what with your googling skills.
Sheff = 'we are not waiting for our children to dream'
ReplyDelete-Typing through tears at the moment.
Thanks for posting that -
mschin
ReplyDeleteSafe journey home for your sister and her man
Evening all
ReplyDeleteI'm not normally pedantic but i was wondering why only 114 comments are showing when the thread says it contains 124 comments.For i thought those in the spam folder didn't show up in the tally until they had been retrieved.Can anyone enlighten me as to where the missing 10 comments are? Ta!
Paul
ReplyDeleteShort answer - no bloody idea, there's nowt in the spam bin. Some wierd stuff goinfg on today, BTH said he lost his dustbin too.
Cheers MsChin.And i hope your sister and her partner get home safely.And ditto for your mate, Bitterweed, if you're around.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Paul.
ReplyDeleteNot usual for me, but I've been on Facebook a lot over the last couple of days as an easy way of relaying info round the family. Someone sent this to me:
'Scroll to the bottom of your Facebook page where it says in little blue letters, "English (UK)" Click on it. When the language box pops up, click on the arrow next to "English (UK) and select "English (Pirate)." When you've stopped laughing, paste this as your status'.
Ooo arrr!
Anne
ReplyDeleteHope you've settled in at the new place. How's it going?
MsChin. Now I have done it on my facebook page and it looks ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteHope I can remember how to change it back.
You know that pirates only talk like that because Robert Newton was from Dorset?
His Long John Silver fixed the idea of Pirates having a West Country accent sprinkled with "aarghs."
Wandering aimlessly round various Anonymous sites - love the way they operate & wish I had the skills to take part. I think that while they are right about the limitations of the traditional means of protest, the events in the Middle East have proved that the traditional methods work exceptionally well in tandem with the new techological methods. Very pleased to see the Anonymous open letter on the Al Jazeera site, says a lot about solidarity across generations and cultures imho.
ReplyDeleteSpencer
ReplyDeleteSo does mine, but I think I'll leave it for a day or two as a counterbalance to all the serious stuff a lately. Presumably we can change it back again by reversing the process!
I want to turn mine into Nazis in a bad war film, English. "Vee haf ways of making you talk, Englisher pig-dog!" But there doesn't seem to be a setting for that.
ReplyDeleteThis internet thing is rubbish!
Pigeon English might be good as well, Spence. Or a Patois version -
ReplyDelete"Wh' appen, man? Nuttin' a g'wan tonight, so gonna get me some collie an chill".
re water cannons: Towards the end of the regime, they used to put purple die in the cannons, so they could easily identify us after. Hence the slogan 'The Purple Shall Govern' that cropped up in the MDM...
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, they hurt a lot. And have been known to cause injury.
This recently published book looks to be worth a read:
ReplyDelete"Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men who Stole the World, by Nicholas Shaxson, Bodley Head, RRP £14.99 316 pages"
FT review of Treasure Islands
From the author's website:
"...These escape routes transform the merely powerful into the untouchable. “Don’t tax or regulate us or we will flee offshore!” the financiers cry, and elected politicians around the world crawl on their bellies and capitulate. And so tax havens lead a global race to the bottom to offer deeper secrecy, ever laxer financial regulations, and ever more sophisticated tax loopholes. They have become the silent battering rams of financial deregulation, forcing countries to remove financial regulations, to cut taxes and restraints on the wealthy, and to shift all the risks, costs and taxes onto the backs of the rest of us. In the process democracy unravels and the offshore system pushes ever further onshore. The world’s two most important tax havens today are United States and Britain.....!
PCC You finished Golem's recent book?
Meerkat
ReplyDeleteI guess you saw this...Political views hard wired into brain
I wondered if you had a view?
At first I thought it was an early April fool story...
deano "This recently published book looks to be worth a read:
ReplyDelete"Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men who Stole the World"
Now that really should be written in Pirate English!
"....Presumably we can change it back again by reversing the process!..."
ReplyDeletefamous last words Chin
Spencer I thought that too.
ReplyDeleteEspecially when I read that the author is domiciled in Switzerland....
Cheers thaum - is paying the price (bastard thing is in till Saturday)......not one of my smartest moves. But it was fun.
ReplyDeleteOne day I'll take the cautionary note on the medicines more seriously ...........
I really have promised to grow up eventually but that fucking procrastination keeps getting in the damn way!
Deano - can't say I've managed to grow up at all myself.
ReplyDeleteTake care of yourself because Mungo and Miss Heidi need you!
Meerkat not exactly crystal clear communications from me tonight....."I wondered if you had a view?"
ReplyDeleteI simply intended to enquire if you had seen reports of the claimed research and had taken an initial view on the possibilities.
I thought that it might be possible to resurrect the Labour Party if it was true and we could insist on DNA samples from prospective Parliamentary candidates.
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=hp_sauce&
ReplyDeletehttp://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2011/01/forests-fire-sales-and-mark-to-market.html#comments
Petition---
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/save-our-forests
Above links from Frog - all worth reading.
Save our Forests.
Richard Thompson opened his show the other night with this tune about bankers.
ReplyDeleteAudio quality is poor and the vid doesn't have the fantastic band he was playing with (although RT doesn't need a band to be brilliant).
But it's a good song.
Loving the pirate thing. Recently re-activated my FB because it was the only way I could get in touch with one friend. I think I'll keep it this way.
ReplyDeleteGod, the audience in that clip look like corpses nailed to the seats.
ReplyDeleteHere's another version with the band.
ReplyDelete"can't say I've managed to grow up at all myself"
ReplyDeleteMe neither, thauma & deano, and I don't plan to.
Montana
Glad you like it, oo arrr ooo arrr!
Evening all
ReplyDeleteJust a drive-by - again. Didn't get in til 8 and I've been working ever since. Hope all is well, and thanks for all the stuff about what is going on in Egypt - so much better to be able to pick up on things in here and get something vaguely resembling the full skinny instead of the tendentious crap that is flying left, right and centre.
Hugs to all. Hopefully sometime this week I might have time to hang around and be sociable!
xx
Montana
ReplyDeleteHope Joe is A1 again?
If you have a spare minute can you drop James an email and tell him several UT's have enquired of his well being of late and we hope all is well with him.?
Don't want to burden you with UT secretary role on top of all your work for us ....but the recent problems down Brazil way may hopefully soften the request...
Regards.
"....Millions of people have a queasy feeling that something is not right in the global economy – but they struggle to put their fingers on what exactly the problem is. Treasure Islands at last tells the real story of where it all went wrong. This is the great untold story of globalisation.
ReplyDeleteTax havens are not exotic, murky sideshows at the fringes of the world economy: they lie at its centre. Half of world trade flows, at least on paper, through tax havens. Every multinational corporation uses them routinely. The biggest users of tax havens by far are not terrorists, spivs, celebrities or Mafiosi – but banks.
Tax havens are the ultimate source of strength for our global elites. Just as European nobles once consolidated their unaccountable powers in fortified castles, to better subjugate and extract tribute from the surrounding peasantry, so financial capital has coalesced in their modern equivalent today: the tax havens. In these fortified nodes of secret, unaccountable political and economic power, financial and criminal interests have come together to capture local political systems and turn the havens into their own private law-making factories, protected against outside interference by the world’s most powerful countries – most especially Britain. Treasure Islands will, for the first time, show the blood and guts of just how they do it......."
This really is a style of writing that I like....I've ordered the book
Seconding deano's request for an email to James, if Montana or anyone else has his email addy. Kinda missing him. Hope he's ok.
ReplyDeleteAnd if jen's still lurking out there - Hi!
And while we're doing a roll call of the missing, where the fuck has monkeyfish got to?
Well its NN from me, folks.
ReplyDeleteNight Chin
ReplyDeletechekhov
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about all this before.
I mentioned 'backstories' to Paul yesterday. It is in these that the nasty stuff is hidden.
Back in the Thatcher days we were all so busy opposing industry closeures and polltax that we let the big picture escape us.
It suddenly jumped out of the dark and savaged us.
Makes me wonder just what they are all upto now behind the scenes - something nasty designed to protect them and shaft us next time round.
I think James is travelling in Europe at the moment.You can see a picture of himHERE. Obviously he's the young guy in the background with the purple t-shirt but i guess people would have figured that out for themselves.
ReplyDeleteI recommend Leni's links at 21.25 above !
ReplyDeleteGolemXIv on privatisation of woodlands
In Ireland the well-known totally corrupt ex- Taesorch,Berty Ahern, ex-PM , is heading a consortium from China Switzerland and Araby to privatise 7% of the country--- the forests.
Far more important than the Gender and Identity Politics wiffling that occasionally dominates UT, waddya, and CiF.
A fine piece from Golem again!
ReplyDeleteHi Paul, Deano and Froggy
ReplyDeleteYes Golem is the man I think. He actually makes sense.
Frog - have mailed you. How is you?
I think PCC said she was reading Golem's book ...anybody else got a copy?
ReplyDeleteJust lobbing this into the mix from the NYT.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/opinion/31krugman.html?ref=opinion
The stuff on Newsnight about the demo's in Boots by UK Uncut ........is encouraging
ReplyDelete200,000 jobs created last year.......................................but only 3% were full time....
ReplyDeletedeano
ReplyDeleteMore and more people are working pt - this does not provide a living wage. Tax credits and top up benefits are increasing.
Has anyone seen latest figures for this ?
Hi Leni
ReplyDeleteHave been following events in the Middle East with interest as well as the related discussions here.I realize i don't know as much about the region as i should so have been googling when i've had the chance.
With regard to the Palestinians and related to our posts over the weekend i've been looking at the situation of the Palestinians in Jordan.And although Jordan is one of the more stable and peaceful nations in the region there is nevertheless potential for the large Palestinian population to destabilize that.Not passing any judgements at this stage but it seems that Jordan,along with the Saudis and Egypt and some other Arab states have shall we say a complex relationship with Israel and America.Whether of course that is reflected in the views of the peoples of these states is another matter.And of course as we know the Americans have a long 'proud'record of supporting corrupt regimes which have appalling human rights records.
I,m sure i'm telling you something you already know .But quite clearly you don't have to scratch much beneath the surface to see just how complex things are in that region.
Lord Phillips, President of the Supreme Court, proclaims that he and the other senior Law Lords are just ordinary people........
ReplyDelete.....somehow they just don't sound it or come across as such
BBC4
I should add Leni that officially any Palestinian in Jordan who either acquires Jordanian citizenship or seeks to own land in that country is supposed to renounce their Palestinian citizenship.Of course whether that breaks the emotional tie to the Palestinian lands is another matter.
ReplyDeletePaul
ReplyDeleteIf we look at the P refugees and the stateless P who for various reasons are not registered as refugees they are seen as 'demographic threat' to both Jordan and Israel. They are very restricted in Lebanon with no civil rights. There is nobody mandated to speak for them or present their case for RoR.
Originally I think it was genuinely believed they would return to Israel. What were seen as temporary arrangements became permanent. The result is that there are now about 5 million of them in total.
It is doubbtful that Israel and WB has carry capacity to support them all. Nobody - including PA - is really willing to have them.
Some Gulf States have been expelling them over last 2 years. We effectively have a small nation which is completely homeless and generally unwanted.
The Jordanian king's position is shaky - the Brits created Jordan and appointed the Jordanian royal family.
Jordan is desperately poor - competes with Israel for Christian tourists etc.
The fortunes of millions are tied up in anI/P peace agreement and upon amount of land each finishes up with.
Events in Egypt are crucial here - if an anti Israeli gvt. is installed this would create serious problems. However who ever rules E they will still be aid dependent - from US.
There is quite a strong lobby in Israel to 'give' remaining WB to Jordan - just get rid of problem. Jordan has said 'No thankyou@
The same lobby wants Egypt to have Gaza - again - no thanks.
Add the fact that Jordan is responsible for Muslim holy places in J'Salem - as you say there are complications.
None of this excuses Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
Syria wants the Golan Heights back but Israel needs it as it is main catchment area for water to feed lake Galilee - the feeder lake for the Jordan. Golan is also prime arable land.
as the Israelis say - Go figure.
If you are interested in various suggestions from Israeli side look up Eiland - retired general cum Intelligence.
Leni --"Frog - have mailed you. How is you?"
ReplyDeleteAngry, my dear, but not incapacitated by it.
It is a simple historical fact that for much of the time the majority of straightforward well-intentioned honest folk happen to be governed by small-minded incompetent and often corrupt FUCKING WEASELS.
There comes a time when normal civilised discourse is not enough; they look you straight in the eyes and fuck you over. WE, being civilised , restrained, maybe a little cowardly too,fear any descent into violence, because it's not our scene.
So we have to think of ways of 'fucking right back at them'.
Unfortunately the 'white-collar criminals' of this world fear nothing more than a Jeffrey Archer term in an Open Prison, which is hardly a deterrent.
ACPO has a data base including all of you lot,and me(french RG phone-tapping from 1987 ), so why not a counter-database for the Evil Weasles?
deano3o --I distributed copies of Golem's book to UK, Australia, and a French Investment Bank in NY !
ReplyDeleteFrog2 - I'll take that as a recommend and I'll order a copy.
ReplyDeleteThe debate about the News of World Phone hacks made me smile.......what the fuck do folk think GCHQ is all about
good to see you around again
@Leni
ReplyDeleteRegarding your post about the rise in p/t employment there are now over a million part timers who want/need a full time job.I'm not an expert of the various welfare top ups that are available but i thought they were only given to people who have dependant children and possibly some people with disabilities.I wonder therefore how many households classified as 'working poor' are actually living on p/t wages without any top ups from the state?Indeed is it possible ?
@Hi dave-long time no see.Hope you're well.
Dave
ReplyDeletei have a hit list - unfortunately I wasn't built to be a hit woman.
When we came here I went to see the then head of Ec Dev. We came under W Glamorgan then - before the reorganisation to Unitary Authorities.
Behind his head was big map of his area - try as I might I couldn't find our village. Finally I stood up and walked behind him, peered at map and wrote our village name on it.
Slightly ruffled - but always polite - he grumbled into his tie. Iasked him if there was a D notice on the village - he managed to hiss at me 'Not officially'
He is number 1 on my list.
Paul rare for me to call by waddya .....I thought your informative post on the latest IB/ESA position today was a fine post.
ReplyDeletePaul
ReplyDeleteIt would be impossible to live on pt job without top ups - even for a single person.
The working poor expression hides a lot of real poverty. we have pt'seasonal work here - winter time is hard as delays in benefits when laid off leaves people without money.
many people prefer to stay unemployed rather than take these jobs and face the disruption in income.
Leni
ReplyDeletebtw thanks for your post on the middle east situation.Fcuk knows how things will unravel there.Regarding the Palestinian issue i've always supported their right to self determination and deplore the way the Israelis have behaved in Gaza,the West Bank and also in Lebanon.But could a Palestinian state consisting of both the West Bank and Gaza seperated by Israeli territory actually work?
I've have toyed with the idea of the West Bank becoming a UN protectorate-obviously with the support of the populace-until the situation can be resolved.Whereas Gaza becomes a neutral independant state-again provided it was supported by the people of Gaza and guaranteed by the relevant powers in the region.
Had a quick look at waddya deano but didn't see Pauls post.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't really understand what people were talking about.
Waddya sometimes needs a glossary of terms used and an explanation of subject matter.
Cheers deano.
ReplyDelete@Leni-So do those without dependant kids qualify for top ups from the state if they only have a p/t income coming in? Methinks i'll have to google on that one !
Leni
ReplyDelete"PaulBJ
31 January 2011 1:19PM
In four weeks time the migration to ESA (Employment Support Allowance)will begin for existing claimants of IB(Incapacity Benefit).And it is estimated that every week 10,000 sick and disabled people will be summoned by ATOS for their dreaded WCA( Work Capability Assessment).In fact the first batch to be tested will soon be receiving their ESA50 forms from the DWP which in most cases will lead to the summons from ATOS.
The government has admitted that those claimants who have been receiving disability benefits for a long time and/or get the highest rates of disability benefits will be the first to be subjected to the inhumane WCA. Forcing them off disability benefits will after all provide the biggest savings for the ConDem Government.
If the outcomes for existing claimants of IB are anything like those for those new claimants who have been tested for ESA by ATOS since October 2008 then over 50% of existing claimants are likely to be declared 'fit for work'.40% of those who appeal will have their ESA reinstated but will then be subjected to a game of cat'n' mouse by the DWP/ATOS who will call them in at regular intervals to be re tested.Plus those who do appeal will be receive a telephone call from the DWP who will attempt to dissuade them from pursuing their appeal.
Less than 10% of existing IB claimants are likely to be placed in the ESA Support Group which means they will largely be left alone by the DWP/ATOS until their regular review datesPlus there will be no time limit on their claim for ESA.However those placed in the ESA Work Group will only receive their benefits for 12 months.
The ConDem government is well aware that many of those who are either declared' fit for work' by ATOS or who exhaust their 12 month entitlement to ESA in the Work Group will not be entitlted to JSA(JobSeekers Allowance).And in most cases their genuine health problems will render them unemployable even if technically they were capable of doing some form of work.So they will be expected to simply disappear.And no doubt the tabloid press will continue promoting the lie that most of them were malingering in the first place.
The attack on the sick and disabled,started by New Labour, shames us as a nation.For they are simply being targetted for savings because they are a soft option.And i'm sure that we will soon be witnessing a growing tally of premature deaths amongst the sick and disabled as a direct consequence of the way they have been treated by the DWP and ATOS.Yet the' HEAVY GUNS' at Guardian Towers are still silent Which imo reflects very badly on those who have the power and influence to add weight to the campaign to get these dreadful ATOS medicals stopped.And will no doubt have the Founding Fathers of the Guardian spinning in their graves"
btw deano i left a message for you at the end of yesterdays thread.Dunno if you saw it but it was of a combined congratulations/commiserations nature.Hope you're feeling better .
ReplyDeleteLeni - when looking for a particular poster I find CTRL+F and then enter the name in the pop up box cuts down on the searching..??
ReplyDeleteRegards
paul , deano, I'm not much into the general back-slapping chitchat here, but it's nice to be welcomed back!
ReplyDeleteGolem's book is already almost ancient history.
Being myself knowledgeable about, and experienced with, the inticacies of Low Finance, he and I appreciated each other early on, as did the regular 80 others who recommended his comments on the CiF Bizness threads.
Some of the stuff he's published, I've already warned him (direct) not to walk under any ladders...
I saw it Paul it warmed me - thanks bro.
ReplyDeletefrog2 I always avoid ladders and think that the opposition ain't daft.
ReplyDeletePaul
ReplyDeleteOlmert's plan offered a tunnel connecting WB and Gaza - under Israel control. The gas fields of Gazan coast could certainly part fund Gaza - the amount of money required for Gazan port to reopen and develop would be enormous and would probably not be forthcoming for such a small population. WB and Gaza need a land bridge - not a small passageway.
Israel would not accept international force as they claim they would not be impartial but would favour the Palestinians.
J'Salem under original plan was to be international territory controlled by UN. Israel annexed W J'Salem and then later the E side. They are still busy removing P from E J'Salem.
Many of the houses they have demolished were built by the UN before the 67 war.
The history of this area is fairly mind blowing - a long succession of broken agreements - subject to lots of revisions. You have to read original agreements.
In the 50s, for example the water problems were already accute. There was a plan put forward to share water resources - Israel agreed but Jordan and Syria refused. They hadn't recognised Israel's rights. There is still no cross border agreement.
The result was that Israel built its own water carrier - going south from the Galilee. This means Israel now has control of water supplies. Israel also extracts from the Jordan.
The policies in the WB and Gaza are inhuman and I am left wondering how a people who suffered so much themselves can act in this way. I think we call it politics - which are inhuman.
Hello, everyone hope you're all well.
ReplyDelete(Deano, hang in there, pal!)
Paul,
"I realize i don't know as much about the region as i should so have been googling when i've had the chance."
You might want to look up "Black September" to understand the Jordanian/Palestinian relationship: King Hussein did what he had to, in order to reign in Palestinians demanding another war that Jordan couldn't win.
He did that with much violence.
Thanks for that deano - informative indeed. Worrying too.
ReplyDeletePaul,
As far as I know single people who are not disabled do not get any help.
Evening all. A very long day's work today.
ReplyDeleteAs you said, Deano, that Newsnight report on the Boots demo was encouraging. Not only that, but the police there seemed to have followed a crash course on how to look thuggish and ridiculous at the same time.
Also congrats on your news, which I saw in passing!
How's it going, Dave?
Cheers habib
ReplyDelete"frog2 I always avoid ladders and think that the opposition ain't daft."
that should have been ....assumed the opposition ain't daft .......but are Machiavellian fuckers.
I work on the assumption that 'they' can quadruple the most nasty I can think of...''and I start with their forcibly grown big toenails through the eyeball whilst super-gluing their bell ends to their.....and I seem to recall there are some nostrils..... and serious kickings in the equation.
Habib
ReplyDeleteBlack September will never be forgiven I think.
When the Kuwaitis expelled the Palestinians they were allowed to take money with them. Many were educated - Jordan was happy enough to take them. The poor and dependent they do not want.
Those Palestinians who fled Iraq when we invaded went mainly to Lebanon. They came under the care of UNHCR rather than UNWRA. UNHCR negotiated resettlement of a few thousand in US - reports suggest they are being used as cheap labour and housed in run down areas.
How the refugees contain their anger amazes me - perhaps they have given in to despair.
There are several hundred - some reports suggest several thousand- in Lebanon and elsewhere not registered as refugees - they live in makeshift shelters and rely on chrity from other refugees as they do not get even the pittance provided by UNWRA. They have no travel docs and so are stuck.
The Arab nations have to accept some responsibility for their plight.
Spike --"How's it going, Dave?"
ReplyDeleteI think I even sent you today a petition against the mothas privatising the forests, on that e-mail you rarely look at.
More like it, hope you are OK, healthwise ?
Habib
ReplyDelete63 years in refugee camps. People have been born, lived their lives and died as stateless people.
I really can't get my head round that one.
Good night friends - I look forward to picking up on the continuing UT thread tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteAs usual I've enjoyed the day's exchanges.
Spike
ReplyDeleteI saw that the police arrested a woman on charges of criminal damage for pushing leaflets under Boots' door. Interesting to see how that stands up should it come to court.
The police behaved like fools - CS gas against peaceful protestors.
Property before people - again.
Habib
ReplyDeleteNot long after Shatila and Sabra we brought two token children who had lost both legs in the massacre here and fitted them with prothetics. All very heartening but no mention of others dead or injured.
About 3 years ago there was tv fllow up on the now adult boys.
They were both walking on their hands and bottoms as no provision had been made to care for them or upgrade their legs as they grew.
The hypocrisy of the whole situation there and that of the world establishment is sickening.
Had I been in that situation I think pacifism would have been something that might have passed me by - particularly had I been in the middle generation seeing my parents past and looking ahead to my children's future.
It isn't the 'thing' to equate terrorism with national armies armed to the teeth and covered by air support - but if you are helpless, homeless and hopeless how do you either defend yourself or try to win a future ?
ReplyDeleteWhen nobody listens we scream.
"And the wind blows away our words"
ReplyDelete@Leni
ReplyDeleteThe policies in the WB and Gaza are inhuman and I am left wondering how a people who suffered so much themselves can act in this way
I agree with that.I remember when i first read about the Sabra and Shatila massacres in Lebanon in the 1980's wondering how on earth the IDF could stand back and allow that to happen given the history of the Jewish people.
I've always supported the right of Israel to exist within it's pre 1967 borders and do whatever it needs to do to protect itself.BUT i feel the long shadow of the holocaust along with the warped realities of international alliances has blinded too many people to just how barbaric the IDF are.Plus of course the ultra orthodox sectors of the Israeli political classes now wield more power which is hardening the Israeli position. towards the Palestinians.
But i should state that i've always accepted that there are two sides in this dispute as in any dispute.And whilst Israeli policies in Lebanon,Gaza and the West Bank have been totally unacceptable it is also unacceptable for either Hamas or Hezbollah to target innocent Israeli citizens when they fire rockets into Israeli territory.
@"Olching"
ReplyDelete"I expressed my surprise at your attempt to be (apparently) PeterBracken and NapK in relation to international politics. Leni got it right in her reading. Hope this clears things up."
Err well, no it doesn't. If you could clarify where and when I attempted to be (apparently) Peter Bracken and NapK in relation to international politics that might help!
Sorry to bang about this but I'm fucked if I'm going to be slandered by anyone mis-quoting me or being disingenous with their selective quotes.
Before anyone jumps on me the fact i think there are two sides doesn't mean to say that i think they are both equal.Far from it.The Palestinians are clearly in an extremely disadvantaged position.
ReplyDeleteHabib
ReplyDeleteIt would be wise for people to remember that the flight of a bullet doesn't stop when it embeds itself in the soft flesh of a child - it continues its trajectory into the future.
And referring back to my exchanges with Leni earlier the Palestinians are further undermined by the complexities of the politics of the Middle East.And are also badly treated in some Arab countries as well.Apologies if i'm repeating what's already been said.
ReplyDeletechekhov
ReplyDeleteI don't know why Olching's been snarky with you.Your intervention the other night was much appreciated and everyone who posts regularly here knows you well enough to know where you stand.
Paul + Habib
ReplyDeleteIt is my view - untested - that Palestinians driven from their homes in what is now Israel - both in 48 and 67 - may well hold Israeli citizenship.
Certainly any still there during or after Israli UDI would have been Israel citizens. After they fled of course the 'Absentee Landlords' act deprived Palestinian families of property.
I will write to UNHCR and ask them. UNHCR have to be persuaded to bring a test case on behalf of at least one family.
The uncertainty about the future, the rights of the refugees needs urgent clarification. Refugee status has been passed from one generation to another.
Do they all actually have absolute RoR or is designating them refugees simply a mechanism to allow UNWRA to provide for them while keeping them in Limbo?
If this was tested would these rights hold? If the answer is 'No' or even 'Probably not' then other solutions need to be sought - now.
@Hi Habib
ReplyDeleteI know about Black September.There are however a number of other dimensions to the problems in the Middle East that i want to learn more about.And the way i am i tend to always be thinking about solutions.And right now with one thing and another viable solutions aren't easy to put together because it's difficult to see how things may pan out. So what may appear to be a solution simply creates a different set of problems.Hope that makes sense.
Paul
ReplyDeleteThe 67 line (Green line) is not a border - it is an armistice line. Israel has no eastern border. This is why landswaps are a possibility.
The landswaps would have to be like for like. Barren desert is no good to the Palestinians.
Leiberman's suggestion that Arab villages - and people living there - near the 67 line be exchanged for settlements is clearly not acceptable. The Arab citizens are as much Israeli as all other Israelis.
I'm signing off now.It's been an intersting discussion that i hope we'll continue.
ReplyDeleteNite all
Hi Leni
ReplyDeleteJust picked up your 2.26am post.I did say pre 1967 .Not sure if that makes a difference.As i said i need to read up more about the situation in the middle east.
Nite x
NN Paul x
ReplyDelete