think i have the time right - this is complicated by a number of factors (radio 4 shedule showing in GMT, audio player in local, fr'example). my ddigibox is still insisting it's 10.10, but prior to rebooting it thought it was 13.40, so that's an improvement of sorts.
montana - thanks for reminding me that all my timezone calculations at work need checking! do all zones change at once? or do i have to check each one individually? (it's for knowing when to call and getting 'meeting' times right...)
and some lovely poetry last night - Prevert v v popular with all my french friends, and it is v accessible - simple, touching language. liked the Ferre as well - will ask the oisette for recommendations...
Though thou be for thy pedegre accompted as aincient as Saturn, in wisdom as wise as Solomon, in power as mightie as Alexander, in wealth as riche as Croessus, or for thy beauty as Flora, yet if thou be careless of religion and neglect the true sarvice of the ever living God thou arte a caytiffe most vile and miserable.
"David Cameron enjoys joshing with journalists. He also, in a previous, non-political life, worked as a media public relations expert, lobbying against, among others, the BBC. So when he tells a Brussels press conference that we're all in the cuts and freeze business together, "including – deliciously – the BBC"...
Morning all. I just realised I haven't got the obligatory bag of fun-size sweets to dish out to kids tonight so I best get down the shops.
AB - the clock went back an hour, or did you cross the international date line in the night instead?
My lad got over-zealous and carved a pumpkin a week early which then had to be thrown in the bin cos it started to rot... mmmm...nice....
We bought another one and it is just sat there looking sorry for itself, untouched. I'm not sure I can be arsed to hollow the thing out now - I might just turn it into soup.
Some years ago, when I had to get up pretty early and drive quite a way to work, Atomgirl decided to change every clock and appliance which showed the time - including my watch and the alarm - by putting them all back by an hour.
It meant that I set off at about 4:00am instead of 5:00.
The silly thing was, I knew it was wrong, mainly by the sky, but also the traffic and still just carried on.
I cannot remember about the clock in the car. I must have decided it was wrong, I suppose.
We tend to adjust what we "know" to be true to fit in with what we are being told.
After all, who would change every clock for no other reason than mischief?
Mornin all, Last day at work, am in two minds wether to go to this interview on Tues.. It'll cost about £60, and do I want the job? If I get my P45 from my seasonal job, I won't be able to return to it, as next year it'll be advertised as 'internal only', essentialy thats a big disincentive to get work over the winter...
turminder - ? - so to keep your current job, you have to stay 'employed' by them but (presuming) unwaged over the winter? would you still be able to get benefits if you 'stayed on' there? that's weird. or am i missing something?
plus - for those dealing with pumpkin innards, they work well to bulk out a curry - steam / microwave in chunks, and then throw in to curry and mash them up a bit, gives a nice sweet taste and good texture to the sauce, also, ekes things out if you only have a small quantity of meat....
As for monkeyfish's comment about WADDYA and CiF, my own reasons and methods for posting there have been essentially carnivalesque in nature.
Obviously, we all do things for our own reasons and those reasons can mutate and ebb and flow.
The funny thing with WADDYA at the moment, for me, is that if anyone were to peer through the comments, who had an interest in propaganda or wondered how easy it would be to influence people and lead them astray like sheep over a cliff, would breathe a sigh of relief and promptly pop out for a pie and a pint and, afterwards, an untroubled nap.
If it has ceased to be fun, though, there is probably no point.
""for those dealing with pumpkin innards" I'll ring PeterB; he advised me to buy pork bellies, no mention of this."
Where's the Brackenator been lately anyway.. I dont know if there's been some sort of London to Paris "linen & leathers" rally, but i find myself almost missing him.
Just quickly, before I turn into the person who posts a thousand pages of nonsense from the old Chinese proverb, a couple of thoughts.
I read about an odd family, years ago, whose parents (I think) had died and the three[?] sisters and their brother inherited the property and enough investments to mean that, although they were not rich, as such, they would never have to work or worry about money.
The house was very secluded, down a dead-end private lane and they became, effectively, hermits, their only interaction with the outside world being if they accidentally bumped into the man who delivered their groceries from the local village, for which they left out cash under a stone.
The problem was, the isolation drove them increasingly batty. They were terrified of burglars and stacked empty tins in front of the windows on the inside, as a type of makeshift burglar-alarm. If you tried to get in, you would knock over the tins.
I seem to remember that their brother died and they buried him in the garden. It may have been that the shop decided it could no longer deliver the groceries and told the welfare agencies, but I think in the end, they had to be prised from their house and taken into care.
It was actually incredibly sad. They were stuck in a time warp and removed from society, but they were functioning in their own way, separate from the world and increasingly batty, potty or insane.
Philippa, my coleauge is in a worse boat, I can go down to zero hours, 'keep' my job and sign on. Last year she got her p45, to avoid heavy tax on her P/T winter jobs. This year she's been told, P45=leave the council=can't apply for internal only=can't come back for the job, despite 2 years exp, and being bloody good at it.
This is a direct result of the swinging cu(n)ts. I'd thot to go for the Lidl job, and if I hated it come back to the seasonal job in April, but if I get the p45 I'll be in exactly the same position as my work mate...
"Where's the Brackenator been lately anyway.. I dont know if there's been some sort of London to Paris "linen & leathers" rally, but i find myself almost missing him.
Which is disturbing. "
I said the exact same thing on Waddya yesterday - I miss scolding him... :o)
Dingy day here - all mist without the mellow fruitfulness. Bloody Straw up on cif but no comments allowed - have moaned on waddya about it - to no avail. Having a hack at 'ginger' (can I say that?) Straw would have cheered me up no end.
"If it has ceased to be fun, though, there is probably no point."
It's not that it isn't fun, there just a principle of diminishing returns...to get a real kick out of it any more, I'd need some opposition and frankly waddaya can't provide it. I think the problem with the thread is that all the same idiots are there all the time; you know just where to find them...time was I'd had some long-standing feuds going on but they'd only be indulged if you both happened to be on the same thread...with waddaya, you just it's there waiting, spouting the same old shit in the same old ignorant arrogant manner; it's ceased to be a challenge.
Besides I'm fuckin sick of what the CIF is up to...there is only one story at the moment: the fact that hundreds of thousands or millions of people are being cast into workless penury to satisfy the demands of various corporations or groups of corporations. There is no economic argument; everybody knows this is going to happen; everyone saw what happened last time: blighted lives, communities destroyed, misery, fucked up relationships...no one seriously denies this...not even the public sector who've repeatedly admitted they won't be stepping in to fill the gap. It's a basic moral choice: do we write off these people, destroy their lives in order to meet some economic imperative?..and I'd clearly state "No that's an appalling decision...it decreases the overall wellbeing of the nation"...now ideally, I'd like a government who saw its aim as increasing overall contentment in which case such an option would never even arise because we could look at the situation and with a bit of calculation realise it was a poor outcome.
The problem with CIF...whether it's due to their endorsement of the LibDems, political expediency or their denial of moral realism for relativistic considerations, they find themselves unable to come out and say: "that is undeniably the wrong thing to do". They've hamstrung themselves by never being able to make a definite moral choice on any matter whatsoever. (I must admit, I’ve been reading the new Sam Harris book lately, the moral landscape..which, basically aims to show that there are certain moral choices which we should be confident in labelling “right” or “wrong”...he’s fairly convincing in a number of areas.)
So we have for instance the interminable niqab debate. Now most people asked in abstract "Is it right to make women wear this thing?" would answer no. They might consider whether the women concerned are happy to wear it, whether overall it improves the lot of women, whether it improves family relationships, relationships between the sexes, whether it improves relationships between Muslims and the rest of society and the vast majority of people would confidently say "no...enforced wearing of the niqab is wrong"...but not CIF...CIF will wheel out a well-educated middle-class Muslim woman who wears a niqab for (often fucked-up) ideological reasons and waxes lyrically about the 'freedom' (sic) it affords them, the spiritual comfort whatever...and asserts "You can't say for certain that all women wearing a niqab are forced into it"...which is true..we can't say that for certain.
But what I think we can say for certain is that most people won't make a clear cut statement because they think they'd be revealing their own cultural bias rather than their own moral choice...all their instincts point one way but there's a little warning bell that goes off...which tells them "moral decisions are never black and white" or "someone's gonna call me an islamophobe"..so they cop out.
But they're wrong. Some moral decisions are clear cut...the relative benefits between two courses of action can often be clearly assessed beforehand and the correct answer chosen...there are moral rights and wrongs... a commitment to moral relativism or worries about unknowable, unforeseen and unintended consequences and a diminished confidence in our own ability to rationalise objectively have led us to a situation where, in the face of a wholesale government assault on the well-being of its own people, the 'World's leading Liberal Voice' doesn't lead the charge as, deep-down, it knows it should..instead, it presents us with Julian Glover..and defends it on grounds of the "diversity of opinion". Now a real and full-time commitment to the "diversity of opinion" means intellectual sclerosis...you simply can't function..you can't ever assert a statement with any degree of confidence. The Guardian doesn't do this...it makes assertions and reveals biases all the time over all sorts of topics..but what it always keeps in its armoury is this "get out of jail free card" which allows it to blithely state whenever it is being disingenuous: "we have to accommodate a wide range of opinions"..."Obviously, things like that are never clear cut"...now aside from the obvious point that they haven’t exactly bent over backwards to accommodate my own ‘divergent’ opinions, I’m just fuckin sick of this sort of lazy cheapskate logical opportunism. If they want to be relativists then fair enough...it would make for a particularly dull and inconsequential set of articles...but they would have to do it everywhere..on all topics..which they patently don’t... they have clearly done over the cuts (which to me are about as black and white as you could wish for) so why not over feminist topics, religion and the rest where half the time having a divergent view gets you deleted. Why isn’t Jim Davidson given an ATL spot on feminism?...he’s arguably as representative or indeed unrepresentative of a body of (degenerate) opinion as young Fatima the feisty graduate niqab wearer. ..Well of course that’s because his opinions and the Guardian’s are anathema...so they’ve clearly made a clear-cut moral choice on this matter...don’t employ the sexist nut-case as an article by him won’t benefit anybody. Which in turn means they have made a moral choice over the cuts: ie “We are not going to condemn them outright because we are not sure they are a bad thing”...which to me means they lose any credibility in thinking themselves ‘liberal’. It shouldn’t concern them that other people are in favour..or can’t agree...that’s not because it’s a moral decision and you can’t ever make a definitive moral statement...that’s because people can never agree about anything; even well established scientific principles. Why would we think there anything specially inconclusive about moral questions when the same applies in every other field. Most people asked out of the blue whether the rate of passage of time increases or decreases as they speed up would look at you like a fuckin idiot...but the answer’s been a well-established scientific “fact” for nearly 100 years...or who was Jack the Ripper?...or in total, “how many spiders were swallowed by people in their sleep in the UK last night?”...all these questions have simple answers; two numerical and one name...the fact that the answer is hard to ascertain does not mean there isn’t an answer in principle...so with most moral considerations...there are answers they just take a bit of thought and an abandonment of all ‘fashionable’ isms which might get kudos on CIF but in effect just hamper thought. ------------------------------------------------
hope that clears things up re. Me and CIF...mainly it's just got too easy because they got rid of all the decent posters who could put up an argument...it's just full of empty ciphers these days
turm best wishes with the interview/decision to go or not/winter months etc.
Hope that whatever you decide you can continue to keep posting on UT from time to time.
Take a time out on the booze - the liver has fantastic recuperative properties, but not if you leave it too late. I ain't had a wet since Miss Diesel left - four months now. You kinda get used to it, but you do become a bit boring....but then, the anticipation of the next three day (might even make it a five day) thrash brings it's own reward. Nothing quite like a spectacular fall from the wagon.
Leni I second Paul and hope you are well.
A42 Glad to read that you finally landed! The next UT get together is at thuma's Leamington Spa next weekend, final details TBA.
The concept of ‘tolerance’ is relevant - people shy away from taking a clear moral stand because that might be construed as intolerant and offensive to someone who doesn’t hold the same view. If individual self-determination is held to be the supreme value, then that’s somehow been extended into the right to not have your views challenged forcefully. You are now entitled to take offense if someone categorically tells you you are wrong on something, because they are trampling on your right to hold whatever views you like, and to be reassured that they are valid.
Yes, I would have to go along with everything there, which is a coherent argument against the wobbly, Lego and Play-Doh! integrity if CiF, which can be squashed and manipulated into any shape anyone wants it to be.
Strangely, someone said recently over there that The Daily Mail is not an opinion-former, it simply panders to those who have already decided to be racist or whatever and raise their levels of hysteria, which is probably true.
It makes you wonder what CiF sees as its function - but it probably has no idea and no intention of questioning itself too deeply.
It's probably whatever the WADDYA gang say on any particular day.
I certainly had no misconceptions of the media being in the vanguard of questioning the status quo or speaking truth to power or using their staff to investigate or campaign for the people en masse a long time beofre posting on CiF.
For a brief time, I thought that people commenting might make other people think and reflect, but people generally have pretty entrenched ideas, which they do not like to see assailed in any way.
For all the constant talk that it is the news media comment site ne plus ultra, I do not think that it really makes an iota of difference, for all the writings and comments ATL and BTL.
Like all media outlets, it tends to be a plaything for the editors and their family and friends and the courtiers and acolytes and sycophants who congregate in their glowing spheres of influence, ricocheting and clumping together.
For me, the fact that inconvenient comments which were at variance with the way the moderators interpreted the ideological line of the site were so happily and brazenly deleted always meant that the site had lost all credibility, all integrity and was just a place to idle away a bit of time and certainly not to be taken seriously.
Matt Seaton did quite a good job of wrecking it.
No doubt Natalie Hanman will be able to finally wreck it completely.
You are not wrong MF. I simply don't bother posting anymore on CiF or even reading through hundreds of gibberish posts. There are some gems in there but to find them is too much like hard work most of the time.
While I am here, a brief business report that encapsulates it all:
Staff at SSL International fear for jobs as Reckitt swallows up condom maker.
Jokey headline that makes light of the fact that there will be 'savings'.
Reckitt, led by Britain's highest-paid corporate chief, Bart Becht, is expected to assume ownership of SSL on Monday, and intends to make cuts in sales, IT, marketing, human resources and finance, as it seeks £100m in annual savings by 2012.
Becht, who earned £93m last year, wants to....
So, Becht earns 93,000,000UKP per year wants 100,000,000 savings from cuts. So it is OK for him to be paid to the same order of magnitude as the cuts that will creat misery for many ordinary people but then he needs that 93 million does he not?
I am sure we have all experienced this trick of applying for your own job. At one place I worked the real plan was to get rid of 2 individuals, so they made all 6 of us redundant and tailored the job specs to exclude those who were undesirables. As it happened I was not one of the 2 and was offered a job but at a lower rate. It took me no time at all to reject that offer and subsequently I was out of work for many months but did not regret the decision. Some workplaces are just so dire nothing can compensate.
and possibly some other stuff and Atomgirrl has whizzed together some delicious soup from the pumpkin intestines.
So, that's now soup, bread (waiting to go in the oven), cakes and pie and an eviscerated pumpkin Zorro-slashed with a design and a candle bunged into its empty maw.
Oh, I was also handed a flat, rectangular Jaffa cake thingy, labelled "lemon and slime".
Hard to think that life could get any better, really.
"If individual self-determination is held to be the supreme value"
but not if "overall well-being" replaces it as the supreme value...as it used to..certainly for the 'old' left..."individual self-determination" may be a fine liberal principle but it ushers in identity and 'single-issue' politics together with a fetishisation of "consumer"-choice which-since we seem to have been recast as consumers or customers in almost every sphere of our existence-leaves us in a moral field stripped of everything but rampant individualism...cooperation and solidarity become just quaint old notions from a mythical golden era instead of the only conceivable hope we have...this is not position anybody who meaningfully and honestly describes themselves as 'liberal' should have any part in.
You're right...but I don't accept "individual self-determination" as a desirable ethic...if I were a capitalist or libertarian, I might think differently, but I'm not and neither...at least as far as I'm concerned should be the 'World's Leading Liberal Voice'
"...then that’s somehow been extended into the right to not have your views challenged forcefully. You are now entitled to take offense if someone categorically tells you you are wrong on something, because they are trampling on your right to hold whatever views you like, and to be reassured that they are valid."
yeah..this is true...but if I truly believe myself to be right then I have to accept that others are wrong...I'm cool with that...and their offence...I'm happy to give offence...it's essential, not to say desirable and inevitable once you do away with "individual self-determination"...which anyway would be seen as an essentially hypothetical and elitist motif by the majority of the world's population who through circumstance, poverty and lack of opportunity lack the agency to self-determine much more than basic nutrition, shelter etc...in such a position they can only hope to effect change through collective action.
I was in a pub in Old York till 2am (nephews 40th thrash) and not a drop found it's way down me neck. I must have absorbed a dram or two by a kinda omosis.....
'noon all..... as much a you like of pumpkin grated,ol bit of courgette cut into cubes, garlic and or onion, loads of black pepper, veg stock, risotto rice, cheese grated on the top= pumpkin risotto.......gawd sounds like the recipe exchanges on wdyya.....
we seem to have been recast as consumers or customers in almost every sphere of our existence-leaves us in a moral field stripped of everything but rampant individualism
Agreed. But it’s a question of balance - if you go too far in subsuming the individual good into the collective, then you run up against the reality that large portions (the majority?) of the population still only want to better their own lot and don’t give a shit about the next man. The result is, you get rampant black markets and disobedience, which then requires essentially a totalitarian state to keep from tipping into chaos.
A socialist state has to be all-or-nothing, because once you get a layer of society bucking the system and enriching themselves, the inequality (and resentment) caused is even greater than that in capitalist societies, the Russian oligarchs being a case in point.
Globalization presents a dilemma to each state - do you accept that international markets dictate policy, or do you turn your back on markets and isolate yourselves? It’s hard to argue that the UK’s collective wellbeing would be well served by doing a North Korea, so the only choice that remains is to accept the primacy of markets and legislate around them to make things as fair and equal as possible, all things considered. So we end up with a choice between slightly more and slightly less redistributive versions of the same economic liberalism.
do away with "individual self determination"...which anyway would be seen as an essentially hypothetical and elitist motif by the majority of the world's population who through circumstance, poverty and lack of opportunity lack the agency to self-determine much more than basic nutrition, shelter etc...in such a position they can only hope to effect change through collective action.
That's very true, but then the circumstances in a developing country are very different - how you'd go about raising the general well-being in a post-industrial society of 60 million by turning away from the global markets is a conundrum, to say the least.
"It’s hard to argue that the UK’s collective wellbeing would be well served by doing a North Korea, so the only choice that remains is to accept the primacy of markets and legislate around them to make things as fair and equal as possible, all things considered. So we end up with a choice between slightly more and slightly less redistributive versions of the same economic liberalism."
I don't accept the choice is that stark: ie market logic dictating everything vs North Korea.
However even if I do accept your dichotomy and "accept the primacy of markets and legislate around them to make things as fair and equal as possible"..you must accept, re the cuts, that what is on the table is not there to make things as "equal and fair as possible"..not equal in terms of either opportunity nor outcome...it is there as a "stick" to beat people into submission and lower expectations.
Either way...to return to my main point...and even accepting your choice...these cuts remain 'morally' indefensible since they increase neither fairness nor wellbeing...this is unsurprising since they are there to satisfy economic doctrines whose aim is the increase and concentration of wealth in a small number of hands. And since I regard them as absolutely morally indefensible, I regard an 'agnostic' approach to them, such as the Guardian's to be morally indefensible too.
Just saw the secratery of state for Scotland, on a family day out. He was here a couple of months ago, in that time his hair has visibly greyed.
Had to bite my lip to keep from running out and demanding that he appologise to my colleague for placing her in the position his Govt has. At least I maintain some professionalism. Traitorous gits.
Either way...to return to my main point...and even accepting your choice...these cuts remain 'morally' indefensible since they increase neither fairness nor wellbeing
I agree with that point, there isn't a moral argument to be made for the cuts. As far as I can tell, the only attempts so far have been along the lines of 'people choose not to work, work is good in the moral sense, so we're justified in forcing the lazy to work.' It's faulty in almost every assumption.
Re: the Guardian, where we differ is that I start with zero expectations - no illusions in the first place, so no painful disillusionment. Like you, I like to spout off online, and Cif provides a good outlet for that, with no cost at all to me. That's what I'd call a good deal.
...this is unsurprising since they are there to satisfy economic doctrines whose aim is the increase and concentration of wealth in a small number of hands.
Yes, if you actually keep piling wealth into fewer and fewer hands and if you keep telling the slave-classes here and abroad that they will have to manage with less and less, won't you one day simply break the economic machine?
Isn't it a bit like running a car engine at maximum revs when the poor little lights on the dashboard are desperately trying to signal to you in dumb show that there is no water or oil and everything is getting so hot that all the racing parts are simply going to give up and melt?
It works for a while and then goes bang and phut and you are left with a useless pile of metal and a lot of black smoke.
Kids, eh!?
They just love testing to destruction whatever toy you give them.
As far as I can tell, the only attempts so far have been along the lines of 'people choose not to work, work is good in the moral sense, so we're justified in forcing the lazy to work.' It's faulty in almost every assumption.
Yes, it's funny that the moral dimension of work only ever seems to apply to the poor.
There was a programme some years ago, which showed the life of the bloke who started AutoTrader - which, oddly, was bought and then sold[?] by GMG.
He spent his days pedalling on an exercise bike, looking through a window at a car from his collection, which he occasionally asked his servant to change for another one.
He didn't seem to feel that there was anything morally wrong with this.
OK, so he could support himself and his weird obsession financially, but that is a separate issue.
The moral imperative to work came with the cult of owning a factory and making money from the labour of others.
Actually, I might build a little Toy Town-sized factory in the garden and see whether we can live off the fruits of our offsprings' labour.
Pocket money is stopped with immediate effect, naturally.
I expect Atomgirl has already given you a clip around the ear for that, so I won't bother.
Isn't it a bit like running a car engine at maximum revs when the poor little lights on the dashboard are desperately trying to signal to you in dumb show that there is no water or oil and everything is getting so hot that all the racing parts are simply going to give up and melt?
God ... brings back horrible memories of trying to get to the drinks the other night in London....
Yes, it's funny that the moral dimension of work only ever seems to apply to the poor.
I used to wonder about something similar when I was a kid - the 'do what I tell you', admonishment that came from adults, particularly when their own behaviour spectacularly ignored the sentiment.
I think that waddya post of mine was doomed from the start.Only the A...R...S...E....was supposed to be in bold.But for some reason the whole post appeared in bold so i asked the mods to delete it so i could do it again.My computer then froze so have been unable to repeat until now.Trouble is the moment has kinda been lost now so probably best to save it-or something similar-for another time.
Fantastic clip Jay - currently being ruined in my gaff as some moron has set the fire alarm off. Why do these things always happen on Sundays when all messages go to voice mail?
sheff that's my idea...! snide and arsey!! (but I've sunk, or risen maybe...,to that level in general on CiF anyway) Jacko's never gonna read the comments anyway why would he be in the least bit interested, he's got cash in his pocket afterall.......
Re: the Guardian, where we differ is that I start with zero expectations - no illusions in the first place, so no painful disillusionment.
I too am not disillusioned but statements like "Comment is free but facts are sacred" are irritating as they don't really mean what they say do they?
MF - perhaps we are falling down on what you mean by 'liberal'. To me this means exactly what you correctly say the Guardian is about - the support of what Marx called the bourgeois.
It has been thus since capitalism took power away from feudalism in the 17th century. Cromwell wanted freedom from feudal restraint on trade and the 'freedom' to exploit the newly developing proletariat. This is still the situation today and will be until the working class demand economic freedom as well as real political freedom.
The reason why most people desire wealth is because in this society this is the only way to achieve economic freedom(which is freedom from poverty and destitution or the fear of it).
What we need is a society that frees us from these fears without the necessity of achieving wealth. This is what socialism is it is based on the idea that humans are happiest when resources are shared and they co-operate. This is of course socialism not liberalism.
Let us not forget that in this society even the rich are not free from fear - fear of loss of wealth fear of criminal acts like the kidnapping of their children and the loss of their property. Class society is insane we must continue to argue for its removal and its replacement by real fairness.
A general note on the cuts, any cut in public services will be intrinsically unfair. This is because the poor are far more dependant on these services than are the rich. So to suggest that such cuts are fair is not only a lie it should insult our intelligence.
The reason for the existence of the poor is the lack of jobs, but not just of any jobs, it is crucial that these jobs are well paid, capable of supporting a reasonably comfortable life style.
The fact that some of the unemployed can get more in benefits than they can when working is not because benefits are too high - its because pay is too low.
The power to change this is in the hands of the rich not the poor. Yet the poor are consistently blamed for this.
What frustrates me is that so many eejits just can't see this - its bleedin' obvious!!!!
"MF - perhaps we are falling down on what you mean by 'liberal'."
I think the point is how the Guardian defines its Liberalism...now the 'free trade/ market values' sense might be far more appropriate in view of the paper's origins and its present stance...but they definitely mean differently...they're after the caring, egalitarian, concerned and worthy sense of the term...and they just don't qualify however far they want to try and push it
...and the way they push it is by injecting what they take to be liberal values into other areas..identity mainly...and for all I know they may be well intentioned in this...although the outcomes have been decidedly 'mixed'...but whatever the outcomes, it's not enough; it's not egalitarian; it's comfortable middle-class journalists playing at student politics and funded by the profits of Daddy's sweat shop.
"Institutions (including corporations), doctrines, figures and concepts do not need protection from insult or offense, and they cannot be given such protection without restricting freedom of expression. Since they do not need the protection, it is a bad and stupid idea to restrict freedom of expression in order to give it to them. Institutions, doctrines, figures, and concepts are just the sorts of things that people need to be able to discuss freely in order to choose among them. A doctrine that can’t be dissed is a doctrine that has way too much power."
Hello everyone; just been trying to explain the dubious ethics of "trick-or-treating" to my 8 year old! However trying I don't think I was entirely successful in how we allowed the Yanks to hi-jack an ancient Pagan festival in order to introduce a junior version of the Mafia protection racket and make a killing selling cheap tat in the supermarkets made in sweatshops in China.
Thauma -- My local ATM is a Diebold, an I think of voterigging every time I see the bloody name .
re your 19.54 -- last night --"Resources are running out and being hotly contested; this situation is only going to deteriorate. Migration is tied into resource depletion."
Completely agree. To be fair to Golem he concentrates on his particular thing at the mom, but it is well-entwined with globalisation . On resources here is a leni-link - Lester Brown on aquifers makes yer blood run cold . The Chinese Indians and sundry other entrepreneurs are buying up or leasing millions of acres of Africa to grow food becos it hasn't been completely ruined yet . I'm going to extend the veg patch next spring.
Leni on Jackstraw, may have another try at a craigmurray link:)
"Run for the underground bunkers and send for the halfwit! He might be totally quackers, but he knows how to deal with this sort of thing."
..so you reckon we go for some sort of giant vegetable defence strategy?...maybe a giant (the size of Colchester) half pumpkin shell, we can all get under...he's coming back...DUCK
BB full marks for that comment - 6:56 - on JS. The recommend seems crazy with only 3 or so. Sheff has 5!
I was going to comment on there that the idea of there being 1 (singular) 'trained' bomber is plain daft. I designed electronics for 20 odd years and putting together something of this nature is a 1/2 hour job for sure. Any fool could do it.
Are we being subjected to the 'Duck' a test of the hands off modding here?
George Osborne said in a recent speech defending the CSR that the increasing amount of money spent on Welfare by New Labour during their time in office had created a 'client state' and one which 'we can no longer afford'.
Osborne and the right wing press have constantly banged on about the amount of welfare spending giving the erroneous impression that it is out of control under a free spending New Labour Govt.
However, one look at this graph shows a rather different story.
As can be seen welfare spending as a percentage of GDP has dropped/remained static during Labour's time in office.
In 1997 when the Tories were booted out, welfare spending was 7.76% of GDP. In 2010, with New Labour out (and in the midst of recession and high unemployment) welfare spending is at 7.26% of GDP.
Or in other words, lower than at any time between 1979-97, the Major and Thatcher years.
I thought I would be modded for mentionong the RICIN PLOT even ! FuckinEll. I just put up Craig's latest, this 6.34 PM at his site .
"Oct31, 2010 I Decide To Join the Establishment
Somebody posted two parcel bombs. Grave threat to western civilisation. Our basic principles are at stake. They hate our freedoms. Biggest threat since World War 2. Islam incompatible with democracy. Yemen is the new Afghanistan. Eternal vigilance needed. More tanks required at airports. Fighter plane escort for passenger planes is a rational answer to parcel bombs. NATO may need to invade Somalia. Torture in Saudi Arabia vindicated by this tip off. Israel is our stoutest ally.
interesting isn't it how figures and perceptions are manipulated to suit. Across europe and the world there is a concerted effort to diminish the involvement of the state in health, education services and public administration very Friedmanesque...yet people in general seem to accept it as a crisis measure the fact is it will never be restored it's over, this is what people don't seem to have grasped yet, the limited concern that there is seems to be focussed on the here now not the future....
absolutely. The resistance to the right wing narrative has been pathetic.Statistics like the one I highlighted above are so easy to find and undermine the 'cuts are essential' bullshit yet there's no wholesale expose of the lies or any organised resistance against it.
Anyway, had a very heavy weekend with a couple of mates over from Glasgow (Heineken have to make an emergency delivery of beer to Leiden tomorrow- there's none left) and that wildduck is giving me a headache trying to read the posts inbetween so I bid you all goodnight.
Got a big tin of confit in my garage that I am saving for christmas. Will use the fat off them to cook rissoled potatoes with, and do a nice big salad on the side.
And a glass of Sauternes or its cheaper but just-as-delish little sister St Croix du Mont to go with it.
(actually the idea of that just made me be a little bit sick in my throat - does anybody else remember those disgusting spam fritters you used to get for school dinners, sitting cold and throbbing in a pool of fat on the plate? Ugghghghghghghghghg)
Duke "yet there's no wholesale expose of the lies or any organised resistance against it"
hate to be cynical but no mainstream political party is interested in exposing it because they follow the same policies, maybe dressed up in a different way with different terminology and spinning, but nonetheless the same....new labour=thatcherite economics=condems= screwing us all well and truely
"This post has been removed by a blog administrator."
Err... a vote by UT bloggers is not equivalent to being "modded" which is what Half wit is attempting to imply and by association make the cretinous assumption that all blogs must be moderated.
Quack away as much as you like, you are just making an even bigger tit of yourself than you did the last time you took a dump on here.
puerile doesn't even begin.........Oh sod it I'm not wasting any more time.
BB spam fritters....yuk but I did eat them......well you do when you 10 don't you ....i feel my liver's just about to explode....but I loved sausage fritters from the local chippie....gags....
My Alf Garnett Tory dad is even beginning to see the light. We were having a chat about it this afternoon and where I would normally have expected to either have him take the piss out of me or at the very least tell me I was being stupid, he was just nodding thoughtfully and agreeing.
Then he said "good job I'm already retired"... and I was thinking "good job you've got your work pension, because a lot of retired folk are not going to be as lucky as you."
Montana -- thanks for looking in the spamfolder last night, but my lost post was my slightly flailing right hand ( one reminder of stroke ) which wanders on the keyboard , even when sober, which I was not hehe:) On the deleting, We're not ezzackly giving the moron a bullet in the back of the neck ...
BB - you must be nearly as ol as me if you remember spam fritters . 1947 v 1953 I think. Playing on bombsites in SE London, and those prefab houses actually looked quite cosy .
Not a particular fan of Gandhi for various reasons but this ain't a bad quote sums up really what's happening now.......
"An armed conflict between nations horrifies us. But the economic war is no better than an armed conflict. This is like a surgical operation. An economic war is prolonged torture. And its ravages are no less terrible than those depicted in the literature on war properly so-called. We think nothing of the other because we are used to its deadly effects.The movement against war is sound. I pray for its success.
But I cannot help the gnawing fear that the movement will fail, if it does not touch the root of all evil– man's greed."
I'll have you know Spam fritters are still popular in parts of West Yorkshire- especially for breakfast, wrapped in a teacake (aka a breadcake in South Yorkshire / a barm cake in Lancashire).
MF - re posting on waddya...It's like shooting fish in a barrel, only to find an hour later that your gun licence has been revoked and the little fishies are still frolicking in the Sea of Oblivion.
Ally thinks that I'm being melodramatic for suggesting that waddya should be axed. Not sure why. If Cif wants to be taken seriously as a politics site, it needs to get a new editorial team who actually understand that the world has moved on in the last couple of years and that there are more important things to be debated than what is suggested by the teacher's pets over there.
The problem with waddya is that it's dominated by vacuous clock-watchers who spend their working days air-kissing each other because they haven't got enough friends on Facebook.
That problem is compounded by the fact that the Cif editorial staff is made up of well-connected middle-class nonentities who haven't got an opinion worth the name, so think that they're earning their money if they get to swap banalities with their waddya fanboys.
Cif simply has no credibility in the current era of austerity because the Tories are reverting to their default position of waging class war under the middle class banner, and the Guardian's opposition to that war is fatally undermined by the fact that, for all their waffle about social mobility, the daughter of the Guardian's editor got a job because she's the daughter of the Guardian editor.
Belligerent, Ally? Maybe. I just think it would be hypocritical, as a socialist and an egalitarian, to play nice with Bella.
As for your other friends on Waddya who I might have offended, they couldn't have been more offended than I was when some of them were cheerleading the coalition back in May.
Ignorance is no defence. If they don't understand politics, it would be better for the general level of debate if they fucked off and posted on X Factor blogs.
BB's old but not that old..... :P)!!!! spam fritters were on the school dinner's menus well into the 70s....until thatcher decided they weren't a legal requirement....how about frog spawn.....tapioca and semolina with chernobyl jam.....bleedin horrid muck........
I don't think I could face them any more. Brings back too many bad memories of cold, greasy disgusting things in a pool of oil, and slimy grey mash potatoes and bullets disguised as peas...
We all understand about the Tea Party now, Montana. The Observer ran a big piece today written by Andrew Neil, who's made a career out of sacking printworkers and lauding neo-liberal politics at the behest of his employer, Rupert Murdoch.
Chekhov - oh, Halfwit's shown up, has he? Well well, there's a big surprise.
Well I was under the impression it was "half wit"...of course it could have been the other half...maybe they could get together and give the "Full Wit!"
Interesting posts from you.It was always a myth in the 80,s that Thatcherite policies in this country and what was called Reaganomics in the States reduced the amount of GDP consumed by the State.In fact they had the opposite effect in both countries -although there were redistributions in State spending such as increases in expenditure on security and in this country increased expenditure on mortgage interest relief of up to 30% to encourage home ownership.
IMO things haven't really changed and i suspect that any short term savings from the ConDem cuts will be more than matched by the increase in State spending needed to clear up the mess that will be a direct consequence of those cuts.
I had two duck breasts for 75p oot the local super mkt (v. reduced section) Cooked both and ate the first with roast taters. (Kerrs pinks, for the legume loving canard) The second I planned to have with a ramen soup. Prepped some carrot and broccoli, garlic and spices. Sliced the duck and put a pan of water on. Went to the cupboard, nae noodles! Had some spaghetti, used that. It was one of those happy accidents, if any thing it was nicer than the thin, instant noodles! Well thats my contrib to the recipe thread we seem to have become. Looking forward to MIE's latest round of one liners, the opera reviews and Giyus. I blame Hank, "Waddya must be destroyed", we become waddya....
@Duke, @Gandalfo, My view is that I do not expect any political party to point out the truth about the cuts but what I do expect is for journalists to publish that truth. We know who the masters are for most of the press, we know who has a say in SKY but the Guardian has no puppet master does it? Channel 4 news and Dispatches have been good in most respects but strangely lacking AFAIK on this topic.
What bothered me about the BBC when the Kelly story broke was the way they capitulated, rolled over and accepted the blame for what in essence was a true story. Then to add insult to injury they ask the opinion of propaganda master in chief Alastair Campbell.
Sorry, ranted on too long here but there is a gap and only on this kind of site do I find out the facts.
I see that BB has been 'disappeared' around 8.15pm on Jackstraw . I'm quite pleased that my link to craigmurray is still there, but a bugger I can't do clickable links at the G . The nice thing about any craig article on Straw is that he's been calling him a fucking liar for quite a few years now , every time the name comes up. And CarterFuck and Schillings have had no effect on him over the Uzbekistan dictatorship either . Just tells them to fuck off.
If only Mr Scorpio, if only, I suspect that is what barry the scunthorpe trucker subsists on, and the fashion jewelry,Italian princes and opera is all his repressed homosexuality...
Btw Paul, duck is delicious, and the thing (with pankakes and duck sauce) that broke my vegetarianism, 20m years ago.
NN all, got to be up early the 16 y.o cat has gone missing, doesn't bode well...
Bloody hell, gandolfo! You were in the year above my sister.
I had Mrs Killick for physics though. Except I was so crap at it that I was kicked out at the end of the 3rd year. She completely the humiliation by calling me up in front of the class in my last lesson and saying:
"Right. I am going to show you how to wire a plug. Because I never want it to be said that someone can be in my class for three years and not learn anything at all..."
I was at Collyer's for a year before dropping out, man....
Probably not Hank, just that It'll annoy them ; ) EH (if it is they) what a tube... I'll vote nay moderation, let the gibberish stand. Don't give them the satisfaction of being able to say, 'OOh the UT censored me!, what hypocrits...' Leave the wankers jiz on the wall, for all to see. Right, am off this time. atb p x
Ian "but what I do expect is for journalists to publish that truth."
in fact that's exactly what the Guardian isn't doing.....why? it sells with sensationalism not raw facts and realities...a nice bomb threat is more clicks and more sales Ms smith not getting through her ATOS check isn't something that links us as one it's far to boring and not adrenalin boosting....oh and it doesn't affect the average graun reader who doesn't give a toss----they want to get on that BA flight to Pisa fuck the workers rights to strike because they are losing jobs, pay, conditions, they want a "cheap" trendy bag from Miu Miu but conveniently forget that it is made in a country which causes workers to lose jobs and rights here and £30 quid price difference is really more important that rights in China.....blah blah---
I was enjoying it yesterday. He is so full of shite, and I was at home and bored.
If he leaves me alone, all well and good. I won't say a dickey bird to him
But....
If he wants to keep taking me on that's fine by me. I'm over being freaked out by him now and just enjoy pointing and laughing.
Besides which he posted such utter shite yesterday - which I did a "Bitey" with - that he has lost any feminist credential he might once have believed himself to have had...
Miss Whitehead PE bloody hell running up denne hill killed me as did swimming in the unheated outdoor pool in march.....Miss Gledhill's....lime green coat...couple of hippy teachers though....for english and classics....
your sis would have been in my younger sister's year.......spooky..........
I'm an idiot. You "fell back" last night. I'm only 5-6 hours behind you for a week.
ReplyDeleteBugger. Forgot about time change, got up an hour too early!
ReplyDeleteNice work on the Ferré, Spike.
think i have the time right - this is complicated by a number of factors (radio 4 shedule showing in GMT, audio player in local, fr'example). my ddigibox is still insisting it's 10.10, but prior to rebooting it thought it was 13.40, so that's an improvement of sorts.
ReplyDeletemontana - thanks for reminding me that all my timezone calculations at work need checking! do all zones change at once? or do i have to check each one individually? (it's for knowing when to call and getting 'meeting' times right...)
anyway - HAPPY HALLOWE'EN EVERYBODY!!!!!!
and some lovely poetry last night - Prevert v v popular with all my french friends, and it is v accessible - simple, touching language. liked the Ferre as well - will ask the oisette for recommendations...
ReplyDeleteThough thou be for thy
ReplyDeletepedegre accompted as aincient
as Saturn, in wisdom as wise as
Solomon, in power as mightie as
Alexander, in wealth as riche
as Croessus, or for thy beauty
as Flora, yet if thou be careless
of religion and neglect the
true sarvice of the ever living
God thou arte a caytiffe
most vile and miserable.
Pinch, punch, first of the month - and no return!
ReplyDeleteearly?
ReplyDeleteIts the 31st, Atom, you excitable scamp, keep your powder dry!
ReplyDelete"David Cameron enjoys joshing with journalists. He also, in a previous, non-political life, worked as a media public relations expert, lobbying against, among others, the BBC. So when he tells a Brussels press conference that we're all in the cuts and freeze business together, "including – deliciously – the BBC"...
ReplyDeleteMeerkat mazes!!
ReplyDeleteMorning all. I just realised I haven't got the obligatory bag of fun-size sweets to dish out to kids tonight so I best get down the shops.
AB - the clock went back an hour, or did you cross the international date line in the night instead?
My lad got over-zealous and carved a pumpkin a week early which then had to be thrown in the bin cos it started to rot... mmmm...nice....
We bought another one and it is just sat there looking sorry for itself, untouched. I'm not sure I can be arsed to hollow the thing out now - I might just turn it into soup.
Oh, sorry, have I jumped the gun?
ReplyDeleteSome years ago, when I had to get up pretty early and drive quite a way to work, Atomgirl decided to change every clock and appliance which showed the time - including my watch and the alarm - by putting them all back by an hour.
It meant that I set off at about 4:00am instead of 5:00.
The silly thing was, I knew it was wrong, mainly by the sky, but also the traffic and still just carried on.
I cannot remember about the clock in the car. I must have decided it was wrong, I suppose.
We tend to adjust what we "know" to be true to fit in with what we are being told.
After all, who would change every clock for no other reason than mischief?
BB
ReplyDeleteI haven't eaten any of it yet, but I think Atomgirl has used the pumpkin innards for soup and a pumpkin pie and will be making bread with it later.
There is still a big bag of the flesh in the freezer for use at another time.
Mornin all, Last day at work, am in two minds wether to go to this interview on Tues.. It'll cost about £60, and do I want the job? If I get my P45 from my seasonal job, I won't be able to return to it, as next year it'll be advertised as 'internal only', essentialy thats a big disincentive to get work over the winter...
ReplyDeleteI also got up an hour early ; ( arse.
turminder - ? - so to keep your current job, you have to stay 'employed' by them but (presuming) unwaged over the winter? would you still be able to get benefits if you 'stayed on' there? that's weird. or am i missing something?
ReplyDeleteplus - for those dealing with pumpkin innards, they work well to bulk out a curry - steam / microwave in chunks, and then throw in to curry and mash them up a bit, gives a nice sweet taste and good texture to the sauce, also, ekes things out if you only have a small quantity of meat....
ReplyDelete"for those dealing with pumpkin innards"
ReplyDeleteI'll ring PeterB; he advised me to buy pork bellies, no mention of this.
"It'll cost about £60"
ReplyDeleteNo pay expenses ???
Thauma & Spike - lovely poetry last night.
ReplyDeleteYes, shaz, worth going back to later.
ReplyDeleteAs for monkeyfish's comment about WADDYA and CiF, my own reasons and methods for posting there have been essentially carnivalesque in nature.
Obviously, we all do things for our own reasons and those reasons can mutate and ebb and flow.
The funny thing with WADDYA at the moment, for me, is that if anyone were to peer through the comments, who had an interest in propaganda or wondered how easy it would be to influence people and lead them astray like sheep over a cliff, would breathe a sigh of relief and promptly pop out for a pie and a pint and, afterwards, an untroubled nap.
If it has ceased to be fun, though, there is probably no point.
""for those dealing with pumpkin innards"
ReplyDeleteI'll ring PeterB; he advised me to buy pork bellies, no mention of this."
Where's the Brackenator been lately anyway.. I dont know if there's been some sort of London to Paris "linen & leathers" rally, but i find myself almost missing him.
Which is disturbing.
Just quickly, before I turn into the person who posts a thousand pages of nonsense from the old Chinese proverb, a couple of thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI read about an odd family, years ago, whose parents (I think) had died and the three[?] sisters and their brother inherited the property and enough investments to mean that, although they were not rich, as such, they would never have to work or worry about money.
The house was very secluded, down a dead-end private lane and they became, effectively, hermits, their only interaction with the outside world being if they accidentally bumped into the man who delivered their groceries from the local village, for which they left out cash under a stone.
The problem was, the isolation drove them increasingly batty. They were terrified of burglars and stacked empty tins in front of the windows on the inside, as a type of makeshift burglar-alarm. If you tried to get in, you would knock over the tins.
I seem to remember that their brother died and they buried him in the garden. It may have been that the shop decided it could no longer deliver the groceries and told the welfare agencies, but I think in the end, they had to be prised from their house and taken into care.
It was actually incredibly sad. They were stuck in a time warp and removed from society, but they were functioning in their own way, separate from the world and increasingly batty, potty or insane.
It was a bit like the Collyer brothers, who were quite famously "odd" - see some pictures here.
For some reason, these cases remind me of WADDYA.
Philippa, my coleauge is in a worse boat, I can go down to zero hours, 'keep' my job and sign on. Last year she got her p45, to avoid heavy tax on her P/T winter jobs. This year she's been told, P45=leave the council=can't apply for internal only=can't come back for the job, despite 2 years exp, and being bloody good at it.
ReplyDeleteThis is a direct result of the swinging cu(n)ts. I'd thot to go for the Lidl job, and if I hated it come back to the seasonal job in April, but if I get the p45 I'll be in exactly the same position as my work mate...
JayReilly
ReplyDeleteI think it was more ambitious, alas.
He entered the London to Dakar Rally with Mark Thatcher as navigator.
Speaking Franglais!
Jay
ReplyDelete"Where's the Brackenator been lately anyway.. I dont know if there's been some sort of London to Paris "linen & leathers" rally, but i find myself almost missing him.
Which is disturbing. "
I said the exact same thing on Waddya yesterday - I miss scolding him... :o)
Don't think they'll pay exps BW.. Some horror stories about lidl as employer, esp for Mgt.. 24 hr on call, 60+hr weeks...
ReplyDeleteMorning all
ReplyDeleteDingy day here - all mist without the mellow fruitfulness. Bloody Straw up on cif but no comments allowed - have moaned on waddya about it - to no avail. Having a hack at 'ginger' (can I say that?) Straw would have cheered me up no end.
AB
ReplyDelete"For some reason, these cases remind me of WADDYA. "
Words fail me mate. Stunning.
Hermits & basket cases...
ReplyDeleteAye BW, I'd be a fool not to go to the interview at least, and they may not give me the job...
Here's Kunt and The Gang
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/kuntandthegang
"If it has ceased to be fun, though, there is probably no point."
ReplyDeleteIt's not that it isn't fun, there just a principle of diminishing returns...to get a real kick out of it any more, I'd need some opposition and frankly waddaya can't provide it. I think the problem with the thread is that all the same idiots are there all the time; you know just where to find them...time was I'd had some long-standing feuds going on but they'd only be indulged if you both happened to be on the same thread...with waddaya, you just it's there waiting, spouting the same old shit in the same old ignorant arrogant manner; it's ceased to be a challenge.
Besides I'm fuckin sick of what the CIF is up to...there is only one story at the moment: the fact that hundreds of thousands or millions of people are being cast into workless penury to satisfy the demands of various corporations or groups of corporations. There is no economic argument; everybody knows this is going to happen; everyone saw what happened last time: blighted lives, communities destroyed, misery, fucked up relationships...no one seriously denies this...not even the public sector who've repeatedly admitted they won't be stepping in to fill the gap. It's a basic moral choice: do we write off these people, destroy their lives in order to meet some economic imperative?..and I'd clearly state "No that's an appalling decision...it decreases the overall wellbeing of the nation"...now ideally, I'd like a government who saw its aim as increasing overall contentment in which case such an option would never even arise because we could look at the situation and with a bit of calculation realise it was a poor outcome.
The problem with CIF...whether it's due to their endorsement of the LibDems, political expediency or their denial of moral realism for relativistic considerations, they find themselves unable to come out and say: "that is undeniably the wrong thing to do". They've hamstrung themselves by never being able to make a definite moral choice on any matter whatsoever. (I must admit, I’ve been reading the new Sam Harris book lately, the moral landscape..which, basically aims to show that there are certain moral choices which we should be confident in labelling “right” or “wrong”...he’s fairly convincing in a number of areas.)
So we have for instance the interminable niqab debate. Now most people asked in abstract "Is it right to make women wear this thing?" would answer no. They might consider whether the women concerned are happy to wear it, whether overall it improves the lot of women, whether it improves family relationships, relationships between the sexes, whether it improves relationships between Muslims and the rest of society and the vast majority of people would confidently say "no...enforced wearing of the niqab is wrong"...but not CIF...CIF will wheel out a well-educated middle-class Muslim woman who wears a niqab for (often fucked-up) ideological reasons and waxes lyrically about the 'freedom' (sic) it affords them, the spiritual comfort whatever...and asserts "You can't say for certain that all women wearing a niqab are forced into it"...which is true..we can't say that for certain.
But what I think we can say for certain is that most people won't make a clear cut statement because they think they'd be revealing their own cultural bias rather than their own moral choice...all their instincts point one way but there's a little warning bell that goes off...which tells them "moral decisions are never black and white" or "someone's gonna call me an islamophobe"..so they cop out.
continued
continued..
ReplyDeleteBut they're wrong. Some moral decisions are clear cut...the relative benefits between two courses of action can often be clearly assessed beforehand and the correct answer chosen...there are moral rights and wrongs... a commitment to moral relativism or worries about unknowable, unforeseen and unintended consequences and a diminished confidence in our own ability to rationalise objectively have led us to a situation where, in the face of a wholesale government assault on the well-being of its own people, the 'World's leading Liberal Voice' doesn't lead the charge as, deep-down, it knows it should..instead, it presents us with Julian Glover..and defends it on grounds of the "diversity of opinion".
Now a real and full-time commitment to the "diversity of opinion" means intellectual sclerosis...you simply can't function..you can't ever assert a statement with any degree of confidence. The Guardian doesn't do this...it makes assertions and reveals biases all the time over all sorts of topics..but what it always keeps in its armoury is this "get out of jail free card" which allows it to blithely state whenever it is being disingenuous: "we have to accommodate a wide range of opinions"..."Obviously, things like that are never clear cut"...now aside from the obvious point that they haven’t exactly bent over backwards to accommodate my own ‘divergent’ opinions, I’m just fuckin sick of this sort of lazy cheapskate logical opportunism. If they want to be relativists then fair enough...it would make for a particularly dull and inconsequential set of articles...but they would have to do it everywhere..on all topics..which they patently don’t... they have clearly done over the cuts (which to me are about as black and white as you could wish for) so why not over feminist topics, religion and the rest where half the time having a divergent view gets you deleted.
Why isn’t Jim Davidson given an ATL spot on feminism?...he’s arguably as representative or indeed unrepresentative of a body of (degenerate) opinion as young Fatima the feisty graduate niqab wearer. ..Well of course that’s because his opinions and the Guardian’s are anathema...so they’ve clearly made a clear-cut moral choice on this matter...don’t employ the sexist nut-case as an article by him won’t benefit anybody. Which in turn means they have made a moral choice over the cuts: ie “We are not going to condemn them outright because we are not sure they are a bad thing”...which to me means they lose any credibility in thinking themselves ‘liberal’.
It shouldn’t concern them that other people are in favour..or can’t agree...that’s not because it’s a moral decision and you can’t ever make a definitive moral statement...that’s because people can never agree about anything; even well established scientific principles. Why would we think there anything specially inconclusive about moral questions when the same applies in every other field. Most people asked out of the blue whether the rate of passage of time increases or decreases as they speed up would look at you like a fuckin idiot...but the answer’s been a well-established scientific “fact” for nearly 100 years...or who was Jack the Ripper?...or in total, “how many spiders were swallowed by people in their sleep in the UK last night?”...all these questions have simple answers; two numerical and one name...the fact that the answer is hard to ascertain does not mean there isn’t an answer in principle...so with most moral considerations...there are answers they just take a bit of thought and an abandonment of all ‘fashionable’ isms which might get kudos on CIF but in effect just hamper thought.
------------------------------------------------
hope that clears things up re. Me and CIF...mainly it's just got too easy because they got rid of all the decent posters who could put up an argument...it's just full of empty ciphers these days
Fine post MF well worth the time spent reading it.
ReplyDeleteMF
ReplyDeletenow aside from the obvious point that they haven’t exactly bent over backwards to accommodate my own ‘divergent’ opinions
Made me laugh, but you're right: there are only certain 'diverse' opinions that they will publish - and 'diversity' apparently comes from the right.
Diversity come from Brixton, ini', tho? ; )
ReplyDeleteturm best wishes with the interview/decision to go or not/winter months etc.
ReplyDeleteHope that whatever you decide you can continue to keep posting on UT from time to time.
Take a time out on the booze - the liver has fantastic recuperative properties, but not if you leave it too late. I ain't had a wet since Miss Diesel left - four months now. You kinda get used to it, but you do become a bit boring....but then, the anticipation of the next three day (might even make it a five day) thrash brings it's own reward. Nothing quite like a spectacular fall from the wagon.
Leni I second Paul and hope you are well.
A42 Glad to read that you finally landed! The next UT get together is at thuma's Leamington Spa next weekend, final details TBA.
@MF
ReplyDeleteThe concept of ‘tolerance’ is relevant - people shy away from taking a clear moral stand because that might be construed as intolerant and offensive to someone who doesn’t hold the same view. If individual self-determination is held to be the supreme value, then that’s somehow been extended into the right to not have your views challenged forcefully. You are now entitled to take offense if someone categorically tells you you are wrong on something, because they are trampling on your right to hold whatever views you like, and to be reassured that they are valid.
monkeyfish
ReplyDeletehope that clears things up re. Me and CIF...
Yes, I would have to go along with everything there, which is a coherent argument against the wobbly, Lego and Play-Doh! integrity if CiF, which can be squashed and manipulated into any shape anyone wants it to be.
Strangely, someone said recently over there that The Daily Mail is not an opinion-former, it simply panders to those who have already decided to be racist or whatever and raise their levels of hysteria, which is probably true.
It makes you wonder what CiF sees as its function - but it probably has no idea and no intention of questioning itself too deeply.
It's probably whatever the WADDYA gang say on any particular day.
I certainly had no misconceptions of the media being in the vanguard of questioning the status quo or speaking truth to power or using their staff to investigate or campaign for the people en masse a long time beofre posting on CiF.
For a brief time, I thought that people commenting might make other people think and reflect, but people generally have pretty entrenched ideas, which they do not like to see assailed in any way.
For all the constant talk that it is the news media comment site ne plus ultra, I do not think that it really makes an iota of difference, for all the writings and comments ATL and BTL.
Like all media outlets, it tends to be a plaything for the editors and their family and friends and the courtiers and acolytes and sycophants who congregate in their glowing spheres of influence, ricocheting and clumping together.
For me, the fact that inconvenient comments which were at variance with the way the moderators interpreted the ideological line of the site were so happily and brazenly deleted always meant that the site had lost all credibility, all integrity and was just a place to idle away a bit of time and certainly not to be taken seriously.
Matt Seaton did quite a good job of wrecking it.
No doubt Natalie Hanman will be able to finally wreck it completely.
"...and to be reassured that they are valid"
ReplyDeleteAny soul who can be so 'reassured' is a cunt.
As Kierkegaard had it .... the answers to the most interesting questions involve "a leap in the dark"
You are not wrong MF. I simply don't bother posting anymore on CiF or even reading through hundreds of gibberish posts. There are some gems in there but to find them is too much like hard work most of the time.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am here, a brief business report that encapsulates it all:
Staff at SSL International fear for jobs as Reckitt swallows up condom maker.
Jokey headline that makes light of the fact that there will be 'savings'.
Reckitt, led by Britain's highest-paid corporate chief, Bart Becht, is expected to assume ownership of SSL on Monday, and intends to make cuts in sales, IT, marketing, human resources and finance, as it seeks £100m in annual savings by 2012.
Becht, who earned £93m last year, wants to....
So, Becht earns 93,000,000UKP per year wants 100,000,000 savings from cuts. So it is OK for him to be paid to the same order of magnitude as the cuts that will creat misery for many ordinary people but then he needs that 93 million does he not?
I am sure we have all experienced this trick of applying for your own job. At one place I worked the real plan was to get rid of 2 individuals, so they made all 6 of us redundant and tailored the job specs to exclude those who were undesirables. As it happened I was not one of the 2 and was offered a job but at a lower rate. It took me no time at all to reject that offer and subsequently I was out of work for many months but did not regret the decision. Some workplaces are just so dire nothing can compensate.
A lot of hithering and thithering, along with some dithering today, but:
ReplyDeletepumpkin
carrot
squash
coconut milk
cream
oil
butter
garlic
coriander
chillies
and possibly some other stuff and Atomgirrl has whizzed together some delicious soup from the pumpkin intestines.
So, that's now soup, bread (waiting to go in the oven), cakes and pie and an eviscerated pumpkin Zorro-slashed with a design and a candle bunged into its empty maw.
Oh, I was also handed a flat, rectangular Jaffa cake thingy, labelled "lemon and slime".
Hard to think that life could get any better, really.
IanG - Reckitts (Hull) another interesting Quaker company fucked over by latter day events and attitudes.
ReplyDeleteThe Hull Bournville Reckitt's Garden Village - homes fit for workers.....
ReplyDelete"If individual self-determination is held to be the supreme value"
ReplyDeletebut not if "overall well-being" replaces it as the supreme value...as it used to..certainly for the 'old' left..."individual self-determination" may be a fine liberal principle but it ushers in identity and 'single-issue' politics together with a fetishisation of "consumer"-choice which-since we seem to have been recast as consumers or customers in almost every sphere of our existence-leaves us in a moral field stripped of everything but rampant individualism...cooperation and solidarity become just quaint old notions from a mythical golden era instead of the only conceivable hope we have...this is not position anybody who meaningfully and honestly describes themselves as 'liberal' should have any part in.
You're right...but I don't accept "individual self-determination" as a desirable ethic...if I were a capitalist or libertarian, I might think differently, but I'm not and neither...at least as far as I'm concerned should be the 'World's Leading Liberal Voice'
"...then that’s somehow been extended into the right to not have your views challenged forcefully. You are now entitled to take offense if someone categorically tells you you are wrong on something, because they are trampling on your right to hold whatever views you like, and to be reassured that they are valid."
yeah..this is true...but if I truly believe myself to be right then I have to accept that others are wrong...I'm cool with that...and their offence...I'm happy to give offence...it's essential, not to say desirable and inevitable once you do away with "individual self-determination"...which anyway would be seen as an essentially hypothetical and elitist motif by the majority of the world's population who through circumstance, poverty and lack of opportunity lack the agency to self-determine much more than basic nutrition, shelter etc...in such a position they can only hope to effect change through collective action.
.......sorry about the 'Hovis' soundtrack although I guess New World kinda figures....
ReplyDelete"If individual self-determination is held to be the supreme value".....you find yourself in a world peopled by folk who think cheating is cleaver.
ReplyDeleteYou don't get more deluded than thinking that you can cheat yourself.
Stimulating stuff MF
WTF cleaver ..clever.
ReplyDeleteI was in a pub in Old York till 2am (nephews 40th thrash) and not a drop found it's way down me neck. I must have absorbed a dram or two by a kinda omosis.....
Dog walking - regards to all.
s
ReplyDeleteAtomboy - that Atomgirl sounds very enterprising.
ReplyDeleteRoasted pumpkin seeds are nice.
'noon all.....
ReplyDeleteas much a you like of pumpkin grated,ol bit of courgette cut into cubes, garlic and or onion, loads of black pepper, veg stock, risotto rice, cheese grated on the top= pumpkin risotto.......gawd sounds like the recipe exchanges on wdyya.....
@MF
ReplyDeletewe seem to have been recast as consumers or customers in almost every sphere of our existence-leaves us in a moral field stripped of everything but rampant individualism
Agreed. But it’s a question of balance - if you go too far in subsuming the individual good into the collective, then you run up against the reality that large portions (the majority?) of the population still only want to better their own lot and don’t give a shit about the next man. The result is, you get rampant black markets and disobedience, which then requires essentially a totalitarian state to keep from tipping into chaos.
A socialist state has to be all-or-nothing, because once you get a layer of society bucking the system and enriching themselves, the inequality (and resentment) caused is even greater than that in capitalist societies, the Russian oligarchs being a case in point.
Globalization presents a dilemma to each state - do you accept that international markets dictate policy, or do you turn your back on markets and isolate yourselves? It’s hard to argue that the UK’s collective wellbeing would be well served by doing a North Korea, so the only choice that remains is to accept the primacy of markets and legislate around them to make things as fair and equal as possible, all things considered. So we end up with a choice between slightly more and slightly less redistributive versions of the same economic liberalism.
@MF
ReplyDeletedo away with "individual self determination"...which anyway would be seen as an essentially hypothetical and elitist motif by the majority of the world's population who through circumstance, poverty and lack of opportunity lack the agency to self-determine much more than basic nutrition, shelter etc...in such a position they can only hope to effect change through collective action.
That's very true, but then the circumstances in a developing country are very different - how you'd go about raising the general well-being in a post-industrial society of 60 million by turning away from the global markets is a conundrum, to say the least.
paul
ReplyDeleteyour Assistant Rules + Standards Enforcer comment has totally disappeared from wdyaa......
"It’s hard to argue that the UK’s collective wellbeing would be well served by doing a North Korea, so the only choice that remains is to accept the primacy of markets and legislate around them to make things as fair and equal as possible, all things considered. So we end up with a choice between slightly more and slightly less redistributive versions of the same economic liberalism."
ReplyDeleteI don't accept the choice is that stark: ie market logic dictating everything vs North Korea.
However even if I do accept your dichotomy and "accept the primacy of markets and legislate around them to make things as fair and equal as possible"..you must accept, re the cuts, that what is on the table is not there to make things as "equal and fair as possible"..not equal in terms of either opportunity nor outcome...it is there as a "stick" to beat people into submission and lower expectations.
Either way...to return to my main point...and even accepting your choice...these cuts remain 'morally' indefensible since they increase neither fairness nor wellbeing...this is unsurprising since they are there to satisfy economic doctrines whose aim is the increase and concentration of wealth in a small number of hands. And since I regard them as absolutely morally indefensible, I regard an 'agnostic' approach to them, such as the Guardian's to be morally indefensible too.
Just saw the secratery of state for Scotland, on a family day out. He was here a couple of months ago, in that time his hair has visibly greyed.
ReplyDeleteHad to bite my lip to keep from running out and demanding that he appologise to my colleague for placing her in the position his Govt has. At least I maintain some professionalism. Traitorous gits.
Thauma
ReplyDeleteAtomboy - that Atomgirl sounds very enterprising.
Yes, she is intelligent, practical, resourceful and capable.
Well, you know, for a girl - obviously.
@MF
ReplyDeleteEither way...to return to my main point...and even accepting your choice...these cuts remain 'morally' indefensible since they increase neither fairness nor wellbeing
I agree with that point, there isn't a moral argument to be made for the cuts. As far as I can tell, the only attempts so far have been along the lines of 'people choose not to work, work is good in the moral sense, so we're justified in forcing the lazy to work.' It's faulty in almost every assumption.
Re: the Guardian, where we differ is that I start with zero expectations - no illusions in the first place, so no painful disillusionment. Like you, I like to spout off online, and Cif provides a good outlet for that, with no cost at all to me. That's what I'd call a good deal.
...this is unsurprising since they are there to satisfy economic doctrines whose aim is the increase and concentration of wealth in a small number of hands.
ReplyDeleteYes, if you actually keep piling wealth into fewer and fewer hands and if you keep telling the slave-classes here and abroad that they will have to manage with less and less, won't you one day simply break the economic machine?
Isn't it a bit like running a car engine at maximum revs when the poor little lights on the dashboard are desperately trying to signal to you in dumb show that there is no water or oil and everything is getting so hot that all the racing parts are simply going to give up and melt?
It works for a while and then goes bang and phut and you are left with a useless pile of metal and a lot of black smoke.
Kids, eh!?
They just love testing to destruction whatever toy you give them.
As far as I can tell, the only attempts so far have been along the lines of 'people choose not to work, work is good in the moral sense, so we're justified in forcing the lazy to work.' It's faulty in almost every assumption.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's funny that the moral dimension of work only ever seems to apply to the poor.
There was a programme some years ago, which showed the life of the bloke who started AutoTrader - which, oddly, was bought and then sold[?] by GMG.
He spent his days pedalling on an exercise bike, looking through a window at a car from his collection, which he occasionally asked his servant to change for another one.
He didn't seem to feel that there was anything morally wrong with this.
OK, so he could support himself and his weird obsession financially, but that is a separate issue.
The moral imperative to work came with the cult of owning a factory and making money from the labour of others.
Actually, I might build a little Toy Town-sized factory in the garden and see whether we can live off the fruits of our offsprings' labour.
Pocket money is stopped with immediate effect, naturally.
Atomboy
ReplyDeleteWell, you know, for a girl - obviously.
I expect Atomgirl has already given you a clip around the ear for that, so I won't bother.
Isn't it a bit like running a car engine at maximum revs when the poor little lights on the dashboard are desperately trying to signal to you in dumb show that there is no water or oil and everything is getting so hot that all the racing parts are simply going to give up and melt?
God ... brings back horrible memories of trying to get to the drinks the other night in London....
Something silly to play with.
ReplyDeleteAnd something to play on it.
I have a friend who says he's done 13 seconds. Good luck.
Look at the old boy go...
ReplyDeleteYes, it's funny that the moral dimension of work only ever seems to apply to the poor.
ReplyDeleteI used to wonder about something similar when I was a kid - the 'do what I tell you', admonishment that came from adults, particularly when their own behaviour spectacularly ignored the sentiment.
Thauma
ReplyDeleteShe is not here at the moment, but I'm sure she would do exactly as you say.
Actually, we have a type of tacit agreement. I am not allowed to swear or say anything against her, unless I want to be in trouble.
She, however, can swear and call me all the names under the sun.
If I point this out to her, things can be brought back to normal by the simple remedy of my apologising for her actions.
Isn't that the way most people work?
I am not allowed to swear or say anything against her, unless I want to be in trouble.
ReplyDeleteShe, however, can swear and call me all the names under the sun.
If I point this out to her, things can be brought back to normal by the simple remedy of my apologising for her actions.
Takes me back to when my daughter was 15...
gandolfo
ReplyDeleteI think that waddya post of mine was doomed from the start.Only the A...R...S...E....was supposed to be in bold.But for some reason the whole post appeared in bold so i asked the mods to delete it so i could do it again.My computer then froze so have been unable to repeat until now.Trouble is the moment has kinda been lost now so probably best to save it-or something similar-for another time.
Fantastic clip Jay - currently being ruined in my gaff as some moron has set the fire alarm off. Why do these things always happen on Sundays when all messages go to voice mail?
ReplyDeleteAtomboy - no way am I stepping into a 'domestic'.
ReplyDeleteJay - nice one.
the Straw article is finally open for comments...
ReplyDeletethe straw diatribe is open for comment.......
ReplyDeleteThauma - no problem and no 'domestic.'
ReplyDeleteI tend not to do the arguey stuff at home.
Just picked Atomgirl up from skating/rollerblading or whatever it is, so everyone's happy.
oops didn't see you their sheff----
ReplyDeletegandolfo
ReplyDeleteI've lost the will to post on it now - apart from making snide remarks.
sheff
ReplyDeletethat's my idea...! snide and arsey!! (but I've sunk, or risen maybe...,to that level in general on CiF anyway)
Jacko's never gonna read the comments anyway why would he be in the least bit interested, he's got cash in his pocket afterall.......
Atomboy - wasn't trying to imply that there might be anything more than the usual domestic accommodations one makes, honest!
ReplyDeleteStraw would ruin the evening. Not going near it.
For some odd reason, the mister appears to have put Songs of Praise or similar shite on. Must rectify this.
Jackstraw thread
ReplyDeleteForthestate 5.26PM -- more on that here --
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/jack_straws_big.html
Some keen mod went to look and got scared of just a link to another site ? link
Vizzo:
ReplyDeleteRe: the Guardian, where we differ is that I start with zero expectations - no illusions in the first place, so no painful disillusionment.
I too am not disillusioned but statements like "Comment is free but facts are sacred" are irritating as they don't really mean what they say do they?
MF - perhaps we are falling down on what you mean by 'liberal'. To me this means exactly what you correctly say the Guardian is about - the support of what Marx called the bourgeois.
It has been thus since capitalism took power away from feudalism in the 17th century. Cromwell wanted freedom from feudal restraint on trade and the 'freedom' to exploit the newly developing proletariat. This is still the situation today and will be until the working class demand economic freedom as well as real political freedom.
The reason why most people desire wealth is because in this society this is the only way to achieve economic freedom(which is freedom from poverty and destitution or the fear of it).
What we need is a society that frees us from these fears without the necessity of achieving wealth. This is what socialism is it is based on the idea that humans are happiest when resources are shared and they co-operate. This is of course socialism not liberalism.
Let us not forget that in this society even the rich are not free from fear - fear of loss of wealth fear of criminal acts like the kidnapping of their children and the loss of their property. Class society is insane we must continue to argue for its removal and its replacement by real fairness.
A general note on the cuts, any cut in public services will be intrinsically unfair. This is because the poor are far more dependant on these services than are the rich. So to suggest that such cuts are fair is not only a lie it should insult our intelligence.
The reason for the existence of the poor is the lack of jobs, but not just of any jobs, it is crucial that these jobs are well paid, capable of supporting a reasonably comfortable life style.
The fact that some of the unemployed can get more in benefits than they can when working is not because benefits are too high - its because pay is too low.
The power to change this is in the hands of the rich not the poor. Yet the poor are consistently blamed for this.
What frustrates me is that so many eejits just can't see this - its bleedin' obvious!!!!
Anyone want to try this new break teh internetz with Google thingy? - via Atomgirl
ReplyDelete"MF - perhaps we are falling down on what you mean by 'liberal'."
ReplyDeleteI think the point is how the Guardian defines its Liberalism...now the 'free trade/ market values' sense might be far more appropriate in view of the paper's origins and its present stance...but they definitely mean differently...they're after the caring, egalitarian, concerned and worthy sense of the term...and they just don't qualify however far they want to try and push it
...and the way they push it is by injecting what they take to be liberal values into other areas..identity mainly...and for all I know they may be well intentioned in this...although the outcomes have been decidedly 'mixed'...but whatever the outcomes, it's not enough; it's not egalitarian; it's comfortable middle-class journalists playing at student politics and funded by the profits of Daddy's sweat shop.
or Mummy's sweet shop
ReplyDeleteHere's a good quote
ReplyDelete"Institutions (including corporations), doctrines, figures and concepts do not need protection from insult or offense, and they cannot be given such protection without restricting freedom of expression. Since they do not need the protection, it is a bad and stupid idea to restrict freedom of expression in order to give it to them. Institutions, doctrines, figures, and concepts are just the sorts of things that people need to be able to discuss freely in order to choose among them. A doctrine that can’t be dissed is a doctrine that has way too much power."
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/
The Googledemolition thing reminded me of this.
ReplyDeleteHello everyone; just been trying to explain the dubious ethics of "trick-or-treating" to my 8 year old!
ReplyDeleteHowever trying I don't think I was entirely successful in how we allowed the Yanks to hi-jack an ancient Pagan festival in order to introduce a junior version of the Mafia protection racket and make a killing selling cheap tat in the supermarkets made in sweatshops in China.
Good use for a duck
ReplyDeleteA little duckling seems to have lost their mummy...
ReplyDeleteIf that's one of the two or three likely suspects...which, let's face it, it is...it's gotta go down as one of his more engaging and thought provoking
ReplyDeleteMF - surprisingly articulate
ReplyDeleteYippee!
ReplyDeleteIt's montanawildgoosechase!
Probably this guy...
ReplyDeleteI,ve never eaten duck.Wonder what it tastes like?
ReplyDeletePaul
ReplyDeleteIf it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it tastes like a duck. Kinda, well, duck flavoured.
"Probably this guy..."
ReplyDeletenah...too good looking
http://mistupid.com/pictures/page034.htm
He probably wants to share his wallpaper with us
ReplyDeleteThauma -- My local ATM is a Diebold, an I think of voterigging every time I see the bloody name
ReplyDelete.
re your 19.54 -- last night --"Resources are running out and being hotly contested; this situation is only going to deteriorate. Migration is tied into resource depletion."
Completely agree. To be fair to Golem he concentrates on his particular thing at the mom, but it is well-entwined with globalisation . On resources here is a leni-link - Lester Brown on aquifers makes yer blood run cold . The Chinese Indians and sundry other entrepreneurs are buying up or leasing millions of acres of Africa to grow food becos it hasn't been completely ruined yet . I'm going to extend the veg patch next spring.
Leni on Jackstraw, may have another try at a craigmurray link:)
CYBERATTACK!
ReplyDeleteRun for the underground bunkers and send for the halfwit! He might be totally quackers, but he knows how to deal with this sort of thing.
"Run for the underground bunkers and send for the halfwit! He might be totally quackers, but he knows how to deal with this sort of thing."
ReplyDelete..so you reckon we go for some sort of giant vegetable defence strategy?...maybe a giant (the size of Colchester) half pumpkin shell, we can all get under...he's coming back...DUCK
Quack
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteYes, chaps & chapesses, it's all gone a bit quackers this evening.
ReplyDeleteShould someone have cleaned the duck house out?
Dagga, dagga, dagga..... did it work? No? Oh well.
ReplyDeleteMF
ReplyDeleteWell 'DUCK' wasn't much in the way of a considered response, was it?
Ducks can be quite annoying...
ReplyDeleteshaz
ReplyDeleteAAAGHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh!
sorry...
ReplyDeleteMsC - I don't think 'considered' is in his lexicon - it has more than one syllable.
ReplyDeleteDamn. Quack again. And I was just going to place my bet on the next conversational point being 'Egg".
ReplyDeleteEvening All
ReplyDeletewill return when migrating ducks have flown beyond the hot spot.
So much attention duckie - could quite go to our heads....
ReplyDeleteBB full marks for that comment - 6:56 - on JS. The recommend seems crazy with only 3 or so. Sheff has 5!
ReplyDeleteI was going to comment on there that the idea of there being 1 (singular) 'trained' bomber is plain daft. I designed electronics for 20 odd years and putting together something of this nature is a 1/2 hour job for sure. Any fool could do it.
Are we being subjected to the 'Duck' a test of the hands off modding here?
There’s something coming towards you! Quick, DUCK.........
ReplyDeleteI should add that Sheff's comment deserves more than 5 as well. Sorry for any unintended slight there Sheffpixie.
ReplyDeletethink montanawildduck has been smoking quack........
ReplyDeleteConfit de canard with freedom fries of course . And lashings of Bourgeuil .
ReplyDeleteAll to prove how much you need permanent resident POLICE to protect you ... or a Home Guard maybe ...
ReplyDeleteWANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKERWANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKERWANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER WANKER
ReplyDeleteSorry, I thought everyone could play, not just idiots...
ReplyDeletedave - my money's on the Women's Institute (enlarged) as defence...
ReplyDeleteIanG
ReplyDeleteThe bullshit being spouted at the moment about these bombs is just unbelievable.
Problem is, we have all heard it all before - the ricin "plot" being a case in point.
Only the terminally stupid take their schtick seriously any more.
BB
ReplyDeleteYou've got admin rights - could you reduce the load a bit. I'm quite fond of ducks, especially a la Dave's recipe but I really can't eat this many.
Quack Quack
ReplyDeleteOK - that's two "Ayes" I've had for deleting.
ReplyDeleteAs this is a democratic website, could I have a show of hands, brothers and sisters?
All those in favour say Aye, all against say Nay and abstainers say nowt for the minute and we will count the vote...
Stay vigilant, folks!
ReplyDeleteduck and cover
George Osborne said in a recent speech defending the CSR that the increasing amount of money spent on Welfare by New Labour during their time in office had created a 'client state' and one which 'we can no longer afford'.
ReplyDeleteOsborne and the right wing press have constantly banged on about the amount of welfare spending giving the erroneous impression that it is out of control under a free spending New Labour Govt.
However, one look at this graph shows a rather different story.
As can be seen welfare spending as a percentage of GDP has dropped/remained static during Labour's time in office.
In 1997 when the Tories were booted out, welfare spending was 7.76% of GDP. In 2010, with New Labour out (and in the midst of recession and high unemployment) welfare spending is at 7.26% of GDP.
Or in other words, lower than at any time between 1979-97, the Major and Thatcher years.
On principle, I think probably nay... but for conveniences' sake, maybe aye...
ReplyDeleteIt's a difficult one isn't it shaz...
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, maybe we could just prune a little so that the spirit of the message remains...
Dunno - not my call.
Methinks someone's off his head on cwack cocaine!
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, maybe we could just prune a little so that the spirit of the message remains...
ReplyDeleteI say prune........
I thought I would be modded for mentionong the RICIN PLOT even ! FuckinEll. I just put up Craig's latest, this 6.34 PM at his site .
ReplyDelete"Oct31, 2010 I Decide To Join the Establishment
Somebody posted two parcel bombs. Grave threat to western civilisation. Our basic principles are at stake. They hate our freedoms. Biggest threat since World War 2. Islam incompatible with democracy. Yemen is the new Afghanistan. Eternal vigilance needed. More tanks required at airports. Fighter plane escort for passenger planes is a rational answer to parcel bombs. NATO may need to invade Somalia. Torture in Saudi Arabia vindicated by this tip off. Israel is our stoutest ally.
Will that do? Where do I get the money?
craig's site
So that's three Ayes and two prunings... any other votes?
ReplyDeleteAny objections if I remove one or two?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteduke
ReplyDeleteinteresting isn't it how figures and perceptions are manipulated to suit. Across europe and the world there is a concerted effort to diminish the involvement of the state in health, education services and public administration very Friedmanesque...yet people in general seem to accept it as a crisis measure the fact is it will never be restored it's over, this is what people don't seem to have grasped yet, the limited concern that there is seems to be focussed on the here now not the future....
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePruning is prob a good compromise.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteBB
ReplyDeleteI'd do a 50:50 at this rates
duckie you're quackers.......
PRUNE
ReplyDeletebut leave "this comment removed" markers
ps i realise i have no significant vote since i actually post very little(self preservation),,(but i read everything)
Please don't delete them - I haven't read them all yet!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI'll go for the pruning
ReplyDelete192 comments .. where're they hiding them?
ReplyDeletegandolfo,
ReplyDeleteabsolutely. The resistance to the right wing narrative has been pathetic.Statistics like the one I highlighted above are so easy to find and undermine the 'cuts are essential' bullshit yet there's no wholesale expose of the lies or any organised resistance against it.
Anyway, had a very heavy weekend with a couple of mates over from Glasgow (Heineken have to make an emergency delivery of beer to Leiden tomorrow- there's none left) and that wildduck is giving me a headache trying to read the posts inbetween so I bid you all goodnight.
LOL at the ooooommmmmm post 3p4 :o)
ReplyDeleteYes pruning sounds good - I see someone has started anyway.
Sweet.
Chinese crispy duck pancakes for tea after all then.... :o)
Dave
ReplyDeleteGot a big tin of confit in my garage that I am saving for christmas. Will use the fat off them to cook rissoled potatoes with, and do a nice big salad on the side.
And a glass of Sauternes or its cheaper but just-as-delish little sister St Croix du Mont to go with it.
Heaven on a plate....
Your Grace, before you slip off into oblivion - did you see any of the EDL shenanigans over the weekend?
ReplyDeleteDid the Ajax bunch kick their arses?
Prune - with extreme prejudice.
ReplyDeletei think we have all absorbed the message - a limited vocab can be a disadvantage.
I deleted some, spam binned most.
ReplyDeleteI'm fine with anyone calling me a hypocrite if they want to, but I see no reason to allow some wanker to do that.
Be afraid...
ReplyDeleteExcellent, Montana!
ReplyDeleteDuck-spam fritters all round! :o)
(actually the idea of that just made me be a little bit sick in my throat - does anybody else remember those disgusting spam fritters you used to get for school dinners, sitting cold and throbbing in a pool of fat on the plate? Ugghghghghghghghghg)
Duke
ReplyDelete"yet there's no wholesale expose of the lies or any organised resistance against it"
hate to be cynical but no mainstream political party is interested in exposing it because they follow the same policies, maybe dressed up in a different way with different terminology and spinning, but nonetheless the same....new labour=thatcherite economics=condems= screwing us all well and truely
BB - yes. Eww. And the deep-fried fish ball jobbies on Fridays - uck.
ReplyDelete"This post has been removed by a blog administrator."
ReplyDeleteErr... a vote by UT bloggers is not equivalent to being "modded" which is what Half wit is attempting to imply and by association make the cretinous assumption that all blogs must be moderated.
Quack away as much as you like, you are just making an even bigger tit of yourself than you did the last time you took a dump on here.
puerile doesn't even begin.........Oh sod it I'm not wasting any more time.
BB
ReplyDeletespam fritters....yuk but I did eat them......well you do when you 10 don't you ....i feel my liver's just about to explode....but I loved sausage fritters from the local chippie....gags....
True that, Gandolfo, Duke, MR et al.
ReplyDeleteMy Alf Garnett Tory dad is even beginning to see the light. We were having a chat about it this afternoon and where I would normally have expected to either have him take the piss out of me or at the very least tell me I was being stupid, he was just nodding thoughtfully and agreeing.
Then he said "good job I'm already retired"... and I was thinking "good job you've got your work pension, because a lot of retired folk are not going to be as lucky as you."
Chekhov - oh, Halfwit's shown up, has he? Well well, there's a big surprise.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMontana -- thanks for looking in the spamfolder last night, but my lost post was my slightly flailing right hand ( one reminder of stroke ) which wanders on the keyboard , even when sober, which I was not hehe:)
ReplyDeleteOn the deleting, We're not ezzackly giving the moron a bullet in the back of the neck ...
BB - you must be nearly as ol as me if you remember spam fritters . 1947 v 1953 I think. Playing on bombsites in SE London, and those prefab houses actually looked quite cosy .
Not a particular fan of Gandhi for various reasons but this ain't a bad quote sums up really what's happening now.......
ReplyDelete"An armed conflict between nations horrifies us. But the economic war is no better than an armed conflict. This is like a surgical operation. An economic war is prolonged torture. And its ravages are no less terrible than those depicted in the literature on war properly so-called. We think nothing of the other because we are used to its deadly effects.The movement against war is sound. I pray for its success.
But I cannot help the gnawing fear that the movement will fail, if it does not touch the root of all evil– man's greed."
BB
ReplyDeleteI'll have you know Spam fritters are still popular in parts of West Yorkshire- especially for breakfast, wrapped in a teacake (aka a breadcake in South Yorkshire / a barm cake in Lancashire).
MF - re posting on waddya...It's like shooting fish in a barrel, only to find an hour later that your gun licence has been revoked and the little fishies are still frolicking in the Sea of Oblivion.
ReplyDeleteAlly thinks that I'm being melodramatic for suggesting that waddya should be axed. Not sure why. If Cif wants to be taken seriously as a politics site, it needs to get a new editorial team who actually understand that the world has moved on in the last couple of years and that there are more important things to be debated than what is suggested by the teacher's pets over there.
The problem with waddya is that it's dominated by vacuous clock-watchers who spend their working days air-kissing each other because they haven't got enough friends on Facebook.
That problem is compounded by the fact that the Cif editorial staff is made up of well-connected middle-class nonentities who haven't got an opinion worth the name, so think that they're earning their money if they get to swap banalities with their waddya fanboys.
Cif simply has no credibility in the current era of austerity because the Tories are reverting to their default position of waging class war under the middle class banner, and the Guardian's opposition to that war is fatally undermined by the fact that, for all their waffle about social mobility, the daughter of the Guardian's editor got a job because she's the daughter of the Guardian editor.
Belligerent, Ally? Maybe. I just think it would be hypocritical, as a socialist and an egalitarian, to play nice with Bella.
As for your other friends on Waddya who I might have offended, they couldn't have been more offended than I was when some of them were cheerleading the coalition back in May.
Ignorance is no defence. If they don't understand politics, it would be better for the general level of debate if they fucked off and posted on X Factor blogs.
dave from france
ReplyDeleteBB's old but not that old..... :P)!!!!
spam fritters were on the school dinner's menus well into the 70s....until thatcher decided they weren't a legal requirement....how about frog spawn.....tapioca and semolina with chernobyl jam.....bleedin horrid muck........
Dave - I was born in 62, and we still had spam fritters at school in the 70s.
ReplyDeleteChrist yes.
ReplyDeleteDidn't you go to school in Horsham, gandolfo? I did as well. We must have had the same suppliers...
MsChin
ReplyDeleteI don't think I could face them any more. Brings back too many bad memories of cold, greasy disgusting things in a pool of oil, and slimy grey mash potatoes and bullets disguised as peas...
what school bb we got a 50:50 chance.......
ReplyDeleteWe all understand about the Tea Party now, Montana. The Observer ran a big piece today written by Andrew Neil, who's made a career out of sacking printworkers and lauding neo-liberal politics at the behest of his employer, Rupert Murdoch.
ReplyDelete@Shaz:
ReplyDeleteChekhov - oh, Halfwit's shown up, has he? Well well, there's a big surprise.
Well I was under the impression it was "half wit"...of course it could have been the other half...maybe they could get together and give the "Full Wit!"
I know you didn't go to my school unless you are a girl, Gandolpho. Mine was all girls at the time and in Worthing Road...
ReplyDeleteWas yours in Hurst Road or Compton's Lane?
ReplyDeletechekhov - I was distracted by the Hallowe'en horror of spam fritters. No idea what I was talking about, as usual.
ReplyDeleteDuke
ReplyDeleteInteresting posts from you.It was always a myth in the 80,s that Thatcherite policies in this country and what was called Reaganomics in the States reduced the amount of GDP consumed by the State.In fact they had the opposite effect in both countries -although there were redistributions in State spending such as increases in expenditure on security and in this country increased expenditure on mortgage interest relief of up to 30% to encourage home ownership.
IMO things haven't really changed and i suspect that any short term savings from the ConDem cuts will be more than matched by the increase in State spending needed to clear up the mess that will be a direct consequence of those cuts.
Really, Hank? Haven't seen it. I'll take a look.
ReplyDeleteI had two duck breasts for 75p oot the local super mkt (v. reduced section) Cooked both and ate the first with roast taters. (Kerrs pinks, for the legume loving canard) The second I planned to have with a ramen soup. Prepped some carrot and broccoli, garlic and spices. Sliced the duck and put a pan of water on. Went to the cupboard, nae noodles! Had some spaghetti, used that. It was one of those happy accidents, if any thing it was nicer than the thin, instant noodles! Well thats my contrib to the recipe thread we seem to have become. Looking forward to MIE's latest round of one liners, the opera reviews and Giyus. I blame Hank, "Waddya must be destroyed", we become waddya....
ReplyDelete@Duke, @Gandalfo, My view is that I do not expect any political party to point out the truth about the cuts but what I do expect is for journalists to publish that truth. We know who the masters are for most of the press, we know who has a say in SKY but the Guardian has no puppet master does it? Channel 4 news and Dispatches have been good in most respects but strangely lacking AFAIK on this topic.
ReplyDeleteWhat bothered me about the BBC when the Kelly story broke was the way they capitulated, rolled over and accepted the blame for what in essence was a true story. Then to add insult to injury they ask the opinion of propaganda master in chief Alastair Campbell.
Sorry, ranted on too long here but there is a gap and only on this kind of site do I find out the facts.
turminder
ReplyDeleteTonights the night MIE dons his white sheet and pointy hat-for Halloween of course!
"I blame Hank, 'Waddya must be destroyed', we become waddya..."
ReplyDeleteHeh, I look forward to Bru regaling us with tales of shopping at Lidl for out of date mince.
chekhov - I was distracted by the Hallowe'en horror of spam fritters. No idea what I was talking about, as usual.
ReplyDeleteIn my experience the people who claim to have no idea what they are talking about are the ones with the best clues!
bb
ReplyDeleteah.....well I'm a 3 years younger than you so it had gone co-ed so girls and boys....haha
Miss Richmond physics......
my mum went there as well as a gal....
1962 -- a young thing then :)
ReplyDeleteI see that BB has been 'disappeared' around 8.15pm on Jackstraw . I'm quite pleased that my link to craigmurray is still there, but a bugger I can't do clickable links at the G . The nice thing about any craig article on Straw is that he's been calling him a fucking liar for quite a few years now , every time the name comes up. And CarterFuck and Schillings have had no effect on him over the Uzbekistan dictatorship either . Just tells them to fuck off.
then to collyers......but most of my time was spent in The Bear......
ReplyDeleteIf only Mr Scorpio, if only, I suspect that is what barry the scunthorpe trucker subsists on, and the fashion jewelry,Italian princes and opera is all his repressed homosexuality...
ReplyDeleteBtw Paul, duck is delicious, and the thing (with pankakes and duck sauce) that broke my vegetarianism, 20m years ago.
NN all, got to be up early the 16 y.o cat has gone missing, doesn't bode well...
Twenty years, not 20 million!
ReplyDeleteYou think Bru's a repressed homosexual, tx?
ReplyDeleteI always had Hermione down for that gig.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBloody hell, gandolfo! You were in the year above my sister.
ReplyDeleteI had Mrs Killick for physics though. Except I was so crap at it that I was kicked out at the end of the 3rd year. She completely the humiliation by calling me up in front of the class in my last lesson and saying:
"Right. I am going to show you how to wire a plug. Because I never want it to be said that someone can be in my class for three years and not learn anything at all..."
I was at Collyer's for a year before dropping out, man....
@>coughcough
ReplyDeleteJust read your comment from yesterday. Get over it, eh? How long ago was that?
No wonder you and Bitey are still going at it.
@BB - mine at 21.39 was for you...
ReplyDelete" rule 5. nobody well-bred or 'attractive' "
ReplyDeleteFuckit, that's me ruled out then.
I was loooking forward to congratulating the gallant Major on two whole months of clean-ish posting , but he's been away for a week now.
Okay. Tea Party article was just the sort of shit one would expect from one of Murdoch's minions.
ReplyDeleteOnly time I've ever had duck was the Christmas I spent in Denmark. Thick brown-sugary sauce on it. Yum. Best Christmas dinner I've ever had.
Probably not Hank, just that It'll annoy them ; ) EH (if it is they) what a tube... I'll vote nay moderation, let the gibberish stand. Don't give them the satisfaction of being able to say, 'OOh the UT censored me!, what hypocrits...' Leave the wankers jiz on the wall, for all to see. Right, am off this time. atb p x
ReplyDeleteIan
ReplyDelete"but what I do expect is for journalists to publish that truth."
in fact that's exactly what the Guardian isn't doing.....why? it sells with sensationalism not raw facts and realities...a nice bomb threat is more clicks and more sales Ms smith not getting through her ATOS check isn't something that links us as one it's far to boring and not adrenalin boosting....oh and it doesn't affect the average graun reader who doesn't give a toss----they want to get on that BA flight to Pisa fuck the workers rights to strike because they are losing jobs, pay, conditions, they want a "cheap" trendy bag from Miu Miu but conveniently forget that it is made in a country which causes workers to lose jobs and rights here and £30 quid price difference is really more important that rights in China.....blah blah---
It'll be 'treat' next, will it? Fits the monosyllabic theme...
ReplyDeleteturm -- I know nothing about zero-hours contracts, do they still pay some NI stamp for pension or is it just nothing ?
ReplyDeleteHank
ReplyDeleteI was enjoying it yesterday. He is so full of shite, and I was at home and bored.
If he leaves me alone, all well and good. I won't say a dickey bird to him
But....
If he wants to keep taking me on that's fine by me. I'm over being freaked out by him now and just enjoy pointing and laughing.
Besides which he posted such utter shite yesterday - which I did a "Bitey" with - that he has lost any feminist credential he might once have believed himself to have had...
Bring it! :o)
SFA Dave, afaik. Nytol.
ReplyDeleteBB
ReplyDeleteMiss Whitehead PE bloody hell running up denne hill killed me as did swimming in the unheated outdoor pool in march.....Miss Gledhill's....lime green coat...couple of hippy teachers though....for english and classics....
your sis would have been in my younger sister's year.......spooky..........