There is quite a few peer reviewed studies on female DV, i have linked them more times than i care to remember. But that isnt to say there is a pure equivalence - there isnt, the majority of serious violence, serious injury and death is inflicted from men to women.
But violence itself has been shown to be largely symmetrical in a number of studies, not all by men with axes to grind either. Dr Steinmetz for example, who was targeted with death threats and bomb scares because of these findings, is a woman.
Peter - this is getting tiresome but the kep point you refuse to accept is any actual losses. The reason, i suspect, is that you claim the market is wonderfully efficient. You cant bring yourself to acknowledge that the market misallocated many billions of pounds of resources, so you say losses were never realised, that trashed shares were still really worth much more, etc...
I didn't say no losses were realised, Jay - of course there were losses from debts that turned bad. I have merely tried to demonstrate that the accounting write-downs, largely non-cash items, are not the same as cash losses. And that it was these fair-value write-downs - reflecting the potential risk (losses) that attached to assets - that required banks to raise capital. End of.
But you're right. This is getting tedious. Let's move on.
"..But that isnt to say there is a pure equivalence - there isnt, the majority of serious violence, serious injury and death is inflicted from men to women...
My 'gut feeling' on the subject of DV is very much in accord with Jays contribution above.
As I read last nights 'exchanges' in full and more slowly again this morning, time and time again I found myself saying to myself......'yes but'......'yes but'....'yes but that does not amount to equivalence'...."FFS read, pause, think, before you leap.
A night of passionate and sometimes vitriolic exchange in which neither side could bring themselves to identify and mention the numbers. The numbers which might have illuminated and put the issue beyond a shadowy debate.
The matter might have been resolved without a feather ruffled if either side had said look my fine and excited friend here are the two numbers x and y. One of the numbers is larger/bigger than the other.............that.... by common consent means that there is no equivalence
It always saddens me when I sense that people are intimated by numbers. I suspect that the fear of looking foolish in the presence of numbers is at the root of a deal of political and economic ignorance.
The widespread public discomfort with numbers is certainly taken advantage of by thieving bankers and traders and politicians.
Arguing that contemporary banking is a public service which we couldn't do without is a breathtaking arrogance by those who play the numbers game to their own advantage at the expense of the weak and ignorant.
Lets hear it big for bankers who pay 0.5% to little old ladies who saved their money in ISA accounts and then charge 16-25%+ to the old ladies kids who borrow the money to buy a present for their old mums...............
Oh sure fucking bankers bonuses are justified.
What fucking madness we have on here,
Yesterday I said how much I admired A42's style and patient building of the argument and so I do but on the subject of violence I fear in the final analysis I may part company with my much respected comrade............
When it comes to bankers and thieving traders and shit politicians there is only one solution to the equation and it is the Romanov solution.
(Of course I realise that if numbers do emerge in a debate then the fury then turns to the veracity or integrity of the source. Which as Bertrand Russell would have said ...that my friend is no more than argument by credential.. and fuck that for a game of soldiers)
Much as I adore you A42 I think the the case for the Romanov solution builds with the passing of the days. I'd like to think that it could be avoided but I fear not.
The likes of Bracken are strong, a cat of nine would not persuade him to seriously reconsider his greed and whilst the stretching of the sinews of the neck might cause him to see sense sadly it tends to be a one way manipulation that can't be put back afterwards.
As Stalin might have wondered .....ah dear me just how are we to educate/persuade the likes of Bracken....??
Paul I want to accept your apology but please understand that while I don't mind people disagreeing with me, I just find some of the ways in which you have conducted this argument very difficult to deal with.
In this context words like 'lady' or 'love' or (worse) 'lovey' and 'minx' are words that when I hear them used against me or any other woman, I find I interpret as an attempt to demean me. I see it as sexist bullying. A put down if you like.
There are words that people use when when they want to racially bully people, I don't use them because I find their use offensive myself.
I'm not point scoring here, human beings use language to demean others in all sorts of contexts, 'chav' comes to mind- it does have the advantage of not being gendered. Often its a habit and we are not aware of the impact.
I am just trying to make you aware of this in a gender context:)
On violence I've made my position plain, but lets face it as Deano says, unless a weapon is involved a man is, on average, much more likely to severely damage a woman in a violent encounter than a woman is to damage a man. Most men are stronger than most women and even when you take into account the fact that many men far from being physically abusive to women actually fail to defend themselves from a female attack because they have been brought up to 'not hit women' more women are severely hurt by men than vice versa.
I just wish 'don't hit women would become 'don't hit people'.
Domestic violence has become a competition between radical frminism and the men's rights agenda. Each is keen to prove greater victimhood. This is divisive and unhelpful, it stops us from seeing the wood from the trees
Its time we all accept that we are at base HUMAN. Humans are all equally flawed there is good and bad in all of us.
If we are to create a less violent world then we need to control our anger because uncontrolled anger breeds violence and is thus self defeating. Thats not the same as saying 'don't be angry' its saying we need to control anger and use it in a determination to make a better world where violence, like letting people starve, throwing them into the despair of long term unemployment, allowing them to die of easily curable diseases are removed from the face of the planet along with war torture and domestic violence. Violence in normal everyday life is never ever acceptable whoever perpetrates it.
That’s how I feel about it and I look forward to a time when a violent act with a female victim can be discussed without people coming in to say ‘What about men’ as though that diminishes the pain and fear of the female victim.
We have a problem about female on male violence and the problem is, at base, a lot to do with our very gendered view of men as invulnerable and strong, women as vulnerable and weak.
That view of women is one that no feminist worthy of the name should ever accept. I find it ironic that rad fems seem to do this all the time. As a woman I find it insulting.
Viewing men as hard unfeeling brutes is just as insulting, men can be vulnerable they are also human and to be human is to be vulnerable. My own father was sufficiently confident in his masculinity to be able show his emotions. He never felt the need to prove he was a man. Our society does something to most men that often prevents this which is a tragedy.
We are not as far apart as you think Deano, the patient explaining has to be done in the first instance because I firmly believe that the majority can be persuaded, but there are some who cannot will not be persuded.
I suspect that in the final analysis their numbers will be small and possibly insignfiicant. I should prefer the revolution to be non violent but I accept that violence may be necesary.
However I do believe we should do all we can to eliminate violence from everyday lfe, that is what I was talking about. I was also attempting to point out that there is violence on a much larger scale out there. Indeed the policies of the condems can be seen as acts of violence against the poor the elderly the sick and the vulnerable. Just the sort of people all bullies target.
"One of the numbers is larger/bigger than the other.............that.... by common consent means that there is no equivalence"
It is also about how the issue of female abuse/violence is reported. I'm sure I do not need to tell you that I do not condone nor excuse women who commit violence/abuse against children or their partners.
However, what also has to be understood is that every aspect of the media, newspapers, film television repeatedly reinfocrces a skewed vision of women as violent, cruel, manipulative, dishonest liars - malevolent even.
An example.
Remember if you will, recent cases, BabyP, Shannon Matthews.... how their Mother's, no doubt complicit in violence and or abuse, were the ones whose images, character, were dragged through the mud. Demonised as 'the epitome of 'Evil' trupmepted from the mainstream media, on the BBC endlessly.
On Monday, I was on the Tube and picked up a copy of Metro - a man (a paramedic) had been cleared of the murder and abuse of his weeks old child. Having previously abused the baby by twisting it's arm until it broke, the baby eventually died of brain injuries and was found to have multiple fractures and injuries. He had also apprently been abusing the boy's twin sister.
Incredibly, this man was given 3 years for manslaughter. There has been no mention of the plight of the Mother and no mass hysteria about this brutal, sub-human creature in the mass media. Instead, he is viewed and treated as an object of pity.
nice post on the tomasky thread, montana! can't help but think that glenn beck will indeed find something to prove that god is angry, or some such bollocks...malfunctioning stop-light or summat...
The Standard elaborates on the story.... but the old chestnuts and catalogue of excuses are wheeled out in the case of this brutal, violent man.
The judge said:
"the paramedic had been a "loving, proud and caring father" to the twins but had found it stressful to cope with a demanding job and the responsibilities of being a parent"
So loving in fact that he killed one and seriously injured another.
But, in his case murder is 'excused' because he was 'stressed even though the judge stated he knew this level of violence could lead to serious injury. (surely then the action is pre-meditated and warrants a conviction for 'murder'?)
And then the final 'excuse' is given -- much like the excuse men have been using for years to justify killing women... I 'snapped' - momentary insanity....
"In a sudden and brief loss of temper, soon regretted, you lost patience and control, and hurt Charlie in a way that was unforgivably brutal and shocking"
Yes, he irreparably damaged his own child, left him to suffer for 24 hours before taking him to hospital and then begged for 'forgiveness'.
And the terrible thing is, he was probably doing the same thing to his Wife.
To be fair - I think I read that there are about 38 Peter Brackens in the UK.
But it would be odd that if say only 10% of the population worked in the financial sector that significantly more Peter Brackens did.
(Its not as though the Bracken name is equivalent to Rothschild)
If the numbers were right (or even approximate) then our PB would have something like a 1 in 4 chance of being the FSA chided PB.
That would make it justified to conclude that if we call PB a fucking liar and an inside trader every day for a week we would be justified nearly half the time.....
Plainly if our Peter were to answer the allegation repeatedly put to him and studiously ignored by him then we would not be so justified in our suspicion.
In the meantime that slippery elusiveness that PB is rightly chastised for by those who engage with him here on UT might be said to be........... a clue?....a natural character trait of a manipulative and liar inside trader?
Innocent till proved guilty?
No wait the burden of proof for that is beyond reasonable doubt.
Insider trading ought to be a criminal matter but its really more like a civil action usually ignored or treated with a smack on the wrist - In such cases the matter of proof is down to "on the balance of probability"
Of course male DV directed against women generally has more serious physical consequences, but it is important that people should realise it can work the other way.
I was once in a relatively short-lived relationship where, on one occasion, my girlfriend physically attacked me. To restrain her, I had to hold onto her arms.
Afterwards, she wore a short-sleeved top in front of friends, who could see the bruises where I'd gripped her forearms as she struggled to hit me. It was only when I ended the relationship (quite soon after) that I felt able to tell them what had really happened. Some of them were quite relieved, since they'd been worried I might be mistreating her.
Of course I agree with the considered view of my wiser comrades that the real evil in all cases is the abuse/intimidation of the weaker by the stronger.
It angers me and saddens me that so many of my gender don't understand the mixed blessing of that stuff called testosterone delightful as it sometimes is (but which if and when it surges in women can cause a rush of strength sufficient to lift a car from a trapped child).
How much more civilised the world would be if it was insisted that men should retire to the bathroom and have a wank before engaging in debate or making important decisions....
My problem according to my beloved sometime is that I have a gruff voice which can go from gentle and soothing to a very loud tempest in just a few excited words..... Whilst such a voice can be useful for stunning a recalcitrant child or dog it can, at volume, appear very aggressive .
No matter how many times I claim that my loud voice is indicative of excited enthusiasm my beloved don't agree. Mind you that could be because I am hitting/pounding the brick wall (sometimes with my head) whilst desperately shouting at it in my wild desire to be understood.
Not easy this human communication business is it?
Could well be that God is a woman 'cos a lot of younger men still don't know that the bloody testosterone stuff turns against them when they get older - its thought to involved with the tedious prostate/pissing problems that older males frequently develop.
Perhaps we would all do well to think of the wise words of the late George Melly who in his very old age when confronted by his falling libido said ( words to the effect)."......thank fucking God at last ...it's like being unchained from a life with a lunatic.."
The fact that Suzanne Steinmetz is female doesn't mean that she's more credible than the far more numerous male researchers who disagree about a gender-equivalence to DV and it doesn't mean that she doesn't have an axe to grind.
Another excellent article about the notion can be found here -- written by a man, no less.
In one notable rage between me and my sometime I was determined not to shout and in 'enthused' desperation to make my point I picked up a marker pen and used our living room walls as a blackboard....
I wrote my message in large letters all over the wall and said to her "...there surely to god even you can read and understand that..."
I admit there was a bit of gesticulating and finger wagging and pointing as I was writing but nothing to justify her response.....
....She phoned the doctor and claimed that she had indelible evidence written on the living room wall that I was a lunatic and she wanted me committed to the nuthouse.
I'm buggered if I know why I still adore her but I do. Have to say our relationship is still occasionally stormy but so much easier now that we don't live under one roof.
I do not make light of the serious matter.
The abuse of the weaker by the stronger is not on - and I can understand Hank's et al angst at the studied avoidance of that wider truth in the economic/class/political sphere by the issue focussed victimista
I was so very sorry (and ashamed for my gender) when I read that Leni had had to deal with a violent realtionship in the past. It was just the same sorrow that I felt for Montana when I read the same in one of her posts last year.
It's thus all the harder for me to understand Hank's repetitive personalised pot shots at Montana a practice which can only diminish him and cloud his reputation.
Perhaps he too was once a victim, but he is a very intelligent and informed man who in person is both charming and a well built 6' 3" ish chap.
As I said the art and practice of communication is sometimes a mystery
And Montana I do think you need to take some constructive criticisms. You went shouting and swearing at Deano of all people a few days ago, although you apologised afterwards at least.
When I had my 'car crash' back in May, all I said was that I believed people had individual responsibility and were in control of their own destinies and you went on ranting that I was saying 'the poor are poor because of their own fault', when I never said such a thing.
"What others think of us would be of little moment did it not, when known, so deeply tinge what we think of ourselves. Or make us go swivel-eye shouty smash-smash."
I am at a bit of a crossroads in my life at the moment, and very busy so I won't be on the internet much.
Re, DV. My mum had to flee, literally, with me and my then baby brother to a women's refuge. That was pretty scary.
As to women, mothers exactly, putting their kids down, psychologically and emotionally abusing them, particularly their sons- it is true that it has a bad effect. I have stories to tell of this, not sometihng I am going to share on the internet though.
This short paragraph was of particular interest to me and may explain why I am so upset when people get shouty even when its not at me.
Rather than seeing domestic violence as referring only to physical acts such as hitting or pushing, we need to recognise that verbal, psychological and emotional abuse is an important aspect of domestic violence.
OMG thats exactly what my ex did - it took me over 20 years to recover from it.
When there is a car wreck on here or someone on Cif is verbally abusive about other people, a small part of me still curls up in a ball and sticks her fingers in her ears.
Its very very damaging and yes a man did it to me...
...but women are very good at it too. Especially if they suffer from PMS.
BTW I am NOT citing PMS as an excuse, but it is a reason why some women, who are usually nice normal human beings do turn into a total abusive nightmare once a month. Its still not taken as seriously as it should be.
My daughter used to suffer from it, she had depressionas well so I've been through it really - so has she! Everything wonderful now though we are best pals. :-)
I see it was a somewhat fractious evening yesterday. Agree with Anne - anger is useful but only when used productively and I have to say Paul, that I think you blew it last night, descending into name calling and abuse, consequently undermining anything useful you were trying to say. Still onward and upward.
Which brings me on to that mega arsehole Donald Trump, who is trying to ruin a beautiful stretch of coastline in Aberdeenshire. He is now resorting to some pretty dirty tactics and if people would like to support the campaign please have a look at this
Have received a letter this morning giving me an appointment to see a specialist on Tuesday. They're moving very fast on this. Don't know whether to be worried or thankful.
Montana, i wasnt claiming her femaleness made her research superior, was questioning the idea that only males with axes to grind had ever published research showing an equivalence of *frequency* between female and male DV. It was this precise view that got Pizzey exiled by the sisters - the woman who set up the first shelter in the UK.
The Steinmetz and Gilles research was done twice - the second time they took onboard the criticisms they received (well, those ones that werent abuse, death threats or attempts to silence them and have their tenure removed). So they switched to self reporting - they interviewed men and women separately and asked them how often they initiated violence against their partner and vice versa - they got the same results.
They also agreed on the issue of the more serious violence being male dominated (but not exclusively). But the finding of high levels of female violence caused an extremely serious backlash from the unpleasant end of the fem spectrum - who have earned themselves quite a reputation for disgraceful smears, threats, intimidation and character assassination.
Look what happened to Nick Davies as a recent example. This is a highly organised, well funded, vocal and aggressive lobby - Bindel and co. The Neil Lyndon case is another good example of the public smearing you get for querying their doctrine. So we are not dealing with a free area of academic dispute - this is intensely political, charged, and guarded - and hence distorted.
I cant be bothered to wheel all my links out - i've bored everyone with them too many times already ;)
Good news PhilB - what's this coloc word I'm unfamiliar?
Thoughts and best wishes are with you Sheff - fortunately whatever, you are made of powerful and strong stuff and will give the impertinent colic/flux thing no fucking chance.
You should warn/tell it to settle itself or it will be spit from a high balcony.........by a charming lass who wears purple now she can.... xx.
Montana/ Anybody - has the sign in password for the UT photo site changed ?
I can't get the one sent to us all when it was set up to work??
Last night i said that in the most cases UK women are equally responsible for subjecting their partners and children to DV.What i didn,t stress strongly enough was that women are more likely to come off worse.For whilst i did say women are 3 times more likley to get killed i failed to achknowledge the outcome of non fatal cases.For instance if in the heat of an argument a woman punches a man in the face she is guilty of DV.However if he hits her back and breaks her nose he is also guilty of DV but the outcome is worse for her than him.But they were both still guilty of DV.And she shouldn,t have hit him first.I also stand by the points i made with regard to the role women play in both subjecting children to DV and encouraging a culture of violence both within families and the wider community.However i hope i didn,t imply that the role of women in these matters somehow detracted from the violence of men.I do also remember saying that i thought most men and women were decent so why i was accused of being a misogynist and a bigot is beyond me
Neither myself,LaRit nor Montana provided any links to back our arguments although we all quoted sources.So we were all at fault there.And whilst i take full responsibility for my temper i think both LaRit and Montana should reflect on the fact that both of them weren,t blameless either.If you remember LaRit you switched the 'conversation' from the one we were having about your intervention with the Hank/Monkeyfish spat to implying i am a misogynist because of my views on DV.So there was provocation on both sides.And i notice you,ve kept that up today by referring to me as a troll.
Anyway where i do agree with Montana is that i think it,s best we ignore each other as we,re both extremely adept at rubbing each other up the wrong way.
I hope you and i can still be cyber mates LaRit.Untill last night i didn,t think we had a problem with each other.However if you don,t want to communicate with me in future then fair enough.
@anne/deano/sheff
I take on board the points you all made.And Anne i hope will be able to accept my apology so there is no bad 'cyber' blood between us.And i hope it all goes well for you on tuesday shefff.
Having to fill in one of these online psychometric tests for trying to apply to work at Boots-- like the one I did at Mcdonalds.
This is Orwellian. Not only that, an issue of data protection. It now seems that in all jobs you are expected to apply online, going through the idiotic processes- each requiring a password and each giving your personal data. Sod it. If a company want me to waste precious time on an it, then I won't bother.
And to think that yesterday and the day before, people were telling me to go round handing out my CV-- that simply does not work anymore. I am extremly worried about the data protection issue, something you dno't get with paper CVs.
I need some advice assistance from my UT friends down South if you please??
I really must visit the Henry Moore exhibition at the Tate Britain (Milbank nr Vauxhall Bridge Road nearest tune Pimlico Victoria line) by Sunday 8th August latest (exhibition ends after that date.
Best/cheapest route for me is a bus from Sheffield but they don't let dogs on.
So.........
I need a cheapish place to park me car somewhere down London way that would give me access to a park (for Mungo to stretch his legs before I leave him for a couple of hours or so.) and then access to the tube network.
(Mungo will sleep ion the car whilst I'm gone)
Anybody know of a suitable location? A multi story car-park at a reasonable rate would be fine - are they cheaper on friday/saturday/sunday?
Whats the economics look like on the central car-parks and congestion charge etc?? viz a fringe location then the tube.
If it's on a non residents allowed street it would need trees/shade in case its a sunny day. I always leave all the windows open if I have to leave me dog in the car. I'm not over bothered about me car being nicked but I wouldn't want to take an unnecessary risk of Mungo being nicked (I know that sounds unlikely but some folk really do find the bastard charming)
Any thoughts/advice would be welcome.
I have to make the effort to see the xhibition 'cos there is reputed to be a photo in it of Henry Moore sketching me dad at the coalface of a Yorks pit in January 1942.
If there is an after life I will oneday get me arse kicked by me lovely mam if I don't make the effort to go see me dad......He wouldn't fussed but she would.
Anybody who will let me park me car on their street/driveway will be bought a beer or two.
I need to take Mungo 'cos I'm hoping to take a few days wild camping in Kent (Sutton Vallance way were I once worked on the farms when a lad) (Mungo and I travel light and we sleep in the back of my Citroen xantia estate car when we are on the road)
Stoaty (If you still read here) I might be persuaded to call by Borstal and buy you a jar you old bastard??
Likewise if I'm passing anybody else's place I would be pleased to try to stop and say hello to any of our Southern UT comrades.
I guess using the excellent Oxford Tube (www.oxfordtube.com) would leave Mungo alone in the car for too long? I know there are shady spots in Thornhill park and ride on the Oxford ring road. (I have friends in Oxford and we've used it to go to London from there)
deano My first instinct is; screw driving accross London, it will spoil your day. I would look at Brent Cross shopping centre - easy - M1 more or less straight there, HUGE car park - probably some areas with trees - and close to bus and tube. Circa 40 minutes (an hour max if unlucky) by public transport to Millbank. If it's a nice day, get the bus !
Thanks comrades - Brent Cross looks promising its got a multi story/free parking.
Fucking hell parking in central London is expensive in the week! £000's but a lot lot cheaper at the weekends talking £200+ per day down to £25 at the week end.
Found one near tower bridge that looks like £16 for 24 hrs on a Sunday - Mungo and I could possibly have an overnight in central London thrown in -
food for thought on two options so far
Keep the suggestions coming if you have any ideas.
That google map facility is great you can zoom in and have a look - I think I found a park open green/grass area with lake/pond near Brent Cross for Mungo to take a swim in.
He just loves swimming. The prospect of/or the relax after a swim now that would cheer him whilst I was away for a few hours.
Do I want to sleep in a car with a wet smelly dog?......the good side of 50 years of heavy smoking is that you don't have many smell buds left in working order and anyway I can always douse the bastard in aftershave.
Promising sugggestion BW well done my friend that's a help.
Ah just zoomed in - it's Brent reservoir. It would have to be a post visit treat.
If the bastard got in there it would be difficult to get him out till he was ready.
For Mungo there no finer pastime than backstroking/paddling along a nice stretch of water at a leisurely pace. It is one of the few things that can make him oblivious to my commands.
(memo to deano pack a long metal chain for the swimming )
If anyone is interested they can google 'Government Statistics on Domestic Violence'.I,ve tried to provide a link but it,s not working.Anyway if people are seriously interested in this issue they need to read the whole report because it gives an inconclusive picture as to what % of the victims of DV are male.It varies anything from 25% to 50%.And in effect challenges all of us who were involved in last nights spat.
If people are interested i,ll try and track down the links for the other sources i quoted.Plus proof of the claims that allegations have been made that some branches of WomensAid are not helping male victims of DV.And may lose their funding because of that.
If anybody has any stats on DV for Buddhist communities/countries I would be interested.
I've often wondered if an upbringing that encourages a respect for the lives of all things, even vicious wasps, could overcome/override the lunacy of the testro/alcho fueled aggression of many Euro males.
I read recently that the number of female deaths this year by jealousy crazed ex lovers in Italy was at frightening levels this year.
From what I heard briefly on the news it sounds that we might have another jealousy driven out of control killing of innocents on our hands.
Over the period, the proportions of male victims, based on estimated numbers of incidents, has varied between 19% and 34%, with a mean of about 26%. Since male victims tend to suffer fewer repeat incidents against them than female victims, the proportions of actual male victims are higher than those based on numbers of incidents shown on these figures..
The more detailed BCS supplemental surveys specifically aimed at interpersonal violence detect much higher proportions of male victims, in the range of 37% to 50% for a last-year period [see below].
Not sure what 'interpersonal violence' means - would that just be wives/female partners/sisters/mothers - or include brothers, fathers, male partners, other family members like uncles/aunts/grandparents etc because DV isn't just about spousal violence but can be intergenerational, sibling etc etc..
"...The estimates are based on people reporting actions against them perceived as crimes. Since not all people regard domestic abuse against them, even if serious, as a crime, particularly young men, and therefore may not report it (or wish to admit it) to crime surveys, these Home Office crime estimates are likely to significantly under-estimate the actual extent of domestic violence, particularly against young men...." (deanos bold)
Fact is though whilst women are more vulnerable to violence domestically, according to the ONS:
Men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women. Over 5 per cent of men and just under 3 per cent of women aged 16 and over in England and Wales were the victims of some sort of violence in the twelve months prior to interview in 2002/03. Men and women aged 16 to 24 are the most at risk age group. Around 15 per cent of men and 7 per cent women of this age reporting that some sort of violence had been used against them.
So young men, more than any other group, are much more at risk from violence generally - largely it seems, from each other.
"Interpersonal violence is defined to include violence between family members and intimate partners and violence between acquaintances and strangers that is not intended to further the aims of any formally defined group or cause. Selfdirected violence, war, state-sponsored violence and other collective violence are specifically excluded from these definitions".
The problem with DV is that so much is unreported.Which is why it makes it so difficult to interpret statistics.And which is why i said in my earlier post that all of us involved in last nights spat are in effect challenged by them.
@sheff-no question that a minority of men are responsible for the majoirty of crime in general.But is that sufficient to justify playing down or ignoring DV committed by women in their familial relationships?.I feel there is a strong cultural reluctance in this country to acknowledge just how abusive women can be.And like an iceberg womens more destructive qualities are often hidden from view.(And just for the record-again-i,m talking about a minority of women.)
A few years ago a guy called Neil Lyndon wrote a book called 'Not Guilty' .And in that book he described DV -if memory serves me correctly- as a 'Sacred Cow of Feminism that wouldn,t be slain'.And i beleieve he has a point.Because so much of rad fem dogma in particular rests on this notion that men are bastards and women are either victims or paragons of virtue.And by stealth this rad fem notion has played a key role in underpinning the way DV is dealt with in this country.Plus of course there is a reluctance of many decent men and women to accept that the female of the species can be every bit as deadly as the male.
Sheff - More at risk from suicide too if I recall readings correctly.
If I'd been using the stats I might have said something to the effect that
".............there is a significant and growing trend of reported domestic violence against males which is difficult/impossible to read/quantify because of a probable under reporting by males reluctant to admit to it suffering it..."
BTW do you know if the password/entry code for the UT photo site has changed from that given out by Montana when it was set up??
In so far as DV is exacerbated by external insecurities and daily hassle and fears, then sadly its likely to increase as the ConLibs get to work.
I think it was Duke who observed a while ago that it can accelerate in the different parts of Glasgow on a Saturday according to the football results. I guess that would be the same in all large cities/towns in the UK
The focus has been on DV by men against women because ordinary women fought hard and long to have it recognised as a problem at a time when the police wouldn't intervene in what they called 'domestics' and women had little protection. It would be true to say that at this time - back in the late 60s/70s DV was seen as a problem for women, and women on men spousal violence wasn't considered.
It was Erin Pizzey who opened the first women's refuge back in 1971 in Chiswick. She was subsequently attacked by a lunatic fringe from the women's movement for drawing attention to the idea of reciprocal violence.
This wiki page is pretty accurate and goes into the problems Pizzey had.
I assure you it is not only blokes who suffer from the maniacs - we all do. Thats not to say that a feminist perspective isn't a useful tool. But thats all it is - a tool/perspective and it has contributed to many major social improvements - for us all.
@Montana: "But I'd suggest to you that, if you don't have a point, you might want to resist throwing random anecdotes into contentious dicussions and it runs the risk of making things worse."
Well, I did have a point to make. It just wasn't the one you would have preferred I was making;).
Thanks for that.I am however fully aware of the work of Erin Pizzey and have taken some serious flak from rad fems for using it.For she stated that 60% of the first 100 women who entered her Chiswick refuge were just as violent as the men they had left.And as you may know she,S also highly critical of WomensAid as well for what she perceives to be their anti-male approach to DV.
Also a point i was perhaps not making too well earlier is that by stealth this lunatic fringe of the feminist movement as you described it,has had a disproportionate input into the way the whole issue of DV is addressed in this country.Seem to remember Doris Lessing had a lot to say about that as well.
Have a look at this The Mankind initiative which offers support for male victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence which Erin Pizzey set up.
They're desperately short of money and if anyone can afford to send a donation they'd be intensely grateful. I don't understand why they don't get more support - you'd think all the blokes (especially) who go on about how unlevel the playing field is these days would be clamouring to support them but apparently not.
'lunatic fringe of the feminist movement... has had a disproportionate input into the way the whole issue of DV is addressed'
Not only with DV either. Having said that I still think there's a place for feminism amongst all the competing perspectives and looking through that lens can be enlightening and open up a different view.
There are lunatic fringes everywhere - arguably we have a lunatic neocon fringe in gov at the moment about to trash all our most valued institutions and punish the the most vulnerable in our society to boot.
I had a lunatic fringe once I decided to cut it myself and got a bit carried away, I ended up looking like Rowan Atkinson in Blackadder I, not a good look for a teenage girl, I didn't get asked out for a while.
Cheers for that.I,ve heard of Mankind and like a lot of charities involved in DV they rely heavily on donations.Of course one of the problems at the moment is that male victims-irrespective of orientation or whether they have kids-have very few places they can go compared to female victims.Which is probably one reason why WomensAid is coming under attack by LA,S for not doing enough to help men.
I often talk about Kids Company which is a well known charity here in London which basically helps kids who the statutory agencies have given up on.The Founder of Kids Company is now an advisor to David Cameron although her interest is purely apolitical.I would be interested what your views are on THIS ARTICLE which whilst dealing with Black women in particular highlights a dimension to the problem of DV which i think is a problem in varying degrees across the whole spectrum of society.And before any rad fems jump on me i,m not in any way playing down or ignoring the role of men as perpetrators of DV.
Also according to Social Trends,the government annual bible for demographic trends etc the majority of victims of non sexual abuse in this country are boys.If you want i,ll try and dig out a link because the statistic i,m quoting is a couple of years old but i can,t see why it would have changed much.Also the NSPCC has been trying to raise awareness of emotional and psychological abuse of children.For a child,like an adult,can be destroyed without laying a finger on them.And the majority of the perpertrators of this type of abuse,along with other forms of non sexual DV are women.
Guilty as charged as far as the OCCASIONAL temper tantrum and the regular mixing up of apostrophes and comma,s go.Dispute the self pity charge.And whilst i like most people on UT i wasn,t aware that i was continually proclaiming my love for them.Anyway 2 out of 4 ain,t bad.
Right I'm out of my depth on this DV talk, but suffice to say I've agreed - in person - over a few drinks - with at least two regular feminist posters here - that, bottom line, abuse is abuse.
I'm off to shell some peas while watching Blade Runner. Might have a Speckled Hen or three too.
but the overall lesson of UT is that CiF is wise to have a moderation policy.
Do you think so UTWatcher? I guess cif probably does need a mod policy - pity the mods themselves are so inconsistent though and so frequently over step the mark, deleting intelligent polemical posts, whilst leaving up really moronic, offensive ones so often.
The UT isn't that kind of place though - its small, people have got to know each other. We have spats and sometimes people get pissed and go over the top - but I think we can and should accommodate that, since it seems to be part of the human condition for people to behave like dick heads occasionally.
We do seem to attract a disproportionate amount of interest from lurkers though. I've never really understood why.
However, if you want to stick around and join in, please feel free.
It had begun to snow again. He watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead.
Of course there are lurkers, the online counter tells me there are 23 posters from Britain alone. The number of regular posters from these shores must be only about 15 tops.
Although they could be 'old flames'. After all this site has over 50 followers but really there are never more than 20-25 regular posters.
Wow, check this out. I just found it. Written by a mate about thirty years ago; early thatcher era .
Multi-National Blockheads
These guys, in their executive suites, making executive decisions about what to do with the world… What a bunch of pricks… How did they get there… Who authorised their madness… Who gave them the wherewithal…. They are like greedy somnambulants run amok carrying out their own interpretations of the directives of the common understanding as distorted by their greedy somnambulance… But they're only an offshoot… They're only operating on part of the programme…. The rest of it is still developing… But they're so mindless and so greedily energetic that they don't notice….. And what are the weapons available to the rest of us, the rest of us contributors to the common understanding, in what must become a battle to get these guys to calm down… The rest of us can't even communicate with each other without resorting to mediums administrated by these madmen, mediums left in the control of a few in order to facilitate the ongoing consumption of the planet…. The thing is they think they're the cream or even the end product of the common understanding… But what they are is delegates…. They've been delegated to get on with administering the practical implications of some of the more recent and more shattering contributions to the common understanding in the best interests of us all….
They think they're the point, but they're beside the point…. While they're freaking out over the profitability of the practical implications, the rest of us are still trying to extend the common understanding…. The trouble is these guys are so serious in their commitment to distorted objectives that there's a good chance that the common understanding won't ever extend from here… And we have to decide either to do something about it or accept that this colossal experiment in consciousness was a failure….
The Common Understanding is the fund of knowledge into which we are born; from which we spring on our journeys through human consciousness..... The beauty of the Common Understanding is that it is assembled over many centuries by ultimately selfless people... In their journeys through human consciousness many people forget the indefinable nature of the task facing them.... They forget that they are here to learn and to contribute... In the course of this forgetting many of us become petty and selfish... But this only lasts a short time because people die and in this ultimately selfless act they leave behind what they have discovered in their journey... The sum total of all these discoveries that those of us still journeying can remember or record is the Common Understanding.... The sum total of these recorded or remembered discoveries becomes the best answer that we, through the generations, can provide to the question "Why are we here....?"
----------- Damn right he was a total hippy. One of the finest I 've met.
Can't believe that's two nights in a row I haven't finished til after 8pm. I am bloody knackered. Got a day at home tomorrow though, as lots of paperwork to do, and Dad coming over.
Deano - wish I could offer you and Mungo a bed for the night, but we are still in turmoil with decorating, carpetting, clearing out junk. Currently the lad is in the spare room in a small bed, his old bedroom is being gutted and renewed, and every room in the house is a bloody tip. The first 6yd skip has gone, but we are seriously thinking about getting another one...
Re female DV - I generally agree with Jay's analysis.
I don't think I will look at what happened in the thread after I went to bed last night.... :P
Paul - I think that one of the biggest barriers to serious campaigning over female on male violence is the mens groups who turn the whole issue into a competition. They seem to think that proving that female violence is more common JUSTIFIES male violence. They forget that two wrongs don't make a right.
The article Sheff linked to upthread had this to say There are five ways in which the agendas and activities of fathers' rights groups in relation to domestic violence are harmful for men themselves. 1. They focus on the wrong target (women or feminism, rather than unhealthy and destructive models of manhood). As far as violence done to men is concerned, for example, the problem primarily is violent models of manhood and an ethic of mutual combat and honour in masculine culture. To end the violence we will have to change these models, such that toughness, aggression and insensitivity stop ruling men's lives.
2. They taint as backlash the call for recognition of violence experienced by men. The more quickly that people such as the Lone Fathers' Association drop their obsession with proving that domestic violence is gender-equal, the easier it will be for others to hear of the fact of men's subjection to domestic violence The whole focus on proving that women hit men as much as the reverse is a monumental distraction from the very real need to get services and support for male victims.
3. They antagonise potential supporters. Attacking existing services for female survivors (or feminism in general), does male survivors of violence a disservice. It is an attack on the very people who brought the issue of interpersonal violence to public attention in the first place and who have been leaders in this field. It unnecessarily antagonises the women and men in existing anti-violence services who could be usefully involved in responding to male survivors and who could be key supporters of services directed at male victims.
4. They are based on a simplistic "You've got it, we want it too" logic which may not provide the most appropriate services for men. It is striking how often the things men's rights men call for are the mirror image of things established by three decades of women's movements. You've got a women's health centre or a refuge, we want a men's one, and so on. This "us too" approach is motivated more by a knee-jerk logic of equality than by an informed appraisal of the kinds of services men are going to use and like.
5. They undermine the protections available to both female and male victims of violence. Fathers' rights groups have criticised and attacked the operation of Domestic Violence Orders or Apprehended Violence Orders, claiming that false allegations of domestic violence and child abuse are routinely made and that alleged victims of such crimes are too readily believed. These efforts undermine the safety and protection available to both female and male victims of violence.
I would add that the radical feminist agenda which seems to have completely taken over the feminist movement is similarly guilty, especially in their doctrinaire men = violent women = victim approach. As I have said before this denies the plight of male victims and patronises/infantilises women. Quite an achievement.
Until we can wrest the initiatives on this topic away from both these groups there will be little hope of men and women addressing their behaviour both as victims and perpetrators in a way that even stands a chance of solving these problems.
Hello and welcome UTWatcher - glad you enjoy the show, or at least enough to offer a lurker/critic's view.
Your welcome to try mould the UT to your own image if you wish.....can be fun, sometimes frustrating, and occasionally tempestuous and bloody.
What the hell it's the Internet stupid. (to paraphrase rather than abuse a new visitor)
As you say there are a goodly number of folk of generous spirit here, no matter then that there will never be agreement on who belongs with the saints and who the sinners.
You should join, membership is free and if I understand it you can't get bonus points here by lurking forever. Golden rule is that your only as good, or bad, as your last post no matter how promising or dismal your start.
thauma enjoyed that, perhaps you should add it to the UT reads (if you ain't already)
Right pleasant evening here in Yorks so it's me and Mungo out for a walk - laters fine friends.
It was a windowless erection used for storage, and from the open door there floated into the obscurity a mist of yellow radiance, which at first Tess thought to be illuminated smoke. But on drawing nearer she perceived that it was a cloud of dust, lit by candles within the outhouse, whose beams upon the haze carried forward the outline of the doorway into the wide night of the garden.
When she came close and looked in she beheld indistinct forms racing up and down to the figure of the dance, the silence of their footfalls arising from their being overshoe in "scroff"--that is to say, the powdery residuum from the storage of peat and other products, the stirring of which by their turbulent feet created the nebulosity that involved the scene. Through this floating, fusty DEBRIS of peat and hay, mixed with the perspirations and warmth of the dancers, and forming together a sort of vegeto-human pollen, the muted fiddles feebly pushed their notes, in marked contrast to the spirit with which the measure was trodden out. They coughed as they danced, and laughed as they coughed. Of the rushing couples there could barely be discerned more than the high lights--the indistinctness shaping them to satyrs clasping nymphs--a multiplicity of Pans whirling a multiplicity of Syrinxes; Lotis attempting to elude Priapus, and always failing.
...
Tess soon perceived as she walked in the flock, sometimes with this one, sometimes with that, that the fresh night air was producing staggerings and serpentine courses among then men who had partaken too freely; some of the more careless women also were wandering in their gait[...]; and the young married woman who had already tumbled down. Yet however terrestrial and lumpy their appearance just now to the mean unglamoured eye, to themselves the case was different. They followed the road with a sensation that they were soaring along in a supporting medium, possessed of original and profound thoughts, themselves and surrounding nature forming an organism of which all the parts harmoniously and joyously interpenetrated each other. They were as sublime as the moon and stars above them, and the moon and stars were as ardent as they.
The point I am trying to make from the few excerpts (last was from Tess of the d'Urbervilles, sorry) and links is that we all seem to be searching for a sense of community and belonging. And not finding it very well.
"One of the rarest sights in the English night sky could be visible after sunset tonight, provided one of the most common – cloud cover – does not get in the way.
A series of solar eruptions have sent the northern lights further south than usual in the last five days, and clear skies after dark give an outside chance of catching the vivid neon glow as far south as Yorkshire and Lancashire".
Deano, thanks, and good idea. It's been called the best short story ever written, and in many ways I'd have to agree, although I'm not otherwise much of a Joyce fan.
The film version by John Huston (starring Anjelica, and his last film) is also very, very good.
My dear young miss don't be soft - you most certainly would not want Mungo in your house.
If he gets one on him 'cos he was left in the car/mobile kennel longer than he thinks right then he will spend the night snoring and farting a protest. He mistakenly thinks I can be made to feel guilty.
Be assured if he is particularly offended he can do both loud enough to keep the street awake.
Out of respect for humanity and the sanctity of harmonious friendship when we travel he has to sleep in the car which is really a mobile kennel adapted for beast and man. He would whine the street down if left to sleep alone. I think he's scared of the dark.
Great post. Except the rad fems are just a faction - the voice of reason can still be heard!
jen
Happened the other year & it was too cloudy then! Fingers crossed, eh? tbh, I'll probably fall asleep & miss it. But the aurora is something I would love to see, just once in my life.
yes Mschin but its the combination of them and the mens rights crowd that feed on each other. The rad fems are the dominant faction. I believe its because the powers that be can use them to deflect support away from the reasonable majority - the same way that they use stalinism to smear socialism really!
But yes we have to make sure that the voice of reason is heard and we must not be discouraged.
Sorry, no idea, don't think it's that easy to predict the time.
anne
I don't think either of those groups have much real influence, tbh. It's media hype that creates that impression. And we won't be discouraged, just more determined.
He also proposed merging police force use of computers, frogmen, helicopters and other assets, and revealed he was against implementing the EU agency workers directive.
"In terms of the rights of agency workers, I think we have to look at this very carefully. Sometimes you find if you pile on extra rights and obligations, you just end up with fewer people in jobs," he said. "I think we have got to ask ourselves a pretty simple question: if we want more jobs, are we making it easier or more difficult to employ someone?"
"In terms of the rights of agency workers, I think we have to look at this very carefully. Sometimes you find if you pile on extra rights and obligations, you just end up with fewer people in jobs," he said. "I think we have got to ask ourselves a pretty simple question: if we want more jobs, are we making it easier or more difficult to employ someone?"
So do you like Thomas Hardy novels as well Thauma. I am reading Jude the Obscure right now. Good book.
I really like the themes in Hardy, that of peoples helplessness caught up in the wider circles of things, he called a category of his novels, 'novels of character and environment' which sound very similar to the marxist 'environment determines consciousness'.
Furthermore Hardy depicted the hypocrisy of morality, most character are 'immoral' only through accident and chance, circumstances beyond their control, yet fellow humans will judge and scorn them based simply on these uncontrollable factors in a person's life.
Very prescient for today, for the political class and the braying mobs.
Nap -", that of peoples helplessness caught up in the wider circles of things" -- Good luck mate, learning how not to be ground down .
Jen & leni - really a very backward country already with gangmasters et al. Polly's book showed a few years ago how shitty agency wk was and getting worse. Some good bad news is that more and more journalists all around are displaying unease about the whole financial system, like its teetering . Peston at BBC, link yesterday, Gillian Tett today FT . Not very recent, holidays etc, but Conway an ambrose evans-pritchard at DT . Nils Pratley business section today -- " of course Lloyds is making fucking profits, they're getting virtually free money to play with " .
Down the pub for bread and kisses . An unemployed young lady helped me when i was a bit weaker, splitting wood & picking apples for cider, and I finally 'paid' her by sawing a trailer of wood today. Local solidarity !
I'm perfectly calm and you're missing my point, Chekhov. You cite one argument in which your now wife threw crockery in what I assume was an attempt to provide anecdotal evidence that DV is as much female-on-male as common as male-on-female.
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"! 05 August, 2010 03:13
chekhov said...
@Montana: "But I'd suggest to you that, if you don't have a point, you might want to resist throwing random anecdotes into contentious dicussions and it runs the risk of making things worse."
Well, I did have a point to make. It just wasn't the one you would have preferred I was making;). 05 August, 2010 18:00
So, which comment is the lie and which one is you being either a coward or a paper tiger?
The department of health said it would explore options for private sector investment in the state-owned NHS Professionals, which has 50,000 workers on its books and places staff for two million shifts a year at 77 health trusts.
Unions were furious over the sell-off. Karen Jennings, UNISON Head of Health, said that "the whole reason that NHS Professionals was set up was because private agencies were ripping off hospitals by charging them outrageous fees for recruiting or finding staff for shifts.
"It makes no sense at all to bring back private companies who will want their slice of the action in return ... This is purely about promoting privatisation ...regardless of the consequences on patient care. A sell-off may bring a short-term cash injection, but cost NHS Trusts vast sums in the longer term."
However the department said the plan "is in line with the government's policy to maximize the value of assets and commercial opportunities," the department said in an e-mailed statement today. The department will hold meetings with the private sector on "options and opportunities," the statement said.
-----
Think I will stop reading anything these bastards are suggesting - it's bad for blood pressure.
Think I will stop reading anything these bastards are suggesting - it's bad for blood pressure.
Fair point. Sometimes you need a breathing space, respite from the relentless barrage of crap that's flying from the ConDem govt. And from those rabid right wingers currently inhabiting CiF, BW.
Last night you were not trying to make a point and yet today you were trying to make a point (even if it was one Montana didn't want you to make or something).
Thanks for your comment at 20:24. What you quoted was actually from the article that I linked to at 11:21.
I've never claimed that men are never victims of DV and I've never denied that there are rad-fems who do. Quite the contrary. But, as the Flood article points out, notions of gender-equivalent DV all hinge on the Conflict Tactics Scale developped by Straus, Gelles, Steinmetz et al. and the CTS doesn't weight acts of violence for severity.
Ergo, a slap on the bicep that results in nothing more than a stinging sensation is not differentiated from a punch in the face that breaks teeth, causes severe bruising and results in a trip to the ER.
I don't mean to claim that the plural of anecdote is data, but here is an example from my days as a DV/SA advocate:
A couple were fighting loud enough that the people in the house next door could hear it. The man was punching and throwing his wife around for a good 20 minutes before the neighbours decided to call the police. The police arrived about 10 minutes after they received the call.
As the police arrived, the woman (who was about half the size of her husband and had been subjected to his pummeling for a good 30 minutes by now) came out the front door of the house, trying to get away from her husband. He follwed her, grabbed her and punched her another 2 or 3 times. The police stayed in their squad car, observing all of this.
While the husband was still holding onto his wife and punching her (the police in their squad car, looking on), she was able to get ahold of a baseball bat that their children had left on the porch. She swung it and hit him on the back with it, clearly trying to defend herself.
At this point, the police got out of their squad car, arrested both of them and charged both of them with felony domestic assault. Both were seen for injuries at the local hospital. The incident was recorded as mutual, they were charged with the same level of assault.
The account was verified by, not only the neighbours who had called the police, but also by other neighbours across the street who looked out their window when they noticed the police car stop outside their house (flashers on, no siren).
Might be an idea to keep out of what is a conversation between chekhov and montana.For whilst you have a right to an opinion the comment you made 22.27pm was provocative and likely to inflame the situation.And being a hothead like me i don,t think you,d appreciate someone making a comment like that if you were in Chekhov,s shoes right now.
"Professor Mike Kosch from Lancaster University said it was "possible but unlikely" that the Northern Lights would be visible from England on Thursday night"
...disappointing news 'cos Lancaster and York Uni's have a special interest in the Aurora so tend to be well informed.
Still potentialy good news in the longer term since it might be indicative of a vigorous season in prospect.That would definitely see me Scotland bound in the autumn
Bugger but still I have clear sky to the North tonight for a few hours so I'll have to cross me fingers and hope.
My walk was a delight I had quite forgotten how much I enjoy walking the bye-ways in the dark Tonight was great the Evening star was stunning and the emergence of the stars from the darkening sky to the South and East is always a pleasure. Lot of bats about tonight too.
I've missed the late night walks. When my dear old Miss Diesel slowed right down and became sometimes confused we stopped doing them. It was in case she wondered off in the dark and I might not have found her (Her eyesight and hearing were past their best)
She had a flashing collar and reflective jacket but she could dislodge them if she took off after a rabbit scent through the hedgerows. So sadly we stopped our regular late night walks about a year ago.
In the dark tonight I could still easily imagine her walking behind with Mungo so tonight was both nice and sad.
Last night you were not trying to make a point and yet today you were trying to make a point (even if it was one Montana didn't want you to make or something).
Who told you that? I certainly never said I wasn't trying to make a point.
My point was that when the coppers turn up at a "domestic" they automtically assume that the male is the guilty party.
It had nothing do with equating the level of DV by gender which what Montana implied by her response.
You are right the words all there and I'm glad they are. Go back and have look.
You will have to explain what you mean because I don't understand.
You disingenuously implied something that was not stated in my comment. It's as simple as that and furthermore you make habit of it.
I didn't disingenuously imply anything. You threw an anecdote into the middle of a heated discussion about DV about your partner throwing crockery at you once. I assumed (which is a completely different thing from "disingenuously imply[ing]") that you intended the anecdote to be an example of female-on-male DV, since that was the subject being discussed.
When I told you that that had been my assumption, you claimed that you weren't trying to make a point. Now you are claiming that you did have a point. Clearly, both cannot be true.
Who told you that? I certainly never said I wasn't trying to make a point.
Then, what the fuck does this mean in Chekhovland:
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"!
When I told you that that had been my assumption, you claimed that you weren't trying to make a point. Now you are claiming that you did have a point. Clearly, both cannot be true.
I didn't claim that I was trying to make a point. You claimed that I was trying to make point.
Stop putting words into my mouth.
That was last night.
Today I did try and make the point that lobbing anecdotal evidence into a discussion ain't necessarily a bad thing.
Two differents arguments, so stop trying to conflate the two and twist my words by "moving the goalposts".
It's the Poker Flat Centre. They are the world's leading research institute on the lights
In the Autumn when the nights get a bit darker you can get accurate daily forecasts about the chances of seeing the lights anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere.
I'm no expert but my understanding is .....The intensity of the light is cyclical. The last few years have been very quite but there is an expectation that any time soon (from now to the next 2/3 years we could be getting a peak fifty year(ish) bonanza season.
Bonanza for sightings but potentially troublesome for worldwide telecommunication systems.
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"!
????????????? Errr......that was the point.
Geddit? That anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything!
I usually give people the benefit of the doubt and try to understand what they are saying rather than pick holes in their syntax and grammar and deliberately try to mis-interpret what they are saying.
So feel free to play fast and loose with my comments if you must.
life's too short and that's my final word on the matter. let's move on.
can't remember which year (late 80s sometime) I actually saw the Lights in Sussex . They were a wonderful green colour and seemed to dance, they advanced and retreated across the sky changing their form and pattern.
they were like huge, silent orchestra under the command of a skilled conductor. Something I will always remember.
Futher to the above little "tiff" and I hope it remains as such, how important is it that we should be aware of how we use language on this medium and pay attention to the nuances of grammar and punctuation and syntax and of course spelling ("typos" not included!) lest our posts can be deconstructed for a failure to comply with all of the above?
BTW: I'm no expert but I strive to do the best I can.
I saw your apologia above and to be frank, my opinion hasn't changed since reading your subsequent posts today.
You display the classic traits of an abusive man and personally and I still think your kind of hatred toward women is best served by a site like Fathers4justice - the site for women-hater's who don't think they hate women.
I have seen you now, on several occasions, repeatedly resort to abusive terminology designed to inflame and hurt. You tried to deflect it onto Hank, onto MonkeyFish, onto Scherfig, trouble is, it took me a little while to see it for what it was and that's why I intervened.
BTW - I don't fall for the classic abuser tactic - good-cop-bad-cop routine and Paul, sorry to tell you, but you are practically a textbook case and you don't even realise it.
You have an enormous amount of anger directed against women and men who you see as traitors to your sex and the warped social construct we all live under - but you didn't even have the excuse of being drunk, however, when things got too close for comfort, you turned around and accused Annetan of being drunk!!!
Classic - tell the woman who's challenging you indirectly that she's the one who is drunk and that you're the one in control.
I recognise Misogyny when I see it and if you think I'm some kind of 'rad fem' (the ref to Andrea Dworkin was what clinched it for me - an Academic who spent years cataloging pornography and violence against women, who was married to a man for many years and who late in life was raped, presumably by some nutjob to 'teach her a lesson') Then sobeit. I couldn't actually give a rats arse what label you attribute to me - you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
And this just proves my point further...
"the NSPCC has been trying to raise awareness of emotional and psychological abuse of children....And the majority of the prpertrators of this type of abuse,along with other forms of non sexual DV are women"
Classic - let's not provide links or proof, but in a discussion examining the worldwide epidemic of male-on-female-child violence/abuse/torture/murder hey, let's just forget that that's the actual status quo and infer that the 'majority of women abuse children' - how quaint!
I used to think Camila Batmanghelidjh was an OK person until I realised that she was on every damn programme about the fate of deprived children and now, well, an 'advisor' to Condom-head man? Well fuck her, she sold herself to the Devil.
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"! 05 August, 2010 03:13
@Montana: I just told a story which is true. Believe it or not there was no underlying politcal edge. Read into it what you like! 05 August, 2010 03:50
@Montana: since when did throwing in random anecdotes deter discussion? Our whole life revolves around the stories we tell each other. Why should it be any different on the UT website? 05 August, 2010 04:12
Well, I did have a point to make. It just wasn't the one you would have preferred I was making;). 05 August, 2010 18:00
Who told you that? I certainly never said I wasn't trying to make a point.
My point was that when the coppers turn up at a "domestic" they automtically assume that the male is the guilty party.
It had nothing do with equating the level of DV by gender which what Montana implied by her response.
You are right the words all there and I'm glad they are. Go back and have look.
"Busted" ..my arse! 05 August, 2010 23:17
Errr......that was the point.
Geddit? That anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything!
I usually give people the benefit of the doubt and try to understand what they are saying rather than pick holes in their syntax and grammar and deliberately try to mis-interpret what they are saying.
So feel free to play fast and loose with my comments if you must.
life's too short and that's my final word on the matter. let's move on. 05 August, 2010 23:50
You weren't making a point. You were making a point. You weren't making the point I wanted. You were making the point that coppers assume the man is the guilty party. You were making the point that anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.
But I'm the one shifting goalposts, deliberately misinterpreting someone and playing fast and loose with other people's comments.
"I have seen you now, on several occasions, repeatedly resort to abusive terminology designed to inflame and hurt. You tried to deflect it onto Hank, onto MonkeyFish, onto Scherfig, trouble is, it took me a little while to see it for what it was and that's why I intervened"
And when they weren't around, you went after most women on this board last night. Me, Anne, Montana... - in fact anyone who took your fancy.
Lifetime ambition of mine to see them. I'm determined to do so before I die they are up there as number one thing yet to do.
I think it was 2007 when after an exceptional solar flair they were seen only 4 miles from where I write but despite me being out looking I missed them!!. But it is very rare to see them South of the Northern Scotland in the UK.
Previous time they were seen in East Yorks was the 1930's!
Still it's a beutiful starlit night tonight so time gazing at the heavens is not wasted.
I did too La Rit. I can't bear yet to look to closely what she's up to as an "advisor"... she's always talked perfect sense when I've seen/read her in the past....
solar flares - astonishing things. The more we see of the universe and the closer I look at a tiny flower the less I understand the cruelty of the world. We could spend our whole lives in awe and wonderment - no time for hate.xx
It had nothing do with equating the level of DV by gender which what Montana implied by her response.
And again: do you understand the difference between imply and assume?
I didn't imply anything -- I stated flat-out that I had assumed your anecdote was meant to illustrate an example of female-on-male DV. You said that it wasn't and last night I took you at your word and responded thus:
If you say so. But I'd suggest to you that, if you don't have a point, you might want to resist throwing random anecdotes into contentious discussions. Because it doesn't really do anything to illuminate the discussion and it runs the risk making things worse.
I'm not saying that in anger or bossiness or anything else -- it's just a polite suggestion. You are, of course, free to ignore it. I've been known to ignore my own advice far too often. 05 August, 2010 03:59<
Last night, you left two comments in reply to me and in neither did you attempt to contradict my rather clear belief that you had just told me that you didn't have any point.
You said:
@Montana: since when did throwing in random anecdotes deter discussion? Our whole life revolves around the stories we tell each other. Why should it be any different on the UT website? 05 August, 2010 04:12
and:
Tell me where I said that there was a "template" for a relationship?
Dunno, I never said that! 05 August, 2010 04:35
My comment above really was intended politely. I tried to make that clear and made a self-effacing joke to try to dispel any notion that it was meant any other way.
Last time they were herein Yorks and I missed them I shot off to John Groat's the next day. Spent four late autumn nights there .
On two nights they were definitely above me but totally obscured by clouds and the next two night the skies were crystal clear but they didn't fucking show!
You can take flights from the UK when the predictions are high. But as a last resort I'll go to Northern Canada or take the winter Norway Hurtigruten mail boats up the Norwegian Coast to the arctic circle
Now Miss Diesel is no longer with me I have thought of getting some snow tyres and taking Mungo on a wild winter camping trip to Norway.
It's now possible to drive all the way through the Eurotunnel up across Denmark and across the Baltic through a tunnel to Sweden...
Thanks BW. I was brought up on 'houses of the holy', my oldest brother bought it. Love listening to the live digi enhnc'd version now - done by Page. Nearly all really good tunes on that LP.
Sounds like a wonderful trip. Snow driving is fun. The highest road in S Wales ia about 5 miles from here - they close it in the snow but we drive it- they put a 'snow gate ' across. Just a heap of snow, navigable with the right tyres.
The road twists around the mountain to a huge drop off at the topNo houses, no street lights. On a cold clear night you can see Heaven beyond the bright stars.
@Montana: I'm not attempting to score points off you. On the contrary I'm delighted that you welcomed me on board the UT website and also introduced me to many fascinating people. In spite of your animosity I think we share much more to unite us than divide us!
Deano - you're absolutely right, it's a long journey but can be broken into stages, and you see a lot of beautiful vista's i've been told, as well as a lot of frozen landscape. Never had the opportunity to do that route yet. Driving can be become a bit mundane on the ice roads in Sweden, but the guys I know do it in cruise.
That's kind LaRit - ain't finalised a plan yet but at the minute BW's suggestion of Brent Cross is looking good.
Leni - any more news about a possible spinal op for you? I seem to recall I read some throw away line from you on the subject. I'd like to think perhaps I misread.
I really hope that you are not in any kind of permanent pain from which it is hard to find relief
Fact1-you chose to leave get involved in a spat between me,Hank,monkeyfish and Habib.You left a post which included a derogatory comment about me and i responded to that
fact 2-you then responded to me and proceeded to twist and turn and distort the facts at every opportunity.And in the middle of that you then changed the subject and started attacking me about my views on DV accusing me of being a misogynist which i found offensive.
fact 3-we then had a full on spat with both sides making abusive comments and both sides making claims without providing links.
The fact of the matter is LaRit i see you for what you really are.Which is an incredibly self righteous women who will do anything to exonnerate herself from any responsibility for her role in a spat in which we were both equally to blame.
I don,t despise women.I do however despise those rad fems of both sexes who IMO are like a cancer on the feminist movement.And who are causing untold havoc in policy making in certain areas including in the area of DV.
I,m not even going to bother to respond to your pathetic and offensive comments about Camila B at Kids Company and the NSPCC research .And your comment about me not providing links last night is comical given that you didn,t either.
The nonsense you spouted off about me deflecting shit onto Hank,Monkeyfish and scherfig is not only a joke but confirms the fact you have a complete blind spot as far as those guys are concerned.But i,m sure they will all be touched by your concern for them.
Again i find your comment about me picking on the UT women really offensive.I only have problems with 2 UT women as far as i,m aware and you are one of them.Also you strike me as a someone who is quite happy to dish it out but quick to play the victim when she gets a taste of your own medicine.I really can,t believe you are so stupid that you are directing all this anger of yours at me even though the evidence on the threads shows your abusive language and name-calling towards me last night wasn,t all that different from that which i directed to you.
I admit i have a lot of anger in me.But as i said before it,s not the anger you think it is.I do however think you have a lot of anger towards men in you and i think you,re trying to deflect something onto me that actually has nothing to do with me.After all we don,t know each other and we,re never going to meet.Or maybe you,re the type of woman who thinks it,s a womans perogative to shoot her mouth off and that any man you responds in kind must be a right woman hating bastard.I dunno!
Anyway i,m not wasting anymore time on this and i,m quite happy for us to ignore each other from now on.But if you chose to continue to shoot your mouth off please don,t complain if i tell you to FUCK OFF.
tascia/Leni - talking of Sweden reminds that one of the Swedish Uni's has an observatory on the top of mountain (above the cloud level) which has been converted into a kind of exclusive hotel with a near guarantee of seeing the lights if they are showing at all.
I understand it's expensive but popular with rich Japanese couples. In Japan a child conceived under the cloak of the Aurora is considered to be likely to be exceptional almost god like even...
Believe it or not, I wasn't angry with you at all last night. I realise that some of my comments probably read that way, in light of how heated my 'discussion' with Paul was, but since there has never been any animosity between you and me before, I guess I assumed that you wouldn't read any hostility into what I said to you last night. And I thought we'd left things on a civil note last night -- so this has felt rather like an unprovoked assault today -- one that was especially hurtful precisely because I've always liked you and couldn't understand why you would want to have a go at me.
Whatever offence I may have caused you, if you felt that I was somehow deliberately trying to distort anything that you said, I apologise unreservedly and promise you that that was not the case.
Spinal op - I.m getting quite used to them. I've had 3 so far. Maybe another one. Pain is a bugger I agree.
There seem to be several of us in the wars here. We'll just have to hope the NHS survives - we'll have to fight to make sure it does - not just for ourselves of course.
you were going to post a pic og Mungo the wonder dog.
I'll get round to posting one of Dogge and some from the Bwlch in the snow.
@Montana: "jesus wept" is probably a good analysis of a comment from some one who doesn't know fuck all...ie Me! Ok let's turn the tables; what do you know that you would like to share with me?
Leni - yes I was and I have a favourite of Miss Diesel that I hoped to post too.
I've casually asked Montana if we had had a change in the password log on keys for UT photos 'cos I cant get it to work. She may have overlooked the enquiry but I guess when she sees it and gets time she'll let me know.
For another, I can be a short-tempered bitch at the best of times, so when things are going the way they have been lately, I probably ought to just keep shtum.
That's about it, really, Chekhov.
Oh -- and one's shoes should always be darker than one's hosiery.
Sorry, Deano -- I didn't mean to ignore that. No, the password hasn't changed. I just logged into it with no problem. I'll e-mail you the details -- maybe you typed it in wrong???
And thanks very much Montana for your apology. It was very gratious and well put and did much credit to you as an honourable person who deserves to be listened to. We might have our differences but you were prepared to "stick your oar in" and for that you deserve respect!
Camila B of Kids Company may be an advisor to Cameron but her role is apolitical.Too early to tell whether she has been absorbed into the system or whether she can use her influence for the benefit of those kids she,s helping who have fallen through the system.Seems a bit premature to me for people to describe her as selling out to the devil.Especially as there isn,t a shred of evidence to back up that claim.Also she,s thus far made it clear that her media exposure is not only about raising awareness but also about touting for the funding she needs to keep Kids Company going.
I may be proved wrong in the future but i think anyone with a modicum of fairness should hold fire until we see what impact if any she has on the government.
Sorry, but if ever I needed more proof, your post above was it.
I don't 'have anger towards men' I have anger towards a warped socio-economic system. It is a system in which women, worldwide, being predominantly in the lowest socio-economic groups and often raising children alone in poverty are victims first of being born female and second, of having the ability to produce children and needing support. The big clue here is that we live in a patriarchal system and that women and children of ALL Socio-ecomonic groups are abused and killed.
I'm afraid, being a woman, I am going to defend them first and foremost. I have 'anger' towards a system which allows men, of all social strata to abuse and murder women on an epidemic scale. So when you try to claim that your NSPCC 'research' backs you up about women being 'the majority child abusers', the evidence doesn't stack up.
I'm sorry, but time and again, it's men.
I've no more time to continue. But I will shape my argument further later on today.
There is quite a few peer reviewed studies on female DV, i have linked them more times than i care to remember. But that isnt to say there is a pure equivalence - there isnt, the majority of serious violence, serious injury and death is inflicted from men to women.
ReplyDeleteBut violence itself has been shown to be largely symmetrical in a number of studies, not all by men with axes to grind either. Dr Steinmetz for example, who was targeted with death threats and bomb scares because of these findings, is a woman.
Peter - this is getting tiresome but the kep point you refuse to accept is any actual losses. The reason, i suspect, is that you claim the market is wonderfully efficient. You cant bring yourself to acknowledge that the market misallocated many billions of pounds of resources, so you say losses were never realised, that trashed shares were still really worth much more, etc...
I didn't say no losses were realised, Jay - of course there were losses from debts that turned bad. I have merely tried to demonstrate that the accounting write-downs, largely non-cash items, are not the same as cash losses. And that it was these fair-value write-downs - reflecting the potential risk (losses) that attached to assets - that required banks to raise capital. End of.
ReplyDeleteBut you're right. This is getting tedious. Let's move on.
Montana's quote could be the start of a very interesting discussion, or maybe one of you has crafted a post that covers most of the angles .
ReplyDeleteI do know that I will think better of myself if I shave, put on my working togs, and get out there !
JayR
ReplyDeleteMeant to say hello yesterday, but was having to deal with the troll.
Thanks for the above post - sort of proves the point. Hope you're well.
Frog2
ReplyDeleteMorning to you too - thanks for the timely intervention last night ;)
I'd like to second your suggestion about the above quote from Valery - it's a poewful one ;)
"..But that isnt to say there is a pure equivalence - there isnt, the majority of serious violence, serious injury and death is inflicted from men to women...
ReplyDeleteMy 'gut feeling' on the subject of DV is very much in accord with Jays contribution above.
As I read last nights 'exchanges' in full and more slowly again this morning, time and time again I found myself saying to myself......'yes but'......'yes but'....'yes but that does not amount to equivalence'...."FFS read, pause, think, before you leap.
A night of passionate and sometimes vitriolic exchange in which neither side could bring themselves to identify and mention the numbers. The numbers which might have illuminated and put the issue beyond a shadowy debate.
The matter might have been resolved without a feather ruffled if either side had said look my fine and excited friend here are the two numbers x and y. One of the numbers is larger/bigger than the other.............that.... by common consent means that there is no equivalence
It always saddens me when I sense that people are intimated by numbers. I suspect that the fear of looking foolish in the presence of numbers is at the root of a deal of political and economic ignorance.
The widespread public discomfort with numbers is certainly taken advantage of by thieving bankers and traders and politicians.
Arguing that contemporary banking is a public service which we couldn't do without is a breathtaking arrogance by those who play the numbers game to their own advantage at the expense of the weak and ignorant.
Lets hear it big for bankers who pay 0.5% to little old ladies who saved their money in ISA accounts and then charge 16-25%+ to the old ladies kids who borrow the money to buy a present for their old mums...............
Oh sure fucking bankers bonuses are justified.
What fucking madness we have on here,
Yesterday I said how much I admired A42's style and patient building of the argument and so I do but on the subject of violence I fear in the final analysis I may part company with my much respected comrade............
When it comes to bankers and thieving traders and shit politicians there is only one solution to the equation and it is the Romanov solution.
(Of course I realise that if numbers do emerge in a debate then the fury then turns to the veracity or integrity of the source. Which as Bertrand Russell would have said ...that my friend is no more than argument by credential.. and fuck that for a game of soldiers)
Much as I adore you A42 I think the the case for the Romanov solution builds with the passing of the days. I'd like to think that it could be avoided but I fear not.
The likes of Bracken are strong, a cat of nine would not persuade him to seriously reconsider his greed and whilst the stretching of the sinews of the neck might cause him to see sense sadly it tends to be a one way manipulation that can't be put back afterwards.
As Stalin might have wondered .....ah dear me just how are we to educate/persuade the likes of Bracken....??
On the subject of equivalence....
ReplyDeleteThe FSA Judgement on the insider dealing activity of one Peter Bracken
A philosophical question or two for UT's - is it fair or reasonable in the deafening silence to assume that our PB is this PB??
Is an opinion on the role of banking in civilised society enhanced if it comes from an inside trader.??
Would you like a member of your family to marry an inside trader...??
Would you trust an inside trader with the secrets of your financial affairs..??
Will an inside trader as a neighbour increase the value of your house..??
Is idle speculation an honourable way to a better future or is it like banking a parasitic activity which weakens the vitality of the host...??
Paul I want to accept your apology but please understand that while I don't mind people disagreeing with me, I just find some of the ways in which you have conducted this argument very difficult to deal with.
ReplyDeleteIn this context words like 'lady' or 'love' or (worse) 'lovey' and 'minx' are words that when I hear them used against me or any other woman, I find I interpret as an attempt to demean me. I see it as sexist bullying. A put down if you like.
There are words that people use when when they want to racially bully people, I don't use them because I find their use offensive myself.
I'm not point scoring here, human beings use language to demean others in all sorts of contexts, 'chav' comes to mind- it does have the advantage of not being gendered. Often its a habit and we are not aware of the impact.
I am just trying to make you aware of this in a gender context:)
On violence I've made my position plain, but lets face it as Deano says, unless a weapon is involved a man is, on average, much more likely to severely damage a woman in a violent encounter than a woman is to damage a man. Most men are stronger than most women and even when you take into account the fact that many men far from being physically abusive to women actually fail to defend themselves from a female attack because they have been brought up to 'not hit women' more women are severely hurt by men than vice versa.
ReplyDeleteI just wish 'don't hit women would become 'don't hit people'.
Domestic violence has become a competition between radical frminism and the men's rights agenda. Each is keen to prove greater victimhood. This is divisive and unhelpful, it stops us from seeing the wood from the trees
Its time we all accept that we are at base HUMAN. Humans are all equally flawed there is good and bad in all of us.
If we are to create a less violent world then we need to control our anger because uncontrolled anger breeds violence and is thus self defeating. Thats not the same as saying 'don't be angry' its saying we need to control anger and use it in a determination to make a better world where violence, like letting people starve, throwing them into the despair of long term unemployment, allowing them to die of easily curable diseases are removed from the face of the planet along with war torture and domestic violence. Violence in normal everyday life is never ever acceptable whoever perpetrates it.
That’s how I feel about it and I look forward to a time when a violent act with a female victim can be discussed without people coming in to say ‘What about men’ as though that diminishes the pain and fear of the female victim.
We have a problem about female on male violence and the problem is, at base, a lot to do with our very gendered view of men as invulnerable and strong, women as vulnerable and weak.
That view of women is one that no feminist worthy of the name should ever accept. I find it ironic that rad fems seem to do this all the time. As a woman I find it insulting.
Viewing men as hard unfeeling brutes is just as insulting, men can be vulnerable they are also human and to be human is to be vulnerable. My own father was sufficiently confident in his masculinity to be able show his emotions. He never felt the need to prove he was a man. Our society does something to most men that often prevents this which is a tragedy.
We are not as far apart as you think Deano, the patient explaining has to be done in the first instance because I firmly believe that the majority can be persuaded, but there are some who cannot will not be persuded.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that in the final analysis their numbers will be small and possibly insignfiicant. I should prefer the revolution to be non violent but I accept that violence may be necesary.
However I do believe we should do all we can to eliminate violence from everyday lfe, that is what I was talking about. I was also attempting to point out that there is violence on a much larger scale out there. Indeed the policies of the condems can be seen as acts of violence against the poor the elderly the sick and the vulnerable. Just the sort of people all bullies target.
Morning Deano:
ReplyDeleteGreat post above.
"One of the numbers is larger/bigger than the other.............that.... by common consent means that there is no equivalence"
It is also about how the issue of female abuse/violence is reported. I'm sure I do not need to tell you that I do not condone nor excuse women who commit violence/abuse against children or their partners.
However, what also has to be understood is that every aspect of the media, newspapers, film television repeatedly reinfocrces a skewed vision of women as violent, cruel, manipulative, dishonest liars - malevolent even.
An example.
Remember if you will, recent cases, BabyP, Shannon Matthews.... how their Mother's, no doubt complicit in violence and or abuse, were the ones whose images, character, were dragged through the mud. Demonised as 'the epitome of 'Evil' trupmepted from the mainstream media, on the BBC endlessly.
On Monday, I was on the Tube and picked up a copy of Metro - a man (a paramedic) had been cleared of the murder and abuse of his weeks old child. Having previously abused the baby by twisting it's arm until it broke, the baby eventually died of brain injuries and was found to have multiple fractures and injuries. He had also apprently been abusing the boy's twin sister.
Incredibly, this man was given 3 years for manslaughter. There has been no mention of the plight of the Mother and no mass hysteria about this brutal, sub-human creature in the mass media. Instead, he is viewed and treated as an object of pity.
The link is
here
The story has been expunged from Metro.
morning all.
ReplyDeletenice post on the tomasky thread, montana! can't help but think that glenn beck will indeed find something to prove that god is angry, or some such bollocks...malfunctioning stop-light or summat...
The Standard elaborates on the story.... but the old chestnuts and catalogue of excuses are wheeled out in the case of this brutal, violent man.
ReplyDeleteThe judge said:
"the paramedic had been a "loving, proud and caring father" to the twins but had found it stressful to cope with a demanding job and the responsibilities of being a parent"
So loving in fact that he killed one and seriously injured another.
But, in his case murder is 'excused' because he was 'stressed even though the judge stated he knew this level of violence could lead to serious injury. (surely then the action is pre-meditated and warrants a conviction for 'murder'?)
And then the final 'excuse' is given -- much like the excuse men have been using for years to justify killing women... I 'snapped' - momentary insanity....
"In a sudden and brief loss of temper, soon regretted, you lost patience and control, and hurt Charlie in a way that was unforgivably brutal and shocking"
Yes, he irreparably damaged his own child, left him to suffer for 24 hours before taking him to hospital and then begged for 'forgiveness'.
And the terrible thing is, he was probably doing the same thing to his Wife.
To be fair - I think I read that there are about 38 Peter Brackens in the UK.
ReplyDeleteBut it would be odd that if say only 10% of the population worked in the financial sector that significantly more Peter Brackens did.
(Its not as though the Bracken name is equivalent to Rothschild)
If the numbers were right (or even approximate) then our PB would have something like a 1 in 4 chance of being the FSA chided PB.
That would make it justified to conclude that if we call PB a fucking liar and an inside trader every day for a week we would be justified nearly half the time.....
Plainly if our Peter were to answer the allegation repeatedly put to him and studiously ignored by him then we would not be so justified in our suspicion.
In the meantime that slippery elusiveness that PB is rightly chastised for by those who engage with him here on UT might be said to be........... a clue?....a natural character trait of a manipulative and liar inside trader?
Innocent till proved guilty?
No wait the burden of proof for that is beyond reasonable doubt.
Insider trading ought to be a criminal matter but its really more like a civil action usually ignored or treated with a smack on the wrist - In such cases the matter of proof is down to "on the balance of probability"
@La Rit
ReplyDeleteOf course male DV directed against women generally has more serious physical consequences, but it is important that people should realise it can work the other way.
I was once in a relatively short-lived relationship where, on one occasion, my girlfriend physically attacked me. To restrain her, I had to hold onto her arms.
Afterwards, she wore a short-sleeved top in front of friends, who could see the bruises where I'd gripped her forearms as she struggled to hit me. It was only when I ended the relationship (quite soon after) that I felt able to tell them what had really happened. Some of them were quite relieved, since they'd been worried I might be mistreating her.
Of course I agree with the considered view of my wiser comrades that the real evil in all cases is the abuse/intimidation of the weaker by the stronger.
ReplyDeleteIt angers me and saddens me that so many of my gender don't understand the mixed blessing of that stuff called testosterone delightful as it sometimes is (but which if and when it surges in women can cause a rush of strength sufficient to lift a car from a trapped child).
How much more civilised the world would be if it was insisted that men should retire to the bathroom and have a wank before engaging in debate or making important decisions....
My problem according to my beloved sometime is that I have a gruff voice which can go from gentle and soothing to a very loud tempest in just a few excited words..... Whilst such a voice can be useful for stunning a recalcitrant child or dog it can, at volume, appear very aggressive .
No matter how many times I claim that my loud voice is indicative of excited enthusiasm my beloved don't agree. Mind you that could be because I am hitting/pounding the brick wall (sometimes with my head) whilst desperately shouting at it in my wild desire to be understood.
Not easy this human communication business is it?
Could well be that God is a woman 'cos a lot of younger men still don't know that the bloody testosterone stuff turns against them when they get older - its thought to involved with the tedious prostate/pissing problems that older males frequently develop.
Perhaps we would all do well to think of the wise words of the late George Melly who in his very old age when confronted by his falling libido said ( words to the effect)."......thank fucking God at last ...it's like being unchained from a life with a lunatic.."
dog walking calls.
@Jay:
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Suzanne Steinmetz is female doesn't mean that she's more credible than the far more numerous male researchers who disagree about a gender-equivalence to DV and it doesn't mean that she doesn't have an axe to grind.
Another excellent article about the notion can be found here -- written by a man, no less.
Jesus Christ, another car crash night.
ReplyDeleteA variant on Spikes tale before I go for the day.
ReplyDeleteIn one notable rage between me and my sometime I was determined not to shout and in 'enthused' desperation to make my point I picked up a marker pen and used our living room walls as a blackboard....
I wrote my message in large letters all over the wall and said to her "...there surely to god even you can read and understand that..."
I admit there was a bit of gesticulating and finger wagging and pointing as I was writing but nothing to justify her response.....
....She phoned the doctor and claimed that she had indelible evidence written on the living room wall that I was a lunatic and she wanted me committed to the nuthouse.
I'm buggered if I know why I still adore her but I do. Have to say our relationship is still occasionally stormy but so much easier now that we don't live under one roof.
I do not make light of the serious matter.
The abuse of the weaker by the stronger is not on - and I can understand Hank's et al angst at the studied avoidance of that wider truth in the economic/class/political sphere by the issue focussed victimista
I was so very sorry (and ashamed for my gender) when I read that Leni had had to deal with a violent realtionship in the past. It was just the same sorrow that I felt for Montana when I read the same in one of her posts last year.
It's thus all the harder for me to understand Hank's repetitive personalised pot shots at Montana a practice which can only diminish him and cloud his reputation.
Perhaps he too was once a victim, but he is a very intelligent and informed man who in person is both charming and a well built 6' 3" ish chap.
As I said the art and practice of communication is sometimes a mystery
And Montana I do think you need to take some constructive criticisms. You went shouting and swearing at Deano of all people a few days ago, although you apologised afterwards at least.
ReplyDeleteWhen I had my 'car crash' back in May, all I said was that I believed people had individual responsibility and were in control of their own destinies and you went on ranting that I was saying 'the poor are poor because of their own fault', when I never said such a thing.
That Quote in Full:
ReplyDelete"What others think of us would be of little moment did it not, when known, so deeply tinge what we think of ourselves. Or make us go swivel-eye shouty smash-smash."
Other than that, no hard feelings Montana.
ReplyDeleteI am at a bit of a crossroads in my life at the moment, and very busy so I won't be on the internet much.
Re, DV. My mum had to flee, literally, with me and my then baby brother to a women's refuge. That was pretty scary.
As to women, mothers exactly, putting their kids down, psychologically and emotionally abusing them, particularly their sons- it is true that it has a bad effect. I have stories to tell of this, not sometihng I am going to share on the internet though.
Montana
ReplyDeleteAs ever, thanks for this site. It may get grim sometimes but good stuff arises like mushrooms out of the bullcrap.
Montana thanks for the link to the Flood article.
ReplyDeleteThis short paragraph was of particular interest to me and may explain why I am so upset when people get shouty even when its not at me.
Rather than seeing domestic violence as referring only to physical acts such as hitting or pushing, we need to recognise that verbal, psychological and emotional abuse is an important aspect of domestic violence.
OMG thats exactly what my ex did - it took me over 20 years to recover from it.
When there is a car wreck on here or someone on Cif is verbally abusive about other people, a small part of me still curls up in a ball and sticks her fingers in her ears.
Its very very damaging and yes a man did it to me...
...but women are very good at it too. Especially if they suffer from PMS.
BTW I am NOT citing PMS as an excuse, but it is a reason why some women, who are usually nice normal human beings do turn into a total abusive nightmare once a month. Its still not taken as seriously as it should be.
My daughter used to suffer from it, she had depressionas well so I've been through it really - so has she! Everything wonderful now though we are best pals. :-)
Morning everyone
ReplyDeleteI see it was a somewhat fractious evening yesterday. Agree with Anne - anger is useful but only when used productively and I have to say Paul, that I think you blew it last night, descending into name calling and abuse, consequently undermining anything useful you were trying to say. Still onward and upward.
Which brings me on to that mega arsehole Donald Trump, who is trying to ruin a beautiful stretch of coastline in Aberdeenshire. He is now resorting to some pretty dirty tactics and if people would like to support the campaign please have a look at this
Tripping up Trump
Have received a letter this morning giving me an appointment to see a specialist on Tuesday. They're moving very fast on this. Don't know whether to be worried or thankful.
Hey LaRit, hopes all well.
ReplyDeleteMontana, i wasnt claiming her femaleness made her research superior, was questioning the idea that only males with axes to grind had ever published research showing an equivalence of *frequency* between female and male DV. It was this precise view that got Pizzey exiled by the sisters - the woman who set up the first shelter in the UK.
The Steinmetz and Gilles research was done twice - the second time they took onboard the criticisms they received (well, those ones that werent abuse, death threats or attempts to silence them and have their tenure removed). So they switched to self reporting - they interviewed men and women separately and asked them how often they initiated violence against their partner and vice versa - they got the same results.
They also agreed on the issue of the more serious violence being male dominated (but not exclusively). But the finding of high levels of female violence caused an extremely serious backlash from the unpleasant end of the fem spectrum - who have earned themselves quite a reputation for disgraceful smears, threats, intimidation and character assassination.
Look what happened to Nick Davies as a recent example. This is a highly organised, well funded, vocal and aggressive lobby - Bindel and co. The Neil Lyndon case is another good example of the public smearing you get for querying their doctrine. So we are not dealing with a free area of academic dispute - this is intensely political, charged, and guarded - and hence distorted.
I cant be bothered to wheel all my links out - i've bored everyone with them too many times already ;)
Hope all is ok with the specialist, Sheff.
ReplyDeletewoo hoo!
ReplyDeletehave found flatmate!
can bring first month's rent and deposit tomorrow and move in immediately current coloc moves out!
hurrah!
(sorry, am just bloody relieved)
aye, sheff, good luck - and best not to be left hanging around, think. will be thinking positive thoughts in your direction...
ReplyDeleteGood news PhilB - what's this coloc word I'm unfamiliar?
ReplyDeleteThoughts and best wishes are with you Sheff - fortunately whatever, you are made of powerful and strong stuff and will give the impertinent colic/flux thing no fucking chance.
You should warn/tell it to settle itself or it will be spit from a high balcony.........by a charming lass who wears purple now she can.... xx.
Montana/ Anybody - has the sign in password for the UT photo site changed ?
I can't get the one sent to us all when it was set up to work??
Best of luck on Tues, Sheff.
ReplyDeleteCongrats to Philippa.
Best of luck on Tues Sheff, will be thinking of you.
ReplyDeletecolocataire - housemate?
ReplyDeleteThat's brilliant, Philippa. Congrats.
as shaz says, coloc = colocataire = flatmate.
ReplyDeletehave a head full of annoying online flatshare adverts, have started picking up the lingo...
Afternoon all
ReplyDeleteLast night i said that in the most cases UK women are equally responsible for subjecting their partners and children to DV.What i didn,t stress strongly enough was that women are more likely to come off worse.For whilst i did say women are 3 times more likley to get killed i failed to achknowledge the outcome of non fatal cases.For instance if in the heat of an argument a woman punches a man in the face she is guilty of DV.However if he hits her back and breaks her nose he is also guilty of DV but the outcome is worse for her than him.But they were both still guilty of DV.And she shouldn,t have hit him first.I also stand by the points i made with regard to the role women play in both subjecting children to DV and encouraging a culture of violence both within families and the wider community.However i hope i didn,t imply that the role of women in these matters somehow detracted from the violence of men.I do also remember saying that i thought most men and women were decent so why i was accused of being a misogynist and a bigot is beyond me
Neither myself,LaRit nor Montana provided any links to back our arguments although we all quoted sources.So we were all at fault there.And whilst i take full responsibility for my temper i think both LaRit and Montana should reflect on the fact that both of them weren,t blameless either.If you remember LaRit you switched the 'conversation' from the one we were having about your intervention with the Hank/Monkeyfish spat to implying i am a misogynist because of my views on DV.So there was provocation on both sides.And i notice you,ve kept that up today by referring to me as a troll.
Anyway where i do agree with Montana is that i think it,s best we ignore each other as we,re both extremely adept at rubbing each other up the wrong way.
I hope you and i can still be cyber mates LaRit.Untill last night i didn,t think we had a problem with each other.However if you don,t want to communicate with me in future then fair enough.
@anne/deano/sheff
I take on board the points you all made.And Anne i hope will be able to accept my apology so there is no bad 'cyber' blood between us.And i hope it all goes well for you on tuesday shefff.
Having to fill in one of these online psychometric tests for trying to apply to work at Boots-- like the one I did at Mcdonalds.
ReplyDeleteThis is Orwellian. Not only that, an issue of data protection. It now seems that in all jobs you are expected to apply online, going through the idiotic processes- each requiring a password and each giving your personal data. Sod it. If a company want me to waste precious time on an it, then I won't bother.
And to think that yesterday and the day before, people were telling me to go round handing out my CV-- that simply does not work anymore. I am extremly worried about the data protection issue, something you dno't get with paper CVs.
Charlie
ReplyDeleteYou are in a classic dilemma here - go with a system you oppose and possibly get a job - or reject the system and all its ways and remain unemployed.
Paul no worries - don't hold grudges! As I explained above I find verbal aggression 'difficult'.
ReplyDeleteShould stay out of it I guess! :-)
I need some advice assistance from my UT friends down South if you please??
ReplyDeleteI really must visit the Henry Moore exhibition at the Tate Britain (Milbank nr Vauxhall Bridge Road nearest tune Pimlico Victoria line) by Sunday 8th August latest (exhibition ends after that date.
Best/cheapest route for me is a bus from Sheffield but they don't let dogs on.
So.........
I need a cheapish place to park me car somewhere down London way that would give me access to a park (for Mungo to stretch his legs before I leave him for a couple of hours or so.) and then access to the tube network.
(Mungo will sleep ion the car whilst I'm gone)
Anybody know of a suitable location? A multi story car-park at a reasonable rate would be fine - are they cheaper on friday/saturday/sunday?
Whats the economics look like on the central car-parks and congestion charge etc?? viz a fringe location then the tube.
If it's on a non residents allowed street it would need trees/shade in case its a sunny day. I always leave all the windows open if I have to leave me dog in the car. I'm not over bothered about me car being nicked but I wouldn't want to take an unnecessary risk of Mungo being nicked (I know that sounds unlikely but some folk really do find the bastard charming)
Any thoughts/advice would be welcome.
I have to make the effort to see the xhibition 'cos there is reputed to be a photo in it of Henry Moore sketching me dad at the coalface of a Yorks pit in January 1942.
If there is an after life I will oneday get me arse kicked by me lovely mam if I don't make the effort to go see me dad......He wouldn't fussed but she would.
Anybody who will let me park me car on their street/driveway will be bought a beer or two.
I need to take Mungo 'cos I'm hoping to take a few days wild camping in Kent (Sutton Vallance way were I once worked on the farms when a lad) (Mungo and I travel light and we sleep in the back of my Citroen xantia estate car when we are on the road)
Stoaty (If you still read here) I might be persuaded to call by Borstal and buy you a jar you old bastard??
Likewise if I'm passing anybody else's place I would be pleased to try to stop and say hello to any of our Southern UT comrades.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHavent got a car Deano so not sure really, google might be able to suggest a few things with some effort. Or post it on Yahoo questions or something.
ReplyDeleteDouble posting deleted above
ReplyDeletedeano,
ReplyDeleteI guess using the excellent Oxford Tube (www.oxfordtube.com) would leave Mungo alone in the car for too long? I know there are shady spots in Thornhill park and ride on the Oxford ring road. (I have friends in Oxford and we've used it to go to London from there)
deano
ReplyDeleteMy first instinct is; screw driving accross London, it will spoil your day. I would look at Brent Cross shopping centre - easy - M1 more or less straight there, HUGE car park - probably some areas with trees - and close to bus and tube. Circa 40 minutes (an hour max if unlucky) by public transport to Millbank. If it's a nice day, get the bus !
Hope this helps.
Thanks comrades - Brent Cross looks promising its got a multi story/free parking.
ReplyDeleteFucking hell parking in central London is expensive in the week! £000's but a lot lot cheaper at the weekends talking £200+ per day down to £25 at the week end.
Found one near tower bridge that looks like £16 for 24 hrs on a Sunday - Mungo and I could possibly have an overnight in central London thrown in -
food for thought on two options so far
Keep the suggestions coming if you have any ideas.
That google map facility is great you can zoom in and have a look - I think I found a park open green/grass area with lake/pond near Brent Cross for Mungo to take a swim in.
ReplyDeleteHe just loves swimming. The prospect of/or the relax after a swim now that would cheer him whilst I was away for a few hours.
Do I want to sleep in a car with a wet smelly dog?......the good side of 50 years of heavy smoking is that you don't have many smell buds left in working order and anyway I can always douse the bastard in aftershave.
Promising sugggestion BW well done my friend that's a help.
Ah just zoomed in - it's Brent reservoir. It would have to be a post visit treat.
ReplyDeleteIf the bastard got in there it would be difficult to get him out till he was ready.
For Mungo there no finer pastime than backstroking/paddling along a nice stretch of water at a leisurely pace. It is one of the few things that can make him oblivious to my commands.
(memo to deano pack a long metal chain for the swimming )
If anyone is interested they can google 'Government Statistics on Domestic Violence'.I,ve tried to provide a link but it,s not working.Anyway if people are seriously interested in this issue they need to read the whole report because it gives an inconclusive picture as to what % of the victims of DV are male.It varies anything from 25% to 50%.And in effect challenges all of us who were involved in last nights spat.
ReplyDeleteIf people are interested i,ll try and track down the links for the other sources i quoted.Plus proof of the claims that allegations have been made that some branches of WomensAid are not helping male victims of DV.And may lose their funding because of that.
Just signed into Resistance Coalition - only about 60 offers of help so far.
ReplyDeleteI have suggested email group for initial local contacts - hopefully to lead to get togethers of potential activists.
Hi Martyn - saw you there.
Lots of media, film makers and photographers signing up.
"colocataire" - thanks for that Shaz/PhilB
ReplyDeleteAs a word it has a nice tasty look about it. I can just imagine Piaf whispering it to me in her delicious French accent.......
al la " hey up deano fancy a colocataire.."
Who could possibly resist.
Our Brazilain based friend from Hull on holiday?
If anybody has any stats on DV for Buddhist communities/countries I would be interested.
ReplyDeleteI've often wondered if an upbringing that encourages a respect for the lives of all things, even vicious wasps, could overcome/override the lunacy of the testro/alcho fueled aggression of many Euro males.
I read recently that the number of female deaths this year by jealousy crazed ex lovers in Italy was at frightening levels this year.
From what I heard briefly on the news it sounds that we might have another jealousy driven out of control killing of innocents on our hands.
Paul - anyone else who's interested
ReplyDeleteHere's a link to the Government statistscs on domestic violence.
It covers the period 1995 - 2007.
Over the period, the proportions of male victims, based on estimated numbers of incidents, has varied between 19% and 34%, with a mean of about 26%. Since male victims tend to suffer fewer repeat incidents against them than female victims, the proportions of actual male victims are higher than those based on numbers of incidents shown on these figures..
The more detailed BCS supplemental surveys specifically aimed at interpersonal violence detect much higher proportions of male victims, in the range of 37% to 50% for a last-year period [see below].
Not sure what 'interpersonal violence' means - would that just be wives/female partners/sisters/mothers - or include brothers, fathers, male partners, other family members like uncles/aunts/grandparents etc because DV isn't just about spousal violence but can be intergenerational, sibling etc etc..
sheff
ReplyDeleteCheers for that.I referred to that piece of research in my last post but couldn,t get the bloody link to work.
Sheff
ReplyDeleteThe stats are unclear. Many seem to include in 'interpersonal violence' male on male - they also include 'one off' attacks.
Leni
ReplyDeleteI agree the stats aren't that clear - especially what is meant by 'interpersonal' - which is not explained.
Started to look at some more stats. These are interesting, from the ONS
Crime
stats by gender
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"...The estimates are based on people reporting actions against them perceived as crimes. Since not all people regard domestic abuse against them, even if serious, as a crime, particularly young men, and therefore may not report it (or wish to admit it) to crime surveys, these Home Office crime estimates are likely to significantly under-estimate the actual extent of domestic violence, particularly against young men...." (deanos bold)
ReplyDeleteWe might call these 'suggestive' statistics....
I wouldn't hang anybody on them.
scrambled post deleted above
ReplyDeleteWell you know what they say about stats Deano...
ReplyDeleteFact is though whilst women are more vulnerable to violence domestically, according to the ONS:
Men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women. Over 5 per cent of men and just under 3 per cent of women aged 16 and over in England and Wales were the victims of some sort of violence in the twelve months prior to interview in 2002/03. Men and women aged 16 to 24 are the most at risk age group. Around 15 per cent of men and 7 per cent women of this age reporting that some sort of violence had been used against them.
So young men, more than any other group, are much more at risk from violence generally - largely it seems, from each other.
WHO definition:
ReplyDelete"Interpersonal violence is defined to include violence between family members and intimate partners and violence between acquaintances and strangers that is not intended to further the aims of any formally defined group or cause. Selfdirected violence, war, state-sponsored violence and other collective violence are specifically excluded from these definitions".
deano/sheff/leni
ReplyDeleteThe problem with DV is that so much is unreported.Which is why it makes it so difficult to interpret statistics.And which is why i said in my earlier post that all of us involved in last nights spat are in effect challenged by them.
@sheff-no question that a minority of men are responsible for the majoirty of crime in general.But is that sufficient to justify playing down or ignoring DV committed by women in their familial relationships?.I feel there is a strong cultural reluctance in this country to acknowledge just how abusive women can be.And like an iceberg womens more destructive qualities are often hidden from view.(And just for the record-again-i,m talking about a minority of women.)
A few years ago a guy called Neil Lyndon wrote a book called 'Not Guilty' .And in that book he described DV -if memory serves me correctly- as a 'Sacred Cow of Feminism that wouldn,t be slain'.And i beleieve he has a point.Because so much of rad fem dogma in particular rests on this notion that men are bastards and women are either victims or paragons of virtue.And by stealth this rad fem notion has played a key role in underpinning the way DV is dealt with in this country.Plus of course there is a reluctance of many decent men and women to accept that the female of the species can be every bit as deadly as the male.
Sheff - More at risk from suicide too if I recall readings correctly.
ReplyDeleteIf I'd been using the stats I might have said something to the effect that
".............there is a significant and growing trend of reported domestic violence against males which is difficult/impossible to read/quantify because of a probable under reporting by males reluctant to admit to it suffering it..."
BTW do you know if the password/entry code for the UT photo site has changed from that given out by Montana when it was set up??
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePaul - one thing that might have been said ...is that whatever the stats it's possibly easier for a male to walk/run away from a DV situation.
ReplyDeleteAlbeit that when kids are involved it can be equally heart breaking for both sexes if they do feel able to consider 'walking'
(Guess we would have to also look at the male/female stalking stats though)
That last post of mine wass badly worded.Will do it agaian later.
ReplyDeleteThat post is full of errors too.Fuck it i can,t be arsed now.Will do it later.
ReplyDeleteIn so far as DV is exacerbated by external insecurities and daily hassle and fears, then sadly its likely to increase as the ConLibs get to work.
ReplyDeleteI think it was Duke who observed a while ago that it can accelerate in the different parts of Glasgow on a Saturday according to the football results. I guess that would be the same in all large cities/towns in the UK
Paul
ReplyDeleteThe focus has been on DV by men against women because ordinary women fought hard and long to have it recognised as a problem at a time when the police wouldn't intervene in what they called 'domestics' and women had little protection. It would be true to say that at this time - back in the late 60s/70s DV was seen as a problem for women, and women on men spousal violence wasn't considered.
It was Erin Pizzey who opened the first women's refuge back in 1971 in Chiswick. She was subsequently attacked by a lunatic fringe from the women's movement for drawing attention to the idea of reciprocal violence.
This wiki page is pretty accurate and goes into the problems Pizzey had.
I assure you it is not only blokes who suffer from the maniacs - we all do. Thats not to say that a feminist perspective isn't a useful tool. But thats all it is - a tool/perspective and it has contributed to many major social improvements - for us all.
@Montana: "But I'd suggest to you that, if you don't have a point, you might want to resist throwing random anecdotes into contentious dicussions and it runs the risk of making things worse."
ReplyDeleteWell, I did have a point to make. It just wasn't the one you would have preferred I was making;).
sheff
ReplyDeleteThanks for that.I am however fully aware of the work of Erin Pizzey and have taken some serious flak from rad fems for using it.For she stated that 60% of the first 100 women who entered her Chiswick refuge were just as violent as the men they had left.And as you may know she,S also highly critical of WomensAid as well for what she perceives to be their anti-male approach to DV.
Also a point i was perhaps not making too well earlier is that by stealth this lunatic fringe of the feminist movement as you described it,has had a disproportionate input into the way the whole issue of DV is addressed in this country.Seem to remember Doris Lessing had a lot to say about that as well.
Paul
ReplyDeleteHave a look at this The Mankind initiative which offers support for male victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence which Erin Pizzey set up.
They're desperately short of money and if anyone can afford to send a donation they'd be intensely grateful. I don't understand why they don't get more support - you'd think all the blokes (especially) who go on about how unlevel the playing field is these days would be clamouring to support them but apparently not.
I think it's true that a
ReplyDelete'lunatic fringe of the feminist movement... has had a disproportionate input into the way the whole issue of DV is addressed'
Not only with DV either. Having said that I still think there's a place for feminism amongst all the competing perspectives and looking through that lens can be enlightening and open up a different view.
There are lunatic fringes everywhere - arguably we have a lunatic neocon fringe in gov at the moment about to trash all our most valued
institutions and punish the the most vulnerable in our society to boot.
@deano
ReplyDeleteI can just imagine Piaf whispering it to me
I think I'd be rather alarmed if I had long-dead women whispering to me.
Did someone say lunatic fringe?
ReplyDeleteI had a lunatic fringe once I decided to cut it myself and got a bit carried away, I ended up looking like Rowan Atkinson in Blackadder I, not a good look for a teenage girl, I didn't get asked out for a while.
ReplyDeleteWhat others think of us would be of little moment did it not, when known, so deeply tinge what we think of ourselves
ReplyDeleteLet’s see if what I think of you manages to tinge what you think of yourselves. Difficult to know which of the following is the most vomit inducing:
Paul’s foul mouthed, hate-filled gibberish
Paul’s whining about how he loves his ‘cyber-buddies’
Paul’s lachrymose self-pity
Paul,s inability to distinguish an apostrophe from a comma (it,s too often to be a slip)
Peter Bracken’s pompous verbosity
Peter Bracken’s eighth-rate intellect
Peter Bracken’s general twatiness
Hank Scorpio’s working-class hero routine
Hank Scorpio’s post-booze apologies
Hank Scorpio’s delusion that he was the king of posters on CiF prior to his more than justified ban
Montana Wildhack’s drama queen hysterics
Montana Wildhack’s unerring ability to find an insult in anything said
Scherfig’s self-righteous anger in his periodic, repetitious calls for the more intelligent debate that he wrongly thinks himself so well-equipped for
Which of them is the winner in the UT shit-stakes, do you reckon?
The rest of you seem like good people, some of you are lovely, but the overall lesson of UT is that CiF is wise to have a moderation policy.
sheff
ReplyDeleteCheers for that.I,ve heard of Mankind and like a lot of charities involved in DV they rely heavily on donations.Of course one of the problems at the moment is that male victims-irrespective of orientation or whether they have kids-have very few places they can go compared to female victims.Which is probably one reason why WomensAid is coming under attack by LA,S for not doing enough to help men.
I often talk about Kids Company which is a well known charity here in London which basically helps kids who the statutory agencies have given up on.The Founder of Kids Company is now an advisor to David Cameron although her interest is purely apolitical.I would be interested what your views are on THIS ARTICLE which whilst dealing with Black women in particular highlights a dimension to the problem of DV which i think is a problem in varying degrees across the whole spectrum of society.And before any rad fems jump on me i,m not in any way playing down or ignoring the role of men as perpetrators of DV.
Also according to Social Trends,the government annual bible for demographic trends etc the majority of victims of non sexual abuse in this country are boys.If you want i,ll try and dig out a link because the statistic i,m quoting is a couple of years old but i can,t see why it would have changed much.Also the NSPCC has been trying to raise awareness of emotional and psychological abuse of children.For a child,like an adult,can be destroyed without laying a finger on them.And the majority of the perpertrators of this type of abuse,along with other forms of non sexual DV are women.
UTWatcher
ReplyDeleteGuilty as charged as far as the OCCASIONAL temper tantrum and the regular mixing up of apostrophes and comma,s go.Dispute the self pity charge.And whilst i like most people on UT i wasn,t aware that i was continually proclaiming my love for them.Anyway 2 out of 4 ain,t bad.
Now let,s try and think who you might be!
Easy UTWatcher, it ain't a competetion.
ReplyDeleteRight I'm out of my depth on this DV talk, but suffice to say I've agreed - in person - over a few drinks - with at least two regular feminist posters here - that, bottom line, abuse is abuse.
I'm off to shell some peas while watching Blade Runner. Might have a Speckled Hen or three too.
Mmm... Speckled Hen...
Hi UT watcher
ReplyDeleteIs it me or does nobody ever just drop by and say hi over here, it always has to be the big entrance!
but the overall lesson of UT is that CiF is wise to have a moderation policy.
ReplyDeleteDo you think so UTWatcher? I guess cif probably does need a mod policy - pity the mods themselves are so inconsistent though and so frequently over step the mark, deleting intelligent polemical posts, whilst leaving up really moronic, offensive ones so often.
The UT isn't that kind of place though - its small, people have got to know each other. We have spats and sometimes people get pissed and go over the top - but I think we can and should accommodate that, since it seems to be part of the human condition for people to behave like dick heads occasionally.
We do seem to attract a disproportionate amount of interest from lurkers though. I've never really understood why.
However, if you want to stick around and join in, please feel free.
Sheff perhaps it is time to have one of those delurk threads that Cif has from time to time when they find they have banned too many people. :)
ReplyDeleteIt had begun to snow again. He watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. The time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead.
ReplyDeleteJames Joyce, The Dead.
Of course there are lurkers, the online counter tells me there are 23 posters from Britain alone. The number of regular posters from these shores must be only about 15 tops.
ReplyDeleteAlthough they could be 'old flames'. After all this site has over 50 followers but really there are never more than 20-25 regular posters.
Wow, check this out. I just found it. Written by a mate about thirty years ago; early thatcher era
ReplyDelete.
Multi-National Blockheads
These guys,
in their executive suites,
making executive decisions
about what to do
with the world…
What a bunch of pricks…
How did they get there…
Who authorised their madness…
Who gave them the wherewithal….
They are like greedy somnambulants run amok
carrying out their own interpretations
of the directives of the common understanding
as distorted by their greedy somnambulance…
But they're only an offshoot…
They're only operating on part of the programme….
The rest of it is still developing…
But they're so mindless
and so greedily energetic
that they don't notice…..
And what are the weapons available to the rest of us,
the rest of us contributors to the common understanding,
in what must become a battle
to get these guys to calm down…
The rest of us can't even communicate with each other
without resorting to mediums
administrated by these madmen,
mediums left in the control of a few
in order to facilitate
the ongoing consumption of the planet….
The thing is
they think they're the cream
or even the end product
of the common understanding…
But what they are
is delegates….
They've been delegated
to get on with administering the practical implications
of some of the more recent
and more shattering
contributions to the common understanding
in the best interests of us all….
They think they're the point,
but they're beside the point….
While they're freaking out over the profitability of the practical implications,
the rest of us
are still trying
to extend the common understanding….
The trouble is
these guys are so serious
in their commitment to distorted objectives
that there's a good chance
that the common understanding
won't ever extend
from here…
And we have to decide
either to do something about it
or accept that this colossal experiment in consciousness
was a failure….
The Common Understanding
ReplyDeleteThe Common Understanding
is the fund of knowledge
into which we are born;
from which we spring
on our journeys through
human consciousness.....
The beauty of the Common Understanding
is that
it is assembled over many centuries
by ultimately selfless people...
In their journeys through human consciousness
many people forget the indefinable nature
of the task facing them....
They forget that they are here to learn
and to contribute...
In the course of this forgetting
many of us become petty and selfish...
But this only lasts a short time
because people die
and in this ultimately selfless act
they leave behind what they have discovered
in their journey...
The sum total of all these discoveries
that those of us still journeying
can remember or record
is the Common Understanding....
The sum total
of these recorded or remembered discoveries
becomes the best answer
that we, through the generations,
can provide
to the question
"Why are we here....?"
-----------
Damn right he was a total hippy. One of the finest I 've met.
I care nothing for their game, where beauty goes unrecognised.
ReplyDeleteWish I'd found the original version, but that will have to do.
Evening all
ReplyDeleteCan't believe that's two nights in a row I haven't finished til after 8pm. I am bloody knackered. Got a day at home tomorrow though, as lots of paperwork to do, and Dad coming over.
Deano - wish I could offer you and Mungo a bed for the night, but we are still in turmoil with decorating, carpetting, clearing out junk. Currently the lad is in the spare room in a small bed, his old bedroom is being gutted and renewed, and every room in the house is a bloody tip. The first 6yd skip has gone, but we are seriously thinking about getting another one...
Re female DV - I generally agree with Jay's analysis.
I don't think I will look at what happened in the thread after I went to bed last night.... :P
Sheff - hope you are ok. xx
It's still that same old movie that's haunting me.
ReplyDeletePaul - I think that one of the biggest barriers to serious campaigning over female on male violence is the mens groups who turn the whole issue into a competition. They seem to think that proving that female violence is more common JUSTIFIES male violence. They forget that two wrongs don't make a right.
ReplyDeleteThe article Sheff linked to upthread had this to say
There are five ways in which the agendas and activities of fathers' rights groups in relation to domestic violence are harmful for men themselves.
1. They focus on the wrong target (women or feminism, rather than unhealthy and destructive models of manhood). As far as violence done to men is concerned, for example, the problem primarily is violent models of manhood and an ethic of mutual combat and honour in masculine culture. To end the violence we will have to change these models, such that toughness, aggression and insensitivity stop ruling men's lives.
2. They taint as backlash the call for recognition of violence experienced by men. The more quickly that people such as the Lone Fathers' Association drop their obsession with proving that domestic violence is gender-equal, the easier it will be for others to hear of the fact of men's subjection to domestic violence The whole focus on proving that women hit men as much as the reverse is a monumental distraction from the very real need to get services and support for male victims.
3. They antagonise potential supporters. Attacking existing services for female survivors (or feminism in general), does male survivors of violence a disservice. It is an attack on the very people who brought the issue of interpersonal violence to public attention in the first place and who have been leaders in this field. It unnecessarily antagonises the women and men in existing anti-violence services who could be usefully involved in responding to male survivors and who could be key supporters of services directed at male victims.
4. They are based on a simplistic "You've got it, we want it too" logic which may not provide the most appropriate services for men. It is striking how often the things men's rights men call for are the mirror image of things established by three decades of women's movements. You've got a women's health centre or a refuge, we want a men's one, and so on. This "us too" approach is motivated more by a knee-jerk logic of equality than by an informed appraisal of the kinds of services men are going to use and like.
5. They undermine the protections available to both female and male victims of violence. Fathers' rights groups have criticised and attacked the operation of Domestic Violence Orders or Apprehended Violence Orders, claiming that false allegations of domestic violence and child abuse are routinely made and that alleged victims of such crimes are too readily believed. These efforts undermine the safety and protection available to both female and male victims of violence.
I would add that the radical feminist agenda which seems to have completely taken over the feminist movement is similarly guilty, especially in their doctrinaire men = violent women = victim approach. As I have said before this denies the plight of male victims and patronises/infantilises women. Quite an achievement.
Until we can wrest the initiatives on this topic away from both these groups there will be little hope of men and women addressing their behaviour both as victims and perpetrators in a way that even stands a chance of solving these problems.
Irs depressing and frustrating.
Ma Piaf preferee..
ReplyDeleteHello and welcome UTWatcher - glad you enjoy the show, or at least enough to offer a lurker/critic's view.
ReplyDeleteYour welcome to try mould the UT to your own image if you wish.....can be fun, sometimes frustrating, and occasionally tempestuous and bloody.
What the hell it's the Internet stupid. (to paraphrase rather than abuse a new visitor)
As you say there are a goodly number of folk of generous spirit here, no matter then that there will never be agreement on who belongs with the saints and who the sinners.
You should join, membership is free and if I understand it you can't get bonus points here by lurking forever. Golden rule is that your only as good, or bad, as your last post no matter how promising or dismal your start.
thauma enjoyed that, perhaps you should add it to the UT reads (if you ain't already)
Right pleasant evening here in Yorks so it's me and Mungo out for a walk - laters fine friends.
It was a windowless erection used for storage, and from the open door there floated into the obscurity a mist of yellow radiance, which at first Tess thought to be illuminated smoke. But on drawing nearer she perceived that it was a cloud of dust, lit by candles within the outhouse, whose beams upon the haze carried forward the outline of the doorway into the wide night of the garden.
ReplyDeleteWhen she came close and looked in she beheld indistinct forms racing up and down to the figure of the dance, the silence of their footfalls arising from their being overshoe in "scroff"--that is to say, the powdery residuum from the storage of peat and other products, the stirring of which by their turbulent feet created the nebulosity that involved the scene. Through this floating, fusty DEBRIS of peat and hay, mixed with the perspirations and warmth of the dancers, and forming together a sort of vegeto-human pollen, the muted fiddles feebly pushed their notes, in marked contrast to the spirit with which the measure was trodden out. They coughed as they danced, and laughed as they coughed. Of the rushing couples there could barely be discerned more than the high lights--the indistinctness shaping them to satyrs clasping nymphs--a multiplicity of Pans whirling a multiplicity of Syrinxes; Lotis attempting to elude Priapus, and always failing.
...
Tess soon perceived as she walked in the flock, sometimes with this one, sometimes with that, that the fresh night air was producing staggerings and serpentine courses among then men who had partaken too freely; some of the more careless women also were wandering in their gait[...]; and the young married woman who had already tumbled down. Yet however terrestrial and lumpy their appearance just now to the mean unglamoured eye, to themselves the case was different. They followed the road with a sensation that they were soaring along in a supporting medium, possessed of original and profound thoughts, themselves and surrounding nature forming an organism of which all the parts harmoniously and joyously interpenetrated each other. They were as sublime as the moon and stars above them, and the moon and stars were as ardent as they.
The point I am trying to make from the few excerpts (last was from Tess of the d'Urbervilles, sorry) and links is that we all seem to be searching for a sense of community and belonging. And not finding it very well.
ReplyDeleteDeano
ReplyDeleteJust seen this in The Graun:
"One of the rarest sights in the English night sky could be visible after sunset tonight, provided one of the most common – cloud cover – does not get in the way.
A series of solar eruptions have sent the northern lights further south than usual in the last five days, and clear skies after dark give an outside chance of catching the vivid neon glow as far south as Yorkshire and Lancashire".
So there's a chance we might even see 'em!
Ms Chin
ReplyDeleteThe cloud cover is solid up here. :(
Hope you have better luck.
Deano, thanks, and good idea. It's been called the best short story ever written, and in many ways I'd have to agree, although I'm not otherwise much of a Joyce fan.
ReplyDeleteThe film version by John Huston (starring Anjelica, and his last film) is also very, very good.
Bitters that those poems were awesome!
ReplyDeleteHave saved them ...
What was his name? Not that it matters I suppose.
Definitely a human being and I don't throw that title around. :-)
Anne
ReplyDeleteGreat post - couldn't agree more.
Thauma/BW
Lovely posts too - and point taken.
BB - one of Ediths finest for me too.
ReplyDeleteMy dear young miss don't be soft - you most certainly would not want Mungo in your house.
If he gets one on him 'cos he was left in the car/mobile kennel longer than he thinks right then he will spend the night snoring and farting a protest. He mistakenly thinks I can be made to feel guilty.
Be assured if he is particularly offended he can do both loud enough to keep the street awake.
Out of respect for humanity and the sanctity of harmonious friendship when we travel he has to sleep in the car which is really a mobile kennel adapted for beast and man. He would whine the street down if left to sleep alone. I think he's scared of the dark.
But thank you for the kind thought.
xx.
Oh Chin you lovely lady thanks for that alert.
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping 2010 is going to be the year for the 50 year cycle which will take me to the Northern edge of Scotland wild camping this autumn/winter....
If not 2010 then before 2013 definite!
anne
ReplyDeleteGreat post. Except the rad fems are just a faction - the voice of reason can still be heard!
jen
Happened the other year & it was too cloudy then! Fingers crossed, eh?
tbh, I'll probably fall asleep & miss it. But the aurora is something I would love to see, just once in my life.
thauma & BW
Same as the others said.
Ms Chin
ReplyDeleteAny idea what time it is likely to be brightest?
Hi annettan
ReplyDeleteThanks - he's a very old mate of mine - I'll tell him
Back later... good luck with the skywatch...
yes Mschin but its the combination of them and the mens rights crowd that feed on each other. The rad fems are the dominant faction. I believe its because the powers that be can use them to deflect support away from the reasonable majority - the same way that they use stalinism to smear socialism really!
ReplyDeleteBut yes we have to make sure that the voice of reason is heard and we must not be discouraged.
Jen - the world centre for nightly projections and timings is the Uni of Alaska at Poker Flats
ReplyDeleteGoogle Nothern Lights I think it's listed
They have a public website with masses of info
will tell you more when back from me walk
Thanks Deano. :)
ReplyDeletejen
ReplyDeleteSorry, no idea, don't think it's that easy to predict the time.
anne
I don't think either of those groups have much real influence, tbh. It's media hype that creates that impression. And we won't be discouraged, just more determined.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHe also proposed merging police force use of computers, frogmen, helicopters and other assets, and revealed he was against implementing the EU agency workers directive.
ReplyDelete"In terms of the rights of agency workers, I think we have to look at this very carefully. Sometimes you find if you pile on extra rights and obligations, you just end up with fewer people in jobs," he said. "I think we have got to ask ourselves a pretty simple question: if we want more jobs, are we making it easier or more difficult to employ someone?"
----------
Cameron speaks
And then there are those who are desperate to escape.
ReplyDeleteFunny old world.
I've got one leg in each camp.
"In terms of the rights of agency workers, I think we have to look at this very carefully. Sometimes you find if you pile on extra rights and obligations, you just end up with fewer people in jobs," he said. "I think we have got to ask ourselves a pretty simple question: if we want more jobs, are we making it easier or more difficult to employ someone?"
ReplyDeleteFuck him upside down, backwards and sideways.
Leni
ReplyDeleteHe isn't even trying to hide it any more is he?
Think I posted this one recently, but it fits in with the theme and bastard Cameron: You'll be dead before your time is due.
ReplyDeleteHaving read Waddya today and seeing Jesses answer to the Dukes request I think we all know what any requests for a piece on it will be.
ReplyDeleteWell the statement can be taken in many ways, it's a bit vague.
What are they waiting for him to say before they get angry?
Fuck that.
Cameron's vision for the not-wealthy".
ReplyDeletePissed off now. Going to bed.
ReplyDeleteSweet dreams, everyone.
So do you like Thomas Hardy novels as well Thauma. I am reading Jude the Obscure right now. Good book.
ReplyDeleteI really like the themes in Hardy, that of peoples helplessness caught up in the wider circles of things, he called a category of his novels, 'novels of character and environment' which sound very similar to the marxist 'environment determines consciousness'.
Thomas Hardy is great.
Jenni
ReplyDeleteHe might as well come clean and simply say
"All rights will be withdrawn and wages minimal. Shop doorway dwellers and those in cardboard boxes please take you litter with you"
Now he says visa appeals must be paid for by applicants - how long before he charges the sick to challenge ATOS decisions?
Hope this lands - keep getting error message.
Furthermore Hardy depicted the hypocrisy of morality, most character are 'immoral' only through accident and chance, circumstances beyond their control, yet fellow humans will judge and scorn them based simply on these uncontrollable factors in a person's life.
ReplyDeleteVery prescient for today, for the political class and the braying mobs.
Hell I just accidentally turned over for the end of 'My Fake Baby' somebody tell me it is a pisstake.
ReplyDeleteJenni
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen it but at least a fake baby is cheap to keep.
Leni
ReplyDeleteI will be having nightmares about those lifelike dolls for a long time to come and the price of them made my jaw drop.
Jenni
ReplyDeleteI know the ones you mean. They are used to help deter teenagers from becoming pregnant. Trying to make them aware of how demanding babies are.
They are creepy .
Nap -", that of peoples helplessness caught up in the wider circles of things" -- Good luck mate, learning how not to be ground down .
ReplyDeleteJen & leni - really a very backward country already with gangmasters et al. Polly's book showed a few years ago how shitty agency wk was and getting worse.
Some good bad news is that more and more journalists all around are displaying unease about the whole financial system, like its teetering . Peston at BBC, link yesterday, Gillian Tett today FT . Not very recent, holidays etc, but Conway an ambrose evans-pritchard at DT . Nils Pratley business section today -- " of course Lloyds is making fucking profits, they're getting virtually free money to play with " .
Down the pub for bread and kisses . An unemployed young lady helped me when i was a bit weaker, splitting wood & picking apples for cider, and I finally 'paid' her by sawing a trailer of wood today.
Local solidarity !
XX
chekhov said...
ReplyDeleteI'm perfectly calm and you're missing my point, Chekhov. You cite one argument in which your now wife threw crockery in what I assume was an attempt to provide anecdotal evidence that DV is as much female-on-male as common as male-on-female.
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"!
05 August, 2010 03:13
chekhov said...
@Montana: "But I'd suggest to you that, if you don't have a point, you might want to resist throwing random anecdotes into contentious dicussions and it runs the risk of making things worse."
Well, I did have a point to make. It just wasn't the one you would have preferred I was making;).
05 August, 2010 18:00
So, which comment is the lie and which one is you being either a coward or a paper tiger?
Ha Chekov busted.
ReplyDeleteNorthern lights video clips on CNN:
ReplyDeletehttp://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/ireports/2010/08/05/natpkg.northern.lights.cnn.html
(apols for not linking properly)
The department of health said it would explore options for private sector investment in the state-owned NHS Professionals, which has 50,000 workers on its books and places staff for two million shifts a year at 77 health trusts.
ReplyDeleteUnions were furious over the sell-off. Karen Jennings, UNISON Head of Health, said that "the whole reason that NHS Professionals was set up was because private agencies were ripping off hospitals by charging them outrageous fees for recruiting or finding staff for shifts.
"It makes no sense at all to bring back private companies who will want their slice of the action in return ... This is purely about promoting privatisation ...regardless of the consequences on patient care. A sell-off may bring a short-term cash injection, but cost NHS Trusts vast sums in the longer term."
However the department said the plan "is in line with the government's policy to maximize the value of assets and commercial opportunities," the department said in an e-mailed statement today. The department will hold meetings with the private sector on "options and opportunities," the statement said.
-----
Think I will stop reading anything these bastards are suggesting - it's bad for blood pressure.
Think I will stop reading anything these bastards are suggesting - it's bad for blood pressure.
ReplyDeleteFair point. Sometimes you need a breathing space, respite from the relentless barrage of crap that's flying from the ConDem govt. And from those rabid right wingers currently inhabiting CiF, BW.
@Montana:
ReplyDelete"So, which comment is the lie and which one is you being either a coward or a paper tiger?"
You will have to explain what you mean because I don't understand.
You disingenuously implied something that was not stated in my comment. It's as simple as that and furthermore you make habit of it.
05 August, 2010 22:21
Leni - look away.
ReplyDeleteMore crap - where's sheff?
Night all - going to look for some lights out there in the sky.
ReplyDeleteOh come on Chekov.
ReplyDeleteLast night you were not trying to make a point and yet today you were trying to make a point (even if it was one Montana didn't want you to make or something).
Either you did or you didn't.
Was your anecdote meant to make a point or not?
@jeniffera30:
ReplyDelete"Ha Chekov busted"
In what way? Do you actually know what you are talking about?
Not nearly enough argument going on tonight. So I thought I'd help out with this:
ReplyDeletecheese
Just back from pub. We won our pool match, so i'm large smiles.
Thanks Deano and LaRit for the welcome !
Enjoy MsChin
ReplyDeleteThanks for the words.
And sorry from me for getting involved, I have decided that I am on holiday from arguments.
ReplyDeleteYes Chekov I know what I am talking about, I read it all and if you want to be dismissive of me then do it from some moral high ground.
ReplyDeleteDon't bother to answer me I can't be bothered with revisionists (especially when they words are still available to everyone).
@Annetan:
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment at 20:24. What you quoted was actually from the article that I linked to at 11:21.
I've never claimed that men are never victims of DV and I've never denied that there are rad-fems who do. Quite the contrary. But, as the Flood article points out, notions of gender-equivalent DV all hinge on the Conflict Tactics Scale developped by Straus, Gelles, Steinmetz et al. and the CTS doesn't weight acts of violence for severity.
Ergo, a slap on the bicep that results in nothing more than a stinging sensation is not differentiated from a punch in the face that breaks teeth, causes severe bruising and results in a trip to the ER.
I don't mean to claim that the plural of anecdote is data, but here is an example from my days as a DV/SA advocate:
A couple were fighting loud enough that the people in the house next door could hear it. The man was punching and throwing his wife around for a good 20 minutes before the neighbours decided to call the police. The police arrived about 10 minutes after they received the call.
As the police arrived, the woman (who was about half the size of her husband and had been subjected to his pummeling for a good 30 minutes by now) came out the front door of the house, trying to get away from her husband. He follwed her, grabbed her and punched her another 2 or 3 times. The police stayed in their squad car, observing all of this.
While the husband was still holding onto his wife and punching her (the police in their squad car, looking on), she was able to get ahold of a baseball bat that their children had left on the porch. She swung it and hit him on the back with it, clearly trying to defend herself.
At this point, the police got out of their squad car, arrested both of them and charged both of them with felony domestic assault. Both were seen for injuries at the local hospital. The incident was recorded as mutual, they were charged with the same level of assault.
The account was verified by, not only the neighbours who had called the police, but also by other neighbours across the street who looked out their window when they noticed the police car stop outside their house (flashers on, no siren).
jennifera
ReplyDeleteMight be an idea to keep out of what is a conversation between chekhov and montana.For whilst you have a right to an opinion the comment you made 22.27pm was provocative and likely to inflame the situation.And being a hothead like me i don,t think you,d appreciate someone making a comment like that if you were in Chekhov,s shoes right now.
Just saying :-)
Jen/Chin
ReplyDeleteBBC report (7hrs ago) says:
"Professor Mike Kosch from Lancaster University said it was "possible but unlikely" that the Northern Lights would be visible from England on Thursday night"
...disappointing news 'cos Lancaster and York Uni's have a special interest in the Aurora so tend to be well informed.
Still potentialy good news in the longer term since it might be indicative of a vigorous season in prospect.That would definitely see me Scotland bound in the autumn
Bugger but still I have clear sky to the North tonight for a few hours so I'll have to cross me fingers and hope.
My walk was a delight I had quite forgotten how much I enjoy walking the bye-ways in the dark Tonight was great the Evening star was stunning and the emergence of the stars from the darkening sky to the South and East is always a pleasure. Lot of bats about tonight too.
I've missed the late night walks. When my dear old Miss Diesel slowed right down and became sometimes confused we stopped doing them. It was in case she wondered off in the dark and I might not have found her (Her eyesight and hearing were past their best)
She had a flashing collar and reflective jacket but she could dislodge them if she took off after a rabbit scent through the hedgerows. So sadly we stopped our regular late night walks about a year ago.
In the dark tonight I could still easily imagine her walking behind with Mungo so tonight was both nice and sad.
Last night you were not trying to make a point and yet today you were trying to make a point (even if it was one Montana didn't want you to make or something).
ReplyDeleteWho told you that? I certainly never said I wasn't trying to make a point.
My point was that when the coppers turn up at a "domestic" they automtically assume that the male is the guilty party.
It had nothing do with equating the level of DV by gender which what Montana implied by her response.
You are right the words all there and I'm glad they are.
Go back and have look.
"Busted" ..my arse!
You will have to explain what you mean because I don't understand.
ReplyDeleteYou disingenuously implied something that was not stated in my comment. It's as simple as that and furthermore you make habit of it.
I didn't disingenuously imply anything. You threw an anecdote into the middle of a heated discussion about DV about your partner throwing crockery at you once. I assumed (which is a completely different thing from "disingenuously imply[ing]") that you intended the anecdote to be an example of female-on-male DV, since that was the subject being discussed.
When I told you that that had been my assumption, you claimed that you weren't trying to make a point. Now you are claiming that you did have a point. Clearly, both cannot be true.
Who told you that? I certainly never said I wasn't trying to make a point.
ReplyDeleteThen, what the fuck does this mean in Chekhovland:
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"!
?????????????
When I told you that that had been my assumption, you claimed that you weren't trying to make a point. Now you are claiming that you did have a point. Clearly, both cannot be true.
ReplyDeleteI didn't claim that I was trying to make a point.
You claimed that I was trying to make point.
Stop putting words into my mouth.
That was last night.
Today I did try and make the point that lobbing anecdotal evidence into a discussion ain't necessarily a bad thing.
Two differents arguments, so stop trying to conflate the two and twist my words by "moving the goalposts".
Anybody with an interest in the Aurora should bookmark this site
ReplyDeleteIt's the Poker Flat Centre. They are the world's leading research institute on the lights
In the Autumn when the nights get a bit darker you can get accurate daily forecasts about the chances of seeing the lights anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere.
I'm no expert but my understanding is .....The intensity of the light is cyclical. The last few years have been very quite but there is an expectation that any time soon (from now to the next 2/3 years we could be getting a peak fifty year(ish) bonanza season.
Bonanza for sightings but potentially troublesome for worldwide telecommunication systems.
The Centre/Site has some great pictures too!
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"!
ReplyDelete?????????????
Errr......that was the point.
Geddit? That anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything!
I usually give people the benefit of the doubt and try to understand what they are saying rather than pick holes in their syntax and grammar and deliberately try to mis-interpret what they are saying.
So feel free to play fast and loose with my comments if you must.
life's too short and that's my final word on the matter.
let's move on.
He Deano
ReplyDeletecan't remember which year (late 80s sometime) I actually saw the Lights in Sussex . They were a wonderful green colour and seemed to dance, they advanced and retreated across the sky changing their form and pattern.
they were like huge, silent orchestra under the command of a skilled conductor. Something I will always remember.
Futher to the above little "tiff" and I hope it remains as such, how important is it that we should be aware of how we use language on this medium and pay attention to the nuances of grammar and punctuation and syntax and of course spelling ("typos" not included!) lest our posts can be deconstructed for a failure to comply with all of the above?
ReplyDeleteBTW: I'm no expert but I strive to do the best I can.
Paul
ReplyDeleteI saw your apologia above and to be frank, my opinion hasn't changed since reading your subsequent posts today.
You display the classic traits of an abusive man and personally and I still think your kind of hatred toward women is best served by a site like Fathers4justice - the site for women-hater's who don't think they hate women.
I have seen you now, on several occasions, repeatedly resort to abusive terminology designed to inflame and hurt. You tried to deflect it onto Hank, onto MonkeyFish, onto Scherfig, trouble is, it took me a little while to see it for what it was and that's why I intervened.
BTW - I don't fall for the classic abuser tactic - good-cop-bad-cop routine and Paul, sorry to tell you, but you are practically a textbook case and you don't even realise it.
You have an enormous amount of anger directed against women and men who you see as traitors to your sex and the warped social construct we all live under - but you didn't even have the excuse of being drunk, however, when things got too close for comfort, you turned around and accused Annetan of being drunk!!!
Classic - tell the woman who's challenging you indirectly that she's the one who is drunk and that you're the one in control.
I recognise Misogyny when I see it and if you think I'm some kind of 'rad fem' (the ref to Andrea Dworkin was what clinched it for me - an Academic who spent years cataloging pornography and violence against women, who was married to a man for many years and who late in life was raped, presumably by some nutjob to 'teach her a lesson') Then sobeit. I couldn't actually give a rats arse what label you attribute to me - you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
And this just proves my point further...
"the NSPCC has been trying to raise awareness of emotional and psychological abuse of children....And the majority of the prpertrators of this type of abuse,along with other forms of non sexual DV are women"
Classic - let's not provide links or proof, but in a discussion examining the worldwide epidemic of male-on-female-child violence/abuse/torture/murder hey, let's just forget that that's the actual status quo and infer that the 'majority of women abuse children' - how quaint!
......and then hey presto! You're done.
For no other reason than I like it...
ReplyDeleteThe Rain Song
Nite.
PS
ReplyDeleteI used to think Camila Batmanghelidjh was an OK person until I realised that she was on every damn programme about the fate of deprived children and now, well, an 'advisor' to Condom-head man? Well fuck her, she sold herself to the Devil.
Sorry Montana, I did no such thing. I merely presented an anecdote. I wasn't trying to make a point that my anectodal story proves anything. It doesn't and I thought I made it plain in my introduction when I said "I'm not sure if this will contribute to the debate"!
ReplyDelete05 August, 2010 03:13
@Montana: I just told a story which is true. Believe it or not there was no underlying politcal edge.
Read into it what you like!
05 August, 2010 03:50
@Montana: since when did throwing in random anecdotes deter discussion?
Our whole life revolves around the stories we tell each other. Why should it be any different on the UT website?
05 August, 2010 04:12
Well, I did have a point to make. It just wasn't the one you would have preferred I was making;).
05 August, 2010 18:00
Who told you that? I certainly never said I wasn't trying to make a point.
My point was that when the coppers turn up at a "domestic" they automtically assume that the male is the guilty party.
It had nothing do with equating the level of DV by gender which what Montana implied by her response.
You are right the words all there and I'm glad they are.
Go back and have look.
"Busted" ..my arse!
05 August, 2010 23:17
Errr......that was the point.
Geddit? That anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything!
I usually give people the benefit of the doubt and try to understand what they are saying rather than pick holes in their syntax and grammar and deliberately try to mis-interpret what they are saying.
So feel free to play fast and loose with my comments if you must.
life's too short and that's my final word on the matter.
let's move on.
05 August, 2010 23:50
You weren't making a point.
You were making a point.
You weren't making the point I wanted.
You were making the point that coppers assume the man is the guilty party.
You were making the point that anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.
But I'm the one shifting goalposts, deliberately misinterpreting someone and playing fast and loose with other people's comments.
Jesus wept.
NB
ReplyDelete"I have seen you now, on several occasions, repeatedly resort to abusive terminology designed to inflame and hurt. You tried to deflect it onto Hank, onto MonkeyFish, onto Scherfig, trouble is, it took me a little while to see it for what it was and that's why I intervened"
And when they weren't around, you went after most women on this board last night. Me, Anne, Montana... - in fact anyone who took your fancy.
Hi Leni
ReplyDeleteLucky lady!
Lifetime ambition of mine to see them. I'm determined to do so before I die they are up there as number one thing yet to do.
I think it was 2007 when after an exceptional solar flair they were seen only 4 miles from where I write but despite me being out looking I missed them!!. But it is very rare to see them South of the Northern Scotland in the UK.
Previous time they were seen in East Yorks was the 1930's!
Still it's a beutiful starlit night tonight so time gazing at the heavens is not wasted.
I did too La Rit. I can't bear yet to look to closely what she's up to as an "advisor"... she's always talked perfect sense when I've seen/read her in the past....
ReplyDeleteFinally another tune - mate just sent it to me.
Not a bad Bruce cover
Dano
ReplyDeletehope you catch at least a glimpse.
solar flares - astonishing things. The more we see of the universe and the closer I look at a tiny flower the less I understand the cruelty of the world. We could spend our whole lives in awe and wonderment - no time for hate.xx
It had nothing do with equating the level of DV by gender which what Montana implied by her response.
ReplyDeleteAnd again: do you understand the difference between imply and assume?
I didn't imply anything -- I stated flat-out that I had assumed your anecdote was meant to illustrate an example of female-on-male DV. You said that it wasn't and last night I took you at your word and responded thus:
If you say so. But I'd suggest to you that, if you don't have a point, you might want to resist throwing random anecdotes into contentious discussions. Because it doesn't really do anything to illuminate the discussion and it runs the risk making things worse.
I'm not saying that in anger or bossiness or anything else -- it's just a polite suggestion. You are, of course, free to ignore it. I've been known to ignore my own advice far too often.
05 August, 2010 03:59<
Last night, you left two comments in reply to me and in neither did you attempt to contradict my rather clear belief that you had just told me that you didn't have any point.
You said:
@Montana: since when did throwing in random anecdotes deter discussion?
Our whole life revolves around the stories we tell each other. Why should it be any different on the UT website?
05 August, 2010 04:12
and:
Tell me where I said that there was a "template" for a relationship?
Dunno, I never said that!
05 August, 2010 04:35
My comment above really was intended politely. I tried to make that clear and made a self-effacing joke to try to dispel any notion that it was meant any other way.
It's your site Montana....where are the goal posts....in which direction should we be kicking?
ReplyDeleteLeni
ReplyDeleteI'll catch them one day.
Last time they were herein Yorks and I missed them I shot off to John Groat's the next day. Spent four late autumn nights there .
On two nights they were definitely above me but totally obscured by clouds and the next two night the skies were crystal clear but they didn't fucking show!
You can take flights from the UK when the predictions are high. But as a last resort I'll go to Northern Canada or take the winter Norway Hurtigruten mail boats up the Norwegian Coast to the arctic circle
Now Miss Diesel is no longer with me I have thought of getting some snow tyres and taking Mungo on a wild winter camping trip to Norway.
It's now possible to drive all the way through the Eurotunnel up across Denmark and across the Baltic through a tunnel to Sweden...
Deano:
ReplyDeleteIf not already sorted.
There's a parking space and nearby park for Mungo if you need it on Sunday.
Let me know ;)
Thanks BW. I was brought up on 'houses of the holy', my oldest brother bought it. Love listening to the live digi enhnc'd version now - done by Page. Nearly all really good tunes on that LP.
ReplyDeleteDeano
ReplyDeleteSounds like a wonderful trip. Snow driving is fun. The highest road in S Wales ia about 5 miles from here - they close it in the snow but we drive it- they put a 'snow gate ' across. Just a heap of snow, navigable with the right tyres.
The road twists around the mountain to a huge drop off at the topNo houses, no street lights. On a cold clear night you can see Heaven beyond the bright stars.
Stunning dark moonless night clear as a bell ....
ReplyDeleteJust seen a shooting star so I made a wish
BW:
ReplyDeleteHello ;)
Yes, the more she was wheeled out on R4 at every opportunity, the more I grew suspicious.
Severely deprived children become a 'commodity' to be traded, bought and sold? .... and Condom man's advisor? Deeply disturbing if truth be told.
Thanks for the lovely link, I loved that very much. You are a kind hoo-man bean Bitterweed.
Leni, Tascia, Deano, Bitterwee and anyone else who's awake - got to off to me beb ;)
ReplyDeleteSweet dreams one and all x
Sorry, not supposed to be 'Bitterweeeee'.... ;( !! :0)
ReplyDelete@Montana: I'm not attempting to score points off you. On the contrary I'm delighted that you welcomed me on board the UT website and also introduced me to many fascinating people.
ReplyDeleteIn spite of your animosity I think we share much more to unite us than divide us!
Deano - you're absolutely right, it's a long journey but can be broken into stages, and you see a lot of beautiful vista's i've been told, as well as a lot of frozen landscape. Never had the opportunity to do that route yet. Driving can be become a bit mundane on the ice roads in Sweden, but the guys I know do it in cruise.
ReplyDeleteThat's kind LaRit - ain't finalised a plan yet but at the minute BW's suggestion of Brent Cross is looking good.
ReplyDeleteLeni - any more news about a possible spinal op for you? I seem to recall I read some throw away line from you on the subject. I'd like to think perhaps I misread.
I really hope that you are not in any kind of permanent pain from which it is hard to find relief
Gnight LaRit
ReplyDeleteDeano - cloud cover in the Midlands
ReplyDeleteLaRit
ReplyDeleteFact1-you chose to leave get involved in a spat between me,Hank,monkeyfish and Habib.You left a post which included a derogatory comment about me and i responded to that
fact 2-you then responded to me and proceeded to twist and turn and distort the facts at every opportunity.And in the middle of that you then changed the subject and started attacking me about my views on DV accusing me of being a misogynist which i found offensive.
fact 3-we then had a full on spat with both sides making abusive comments and both sides making claims without providing links.
The fact of the matter is LaRit i see you for what you really are.Which is an incredibly self righteous women who will do anything to exonnerate herself from any responsibility for her role in a spat in which we were both equally to blame.
I don,t despise women.I do however despise those rad fems of both sexes who IMO are like a cancer on the feminist movement.And who are causing untold havoc in policy making in certain areas including in the area of DV.
I,m not even going to bother to respond to your pathetic and offensive comments about Camila B at Kids Company and the NSPCC research .And your comment about me not providing links last night is comical given that you didn,t either.
The nonsense you spouted off about me deflecting shit onto Hank,Monkeyfish and scherfig is not only a joke but confirms the fact you have a complete blind spot as far as those guys are concerned.But i,m sure they will all be touched by your concern for them.
Again i find your comment about me picking on the UT women really offensive.I only have problems with 2 UT women as far as i,m aware and you are one of them.Also you strike me as a someone who is quite happy to dish it out but quick to play the victim when she gets a taste of your own medicine.I really can,t believe you are so stupid that you are directing all this anger of yours at me even though the evidence on the threads shows your abusive language and name-calling towards me last night wasn,t all that different from that which i directed to you.
I admit i have a lot of anger in me.But as i said before it,s not the anger you think it is.I do however think you have a lot of anger towards men in you and i think you,re trying to deflect something onto me that actually has nothing to do with me.After all we don,t know each other and we,re never going to meet.Or maybe you,re the type of woman who thinks it,s a womans perogative to shoot her mouth off and that any man you responds in kind must be a right woman hating bastard.I dunno!
Anyway i,m not wasting anymore time on this and i,m quite happy for us to ignore each other from now on.But if you chose to continue to shoot your mouth off please don,t complain if i tell you to FUCK OFF.
tascia/Leni - talking of Sweden reminds that one of the Swedish Uni's has an observatory on the top of mountain (above the cloud level) which has been converted into a kind of exclusive hotel with a near guarantee of seeing the lights if they are showing at all.
ReplyDeleteI understand it's expensive but popular with rich Japanese couples. In Japan a child conceived under the cloak of the Aurora is considered to be likely to be exceptional almost god like even...
@Chekhov:
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, I wasn't angry with you at all last night. I realise that some of my comments probably read that way, in light of how heated my 'discussion' with Paul was, but since there has never been any animosity between you and me before, I guess I assumed that you wouldn't read any hostility into what I said to you last night. And I thought we'd left things on a civil note last night -- so this has felt rather like an unprovoked assault today -- one that was especially hurtful precisely because I've always liked you and couldn't understand why you would want to have a go at me.
Whatever offence I may have caused you, if you felt that I was somehow deliberately trying to distort anything that you said, I apologise unreservedly and promise you that that was not the case.
Oh my god - a shagging post including celestial view points.
ReplyDeleteThank goodness u 2.
ReplyDeleteNow have a listen to this:
Led's Rain song
Hi Deano
ReplyDeleteSpinal op - I.m getting quite used to them. I've had 3 so far. Maybe another one. Pain is a bugger I agree.
There seem to be several of us in the wars here. We'll just have to hope the NHS survives - we'll have to fight to make sure it does - not just for ourselves of course.
you were going to post a pic og Mungo the wonder dog.
I'll get round to posting one of Dogge and some from the Bwlch in the snow.
Yep these Vikings have some wonderful ideas....Oh for a lottery win!
ReplyDeleteGdnight All. Above tune - BW's fault for getting me into LED tonight !
ReplyDelete@Montana: "jesus wept" is probably a good analysis of a comment from some one who doesn't know fuck all...ie Me!
ReplyDeleteOk let's turn the tables; what do you know that you would like to share with me?
Leni - yes I was and I have a favourite of Miss Diesel that I hoped to post too.
ReplyDeleteI've casually asked Montana if we had had a change in the password log on keys for UT photos 'cos I cant get it to work. She may have overlooked the enquiry but I guess when she sees it and gets time she'll let me know.
No offence taken Montana, just a bit of logic to make sense! and assimilate!
ReplyDeleteWell, for one thing, Tascia's link didn't work. Led Zep's Rain Song.
ReplyDeleteFor another, I can be a short-tempered bitch at the best of times, so when things are going the way they have been lately, I probably ought to just keep shtum.
That's about it, really, Chekhov.
Oh -- and one's shoes should always be darker than one's hosiery.
Oh crap!
ReplyDeleteSorry, Deano -- I didn't mean to ignore that. No, the password hasn't changed. I just logged into it with no problem. I'll e-mail you the details -- maybe you typed it in wrong???
Thanks Montana - I'll it try again tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteSadly no Aurora over Yorkshire tonight so I'm going to call it a night.
Good night all
And thanks very much Montana for your apology. It was very gratious and well put and did much credit to you as an honourable person who deserves to be listened to.
ReplyDeleteWe might have our differences but you were prepared to "stick your oar in" and for that you deserve respect!
Thanks, Chekhov. I appreciate that.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Montana; I'm thinking we are not "poles apart" would I be right in that assumption?
ReplyDeleteBitterweed
ReplyDeleteCamila B of Kids Company may be an advisor to Cameron but her role is apolitical.Too early to tell whether she has been absorbed into the system or whether she can use her influence for the benefit of those kids she,s helping who have fallen through the system.Seems a bit premature to me for people to describe her as selling out to the devil.Especially as there isn,t a shred of evidence to back up that claim.Also she,s thus far made it clear that her media exposure is not only about raising awareness but also about touting for the funding she needs to keep Kids Company going.
I may be proved wrong in the future but i think anyone with a modicum of fairness should hold fire until we see what impact if any she has on the government.
@Chekhov:
ReplyDeleteSorry -- I've been away. Yes, I think you'd be right.
Paul:
ReplyDeleteSorry, but if ever I needed more proof, your post above was it.
I don't 'have anger towards men' I have anger towards a warped socio-economic system. It is a system in which women, worldwide, being predominantly in the lowest socio-economic groups and often raising children alone in poverty are victims first of being born female and second, of having the ability to produce children and needing support. The big clue here is that we live in a patriarchal system and that women and children of ALL Socio-ecomonic groups are abused and killed.
I'm afraid, being a woman, I am going to defend them first and foremost. I have 'anger' towards a system which allows men, of all social strata to abuse and murder women on an epidemic scale. So when you try to claim that your NSPCC 'research' backs you up about women being 'the majority child abusers', the evidence doesn't stack up.
I'm sorry, but time and again, it's men.
I've no more time to continue. But I will shape my argument further later on today.