Re one gun, two bullets, it's a game, like "what I'd do if I were world dictator". No-one's actually suggesting they're going to go out there and really kill people.
This post is also addressed to anyone from GCHQ, the CIA or any other alphabet-soup organisation who may be "listening".
I wasn't nasty to you - I clearly said - to Paul that I didn't 'hate' you (how can I, I have not met you) and I tried to engage you in debate. My last post to you was very reasonable and asked you to consider the links given by Leni, LaRit et al.
YOu then ignored all the links given and the issues - completely!
YOu then, laughingly, said you are a 'contrarian' who ignores received wisdom - what!!!! YOu believe the DWP and the Mail for pity's sake. You are a mainstream mug basically.
You then say you are hurt by some of the bile written about you. Well for what it's worth Steve you have hurt me on behalf of myself and Mike Bach and my cousin and everyone else I know through various support groups who are ill, with your clear villifying of most needing to claim incap benefits. You can be vile towards people you know without addressing them personally and there are different forms of violence.
You won't debate. You know PeterB for all his flouncing around etc does debate. He does come below the line of his articles and defend his position. You refuse to debate, you refuse to say whether or not - having nursed your own wife through cancer you feel emotions upon reading Mike Bachs story - if indeed you actually read it. You refuse to consider what you have been told about the new test being flawed. Something that the paper you keep mentioning - The Times - did a front page story and a double page spread on. It was clearly researched and Professor Gregg who wrote the test says it is not working correctly - not one answer from you on any of this - not one!
McMillan Cancer care are up in arms about this test. Does that mean anything to you? SO are the MS society, Parkinsons society, RNIB, RNID etc.
You are refusing to debate with us and then claim we are the ones who are being nasty and vicious. I don't actually know what to think about you. From when you posted on Cif I thought there were few posters who were as intransigent as you were. The whole point of debating is to possibly learn something or maybe even change ones mind. I have changed my views on many things since being on Cif and here - you clearly have not and also have no interest whatsoever in doing so. At all.
Hey Paul - I didn't think you were having a go at me, no worries. Just wondered if my reply to Steve had made you think it.
Re being friends with people with different views - i can but it would depend on the extremity of those views. I have a lot of friends and family are true blue Tories. I even have a mate who votes UKIP so am used to a good old political row.
I think it is different online because you don't know the person all you really get to know are their views.
Not being depressed isn't all it is cut out to be. ;)
Normally on a day like today (pouring with rain and very miserable) I would be half zombied or asleep but I find myself itching to do something to occupy my mind, I've got a couple of assignments to finish so I suppose I should do them but once they are done I am left at a total loose end.
It might sound like a flippant complaint but when you have been depressed and housebound for a long time you find that life has moved on without you, friends fall by the wayside and you forget how to enjoy yourself and be active.
Obviously I would rather be feeling as well as I do now but it brings its own challenges.
I am fearful about looking for work (even voluntary work) but I think the time has come to get on with it.
Hi Jen, Just read your post. If you email Montana she will give you my email address and you can drop me a line if you want to 'talk' about starting some voluntary work. I understand the fears around it - which I guess are maybe multiple? Anyway if you wanna drop me a line please feel free.
I am pissed off inside and miserable. As I said before, it is probably for the best that I don't share all my personal issues here or on cif, which is why I quit.
I'm as depressed as hell- although I would not say mentally ill because most psychiatric diagnoses have been invented to please the US pharmaceutrical/insurance industry.
I haven't bothered applying for any jobs since June and frankly I don't see the point any more. My self esteem has taken such a hammering that I can't cope with the constant rejection and humiliation and that is why I won't apply. The possibility of going around asking in shops, handing out my CV etc is now totally impossible. That is why people rely on the job centre, job hunting should always be objective and neutral, not informal because it discriminates against people like me who have had their self esteem eroded.
People like ATOS, A4E, the Daily Mail, Tories in general wonder why it is that so many people are on incap because of mental illness- simply becuase the jobseeking process grinds people down. If the govment really wants to end the number of people being mentally ill and long term unemployed then it needs to provide better conditions for unemployed people.
I can guarantee that nearly 100% of people who are unemployed for over 6 months will develop hallmarks of mental illness, although I still disagree with the diagnostic criteria.
Charles I am sorry to hear the jobseeking is getting you so down, I can understand why you feel it is hopeless, I don't know if it will be the same for me as I have a fair bit of experience behind me, non of it in brilliant jobs but at least it is something.
I have just rang the local bingo hall and they are sending me an application form, I have no desire to work there but I am going to use it as a test of my self confidence and to see if I can bluff my way past the last two years not working (that is if I even get an interview I am not taking anything for granted).
I think I would be better getting some voluntary work first but from reading about your experiences with that it doesn't seem to be any simpler to get, I hope PCC can give me some good pointers.
I hope that you find some way of getting some kind of enjoyment out of your time, working is important for self esteem but it is not the be all and end all, I am a fine one to talk as I don't do much with my own time but I am working my way up to it.
Sounds like you're both on a real downer.I get days like that when everything seems to get on top of me.The way i try and deal with it is to keep reminding myself that everything has a beginning,a middle and an end.So these bad times won,t go on forever.And it's also important not to isolate yourselves to much even if the only 'contact' you're getting is through blogging.When i've been under stress i've found that even that can help to focus my mind on other things.
Anyway here's an uplifting old skool tune for you both.
Princess, I made a personal promise to Leni to consider any other evidence with an open mind, and I will.
But I won't be coming back here to tell anyone the outcome. You don't need moderators here. You have a very effective eviction committee, to whom terms like due process or fair trial are anathema.
You will end up with a self-selecting body of like-minded people. I have other interests in my life which prevail over any voyeuristic desire to stay around to watch the inevitable consequences.
There are people here who don't agree with your views, I'm one of them. So far posters on here who have chosen to, have argued their case in a reasonable way and haven't told you to bugger off.
I don't know who frolix is or where they've come from but they do not represent the ethos of the site which is, except for one or two of the more egregious trolls who periodically fetch up here, not to moderate or prevent people with opposing views from having their say.
Have to say though, that I agree with the others when they conclude you're not a great one for engaging with the issues in an open minded way. That doesn't mean however, that I would seek ways of preventing you from posting and neither would any of the other regular posters here, of which frolix isn't one as far as I'm aware.
There seem to be quite a few friendly and not so friendly lurkers on this site who occasionally parachute in to have a natter or make waves - frolix seems to be one of the wave makers.
King Soloman asked his wizards to provide him with a charm thet would make him happy when he was sad an sad when he was happy. They returned the next day with a simple gold ring.
'How's this work?' asks King S.
'Simple, your majesty,' quoth the Mages, 'When you wish it to have effect, take the ring from your finger and read the inscription...'
Nearly everyone here has been welcoming of you - nearly everyone (except me and Hank basically) said welcome to you. All of us - including me - discussed with you in just the way we have on Cif. I am a bit nonplussed as to be honest as to where you are getting this idea of you being persecuted from. It is really rather strange to be honest.
You are acting like a martyr, and clearly have a bit of a persecution complex.
One might also think that you didn't really feel comfortable once put on the spot re answering the questions put to you and reading the information that may challenge you.
I do have to say that Steve saying that he will consider the evidence provided by Leni but won't share his conclusions with her is one of the most childish things I have heard for a while.
Wise words all round, my heart, for what it's worth goes, out to anybody having a shitty time of things, right now.
Charles, I know you're a fan of Thomas Hardy: "happiness is but an occasional episode in a general drama of pain", but I prefer to go with Khayyam: "Drink wine in this world and not the next, for none has returned to say which is best".
Spike, if I were World Dictator, it would be a fairly fucked up place, but one hell of a party.
Steve can fight his own battles, but as a relatively detached observer and occasional contributor here, I will say this: Untrusted will welcome anyone, but it suckles and embraces only its own kind.
That would be easy to live with were it not for the borderline inhuman viscousness with which out-of-step individuals are treated. And if you can't see this - among the defining qualities of this website - then you'll have difficulty seeing anything.
Now, you might reason that there is as much internecine squabbling as there is summary executions of off-message wretches, and that's true enough. But that would miss the point. Which is that the whilst the infantile dick-swinging between regulars resembles a common-or-garden family feud, the opprobrium heaped on trespassers amounts to summary guillotining.
It's not they can't debate, it's that the totalitarian impulse on show here day-in-day-out prevents them from so doing.
The problem for this site, however, is that in me you've found a cocksure arse that doesn't give a flying fuck for your pre-digested baton-down-the-hatches saintly-sadistic communality.
I have every intention of becoming the cuckoo in the nest.
Who'll murder his nest mates and sleep like a baby.
I have a bit on my plate at the moment, so will only be a sporadic visitor, I suspect that the internet conection at home will be unsustainable mid term... Good luck to all here, even shill & P-brax - the many headed Kracken!
The problem for this site, however, is that in me you've found a cocksure arse that doesn't give a flying fuck for your pre-digested baton-down-the-hatches saintly-sadistic communality.
Peter -I acknowledge you have one virtue - the capacity to make me laugh! no small thing given the dismal times we inhabit. Thing is you really are not a problem for this site. Those who wish to engage with you can and those who don't will simply scroll on by.
I don't know a lot about cuckoos but as far as I'm concerned you can post on here as often as you like - more laughs for me!
I do wonder why the great brain and avid reader of the dictionnaire de métaphores éclatant, has chosen to be the cuckoo in the UT nest. You'd have thought our pitiful fuckwittery would be yards beneath him.
Have you ever read Lautréamont? You should - you'll find a cornucopia of metaphors in Les Chants de Maldoror. I think you might enjoy it too. When I read your pieces I am reminded of a phrase from the book,
He sings for himself alone and not for his fellow man
Spike I'm not sure of the protocol here (the storm over "us" being/not being an evil gang of group-thinking bullies - rages on), but I'm going to have to applaud you for that one.
Fuckinell, I come back and it sounds as though there have been fights breaking out all over. Have not read over the past few days.
Steve, as far as I'm concerned (for the small amount that's worth) you are welcome to post here but don't expect many people to agree with your views on various topics such as welfare, corporatism and tax policy. You might have some common ground with the cuckoo.
PeterB
the borderline inhuman viscousness with which out-of-step individuals are treated
D'you mean to say that we oil them before roasting?
I have not read the Spirit Level . Don't know how well or otherwise arguments are presented or if stats are misused. So won't comment on book.
There has been a lot of research - experimental and observatioal/experience based - on why populations move to the right when a society is under economic stress or external threat.
Throughout history a move towards what we generally call right wing politics has produced very unequal societies , often manufacturing a scapegoat - this focuses attention on a small group and allows rage born of fear and sense of imminent loss to be directed against this group rather than against incompetent or repressive leaders.
In these situations populations align themselves for or against - some of the most evil rhetoric in history comes from the scapegoating movement - targets vary but the language remains the same.
Basically the theme is "get rid of this group and all will be well. This group is the cause of all our problems. Trust me as leader and I will eradicate/disempower this vicious group of people hiding in our midst "
In a society with more evenly disrtributed wealth and power this is less likely to happen - the causative factors are not there.
The fear of autocratic leaders who have murdered and dispossessed - and that of the supporters and enablers - is that should they lose power they will become the helpless victims. They increase the terror to protect themselves.
Unequal societies are dangerous. Today in Britain we have a large group of people who fear loss of economic advantage - these are the economic middle rankers - they have the most tp lose if the coming economic pain is evenly distributed - it is from this group that most of the hate speech is coming. Cameron knows he can wind them up and use them to support his measures. Look at the vicious language across the boards.
I see echoes of the Inquisition - witch hunts - antisemitism in the condemnatin of the sick and disabled. What do you think will be the outcome of 10 million + people living at subsistence level ?
The super rich - for the most part - will be untouched.
There has been a lot of research - experimental and observatioal/experience based - on why populations move to the right when a society is under economic stress or external threat.
And I would argue that right-wingers actively promote economic stress and/or external threat to widen their influence.
Two people are tied together obove a steep and crumbling cliff. The rules state the the first one to cry 'uncle' is the loser. The one who keeps silent is the winner and will get a huge financial reward. The ideal is that both stay silent and both will live - neither will get a reward other than continued existence. I think we call this cooperation in dangerous times.
Some may edge towards the cliff trying to frighten other into shouting. The danger of miscalculating is that both will die.
They could reach an agreement whereby one shouts - gets the reward and both live and share the proceeds.
The point is that trying to push the other over the edge in the false belief that you will profit means you will go down too. Think about it.
Brussels report please - was it totally entrancing ? Never been to B - tv only ever shows parliament buildings - I assume there is more to it than that.
jeremyjames 23 Aug 2010, 6:11PM -- got there first !
I hate the bloody things. Absolutely hate them. Like I hate automatic ticket barriers. I like cashiers because you can try to make them laugh and ticket collectors because sometimes they smile.
I like human beings. (Bloody Luddite).
What a totally crappy nonsense; unemployment likely to go up so we replace jobs with machines.
I think we need a separate unctuousness rating in case Seaton or MacShane ever turn up. It could be like Top Trumps.
Jen - trip was fantastic, thanks! Saw fuck-all of Brussels except to notice that it's got a very odd hodge-podge of architecture. Apparently we were staying in the ex-pat area and I am not sure that I met a single person who was actually Belgian. Went into a pub (the "Hairy Canary") expecting to practise my French and discovered that all the staff are Irish!
At the wedding, we counted 13 nationalities out of around 50 guests. There might have been a token Belgian there, but if so I didn't meet him/her. Most people seem to regard it as a fairly pleasant port of call but not a destination.
The mister and I decided immediately that we enjoy being country bumpkins and that city life is hell on earth.
On that note Thauma, if anybody is feeling the absence of a Seaton/McShane type character in their daily lives to shout and swear at, you could do a lot worse than John Rentoul over at the Indy....
Poor old stevehill! He's used to getting hundreds of recommendations for his vacuous shite on braindead Cif, and here some/most people are saying that he's a closed-minded, woefully uninformed moron. So he's taking his ball away and won't play any more. Boo fucking hoo. And if he thinks that this place is the 'hard left', then he's more deluded than Peter Bracken. This place has alienated more socialists than Dave Cameron has had expensive lunches. It's now just a (very guilty) LibDem middle-class whinge-fest. You'd fit right in, Steve! Stick around.
This place has alienated more socialists than Dave Cameron has had expensive lunches.
Really, Frolix? You don't think AnneTan is socialist? Nor the Princess, nor the Duke (OK, a bit of a laugh at the monikers), nor Leni, nor Sheff, nor MsChin, nor Bitterweed, nor Montana herself, nor ....
Yes, we have had two or three who don't think we're angry enough. I'm sorry for it as I enjoyed their contributions while they still enjoyed this site (and often some embittered ones), but I personally don't see how it is possible to win over enough people to make a political difference with pure anger. You have to reach the ones in the middle with your arguments - and attacking those very people is highly counter-productive.
It's a shame you couldn't 'be arsed' to read my post, you might have learned something. We will never reach understanding whilst you continue to refuse to engage on a most basic level. It's just a bit depressing to read your responses - it's worse than trying to engage with Steve "throw my toys out of the pram" Hill!!
Your blind spot is, from what I can gather, an inablilty to even contemplate that we live in a world dominated by masculine culture and ideology - it is that which is especially damaging to women, but equally damaging to men - it is what Capitalism thrives on and the perpetuation of inequality between men and women is one of the most dehumanising aspects which damages all our lives. You cannot call yourself a socialist without acknowledging this fundamental fact.
Sorry to hear that both Jen and NapK in such low spirits..... I can empathise as I've been engaged in a long struggle these past few months.... not easy. ;(
"This place has alienated more socialists than Dave Cameron has had expensive lunches. It's now just a (very guilty) LibDem middle-class whinge-fest."
Fuck me, are the rest of you middle class on here? I mean, it's nothing to hate you for, but I thought we were all potless and trying to find a laugh where we could.
By the way, frolix8, if Sheff says "You're just a twat." It really is time to take stock. If I say it, it's just a par performance.
Cuckoos build no nests, they parasitise the nest of others leaving their youngsters in foster care - this of course uses up the resources of the smaller bird at no cost to the cuckoo.
Cuckoo populations thrives on the backs on the smaller, hard working species.
Cuckoos add a recognisable sound to the landscape but do little more - noisey, showy things. Their affairs are conducted in secret. Their agenda is theft.
Cuckoos build no nests, they parasitise the nest of others leaving their youngsters in foster care - this of course uses up the resources of the smaller bird at no cost to the cuckoo.
Cuckoo populations thrives on the backs on the smaller, hard working species.
So apt in the circs...and very well described by you.
My view on visitors here or newcomers is that we should talk to them - why not? We may disagree on things but there are bound to be points of contact.
Trolls who swing by with a tirade of invective and insults are rather funny but sad - I imagine they feel free to unleash on line fears and hatreds they keep hidden IRL.
Really, Frolix? You don't think AnneTan is socialist? Nor the Princess, nor the Duke (OK, a bit of a laugh at the monikers), nor Leni, nor Sheff, nor MsChin, nor Bitterweed, nor Montana herself, nor ....
Anne yes, princess no, duke yes, leni yes, sheff yes, bitterweed yes, montana no, thauma no, jay no, swifty no, BB no, nap no, paul no, peterj no, peterb no, dotterel no, larit no, chekhov no, james no, habib no, frog yes, philippa no, gandolfo no etc.
Sorry, but you did ask, and it's only my opinion as a previously silent observer. How many British people here voted LibDem? And how is that working out for you all? And how much time is spent here discussing identity politics - women, blacks, muslims, pakistanis, gypsies. And the latest trendy 'minority' is the sick and disabled. Yeah, it's a real shame what the Tories and the LibDems are doing to them, but half of you voted for them, and whinging about it is just a plaster on the sore of the guilty conscience of the ex-working class that forgot that socialism meant solidarity and a living wage and a real economic struggle, not just jumping on the latest bandwagon to prove your street credentials to other wishy-washy 'liberals'. You fucked up big time and it's too fucking late to say now that you really care. You took your eye off the real ball, and just wanted to be 'nice', and now you're all shafted. Tough shit - it's your own fault.
I'm confused frolix8, should I ever wear a tee shirt with a suit jacket? Black shirt, black jacket, but I'm, not sure. I only ask, because you seem to know everything about everything.
It's only an opinion, habib, not a claim to omnipotence. I thought that this forum was open to alternative views - although the responses from eg. leni (a funny but sad troll), sheff (a twat) and yourself leads me to believe that you're just a small incestuous group who circle the wagons when challenged. It's neither impressive nor edifying. And if this is the future of 'socialism' (pace leni and sheff, two of the 'socialists' on this blog), then we are truly fucked.
Well, frolix, I disagree with most of your assessment on various posters' allegiances - but it is for them to say where they stand.
In fact I did vote LibDem in the last election. Their manifesto, manifestly betrayed since then, was to the left of Labour. I could not vote for a party that had gone into Iraq, nor one that had started the current workfare climate, and etc. Obviously there was no question of voting for the Tories. (The Tory candidate won by a significant margin.)
If another election were held tomorrow I would vote Green, although I have my doubts about some of their policies. They are never going to win a seat in my district, but the three main parties are fucking anathema to me now.
As for the sick and disabled, the LDs in no way indicated in their manifesto that they would wage war on them in the way that Labour had and the way you knew the Tories would.
I don't have much time for "identity politics" but if you are dismissing throwing ill people off IB/ESA/whatever as "identity politics" then fuck off.
I'm pretty sure I've never claimed to be a socialist, but it's still worth knowing that I've failed to meet the criteria for whatever your definition of it is though, so thanks for that!!
And I'll be sure to consider your input next time I have to answer a 'what's your political persuasion according to random or anonymous Internet posters' type question!
Look frolix - all you've done since you appeared is pontificate about our shortcomings - no opinions or argument from you, apart from your views who might or might not be a socialist. So please don't expect us to take you seriously.
If, however, you choose to engage in a debate or even start one, I'm sure there are people on here who would be happy to engage with you.
Kiz
the sick and disabled as trendy minority
Seems, as far as frolix is concerned, that would be the case. No evidence from him/her that s/he gives a shit about anything other than the sound of of his/her own voice.
This site has 57 followers but there are only about 15-20 regular posters. Ok, we can accept that some people just got bored or disinterested, but is it fair to say that others left for other reasons?
IMO, yes there is a passive selection policy on this site, at least ideologically, coming from the left. The problem with the left, as always in history is that everyone has their own interpretation of it and thinks theirs is the one true faith. Even on this one blogsite, we have distinctions between, say, the HankScorpio brand of leftism, the AnneTan brand of leftism, etc, even FFS Peter 'I write as a supporter of the left' Bracken.
The reality is that left/right have no meaning, neither do class. My own politics are a mixture of right and left and I see no contradictions in what I believe- they are what I believe to be 'just' on a personal level and a societal level.
Like I said before Frolix8 - you're such a smooth talker ;) It makes a change not to be called a 'socialist' for once... clearly I'm really a rabid Tory or Nu-Labber-Lubber underneath, in your humble opinion, naturlich!
Leni - brilliant bit on the cuckoo - very pat for our Pete ;)
At the last election I voted Labour. It was the first election there's been while I've lived in this constituency; in my previous constituency in 2005 I exchanged votes with a LibDem in Dorset to maximise the anti-Tory tactical vote. In 2001 and 1997 I voted LibDem in a successful anti-Tory tactical voting campaign; the Labour vote was risible there. In all other elections, Labour. Starting in February 1974.
As for political views, I have them on a wide range of subjects. Could you provide a checklist so that I can work out your definition of socialist, and decide whether or not I agree?
frolix, most of us voted lib dem becuase they were to the left of the labour party. (Altohugh I refuse to be pigeonholed into any left/right category I have no probs with sensible and more importantly humane, pragmatic and intellectual leftist policies) That they changed could not have been foreseen.
Aye Kiz...yet another troll. We seem to have them in arriving shoals these days.
Nap
I don't visit many blogs - I have a life IRl and i just don't have the time but I don't think what you describe is that unusual. People come and go. And yes, our politics are left wing and that's why we're here.
Some of us have now met up in the real world several times and I liked everyone who came - decent people with decent ideas and good company to boot.
Hmm, Jen... judgemental, sanctimonious, bringing skin colour and race into things, playing the "I'm more left than you are" card... nope can't think of anyone like that round these here parts.
Just to clarify on the ESA/disability etc stuff. I don't regard it as 'identity politics' as such, and it is one of many important single issues, but my point was that it shares many characteristics with previous causes celebres for the so-called left-wing. It's just the latest hobby-horse. It is no more or less (but imo probably much less) important than a living wage, catastrophic unemployment, the lack of affordable housing, wealth redistribution, unemployment benefit rates, fair taxation of the better-off etc etc. These things have much more impact on the nitty-gritty day-to-day lives of the working and non-working classes.
Socialism has always been about an equitable distribution of wealth and opportunity, and the aspiration has always been that this can be acheived within a 'fair' political system. This has not been acheived and and this basic goal has often been forgotten in a blur of identity politics and (recently) empty talk about electoral reform. The 'classless society' is a myth, but many believe in it, or pretend to, and have actively promoted the concept (like NewLabour and now the Tories.) It is, of course, bullshit - British society has probably never been so class-ridden and class-determined than it is now. It surpasses even Victorian times in terms of education, career, earning potential. Predicating arguments on this castle of sand is pointless - buying into this fallacy is a mistake, but one that the 'middle classes' are happy to embrace. Guardian journalists are a prime example of this - Bunting, Toynbee, etc. - articles about Lithuanian nannies and the problems of going on holiday. We're all middle-class now - except we're fucking not! Class and equality are primarily economic issues, as is socialism, it's got fuck all to do with the colour of your skin or your sexual orientation or the ability to work from home or paternity leave. These are convenient distractions from the main prize and serve the ststus quo ruling class extremely well.
Until socialists focus on what is important rather than what is trendy and expedient, then there is no going forward.
btw, kizbot (and others), the criteria for being a socialist are more or less defined by the definition of 'socialist'. Look it up somewhere. And sheff, you don't need to take me seriously, I really don't give a fuck, but your dismissive, very defensive attitude kind of proves my point. Circle those wagons! There's an intruder who doesn't toe the line!
Yes, I know what the definition of socialist is. I wasn't asking you for one. I was asking what are your criteria for decding that bitters is and jay isn't.. that was my question. What factors lead you to conclude that MW or princess don't fit the definition in your book.. but some others do. Your list seems somewhat arbitrary... not least because a few on it have not claimed to be socialist anyways.
And sheff, you don't need to take me seriously, I really don't give a fuck, but your dismissive, very defensive attitude kind of proves my point. Circle those wagons! There's an intruder who doesn't toe the line!
clearly you don't give a fuck - no need to reiterate it,and I'm not being defensive at all. Until your post above - most of which I agree with, you hadn't bothered to engage in debate but merely slagged us off. What kind of response do you expect? We get so many loons appearing on here how can we know what makes you different, more worth engaging with?
These iniquitous condem attacks on the most vulnerable, the sick and disabled are amongst the first and are a powerful indication of the way the wind's blowing - which is part of the reason people on the UT have been banging on about it. Quite apart from the fact that people here have some experience and personal interest in issues.
There seem to be the first stirrings of resistance around the country (at last) and if you've got ideas about how to build on this, please feel free to put them forward.
Disability benefits is not likely to be a short term fashionable issue. It will be ongoing - with increasing numbers of people being affected.
Numbers on incap from wc exceed those from elsewhere. Heavy duty work in high risk jobs explains this. Repetitive work can impact on muscle groups and joints.
long term illness can strike anybody as can accidents.
With the expected numbers of unemployed set to increase forcing sick ans disabled into the employment market will impact on the lower income groups more than on high earners. Low earners tend to be congregated in already impoverished areas - former mining and manufacturing - this will further weaken and marginalise wc communities.
These communities have no political representation. The unions do not fight for either the unemployed or disabled. They fight to save jobs - who fights to create them ?
Trying to protect the sick and disabled is part of trying to bring attention to their needs and also to get a full debate (genuine) around the plight of the wc - disempowered and ignored.
Why should we not demand investment in these areas ? Why should socialists not fight for the most marginalised - and currently the most negatively targetted?
I do not need to mention compassion and humanity I hope - these are not alien concepts to socialists.
frolix8 - disability is certainly not a hobby-horse for the many around here who are or have been disabled/ill in some way, or for those who are professionally or voluntarily involved.
I forget who recommended this site, PeterJ perhaps ,
The government has made repeated assurances that such reforms will provide better value for money and will improve efficiency, though the evidence strongly suggests otherwise. A parliamentary Health Committee report released earlier this year noted that since the introduction of internal markets and private finance, management and administrative costs in the NHS have soared, going from a traditional low of 5% to about 14% of overall expenditure by 2005, probably more by now. In the United States, which essentially has a privatised healthcare system, administrative costs are over 30% of overall expenditure, though much lower in the state-run Medicare system. There is also no evidence that the private sector in the UK is more efficient than the public sector; in fact, where detailed studies have been done, such as in Australia, the conclusion reached is that “hospital care in the public sector is provided at higher levels of technical, allocative and dynamic efficiency than in the private sector”. NewLeftProject
Public opinion is very much for the NHS. There is a link to an interesting study at Edinburgh University , quote from it -- The vision of the future is one in which corporate interests will be given incentives to select patients, time-limit care, sell top-up insurance, and introduce charges for some elements of care no longer provided by the NHS. We may even see the development of practices competing against one another for members (patients), just like US health insurers. That’s a chilling prospect for the elderly, those with chronic illness and people with mental illness and long-term needs, who are often of no commercial interest to the corporates because of their high healthcare costs.
I don't mind whether people are communist,socialist, or whatever as long as we are fighting the corporate take-over .
"...but I thought Montana founded the UT as a place to continue posting after Cif threads had closed."
So she did Nap - but she has never tried (to my knowledge) to prevent UT's organic development, despite some misguided calls to do so.
Sorry to read that you and Jen are having a struggle with "the black dog" - best wishes in that regard. I wouldn't wish to make light of distress but there is a fucking lot to be depressed about in contemporary Britain and your certainly not alone...
turm I hope your Internet connection can be maintained and that work finds it's way to your door.
leni - problem with cuckoos is that they throw other folks eggs out the nest!
Nah, just a cowboy making yee ha! noises and firing into the air.
Sorry habib, I didn't realise you had a monolopy on that sort of vapid thing here. It's kind of hard to work out who is the most inconsequential poster on UT. Good song though, but if it's cowboys yer after, try cowboy song
leni, I certainly don't disagree with protecting the vulnerable, how could I? But this almost exclusive focus on IB etc is not doing much for the majority of the 'disenfranchised' who will suffer under the forthcoming savage cuts. It's perhaps a good poster-child for the viciousness of this government, but what about JSA, public sector job cuts, creeeping privatisation of the NHS, closing of libraries, cut-backs in schools, easing off on prosecuting tax avoidance, scrapping of winter fuel allowance, etc et . I could go on indefinitely. Much as I despise ATOs and what is happening, I think it's only a small part of a much more pernicious agenda, and when there are so many battles to be fought, this is perhaps not the best one to fight from a PR perspective. Depressing, I know, but to counteract the sucessful Tory spin of these 'unfortunate but necessary cuts, we're all in this together' trope in the public perception, the oposition needs to focus more on more universal and recognisable cuts which will affect ordinary people more, and which they will relate to more as part of their lives. That is unfortunately the dirty reality of politics in British society today. Few people in the UK really give a flying fuck about people on IB, DLA etc (see stevehill). It's a question of perception and PR. If you confront the government on issues which are not already tainted, and which will affect many more people, then when the cuts really bite, there is more chance that you can bring this government down. The disability issue simply won't do it, because most people simply don't care about it.
Sorry to be so negative about this, but I think that being ruthlessly practical now is essential. Emotion needs to take a back seat for the greater good.
Hi jen -- I asked Giyus to work on the mikebach/ATOS , I've known him since he appeared, but no result yet . I'd add pompous to your earlier description of childish behaviour...
hi, frog2, just saw your post. I agree that it is not just a 'hobbyhorse' for many people on UT. I wasn't being dismissive, and apolgise it seemed so, but the handful of people here who are involved either personally or professionally are not the Great British Public. They're a sub-set of a sub-set. This is not equivalent to the suffragette movement. See my last post - your thoughts on it are most welcome.
frolix The problem is deeper than bringing this gvt. down. who would replace them .. there is hardly a paper slice between the political parties.
The disability argument is only a small part of the problem I agree. The disabled are the most easily attacked - vulnerable and unable to defend themselves we have to support them.
it is in fact a cross party issue - I imagine support for their cause comes from several sectors. This does not mean we can expect unity into other areas .
I don't think anybody here thinks that this alone is the only front to fight on. There are concerns here around all the areas you mention.
Sorry to be so negative about this, but I think that being ruthlessly practical now is essential. Emotion needs to take a back seat for the greater good.
Sorry habib, but you should really be judged by a jury of your peers. I must stand above the fray, my opinion here is apparently of no value :0) Good luck!
Come off it frolix - now you're actually taking the trouble to say something people are engaging with you.
And what about the meeting I mentioned? Are you coming? If you can't get to Manchester there's one in Brighton and others around the country. I've posted some info about them on our ATL page. Do you actually do anything or are you just an armchair warrior?
sheff, I read the very interesting info you posted, but I can't make any meetings, although I'd like to. I'm just an armchair warrior, I guess, so I won't get to meet all the other UT'ers who no doubt will travel all round the country to attend these meetings. Bummer!
Thauma - ''We don't ban people but you may be subjected to a viscosity rating''. Love it!
Leni your post at 18.21 was brilliant.
Frolix - Oooh I am intrigued why am I not a socialist? Not that I mind, mind. I don't know if I would call myself one - is that why I am not one? Or is it because I joined the Greens instead of Labour? Do you think there is anything socialist about New Labour? Or should I join the SWP? Anyway whatever re the who is and isn't socialist bit - you could bung that up for me on Cif and the Telegraph where I am constantly being called a 'deluded socialist'.
My position - Marx was spot on about the issues in capitalism. However I think the solutions are more complex as we face ecological issues too, so I think the left has to be about socialist principles as well as green principles.
Oh and by the way your thing about IB - I have not just focused on that - I have repeatedly talked about JSA, the villifying of the sick AND the unemployed and I have talked about social housing and the employment situation - its all in my posts so what more do you want from people?
Leni: ''The problem is deeper than bringing this gvt. down. who would replace them .. there is hardly a paper slice between the political parties.''
Spot on. A Labour party led by any of the current contenders would be minor shades of grey better than this lot that is all. And at the end of the day both of them believed in extreme cuts. Labours were only slightly shy of this lots which are still the most extreme cuts seen in any developed nation in times of a major downturn.
My mum was telling me she saw a report recently from Italy about how old ladies who cannot afford even a cheap air con unit in their apartments are having to spend up to four or five hours a day in the local supermarkets, just to keep cool enough not to get ill in the current severe heatwave the country is having.
They interviewed some really angry families from southern Italy who were saying they cannot afford to even swim in the sea due to the private beaches - they can cost up to twenty to thirty euros a day. So the ever decreasing spaces for public beaches are now completely overcrowded whilst right next door there are miles and miles of empty beaches with a few wealthy tourists on them - often being served champagne and cocktails from the hotels waiting staff.
Chekov - For what its worth I would have thought you were a socialist and a few others on the 'no' list to boot. I myself am not bloody sure what I am - although I do believe in the equitable distribution of wealth but I am also quite enamoured with a lot of what the Greens have to say which I can imagine would be a red rag to an old class warrior type socialist - if indeed that is what frolix is?
Frolix you say: ''Just to clarify on the ESA/disability etc stuff. I don't regard it as 'identity politics' as such, and it is one of many important single issues, but my point was that it shares many characteristics with previous causes celebres for the so-called left-wing. It's just the latest hobby-horse. It is no more or less (but imo probably much less) important than a living wage, catastrophic unemployment, the lack of affordable housing, wealth redistribution, unemployment benefit rates, fair taxation of the better-off etc etc. These things have much more impact on the nitty-gritty day-to-day lives of the working and non-working classes.''
Please tell me what 'left wing' groups care about the sick and disabled? What group has it as their hobby horse? Their own charities sold them out to a supposedly left wing government. Yes JSA matters of course it does - hugely - as does a living wage and affordable housing (massively important) etc, etc. But the thing the facts are that most of the right wing press and most of New Labs and the coalitions ire are right now saved for the sick and disabled. I haven't seen Purnell going on and on about those on unemployment but he ranted like a good 'un about the sick. Just as the new ministers are all about the 900'000 supposed fakers!
Now I have talked often enough and at length about how those who are unemployed are treated and targeted, however it makes me sick to see the most vulnerable in society - and the sick and disabled have all the problems as the other groups as as well as being physically or mentally under par - being treated as canon fodder for the latest right wing thinking.
You say you are just an armchair warrior and don't want to do a 'UT' meet up. I don't think that is what Sheff was talking about - many of us do things in our own time or are part of groups trying to acheive something that are separate to the UT. This spring there is a march for jobs being organised - you could go on that. It is specifically aimed at calling for full employment policies and work for all. Will you go?
Thanks for the link to the Convention of the Left in Brighton - I shall be there, although I anticipate much disagreement given my antipathy to Caroline Lucas, the CPB and Respect.
I think single issue politics is providing many people with an outlet for their frustrations with the inertia in British mainstream politics at present.Some people's primary focus is the environmment whilst for others fighting for the sick and disabled gives them something tangible to address.And hopefully one day the various groups will unite and from that a new politics of the Left will evolve.
This talk on today's thread about who on UT is and who isn,t a true socialist is something i can't take seriously.Like most people here i suspect i am extremely frustrated with the Labour Party at the moment.And as i've said before i'm somewhat indifferent to the current leadership battle because i don't see any of the contenders exorcising the party of it's New Labour demons and reconnecting with the working class people of this country.Which is why at the moment i think the best hope for the future may evolve from a coalition of those who are currently primarily involved in single issue politics.
Oooh Jen and Leni who do you think it is? Habib -I don't think it is who I think you are hinting it is. From what I have seen of said person (as in who I think you mean) online and in real life he/she is much more honest and straightforward than to hide behind some new name.
I would say that I would bet money on it that if said person thought I wasn't a socialist or that some of my ideas were a bit stupid he/she would just come right out and say so. Of course I might look a fool in a few days time if Frolix is revealed to be known to us all along. But I think Frolix is a lurker.
...And that colonel Mustard did it in the dining room with a candlestick. Nite all. xx
Oh and i should have added that the increasing social unrest that i think we will see in this country may-or may not-be a catalyst in bringing about greater unity in working class communities. Which should be a driving force for more effective grass roots community based activism as well.
I note that you are now backtracking to a significant extent from your initial broadside against the majority of posters here. This is good, as it means we can discuss things properly.
So, when you dismiss the ATOS/ESA campaign with "When there are so many battles to be fought, this is perhaps not the best one to fight from a PR perspective", which more attractive campaign do you have in mind? Which "more universal and recognisable cuts" should be opposed more vigorously, that most people will give a flying fuck about? I would have thought that in PR terms, having had many dealings with that trade over the years, the disabled and pensioners were two of the best groups to mobilise a defence around.
I assume you have a handy list of issues that are not "already tainted, and which will affect many more people", so what are they?
And surely, if we are talking about PR-attractive issues, then it is the opposite of useful to say that "emotion needs to take a back seat for the greater good". Emotion is at the root of good PR.
Besides, that last argument for putting attacks on the disabled on the back burner "for the greater good" has some nasty resonances with revolutionary vanguardism. You wouldn't be toying with those ideas, would you?
Scrap The Pledge Now’ awareness wristbands. August 22, 2010 by inspectorgadget
In June 2010, the Home Secretary Theresa May announced the scrapping of the Policing Pledge and Public Confidence targets. Both were seen as senseless window-dressing by a failing previous government, more concerned with spin than substance. The implications of the so-called Pledge and Confidence targets are a disaster, as officers are re-deployed from crime fighting teams to units set up to implement, audit and monitor these new targets.
After 13 years of slavish devotion to every whim of whichever Home Secretary happened to be in place (two former Policing Ministers and three Home Secretaries resigned during this period for various perceived or actual misconduct scandals) police officers across the UK assumed that our Chief Constables would do what they had always done, and obey this latest instruction.
At last, we thought, sense has prevailed on Marsham Street.
Imagine our shock and disbelief when many Chief Constables decided to either ignore the instruction or simply re-name the units, and carry on as before.
These awareness wristbands are your chance to show your outrage at this state of affairs. Right or wrong, Theresa May is the elected UK Government Home Secretary (Secretary of State for US readers) and what she says should be implemented. They are your chance to show that you support the scrapping of yet another bit of bureaucratic nonsense, imposed by people with no concept of real public service, to whom procedure is everything and outcome is nothing.
A pity speedkermit is on hol, I'll try to keep this for him. Nice to see such a tactic being used by coppers against Chief Constables, using the Home Secretary's own words !
First time I've been called a socialist actually, and I don't call myself anything ! One of my most politically aware and activist friends once said "Dave you're a real Anarchist" tho :)( That was as opposed to the self-styled ones in the family )
About ten years ago I did the PoliticalCompass test, and was more left and more libertarian than the Greens. Did it again today,almost off the scale for leftness .
Chekhov "Us and Them' . Yes, and could make for some interesting collaborations . When my good friend mentioned above was fighting extradition we had everyone locally on board right across the political spectrum ,except the Front National. Priests, peasants, everybody. She had a great time in jail too !
In your british context it might be an idea to learn from the frogs, who are very strong on Collectives and local organisation. Everyone welcome if they agree on the objectives. We're lucky because the habit never went away tho.
PCC, "Habib -I don't think it is who I think you are hinting it is." I think you're right, far too much humour and compassion to be who you think I think it is.
I didn't see her reply on a cuts panel, but same applies as i said above, need as tight a focus as poss.
axalotls ?
I think A4e is a good new step. That 2 mins C4 extract I put up pretty powerful in itself for wider distribution. The bit in the middle with the trainer-- "I've to look after number one, or I'll end up in one of those rooms" says a lot.
Panel on Agency Workers experiences in different environments . I think they even have them answering 999 calls inspectorgadget said. I read the first few pages of his book coming soon, crazy stuff.
orchidsoroysters 14 Aug 2010, 9:31AM The problem with the selling of the poor to commercial operations like A4E and Atos and the general thrust of this government in almost any direction is that The Guardian is now behind the curve - again. I haven't seen much about Atos in the Guardian but their coverage of A4E suggests that they are probably in favour of them. They've done a couple of articles which were uncritical puff pieces, singing the praises of Emma Harrison and her friends. A left leaning paper should have been giving them both barrels on a regular basis. Their courses are just fraud, pure and simple. I noticed this week (not here) they are actually being investigated for cooking the books. I'm sure that heads will roll. Maybe some junior manager who nobody likes anyway will get the push and create another opening for Blunkett or one of his buddies. Perhaps the Guardian has or hopes to get advertising work from them, maybe they just go to the same dinner parties, along with the Fairy Jobmother. Emma Harrison has made £35m personally from the A4E scam and lives in a mansion, parts of which she rents out to 28 tenants. I wonder if they're all on Housing Benefit? A true Dole Farmer never rests
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Black Monday for me -- first day of school. :-(
ReplyDeleteHave fun, everybody. I'd tell you to play nice, but...
Emma Harrison (A4E) on Radio 4, presently.
ReplyDelete@habib
ReplyDeleteRe one gun, two bullets, it's a game, like "what I'd do if I were world dictator". No-one's actually suggesting they're going to go out there and really kill people.
This post is also addressed to anyone from GCHQ, the CIA or any other alphabet-soup organisation who may be "listening".
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI wasn't nasty to you - I clearly said - to Paul that I didn't 'hate' you (how can I, I have not met you) and I tried to engage you in debate. My last post to you was very reasonable and asked you to consider the links given by Leni, LaRit et al.
YOu then ignored all the links given and the issues - completely!
YOu then, laughingly, said you are a 'contrarian' who ignores received wisdom - what!!!! YOu believe the DWP and the Mail for pity's sake. You are a mainstream mug basically.
You then say you are hurt by some of the bile written about you. Well for what it's worth Steve you have hurt me on behalf of myself and Mike Bach and my cousin and everyone else I know through various support groups who are ill, with your clear villifying of most needing to claim incap benefits.
You can be vile towards people you know without addressing them personally and there are different forms of violence.
You won't debate. You know PeterB for all his flouncing around etc does debate. He does come below the line of his articles and defend his position. You refuse to debate, you refuse to say whether or not - having nursed your own wife through cancer you feel emotions upon reading Mike Bachs story - if indeed you actually read it. You refuse to consider what you have been told about the new test being flawed. Something that the paper you keep mentioning - The Times - did a front page story and a double page spread on. It was clearly researched and Professor Gregg who wrote the test says it is not working correctly - not one answer from you on any of this - not one!
McMillan Cancer care are up in arms about this test. Does that mean anything to you? SO are the MS society, Parkinsons society, RNIB, RNID etc.
You are refusing to debate with us and then claim we are the ones who are being nasty and vicious. I don't actually know what to think about you. From when you posted on Cif I thought there were few posters who were as intransigent as you were. The whole point of debating is to possibly learn something or maybe even change ones mind. I have changed my views on many things since being on Cif and here - you clearly have not and also have no interest whatsoever in doing so. At all.
Hey Paul - I didn't think you were having a go at me, no worries. Just wondered if my reply to Steve had made you think it.
ReplyDeleteRe being friends with people with different views - i can but it would depend on the extremity of those views. I have a lot of friends and family are true blue Tories. I even have a mate who votes UKIP so am used to a good old political row.
I think it is different online because you don't know the person all you really get to know are their views.
Not being depressed isn't all it is cut out to be. ;)
ReplyDeleteNormally on a day like today (pouring with rain and very miserable) I would be half zombied or asleep but I find myself itching to do something to occupy my mind, I've got a couple of assignments to finish so I suppose I should do them but once they are done I am left at a total loose end.
It might sound like a flippant complaint but when you have been depressed and housebound for a long time you find that life has moved on without you, friends fall by the wayside and you forget how to enjoy yourself and be active.
Obviously I would rather be feeling as well as I do now but it brings its own challenges.
I am fearful about looking for work (even voluntary work) but I think the time has come to get on with it.
Hi Jen,
ReplyDeleteJust read your post. If you email Montana she will give you my email address and you can drop me a line if you want to 'talk' about starting some voluntary work. I understand the fears around it - which I guess are maybe multiple? Anyway if you wanna drop me a line please feel free.
Great news Jen,
ReplyDeleteI am pissed off inside and miserable. As I said before, it is probably for the best that I don't share all my personal issues here or on cif, which is why I quit.
I'm as depressed as hell- although I would not say mentally ill because most psychiatric diagnoses have been invented to please the US pharmaceutrical/insurance industry.
I haven't bothered applying for any jobs since June and frankly I don't see the point any more. My self esteem has taken such a hammering that I can't cope with the constant rejection
and humiliation and that is why I won't apply. The possibility of going around asking in shops, handing out my CV etc is now totally impossible. That is why people rely on the job centre, job hunting should always be objective and neutral, not informal because it discriminates against people like me who have had their self esteem eroded.
People like ATOS, A4E, the Daily Mail, Tories in general wonder why it is that so many people are on incap because of mental illness- simply becuase the jobseeking process grinds people down. If the govment really wants to end the number of people being mentally ill and long term unemployed then it needs to provide better conditions for unemployed people.
I can guarantee that nearly 100% of people who are unemployed for over 6 months will develop hallmarks of mental illness, although I still disagree with the diagnostic criteria.
Thanks Princess I will do that.
ReplyDeleteCharles I am sorry to hear the jobseeking is getting you so down, I can understand why you feel it is hopeless, I don't know if it will be the same for me as I have a fair bit of experience behind me, non of it in brilliant jobs but at least it is something.
I have just rang the local bingo hall and they are sending me an application form, I have no desire to work there but I am going to use it as a test of my self confidence and to see if I can bluff my way past the last two years not working (that is if I even get an interview I am not taking anything for granted).
I think I would be better getting some voluntary work first but from reading about your experiences with that it doesn't seem to be any simpler to get, I hope PCC can give me some good pointers.
I hope that you find some way of getting some kind of enjoyment out of your time, working is important for self esteem but it is not the be all and end all, I am a fine one to talk as I don't do much with my own time but I am working my way up to it.
Hi Jen and Charlie
ReplyDeleteSounds like you're both on a real downer.I get days like that when everything seems to get on top of me.The way i try and deal with it is to keep reminding myself that everything has a beginning,a middle and an end.So these bad times won,t go on forever.And it's also important not to isolate yourselves to much even if the only 'contact' you're getting is through blogging.When i've been under stress i've found that even that can help to focus my mind on other things.
Anyway here's an uplifting old skool tune for you both.
Princess, I made a personal promise to Leni to consider any other evidence with an open mind, and I will.
ReplyDeleteBut I won't be coming back here to tell anyone the outcome. You don't need moderators here. You have a very effective eviction committee, to whom terms like due process or fair trial are anathema.
You will end up with a self-selecting body of like-minded people. I have other interests in my life which prevail over any voyeuristic desire to stay around to watch the inevitable consequences.
@Steve
ReplyDeleteI said 'good morning' to you when you turned up here, and waited to see how you dealt with this place and its inhabitants.
You have now thoroughly demonstrated how you deal with them, which is badly.
So goodbye, Steve.
SteveH
ReplyDeleteThere are people here who don't agree with your views, I'm one of them. So far posters on here who have chosen to, have argued their case in a reasonable way and haven't told you to bugger off.
I don't know who frolix is or where they've come from but they do not represent the ethos of the site which is, except for one or two of the more egregious trolls who periodically fetch up here, not to moderate or prevent people with opposing views from having their say.
Have to say though, that I agree with the others when they conclude you're not a great one for engaging with the issues in an open minded way. That doesn't mean however, that I would seek ways of preventing you from posting and neither would any of the other regular posters here, of which frolix isn't one as far as I'm aware.
There seem to be quite a few friendly and not so friendly lurkers on this site who occasionally parachute in to have a natter or make waves - frolix seems to be one of the wave makers.
Hi all, prize fuckwit 0069 reporting for duty!
ReplyDeleteSorry to hear you're down in the dumps Nap & Jen.
King Soloman asked his wizards to provide him with a charm thet would make him happy when he was sad an sad when he was happy. They returned the next day with a simple gold ring.
'How's this work?' asks King S.
'Simple, your majesty,' quoth the Mages, 'When you wish it to have effect, take the ring from your finger and read the inscription...'
The inscription reads - This, too, will pass...
Steve,
ReplyDeleteNearly everyone here has been welcoming of you - nearly everyone (except me and Hank basically) said welcome to you. All of us - including me - discussed with you in just the way we have on Cif. I am a bit nonplussed as to be honest as to where you are getting this idea of you being persecuted from. It is really rather strange to be honest.
You are acting like a martyr, and clearly have a bit of a persecution complex.
One might also think that you didn't really feel comfortable once put on the spot re answering the questions put to you and reading the information that may challenge you.
Goodbye.
(PeterJ well said.)
I do have to say that Steve saying that he will consider the evidence provided by Leni but won't share his conclusions with her is one of the most childish things I have heard for a while.
ReplyDeleteI know you are. But what am I... : b
ReplyDeletePeterJ
ReplyDeleteThanks for the links you provided on waddya.I'll have a butchers at them later.
Come in, 0069, we've been expecting you...
ReplyDeleteWise words all round, my heart, for what it's worth goes, out to anybody having a shitty time of things, right now.
Charles, I know you're a fan of Thomas Hardy: "happiness is but an occasional episode in a general drama of pain", but I prefer to go with Khayyam: "Drink wine in this world and not the next, for none has returned to say which is best".
Spike, if I were World Dictator, it would be a fairly fucked up place, but one hell of a party.
Wise words, habib.
ReplyDeleteprincess:
ReplyDeleteSteve can fight his own battles, but as a relatively detached observer and occasional contributor here, I will say this: Untrusted will welcome anyone, but it suckles and embraces only its own kind.
That would be easy to live with were it not for the borderline inhuman viscousness with which out-of-step individuals are treated. And if you can't see this - among the defining qualities of this website - then you'll have difficulty seeing anything.
Now, you might reason that there is as much internecine squabbling as there is summary executions of off-message wretches, and that's true enough. But that would miss the point. Which is that the whilst the infantile dick-swinging between regulars resembles a common-or-garden family feud, the opprobrium heaped on trespassers amounts to summary guillotining.
It's not they can't debate, it's that the totalitarian impulse on show here day-in-day-out prevents them from so doing.
The problem for this site, however, is that in me you've found a cocksure arse that doesn't give a flying fuck for your pre-digested baton-down-the-hatches saintly-sadistic communality.
I have every intention of becoming the cuckoo in the nest.
Bracken, there is absolutely no arguing the fact that you are cuckoo.
ReplyDeleteHi All,
ReplyDeleteIs this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?
Can I go off on a tangent about cuckoos?
Well, you started it, Dotterel...
ReplyDeleteNo I didn't!
ReplyDeleteNext!
ReplyDeleteThat wasn't an argument it was a contradiction!
ReplyDeleteNo it wasn't.
ReplyDeleteYes it was, you're at it again!
ReplyDeleteI see playtime has started.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I'm not arguing with you unless you pay for the full hour.
ReplyDeleteBut my time's not up yet!
ReplyDeletea cocksure arse that doesn't give a flying fuck
ReplyDeleteWho'll murder his nest mates and sleep like a baby.
I have a bit on my plate at the moment, so will only be a sporadic visitor, I suspect that the internet conection at home will be unsustainable mid term... Good luck to all here, even shill & P-brax - the many headed Kracken!
(whistles to self)
ReplyDelete:-)
PeterB
ReplyDeleteThe problem for this site, however, is that in me you've found a cocksure arse that doesn't give a flying fuck for your pre-digested baton-down-the-hatches saintly-sadistic communality.
Peter -I acknowledge you have one virtue - the capacity to make me laugh! no small thing given the dismal times we inhabit. Thing is you really are not a problem for this site. Those who wish to engage with you can and those who don't will simply scroll on by.
I don't know a lot about cuckoos but as far as I'm concerned you can post on here as often as you like - more laughs for me!
For Habib
ReplyDeleteFor Paul
ReplyDeleteDotterel
ReplyDeleteHow dare you .I have much much higher standards than that.
Turm
ReplyDeleteI do wonder why the great brain and avid reader of the dictionnaire de métaphores éclatant, has chosen to be the cuckoo in the UT nest. You'd have thought our pitiful fuckwittery would be yards beneath him.
I would add that my cuckoo analogy relates entirely to ideas; this nest is infested with delusion.
ReplyDeleteThere was an old fellow named Steve
ReplyDeleteWho walked out of CiF in a peeve
But when on Untrusted
He trolled like a bastard
He still wasn't ordered to leave
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePeterB
ReplyDeleteHave you ever read Lautréamont? You should - you'll find a cornucopia of metaphors in Les Chants de Maldoror. I think you might enjoy it too. When I read your pieces I am reminded of a phrase from the book,
He sings for himself alone and not for his fellow man
What Sheff - you think you sing for your fellow man? Including Steve Hill, by chance?
ReplyDeleteEvening All
ReplyDeletei see on waddya J has rejected mikebach's suggestion - again.
I wonder what the tone of CiF will be this time next year once the cuts have started to bite ?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure of the protocol here (the storm over "us" being/not being an evil gang of group-thinking bullies - rages on), but I'm going to have to applaud you for that one.
Made I titter.
Huzzah !
Fuckinell, I come back and it sounds as though there have been fights breaking out all over. Have not read over the past few days.
ReplyDeleteSteve, as far as I'm concerned (for the small amount that's worth) you are welcome to post here but don't expect many people to agree with your views on various topics such as welfare, corporatism and tax policy. You might have some common ground with the cuckoo.
PeterB
the borderline inhuman viscousness with which out-of-step individuals are treated
D'you mean to say that we oil them before roasting?
The Untrusted: we don't ban people, but you may be subjected to a viscosity rating.
ReplyDeletePeterJ
ReplyDeleteFrom last night.
I have not read the Spirit Level . Don't know how well or otherwise arguments are presented or if stats are misused. So won't comment on book.
There has been a lot of research - experimental and observatioal/experience based - on why populations move to the right when a society is under economic stress or external threat.
Throughout history a move towards what we generally call right wing politics has produced very unequal societies , often manufacturing a scapegoat - this focuses attention on a small group and allows rage born of fear and sense of imminent loss to be directed against this group rather than against incompetent or repressive leaders.
In these situations populations align themselves for or against - some of the most evil rhetoric in history comes from the scapegoating movement - targets vary but the language remains the same.
Basically the theme is "get rid of this group and all will be well. This group is the cause of all our problems. Trust me as leader and I will eradicate/disempower this vicious group of people hiding in our midst "
In a society with more evenly disrtributed wealth and power this is less likely to happen - the causative factors are not there.
The fear of autocratic leaders who have murdered and dispossessed - and that of the supporters and enablers - is that should they lose power they will become the helpless victims. They increase the terror to protect themselves.
Unequal societies are dangerous. Today in Britain we have a large group of people who fear loss of economic advantage - these are the economic middle rankers - they have the most tp lose if the coming economic pain is evenly distributed - it is from this group that most of the hate speech is coming. Cameron knows he can wind them up and use them to support his measures. Look at the vicious language across the boards.
I see echoes of the Inquisition - witch hunts - antisemitism in the condemnatin of the sick and disabled. What do you think will be the outcome of 10 million + people living at subsistence level ?
The super rich - for the most part - will be untouched.
Hmmm... viscosity rating. Liking it.
ReplyDelete5 Chip Oil
4 Golden Syrup
3 Black Treacle
2 Bitumen
1 BP
Leni
ReplyDeleteThere has been a lot of research - experimental and observatioal/experience based - on why populations move to the right when a society is under economic stress or external threat.
And I would argue that right-wingers actively promote economic stress and/or external threat to widen their influence.
Hehe - BW, that needs to be saved for future refence.
ReplyDeletePeterB
ReplyDeleteDo you know the games theory conundrum.
Two people are tied together obove a steep and crumbling cliff. The rules state the the first one to cry 'uncle' is the loser. The one who keeps silent is the winner and will get a huge financial reward. The ideal is that both stay silent and both will live - neither will get a reward other than continued existence. I think we call this cooperation in dangerous times.
Some may edge towards the cliff trying to frighten other into shouting. The danger of miscalculating is that both will die.
They could reach an agreement whereby one shouts - gets the reward and both live and share the proceeds.
The point is that trying to push the other over the edge in the false belief that you will profit means you will go down too. Think about it.
Indeed... thauma "Pure BP!"
ReplyDeleteOff to cook some chips.
How was the trip Thauma?
ReplyDeleteDid you have fun?
typo
ReplyDeleteThe IDEA is that both stay silent
Thauma
ReplyDeleteBrussels report please - was it totally entrancing ? Never been to B - tv only ever shows parliament buildings - I assume there is more to it than that.
Thauma
ReplyDeleteAgree that many threats - internal + external - are deliberately created.
jeremyjames 23 Aug 2010, 6:11PM -- got there first !
ReplyDeleteI hate the bloody things. Absolutely hate them. Like I hate automatic ticket barriers.
I like cashiers because you can try to make them laugh and ticket collectors because sometimes they smile.
I like human beings. (Bloody Luddite).
What a totally crappy nonsense; unemployment likely to go up so we replace jobs with machines.
Daft. Utter f*ck*ng daft.
You callin' me super-viscous, BW? ;-)
ReplyDeleteI think we need a separate unctuousness rating in case Seaton or MacShane ever turn up. It could be like Top Trumps.
Jen - trip was fantastic, thanks! Saw fuck-all of Brussels except to notice that it's got a very odd hodge-podge of architecture. Apparently we were staying in the ex-pat area and I am not sure that I met a single person who was actually Belgian. Went into a pub (the "Hairy Canary") expecting to practise my French and discovered that all the staff are Irish!
At the wedding, we counted 13 nationalities out of around 50 guests. There might have been a token Belgian there, but if so I didn't meet him/her. Most people seem to regard it as a fairly pleasant port of call but not a destination.
The mister and I decided immediately that we enjoy being country bumpkins and that city life is hell on earth.
Afternoon all,
ReplyDeleteOn that note Thauma, if anybody is feeling the absence of a Seaton/McShane type character in their daily lives to shout and swear at, you could do a lot worse than John Rentoul over at the Indy....
Poor old stevehill! He's used to getting hundreds of recommendations for his vacuous shite on braindead Cif, and here some/most people are saying that he's a closed-minded, woefully uninformed moron. So he's taking his ball away and won't play any more. Boo fucking hoo. And if he thinks that this place is the 'hard left', then he's more deluded than Peter Bracken. This place has alienated more socialists than Dave Cameron has had expensive lunches. It's now just a (very guilty) LibDem middle-class whinge-fest. You'd fit right in, Steve! Stick around.
ReplyDeletefrolix8
ReplyDeleteThis place has alienated more socialists than Dave Cameron has had expensive lunches.
Really, Frolix? You don't think AnneTan is socialist? Nor the Princess, nor the Duke (OK, a bit of a laugh at the monikers), nor Leni, nor Sheff, nor MsChin, nor Bitterweed, nor Montana herself, nor ....
Yes, we have had two or three who don't think we're angry enough. I'm sorry for it as I enjoyed their contributions while they still enjoyed this site (and often some embittered ones), but I personally don't see how it is possible to win over enough people to make a political difference with pure anger. You have to reach the ones in the middle with your arguments - and attacking those very people is highly counter-productive.
@Paul:
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame you couldn't 'be arsed' to read my post, you might have learned something. We will never reach understanding whilst you continue to refuse to engage on a most basic level. It's just a bit depressing to read your responses - it's worse than trying to engage with Steve "throw my toys out of the pram" Hill!!
Your blind spot is, from what I can gather, an inablilty to even contemplate that we live in a world dominated by masculine culture and ideology - it is that which is especially damaging to women, but equally damaging to men - it is what Capitalism thrives on and the perpetuation of inequality between men and women is one of the most dehumanising aspects which damages all our lives. You cannot call yourself a socialist without acknowledging this fundamental fact.
@TurminderX:
ReplyDeleteBeautiful quote that one above. Thank you.
Sorry to hear that both Jen and NapK in such low spirits..... I can empathise as I've been engaged in a long struggle these past few months.... not easy. ;(
@PeterB:
ReplyDelete"I'll be the cuckoo"
Shouldn't that be flying over the nest???
Frolix8:
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to say - you're such a charmer ;)
"This place has alienated more socialists than Dave Cameron has had expensive lunches. It's now just a (very guilty) LibDem middle-class whinge-fest."
ReplyDeleteFuck me, are the rest of you middle class on here? I mean, it's nothing to hate you for, but I thought we were all potless and trying to find a laugh where we could.
By the way, frolix8, if Sheff says "You're just a twat." It really is time to take stock. If I say it, it's just a par performance.
LaRit
ReplyDeleteCuckoo is an interesting one I think.
Cuckoos build no nests, they parasitise the nest of others leaving their youngsters in foster care - this of course uses up the resources of the smaller bird at no cost to the cuckoo.
Cuckoo populations thrives on the backs on the smaller, hard working species.
Cuckoos add a recognisable sound to the landscape but do little more - noisey, showy things. Their affairs are conducted in secret. Their agenda is theft.
Spike, that poem about Steve was very funny 10/10. You do know that he has absolutely no sense of humour, though?
ReplyDeleteLeni
ReplyDeleteCuckoos build no nests, they parasitise the nest of others leaving their youngsters in foster care - this of course uses up the resources of the smaller bird at no cost to the cuckoo.
Cuckoo populations thrives on the backs on the smaller, hard working species.
So apt in the circs...and very well described by you.
My view on visitors here or newcomers is that we should talk to them - why not? We may disagree on things but there are bound to be points of contact.
ReplyDeleteTrolls who swing by with a tirade of invective and insults are rather funny but sad - I imagine they feel free to unleash on line fears and hatreds they keep hidden IRL.
Nice one on the cuckoos, Leni!
ReplyDeleteReally, Frolix? You don't think AnneTan is socialist? Nor the Princess, nor the Duke (OK, a bit of a laugh at the monikers), nor Leni, nor Sheff, nor MsChin, nor Bitterweed, nor Montana herself, nor ....
ReplyDeleteAnne yes, princess no, duke yes, leni yes, sheff yes, bitterweed yes, montana no, thauma no, jay no, swifty no, BB no, nap no, paul no, peterj no, peterb no, dotterel no, larit no, chekhov no, james no, habib no, frog yes, philippa no, gandolfo no etc.
Sorry, but you did ask, and it's only my opinion as a previously silent observer. How many British people here voted LibDem? And how is that working out for you all? And how much time is spent here discussing identity politics - women, blacks, muslims, pakistanis, gypsies. And the latest trendy 'minority' is the sick and disabled. Yeah, it's a real shame what the Tories and the LibDems are doing to them, but half of you voted for them, and whinging about it is just a plaster on the sore of the guilty conscience of the ex-working class that forgot that socialism meant solidarity and a living wage and a real economic struggle, not just jumping on the latest bandwagon to prove your street credentials to other wishy-washy 'liberals'. You fucked up big time and it's too fucking late to say now that you really care. You took your eye off the real ball, and just wanted to be 'nice', and now you're all shafted. Tough shit - it's your own fault.
I'm confused frolix8, should I ever wear a tee shirt with a suit jacket? Black shirt, black jacket, but I'm, not sure. I only ask, because you seem to know everything about everything.
ReplyDeleteUh huh.. the sick and disabled as trendy minority.. identity politics at it's worst, eh?
ReplyDeleteIt's only an opinion, habib, not a claim to omnipotence. I thought that this forum was open to alternative views - although the responses from eg. leni (a funny but sad troll), sheff (a twat) and yourself leads me to believe that you're just a small incestuous group who circle the wagons when challenged. It's neither impressive nor edifying. And if this is the future of 'socialism' (pace leni and sheff, two of the 'socialists' on this blog), then we are truly fucked.
ReplyDeleteWell, frolix, I disagree with most of your assessment on various posters' allegiances - but it is for them to say where they stand.
ReplyDeleteIn fact I did vote LibDem in the last election. Their manifesto, manifestly betrayed since then, was to the left of Labour. I could not vote for a party that had gone into Iraq, nor one that had started the current workfare climate, and etc. Obviously there was no question of voting for the Tories. (The Tory candidate won by a significant margin.)
If another election were held tomorrow I would vote Green, although I have my doubts about some of their policies. They are never going to win a seat in my district, but the three main parties are fucking anathema to me now.
As for the sick and disabled, the LDs in no way indicated in their manifesto that they would wage war on them in the way that Labour had and the way you knew the Tories would.
I don't have much time for "identity politics" but if you are dismissing throwing ill people off IB/ESA/whatever as "identity politics" then fuck off.
frolix8
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure I've never claimed to be a socialist, but it's still worth knowing that I've failed to meet the criteria for whatever your definition of it is though, so thanks for that!!
And I'll be sure to consider your input next time I have to answer a 'what's your political persuasion according to random or anonymous Internet posters' type question!
What frol are yr criteria for deciding that bitterweed is a socialist but Jay isn't or MW isn't... just out of interest
ReplyDeletefrolix
ReplyDeleteYour views are welcome but invective adds nothing to your thesis.
I don't see how supporting the sick and disabled is 'anti-socialist'.
Please explain.
Oh FFS, after reading Frolix' 20:29 I don't know why I bothered.
ReplyDeleteLook frolix - all you've done since you appeared is pontificate about our shortcomings - no opinions or argument from you, apart from your views who might or might not be a socialist. So please don't expect us to take you seriously.
ReplyDeleteIf, however, you choose to engage in a debate or even start one, I'm sure there are people on here who would be happy to engage with you.
Kiz
the sick and disabled as trendy minority
Seems, as far as frolix is concerned, that would be the case. No evidence from him/her that s/he gives a shit about anything other than the sound of of his/her own voice.
This site has 57 followers but there are only about 15-20 regular posters. Ok, we can accept that some people just got bored or disinterested, but is it fair to say that others left for other reasons?
ReplyDeleteIMO, yes there is a passive selection policy on this site, at least ideologically, coming from the left. The problem with the left, as always in history is that everyone has their own interpretation of it and thinks theirs is the one true faith. Even on this one blogsite, we have distinctions between, say, the HankScorpio brand of leftism, the AnneTan brand of leftism, etc, even FFS Peter 'I write as a supporter of the left' Bracken.
The reality is that left/right have no meaning, neither do class. My own politics are a mixture of right and left and I see no contradictions in what I believe- they are what I believe to be 'just' on a personal level and a societal level.
Like I said before Frolix8 - you're such a smooth talker ;) It makes a change not to be called a 'socialist' for once... clearly I'm really a rabid Tory or Nu-Labber-Lubber underneath, in your humble opinion, naturlich!
ReplyDeleteLeni - brilliant bit on the cuckoo - very pat for our Pete ;)
@frolix8
ReplyDeleteAt the last election I voted Labour. It was the first election there's been while I've lived in this constituency; in my previous constituency in 2005 I exchanged votes with a LibDem in Dorset to maximise the anti-Tory tactical vote. In 2001 and 1997 I voted LibDem in a successful anti-Tory tactical voting campaign; the Labour vote was risible there. In all other elections, Labour. Starting in February 1974.
As for political views, I have them on a wide range of subjects. Could you provide a checklist so that I can work out your definition of socialist, and decide whether or not I agree?
apparently not sheff.. But I'm sure they feel they've achieved sth by winding people up here.. It looks like it's their raison d'etre
ReplyDeleteShould have read 'apt'.... I think I've developed late-stage dyslexia or summat....
ReplyDeletefrolix, most of us voted lib dem becuase they were to the left of the labour party. (Altohugh I refuse to be pigeonholed into any left/right category I have no probs with sensible and more importantly humane, pragmatic and intellectual leftist policies) That they changed could not have been foreseen.
ReplyDelete'frolix' seems awfully familiar to me.
ReplyDeleteRight, well, am knackered after travelling all day. Off to my bourgeois bed. G'night all fellow travellers.
ReplyDeleteAye Kiz...yet another troll. We seem to have them in arriving shoals these days.
ReplyDeleteNap
I don't visit many blogs - I have a life IRl and i just don't have the time but I don't think what you describe is that unusual. People come and go. And yes, our politics are left wing and that's why we're here.
Some of us have now met up in the real world several times and I liked everyone who came - decent people with decent ideas and good company to boot.
Jenni
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
Hmm, Jen... judgemental, sanctimonious, bringing skin colour and race into things, playing the "I'm more left than you are" card... nope can't think of anyone like that round these here parts.
ReplyDeleteNighty-night Thauma ;)
ReplyDeleteMost of us voted Lib Dem?
ReplyDeleteNot I.
And I won't be voting Lib Dem this Thursday in the local election either.
Worth repeating, sheff:
ReplyDeleteSome of us have now met up in the real world several times and I liked everyone who came - decent people with decent ideas and good company to boot.
Sheff
ReplyDelete"And yes, our politics are left wing and that's why we're here."
nothing wrong with that, but I thought Montana founded the UT as a place to continue posting after Cif threads had closed.
Just to clarify on the ESA/disability etc stuff. I don't regard it as 'identity politics' as such, and it is one of many important single issues, but my point was that it shares many characteristics with previous causes celebres for the so-called left-wing. It's just the latest hobby-horse. It is no more or less (but imo probably much less) important than a living wage, catastrophic unemployment, the lack of affordable housing, wealth redistribution, unemployment benefit rates, fair taxation of the better-off etc etc. These things have much more impact on the nitty-gritty day-to-day lives of the working and non-working classes.
ReplyDeleteSocialism has always been about an equitable distribution of wealth and opportunity, and the aspiration has always been that this can be acheived within a 'fair' political system. This has not been acheived and and this basic goal has often been forgotten in a blur of identity politics and (recently) empty talk about electoral reform. The 'classless society' is a myth, but many believe in it, or pretend to, and have actively promoted the concept (like NewLabour and now the Tories.) It is, of course, bullshit - British society has probably never been so class-ridden and class-determined than it is now. It surpasses even Victorian times in terms of education, career, earning potential. Predicating arguments on this castle of sand is pointless - buying into this fallacy is a mistake, but one that the 'middle classes' are happy to embrace. Guardian journalists are a prime example of this - Bunting, Toynbee, etc. - articles about Lithuanian nannies and the problems of going on holiday. We're all middle-class now - except we're fucking not! Class and equality are primarily economic issues, as is socialism, it's got fuck all to do with the colour of your skin or your sexual orientation or the ability to work from home or paternity leave. These are convenient distractions from the main prize and serve the ststus quo ruling class extremely well.
Until socialists focus on what is important rather than what is trendy and expedient, then there is no going forward.
btw, kizbot (and others), the criteria for being a socialist are more or less defined by the definition of 'socialist'. Look it up somewhere. And sheff, you don't need to take me seriously, I really don't give a fuck, but your dismissive, very defensive attitude kind of proves my point. Circle those wagons! There's an intruder who doesn't toe the line!
Yes, I know what the definition of socialist is. I wasn't asking you for one. I was asking what are your criteria for decding that bitters is and jay isn't.. that was my question. What factors lead you to conclude that MW or princess don't fit the definition in your book.. but some others do. Your list seems somewhat arbitrary... not least because a few on it have not claimed to be socialist anyways.
ReplyDelete"Circle those wagons! There's an intruder who doesn't toe the line!"
ReplyDeleteNah, just a cowboy making yee ha! noises and firing into the air.
And sheff, you don't need to take me seriously, I really don't give a fuck, but your dismissive, very defensive attitude kind of proves my point. Circle those wagons! There's an intruder who doesn't toe the line!
ReplyDeleteclearly you don't give a fuck - no need to reiterate it,and I'm not being defensive at all. Until your post above - most of which I agree with, you hadn't bothered to engage in debate but merely slagged us off. What kind of response do you expect? We get so many loons appearing on here how can we know what makes you different, more worth engaging with?
These iniquitous condem attacks on the most vulnerable, the sick and disabled are amongst the first and are a powerful indication of the way the wind's blowing - which is part of the reason people on the UT have been banging on about it. Quite apart from the fact that people here have some experience and personal interest in issues.
There seem to be the first stirrings of resistance around the country (at last) and if you've got ideas about how to build on this, please feel free to put them forward.
hi frolix
ReplyDeleteDisability benefits is not likely to be a short term fashionable issue. It will be ongoing - with increasing numbers of people being affected.
Numbers on incap from wc exceed those from elsewhere. Heavy duty work in high risk jobs explains this. Repetitive work can impact on muscle groups and joints.
long term illness can strike anybody as can accidents.
With the expected numbers of unemployed set to increase forcing sick ans disabled into the employment market will impact on the lower income groups more than on high earners. Low earners tend to be congregated in already impoverished areas - former mining and manufacturing - this will further weaken and marginalise wc communities.
These communities have no political representation. The unions do not fight for either the unemployed or disabled. They fight to save jobs - who fights to create them ?
Trying to protect the sick and disabled is part of trying to bring attention to their needs and also to get a full debate (genuine) around the plight of the wc - disempowered and ignored.
Why should we not demand investment in these areas ? Why should socialists not fight for the most marginalised - and currently the most negatively targetted?
I do not need to mention compassion and humanity I hope - these are not alien concepts to socialists.
frolix8 - disability is certainly not a hobby-horse for the many around here who are or have been disabled/ill in some way, or for those who are professionally or voluntarily involved.
ReplyDeleteI forget who recommended this site, PeterJ perhaps ,
The government has made repeated assurances that such reforms will provide better value for money and will improve efficiency, though the evidence strongly suggests otherwise. A parliamentary Health Committee report released earlier this year noted that since the introduction of internal markets and private finance, management and administrative costs in the NHS have soared, going from a traditional low of 5% to about 14% of overall expenditure by 2005, probably more by now. In the United States, which essentially has a privatised healthcare system, administrative costs are over 30% of overall expenditure, though much lower in the state-run Medicare system. There is also no evidence that the private sector in the UK is more efficient than the public sector; in fact, where detailed studies have been done, such as in Australia, the conclusion reached is that “hospital care in the public sector is provided at higher levels of technical, allocative and dynamic efficiency than in the private sector”.
NewLeftProject
Public opinion is very much for the NHS. There is a link to an interesting study at Edinburgh University , quote from it --
The vision of the future is one in which corporate interests will be given incentives to select patients, time-limit care, sell top-up insurance, and introduce charges for some elements of care no longer provided by the NHS. We may even see the development of practices competing against one another for members (patients), just like US health insurers. That’s a chilling prospect for the elderly, those with chronic illness and people with mental illness and long-term needs, who are often of no commercial interest to the corporates because of their high healthcare costs.
I don't mind whether people are communist,socialist, or whatever as long as we are fighting the corporate take-over .
"...but I thought Montana founded the UT as a place to continue posting after Cif threads had closed."
ReplyDeleteSo she did Nap - but she has never tried (to my knowledge) to prevent UT's organic development, despite some misguided calls to do so.
Sorry to read that you and Jen are having a struggle with "the black dog" - best wishes in that regard. I wouldn't wish to make light of distress but there is a fucking lot to be depressed about in contemporary Britain and your certainly not alone...
turm I hope your Internet connection can be maintained and that work finds it's way to your door.
leni - problem with cuckoos is that they throw other folks eggs out the nest!
Hi Deano-- how's the building work going ? I don't have to show my son how to do it, he's a carpenter:)
ReplyDeleteI haven't said hello to Nap and Jen, but thinking of you Turm and all others in straits .
Giyus just posted cut n paste of UT conversation between stevehill and atoms .
Disability benefits is not likely to be a short term fashionable issue. It will be ongoing - with increasing numbers of people being affected.
ReplyDeleteThe ageing population means more people will be disabled in some way, for longer.
Hi deano nice to see you around.
ReplyDeletefrog I think atomboy has created a monster, randomly reporting posts is giyus new hobby.
Nah, just a cowboy making yee ha! noises and firing into the air.
ReplyDeleteSorry habib, I didn't realise you had a monolopy on that sort of vapid thing here. It's kind of hard to work out who is the most inconsequential poster on UT. Good song though, but if it's cowboys yer after, try cowboy song
leni, I certainly don't disagree with protecting the vulnerable, how could I? But this almost exclusive focus on IB etc is not doing much for the majority of the 'disenfranchised' who will suffer under the forthcoming savage cuts. It's perhaps a good poster-child for the viciousness of this government, but what about JSA, public sector job cuts, creeeping privatisation of the NHS, closing of libraries, cut-backs in schools, easing off on prosecuting tax avoidance, scrapping of winter fuel allowance, etc et . I could go on indefinitely. Much as I despise ATOs and what is happening, I think it's only a small part of a much more pernicious agenda, and when there are so many battles to be fought, this is perhaps not the best one to fight from a PR perspective. Depressing, I know, but to counteract the sucessful Tory spin of these 'unfortunate but necessary cuts, we're all in this together' trope in the public perception, the oposition needs to focus more on more universal and recognisable cuts which will affect ordinary people more, and which they will relate to more as part of their lives. That is unfortunately the dirty reality of politics in British society today. Few people in the UK really give a flying fuck about people on IB, DLA etc (see stevehill). It's a question of perception and PR. If you confront the government on issues which are not already tainted, and which will affect many more people, then when the cuts really bite, there is more chance that you can bring this government down. The disability issue simply won't do it, because most people simply don't care about it.
Sorry to be so negative about this, but I think that being ruthlessly practical now is essential. Emotion needs to take a back seat for the greater good.
Hi jen -- I asked Giyus to work on the mikebach/ATOS , I've known him since he appeared, but no result yet . I'd add pompous to your earlier description of childish behaviour...
ReplyDeletehi, frog2, just saw your post. I agree that it is not just a 'hobbyhorse' for many people on UT. I wasn't being dismissive, and apolgise it seemed so, but the handful of people here who are involved either personally or professionally are not the Great British Public. They're a sub-set of a sub-set. This is not equivalent to the suffragette movement. See my last post - your thoughts on it are most welcome.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletefrolix
ReplyDeleteThe problem is deeper than bringing this gvt. down. who would replace them ..
there is hardly a paper slice between the political parties.
The disability argument is only a small part of the problem I agree. The disabled are the most easily attacked - vulnerable and unable to defend themselves we have to support them.
it is in fact a cross party issue - I imagine support for their cause comes from several sectors. This does not mean we can expect unity into other areas .
I don't think anybody here thinks that this alone is the only front to fight on. There are concerns here around all the areas you mention.
Sorry to be so negative about this, but I think that being ruthlessly practical now is essential. Emotion needs to take a back seat for the greater good.
ReplyDeleteOK frolix
There's a building unity conference in Manchester 24-25 September. Gonna come? We'll certainly need to be ruthlessly practical to make this lot work together effectively.
Link to Convention of the left
ReplyDeleteFrolix8
ReplyDelete"It's kind of hard to work out who is the most inconsequential poster on UT."
Well you can fuck right off if you won't even give me that!
Sorry habib, but you should really be judged by a jury of your peers. I must stand above the fray, my opinion here is apparently of no value :0) Good luck!
ReplyDeleteHabib
ReplyDelete"It's kind of hard to work out who is the most inconsequential poster on UT."
Well you can fuck right off if you won't even give me that!
S/he's just being a snooty sod habibi...
Can,t get this tune out of my head.
ReplyDeleteCome off it frolix - now you're actually taking the trouble to say something people are engaging with you.
ReplyDeleteAnd what about the meeting I mentioned? Are you coming? If you can't get to Manchester there's one in Brighton and others around the country. I've posted some info about them on our ATL page. Do you actually do anything or are you just an armchair warrior?
Hello. CiF gossip gets more and more bizarro as time goes by. :-)
ReplyDelete"Sorry habib, but you should really be judged by a jury of your peers."
ReplyDeleteJeez, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
sheff, I read the very interesting info you posted, but I can't make any meetings, although I'd like to. I'm just an armchair warrior, I guess, so I won't get to meet all the other UT'ers who no doubt will travel all round the country to attend these meetings. Bummer!
ReplyDeleteThauma - ''We don't ban people but you may be subjected to a viscosity rating''. Love it!
ReplyDeleteLeni your post at 18.21 was brilliant.
Frolix - Oooh I am intrigued why am I not a socialist? Not that I mind, mind. I don't know if I would call myself one - is that why I am not one? Or is it because I joined the Greens instead of Labour? Do you think there is anything socialist about New Labour? Or should I join the SWP? Anyway whatever re the who is and isn't socialist bit - you could bung that up for me on Cif and the Telegraph where I am constantly being called a 'deluded socialist'.
My position - Marx was spot on about the issues in capitalism. However I think the solutions are more complex as we face ecological issues too, so I think the left has to be about socialist principles as well as green principles.
Oh and by the way your thing about IB - I have not just focused on that - I have repeatedly talked about JSA, the villifying of the sick AND the unemployed and I have talked about social housing and the employment situation - its all in my posts so what more do you want from people?
Anyway - who are you?
Leni: ''The problem is deeper than bringing this gvt. down. who would replace them ..
ReplyDeletethere is hardly a paper slice between the political parties.''
Spot on. A Labour party led by any of the current contenders would be minor shades of grey better than this lot that is all. And at the end of the day both of them believed in extreme cuts. Labours were only slightly shy of this lots which are still the most extreme cuts seen in any developed nation in times of a major downturn.
My mum was telling me she saw a report recently from Italy about how old ladies who cannot afford even a cheap air con unit in their apartments are having to spend up to four or five hours a day in the local supermarkets, just to keep cool enough not to get ill in the current severe heatwave the country is having.
They interviewed some really angry families from southern Italy who were saying they cannot afford to even swim in the sea due to the private beaches - they can cost up to twenty to thirty euros a day. So the ever decreasing spaces for public beaches are now completely overcrowded whilst right next door there are miles and miles of empty beaches with a few wealthy tourists on them - often being served champagne and cocktails from the hotels waiting staff.
Just about sums it all up really.
Self portrit of Colinthestoat
ReplyDeleteAmazing what you can find on the internet!
Come back Stoaty all is forgiven.....well nearly all.
Private beaches, FFS don't give Cameron ideas !
ReplyDeleteChekov - For what its worth I would have thought you were a socialist and a few others on the 'no' list to boot. I myself am not bloody sure what I am - although I do believe in the equitable distribution of wealth but I am also quite enamoured with a lot of what the Greens have to say which I can imagine would be a red rag to an old class warrior type socialist - if indeed that is what frolix is?
ReplyDeleteFrolix you say: ''Just to clarify on the ESA/disability etc stuff. I don't regard it as 'identity politics' as such, and it is one of many important single issues, but my point was that it shares many characteristics with previous causes celebres for the so-called left-wing. It's just the latest hobby-horse. It is no more or less (but imo probably much less) important than a living wage, catastrophic unemployment, the lack of affordable housing, wealth redistribution, unemployment benefit rates, fair taxation of the better-off etc etc. These things have much more impact on the nitty-gritty day-to-day lives of the working and non-working classes.''
Please tell me what 'left wing' groups care about the sick and disabled? What group has it as their hobby horse? Their own charities sold them out to a supposedly left wing government. Yes JSA matters of course it does - hugely - as does a living wage and affordable housing (massively important) etc, etc. But the thing the facts are that most of the right wing press and most of New Labs and the coalitions ire are right now saved for the sick and disabled. I haven't seen Purnell going on and on about those on unemployment but he ranted like a good 'un about the sick. Just as the new ministers are all about the 900'000 supposed fakers!
Now I have talked often enough and at length about how those who are unemployed are treated and targeted, however it makes me sick to see the most vulnerable in society - and the sick and disabled have all the problems as the other groups as as well as being physically or mentally under par - being treated as canon fodder for the latest right wing thinking.
You say you are just an armchair warrior and don't want to do a 'UT' meet up. I don't think that is what Sheff was talking about - many of us do things in our own time or are part of groups trying to acheive something that are separate to the UT. This spring there is a march for jobs being organised - you could go on that. It is specifically aimed at calling for full employment policies and work for all. Will you go?
@Sheff
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link to the Convention of the Left in Brighton - I shall be there, although I anticipate much disagreement given my antipathy to Caroline Lucas, the CPB and Respect.
@heyhabib: pistols at dawn. I'm not having you walk away with "The Most Inconsequential Poster Award" with out a fight.
ReplyDeleteI name Sheffpixie as my "second"!
You get to name the weapons and the site.
Evening all
ReplyDeleteI think single issue politics is providing many people with an outlet for their frustrations with the inertia in British mainstream politics at present.Some people's primary focus is the environmment whilst for others fighting for the sick and disabled gives them something tangible to address.And hopefully one day the various groups will unite and from that a new politics of the Left will evolve.
This talk on today's thread about who on UT is and who isn,t a true socialist is something i can't take seriously.Like most people here i suspect i am extremely frustrated with the Labour Party at the moment.And as i've said before i'm somewhat indifferent to the current leadership battle because i don't see any of the contenders exorcising the party of it's New Labour demons and reconnecting with the working class people of this country.Which is why at the moment i think the best hope for the future may evolve from a coalition of those who are currently primarily involved in single issue politics.
Oooh Jen and Leni who do you think it is? Habib -I don't think it is who I think you are hinting it is. From what I have seen of said person (as in who I think you mean) online and in real life he/she is much more honest and straightforward than to hide behind some new name.
ReplyDeleteI would say that I would bet money on it that if said person thought I wasn't a socialist or that some of my ideas were a bit stupid he/she would just come right out and say so. Of course I might look a fool in a few days time if Frolix is revealed to be known to us all along. But I think Frolix is a lurker.
...And that colonel Mustard did it in the dining room with a candlestick. Nite all. xx
Oh and i should have added that the increasing social unrest that i think we will see in this country may-or may not-be a catalyst in bringing about greater unity in working class communities. Which should be a driving force for more effective grass roots community based activism as well.
ReplyDelete@Princess: like I said the left versus right is redundant.
ReplyDeleteThe new politics is "Us and Them"
It's not going to be pretty!
@frolix8
ReplyDeleteI note that you are now backtracking to a significant extent from your initial broadside against the majority of posters here. This is good, as it means we can discuss things properly.
So, when you dismiss the ATOS/ESA campaign with "When there are so many battles to be fought, this is perhaps not the best one to fight from a PR perspective", which more attractive campaign do you have in mind? Which "more universal and recognisable cuts" should be opposed more vigorously, that most people will give a flying fuck about? I would have thought that in PR terms, having had many dealings with that trade over the years, the disabled and pensioners were two of the best groups to mobilise a defence around.
I assume you have a handy list of issues that are not "already tainted, and which will affect many more people", so what are they?
And surely, if we are talking about PR-attractive issues, then it is the opposite of useful to say that "emotion needs to take a back seat for the greater good". Emotion is at the root of good PR.
Besides, that last argument for putting attacks on the disabled on the back burner "for the greater good" has some nasty resonances with revolutionary vanguardism. You wouldn't be toying with those ideas, would you?
Scrap The Pledge Now’ awareness wristbands.
ReplyDeleteAugust 22, 2010 by inspectorgadget
In June 2010, the Home Secretary Theresa May announced the scrapping of the Policing Pledge and Public Confidence targets. Both were seen as senseless window-dressing by a failing previous government, more concerned with spin than substance. The implications of the so-called Pledge and Confidence targets are a disaster, as officers are re-deployed from crime fighting teams to units set up to implement, audit and monitor these new targets.
After 13 years of slavish devotion to every whim of whichever Home Secretary happened to be in place (two former Policing Ministers and three Home Secretaries resigned during this period for various perceived or actual misconduct scandals) police officers across the UK assumed that our Chief Constables would do what they had always done, and obey this latest instruction.
At last, we thought, sense has prevailed on Marsham Street.
Imagine our shock and disbelief when many Chief Constables decided to either ignore the instruction or simply re-name the units, and carry on as before.
These awareness wristbands are your chance to show your outrage at this state of affairs. Right or wrong, Theresa May is the elected UK Government Home Secretary (Secretary of State for US readers) and what she says should be implemented. They are your chance to show that you support the scrapping of yet another bit of bureaucratic nonsense, imposed by people with no concept of real public service, to whom procedure is everything and outcome is nothing.
A pity speedkermit is on hol, I'll try to keep this for him. Nice to see such a tactic being used by coppers against Chief Constables, using the Home Secretary's own words !
PCC
ReplyDeleteI thought it was probably Scherfig but I might well be wrong, he has never been averse to a new name though.
Here's another great resource from Open Culture; free online textbooks on a variety of subjects.
ReplyDeleteMight be useful for those of us keen on evidence-based argument.
Jen
ReplyDeleteI think it's obvious!This new lurker is Bru disguised as a man.I could tell straight away:-)
Could be Paul, all this subterfuge is a bit beyond me, I'm a simple soul. ;)
ReplyDeleteJen
ReplyDelete"I don't want to go where there are no shops.
In fact I wanna write an article on the emotional effect shopping for a new dress has on me.
The lace clinging to my bosom - that slip of silk caressing my bare shoulder''
Actually looking at the above quote from Bru i think i may well be wrong as far as my theory is concerned.
Oh well!
Nite x
First time I've been called a socialist actually, and I don't call myself anything ! One of my most politically aware and activist friends once said "Dave you're a real Anarchist" tho :)( That was as opposed to the self-styled ones in the family )
ReplyDeleteAbout ten years ago I did the PoliticalCompass test, and was more left and more libertarian than the Greens. Did it again today,almost off the scale for leftness .
Chekhov "Us and Them' . Yes, and could make for some interesting collaborations . When my good friend mentioned above was fighting extradition we had everyone locally on board right across the political spectrum ,except the Front National. Priests, peasants, everybody. She had a great time in jail too !
In your british context it might be an idea to learn from the frogs, who are very strong on Collectives and local organisation. Everyone welcome if they agree on the objectives. We're lucky because the habit never went away tho.
The concept of "the greater good" is embraced by many across the political scale.
ReplyDeleteCameron and co. are currently using it to promote their programme of cuts.
The idea that a few should be made to suffer for the majority is as wrong as the few profitting from the impoverishment of the many.
From the prose style "finger print" I'd have a stab that it might be "Monkeyfish" posting under a new psuedonym; ie "frolix8"
ReplyDeleteAnyway, sorry for responding to prolix rather than "frolix8"....my mistake and I apologize.
Matt Seaton perhaps?
ReplyDeleteCoco the Clown?
Who cares!
chekhov
ReplyDeleteIs frolix prolix or pithy and to the point?
PCC, "Habib -I don't think it is who I think you are hinting it is."
ReplyDeleteI think you're right, far too much humour and compassion to be who you think I think it is.
Paul
ReplyDeletethe cyber world is full of shapeshifters.
Checkhov
ReplyDelete"You get to name the weapons and the site."
Bananas at sunset on the fields of athenry.
Is frolix prolix or pithy and to the point?
ReplyDelete24 August, 2010 01:48
Post a Comment
Hello leni:I've no idea!
Or Solsbury Hill, if it's closer... with strawberries!
ReplyDelete@heyhabib: bananas it is then!
ReplyDeleteI had a peeling you'd split for the bananas.
ReplyDeleteDon't start moving the goalposts. Where did strawberrys come into the equation?
ReplyDeleteWhat have you got against strawberries? Bloody fruitist!
ReplyDelete@heyhabib: I like the way you take the piss!
ReplyDeleteWe of gooseberry lineage are by far the superior fruit.
ReplyDelete?
ReplyDelete:-)
ReplyDeleteNever knowingly overvalued.
Off to bed , good night, sir!
Frog
ReplyDeleteSee you checked into waddya. Jessica has mooted a series on the cuts - see if that comes off and if so how it is presented.
Giyus could be a most useful ally !
ReplyDeletefrog
ReplyDelete!
And good night to the wonderful Leni and Frog, too.
ReplyDeletehey, that's a pretty good name for a double act!
We could suggest panels on experiences with -- ATOS, A4e,Jobcentres,etc. Precise targeting of each subject to minimise diversion by trolling.
ReplyDeleteJess says she can't commission investigative journalism, true, but the panels could fill that gap really well.
Frogs aren't vicous I hope ? I know my garden toads aren't.
ReplyDeleteviscous
ReplyDeletefrog
ReplyDeleteI have only ever once experienced (witnessed really) an act of aggression from a frog - and that was a case of ardent if short sighted desire.
I put my axalotls in the garden pond for the summer - one was grasped in a killer embrace by a male frog.
We could suggest panels - orchidsoroysters has experience - bad - of A4E
NN all xx
ReplyDeleteI didn't see her reply on a cuts panel, but same applies as i said above, need as tight a focus as poss.
ReplyDeleteaxalotls ?
I think A4e is a good new step. That 2 mins C4 extract I put up pretty powerful in itself for wider distribution. The bit in the middle with the trainer--
"I've to look after number one, or I'll end up in one of those rooms" says a lot.
Panel on Agency Workers experiences in different environments . I think they even have them answering 999 calls inspectorgadget said. I read the first few pages of his book coming soon, crazy stuff.
NN !
ReplyDeletewent looking for that vid found this
ReplyDeleteorchidsoroysters
14 Aug 2010, 9:31AM
The problem with the selling of the poor to commercial operations like A4E and Atos and the general thrust of this government in almost any direction is that The Guardian is now behind the curve - again.
I haven't seen much about Atos in the Guardian but their coverage of A4E suggests that they are probably in favour of them. They've done a couple of articles which were uncritical puff pieces, singing the praises of Emma Harrison and her friends.
A left leaning paper should have been giving them both barrels on a regular basis.
Their courses are just fraud, pure and simple. I noticed this week (not here) they are actually being investigated for cooking the books.
I'm sure that heads will roll. Maybe some junior manager who nobody likes anyway will get the push and create another opening for Blunkett or one of his buddies.
Perhaps the Guardian has or hopes to get advertising work from them, maybe they just go to the same dinner parties, along with the Fairy Jobmother.
Emma Harrison has made £35m personally from the A4E scam and lives in a mansion, parts of which she rents out to 28 tenants. I wonder if they're all on Housing Benefit?
A true Dole Farmer never rests