I Am in Need of Music
I am in need of music that would flow
Over my fretful, feeling fingertips,
Over my bitter-tainted, trembling lips,
With melody, deep, clear, and liquid-slow.
Oh, for the healing swaying, old and low,
Of some song sung to rest the tired dead,
A song to fall like water on my head,
And over quivering limbs, dream flushed to glow!
There is a magic made by melody:
A spell of rest, and quiet breath, and cool
Heart, that sinks through fading colors deep
To the subaqueous stillness of the sea,
And floats forever in a moon-green pool,
Held in the arms of rhythm and of sleep.
Elizabeth Bishop
I am in need of music that would flow
Over my fretful, feeling fingertips,
Over my bitter-tainted, trembling lips,
With melody, deep, clear, and liquid-slow.
Oh, for the healing swaying, old and low,
Of some song sung to rest the tired dead,
A song to fall like water on my head,
And over quivering limbs, dream flushed to glow!
There is a magic made by melody:
A spell of rest, and quiet breath, and cool
Heart, that sinks through fading colors deep
To the subaqueous stillness of the sea,
And floats forever in a moon-green pool,
Held in the arms of rhythm and of sleep.
Elizabeth Bishop
Well, the Disqus system has been up on UT2 for 6 days now and I quite like it myself. I know there have been a few login problems, but I'm not sure that they were necessarily an issue with Disqus. So -- unless someone gives me a really good reason not to, I'm going to install the Disqus system on UT tomorrow night, which means that we will begin using it on Monday's thread.
ReplyDeleteYou can log in with Facebook, Twitter, OpenID and Yahoo, but it only takes a minute to sign up to Disqus, which might make commenting go a bit smoother for you.
I know a couple of people were having issues with their username being taken, but once you've signed up to Disqus, you can actually edit your profile to have any name you want appear with your comments. Not meaning to insult anyone's intelligence here, but step-by-step instructions:
1. Once you've signed up for Disqus, your username will appear above the comment box with (edit profile) after it.
2. Clicking (edit profile) will bring up a pop-up window, on the left side of which is a column with; Profile, Avatar, Services, Notifications, Account.
3 On the Profile section, there are boxes for Full Name, Website, Location and Short bio. Although your Disqus username remains whatever it was you signed up for, you can put anything you want in the "Full Name" box and that is what will show up on your comments.
When I install Disqus, I will delete the "How to Post Links" from the top of the sidebar and replace it with a link to the Disqus help page that shows which html commands can be used. Again, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but for those of you even less tech savvy than I -- just remember that whatever command you use at the beginning of what you're formatting has to be closed off at the end with that same command, only with a / inserted between the < and the name of the command. (The Disqus page doesn't make this clear.)
I really think that once everyone has got used to the change, you'll like the wider range of formatting available and the convenience of the image & video thumbnails.
I was out last night so unable to comment.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to the killing of the Israeli family in the West Bank, let's suppose for a moment that it was actually carried out by Palestinian militants as has been suggested.
The murder of the three children should be unequivocally condemned. It is just as awful as the far more frequent murder of innocent Palestinian civilians by the Israelis.
But turning to the parents, while I hate to see any kind of homicide, it must be remembered that these adults were fundamentalist, hardline war criminals who had chosen to participate actively in policies that cause untold death and suffering for the Palestinian people.
If these criminal settlers had not, with the support of their rogue state Israel, decided to act criminally by taking part in the illegal occupation of the West Bank, their children would be alive today, so they bear a terrible responsibility in the deaths of their own children.
The Israelis have begun to call them an "innocent family". The children were indeed innocent - the eldest was eleven - despite the racist poison that would have been instilled into them. The parents, though, were clearly, indisputably guilty as hell.
Vicious random reprisals have already begun and will continue. On past Israeli form, we can expect to see at least ten times the number of Palestinians murdered in revenge, family houses bulldozed, innocent people arrested, tortured and imprisoned, and land stolen.
The only thing that can stop all these atrocities is for Israel to turn away from its despotism, crimes and racism, and negotiate an agreement acceptable to the native people of Palestine from all over the territory of the British Mandate, including the diaspora.
Then and only then will the killing stop.
Was out yesterday and the day before and have only just finished yesterday's thread.
ReplyDeleteI realise this will probably be a waste of time but I really do need to 'get this off my chest because It won't be semtex I'll go go NUCLEAr if I don't.
I do not have the words to express my feelings about the murder of any defenceless human being especially a child.
People do dreadful things when in anger and despair, if we are to end such crimes we need to find a way to heal the wounds that divide people because otherwise the vicious cycle of violence continues. In this case no doubt innocent Palestinian children will pay for this crime withtheir lives.
So the downward spiral of hatred continues…
We who watch this can do nothing directly to stop it. But we can work at removing our own hate.
Perhaps you could start by not telling people you do not know that they should rot in hell for disagreeing with you? You are SO negative you seem to search comments for a single word that, if used out of context, can prove that everyone on here = a group of people you don't know, is not worth considering. If so why do you keep coming back?
I think Larit was pointing out that you criticise us for (e.g) not talking about Libya instead of just bring it up for discussion. Try just for once to stop searching for issues to divide yourself from people and search for common ground. You may be surprised.
A.S. Neil once said there are two sorts of socialism – those who hate the rich and those who love the poor. Hatred breeds hatred war and destruction. Only through love, respect and recognising the humanity in others can we build peace
I've said before I would ignore you but yesterday's hate fest of yours means that I shall no longer engage with you - think what you like, freedom of speech is also freedom to ignore.
my post has disappeared!
ReplyDeleteSpike - you are absolutely right, Sadly I don't see
ReplyDeleteit happening any time soon do ypu?
Its a mindset that is present in both sides of the conflict and comes from our sadly very human ability to dehumanise human beings. Their rimes are vile ours are justified vengeance.
Its a mindset we have seen on here yesterday and one that attempted to address in my disappeared post.
There are people on both sides of the conflict that are able to avoid this lethal dehumanising of the 'other'. Let us hope that one day soon these people will gain the upper hand in society.
Because then and only then can the killing stop.
Grrrrrr! CRIMES not rimes!
ReplyDeleteWhy have I morphed to annetan1042 (instead of annetan42)?
Even odder my name changed to annetan1942, I was booted off the net and then was told some 'unusual activity' had occured on my account had to send Google my mobile number to verify it - its annetan42 again now!!!!
Does that mean my rather long post has been iretrievably lost?
Fuckin' 'ell!
Morning all
ReplyDeleteAnne - unspammed you.
Terrible thing to happen to that Jewish family, but - at the risk of provoking ire - if it is politically motivated and not just a criminal crime, if you get my meaning, it most certainly did not arise in a vacuum.
The cycle of violence has to stop.
Morning all.
ReplyDeleteFrom the the school of No Shit Sherlock we have this from Kraft's takeover of Cadbury's.
Kraft boss refuses to face angry MPs over Cadbury takeover
He and his fellow MPs wanted to ask Rosenfeld about commitments Kraft made during the takeover battle, including the promise to keep open Cadbury's Somerdale manufacturing plant near Bristol. They subsequently announced the plant would close, with the loss of 400 jobs.
Kraft provoked a furious reaction in December when it emerged it had reorganised its business to allow much of the profit to be booked in Switzerland, potentially saving millions in tax.
"They told us their head office would remain in the UK; they told us various things about staffing levels, product development, R&D," Murray said. "Cadbury was a great British institution, and Kraft taking them over was always a risk, but that risk was mitigated by the promises we were given." He suggested this week's hearing would be "very tough".
And it was a surprise they well, lied?
IanG -
ReplyDeleteAnd it was a surprise they well, lied?
Well, quite. Everyone said that takeover would be a catastrophe of weapons-grade proportions - with a list of reasons & supporting evidence long enough to convince any reasonable person - 'I told you so' is just getting depressing now.
I remember when the French government stepped in over the foreign takeover of Danone and the business people on the Today programme sneered and jeered. "Ah, the French, they just don't get the free market, do they?"
ReplyDeleteYes we fucking do. That's why so many of us want no part of it.
smtx - Should you pass this way.
ReplyDeletefurther to my post yesterday - and others today - about tit-for-tat in Israel-Palestine. Violence strengthens the hand of the 'enemy' - giving them the perceived right for punitive action. It is a destructive and self defeating policy.
This from Haaretz ---
The ministerial committee on settlement affairs decided Saturday night to approve the construction of hundreds of housing units in several West Bank settlements, a move responding to the fatal stabbing attack on a family of five in the settlement of Itamar on Friday.
The approval of further settlement building follows several long months wherein no construction was approved. The move involves measured construction of several hundred housing units within settlement blocs.
The prime minister's office notified the White House on Saturday night of Israel's intention to approve new settlement construction. A government official said that this was a strategic decision to build in settlements that will remain in Israel's control in any possible peace agreement with the Palestinians.
------
Anger, hatred and violence do not generate love - or even a reasonable response - from those you hurt. Expect further reprisals.
You know, the desire to see another day can often be lost in it's predicted inevitability.
ReplyDeleteScroll past for a bit, if you don't like it, but I did another Sunday paper review:
From the Honolulu Star Advertiser,
ReplyDelete"Two initial surges of six to seven feet hit Kahului in the first hours of the tsunami. A third, more powerful surge, which included waves estimated at 9 feet, followed just before daybreak and advanced as much as a block inland.
Big Island Mayor Billy Kenoi's office confirmed that "damaging waves" hit Kailua-Kona around 5:30 a.m., roughly two hours after the first surge was expected. The waves caused relatively minor but widespread damage in the area.
On Amala Street, a 40- to 50-pound sea turtle was discovered washed ashore near Kahana Beach Park. Maui firefighters attempted to return it to the ocean."
No further news about the turtle, I'm afraid.
@Leni
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't rule out Israeli intelligence suggesting or even carrying out the killings, to serve as a pretext for a new wave of settlement building.
A state that's willing to use white phosphorus on civilians is capable of anything.
And we should remember that Mossad has a history of manipulating extremist Palestinian organisations - Abu Nidal's for instance.
I'd certainly want details of how any Palestinians accused "scaled the security fence" to get into the settlement, since security is always incredibly tight, given how hated the colonists are.
Alaska seems to have been unaffected by the tsunami, but there are concerns about nuclear fallout.
ReplyDeleteFrom the "Anchorage Daily News",
"No sooner had state emergency officials begun to gear back as the tsunami threat eased from the Japan earthquake than a threat emerged from at least three troubled reactors at the Fukushima power plant complex.
Jeremy Zidek, spokesman for the state's emergency services division, said Saturday evening that there was currently no danger to Alaska from the reactors, which have lost their normal cooling systems and are being flooded with seawater on an emergency basis.
The fear is that a partial or complete meltdown of one or more reactor cores would send radioactive particles into the atmosphere and ocean. Prevailing winds and ocean currents generally move in a northeasterly direction from Japan."
It seems as if, either whatever anyone prayed to about the tsunami, or the Mariana trench worked. The "Santiago Times" in Chile says
ReplyDelete"increased wave action on Chile’s Pacific Ocean coast has thus far proved to be minimal, even on Easter Island, which is much closer to Japan than continental Chile."
This was intersting as their side story:
ReplyDelete"The arrest of Ecuadorian Freddy Quiñones outside La Moneda on Tuesday, sparked strong reactions from witnesses who defended Quiñones and accused the police of racism.
Quiñones, an Ecuadorian of African decent who has lived in Chile for 10 years, was arrested on Tuesday afternoon for biking through a red light on the corner of Alameda and Zenteno, opposite La Moneda. The arrest, which was filmed and uploaded to YouTube, immediately went viral, generating widespread criticism of the police. The video shows Quiñones distressed, handcuffed, and sitting on the sidewalk with a torn shirt.
Quiñones, in an interview with Chilevisión, said that many other people were crossing the street at the same time. "What I do not understand is that out of a group of people they would single me out." Quiñones was eventually taken to the police station and was released shortly after midnight.
Police spokesman Sergio Gajardo said the Ecuadorian went through a red light against the direction of traffic causing another motorist to swerve abruptly."
Moving on, news from New Orleans, from the Picayune Times in such a n'awlins way:
ReplyDelete"Cree McCree was in a dark mood after the recent city shutdown of her 20th annual pre-Mardi Gras costume bazaar in the Faubourg Marigny, a move she described with perhaps a touch of dramatic license as "a dagger in the heart" of the city's cultural economy.
Not only did the crackdown leave her and other vendors with loads of unsold Carnival stock, but Jesse Paige, manager of the Blue Nile bar, where the sale was held, said he was told in court that McCree might have to post a $10,000 bond for future events....
...City officials had initially defended the crackdown, with a spokesman saying that residents of downtown neighborhoods "have asked us to get serious about enforcement" against unlicensed vendors. But the bust provoked a backlash from letter-writers and online commenters, who saw it as heavy-handed and antithetical to New Orleans' traditionally laissez-faire ways."
Unlike the Honolulu turtle, we know that Cree McCree is okay. How good a name is that, by the way? Even better than Cat Ballou.
Sorry, just in reading the Lagos Times, I don't recall this story being much reported in our press (super injunction? [and how stupid are the people who think that stops others from laughing at them?] )
ReplyDelete"Albert Odulele, the leader of a London-based evangelical church has been charged with assaulting former members of his church, one of whom was a child under 16. The Nigerian-born Odulele heads Glory House International, which has a congregation of about 3,000. The alleged victims are former members of the church."
Finally, From the Colombo Times In Sri Lanka
ReplyDelete"Asian Junior Team squash champions"
Who says child obesity is a Western phenomenon?
End.
And the moral of the story is don't build nuclear power stations in earthquake zones. Build them elsewhere and take the electricity to the earthquake zone by cable. It'll be more expensive in the short term, but a hell of a lot less expensive than dealing with a meltdown.
ReplyDeleteSpike/Leni
ReplyDeleteJust received the piece below from a Pal friend. Young people in Palestine are totally fed up, not surprisingly and inspired by Tunisia and Egypt, have called everyone onto the streets on March 15th. They're desperate for a life and the end to the cycle of violence and the brutality, corruption and division of their leaders.
"The Palestinian Youth Movement: Cherries not Strawberries!!
For many outside Palestine this analogy might not make any sense, since strawberries and cherries are both available throughout the year. In Palestine, like in many “developing” countries, we eat in season; strawberries ripe in spring, cherries in summer.
There has been a great deal of discussion on the Palestinian youth movement after the revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt and other Arab countries. Debate heated particularly after the call to go down on the streets on March 15th and call for the end of “the division” between the two main political parties.
Several youth groups have recognized that ending this division is yet but a minimal cause in a wider picture, and have decided to unite on a demand for legitimate representation of Palestinian by calling for an election of the Palestinian National Council (PNC). By creating new election mechanisms, such a body would represent Palestinians around the globe.
The ultimate goal is to find a body that -unlike the existing- allows and adopts a resistance program; a program that recognizes and fights against the three layers of oppression; Palestinians living under illegal occupation in the WBGS, Palestinians living as 4th and 5th class citizens inside the state of Israel, and Palestinians expelled from their lands and living in refugee camps and elsewhere around the world. However, several sides have tried to hijack this movement and momentum; political parties have steered this movement to their goals, especially the major parties who exploited this so as to accuse protestors with treason.
The resigned-care-taker-government of Salam Fayyad is trying legitimize itself after failing to create a unity government by ‘supporting” youth and dialogue, using its mass media machine. And finally, the youth NGOs claim to represent youth for marketing motives (there have even been rumors that the head of one of the NGOs might be future minister of youth!!).
Tens of groups have been meeting and debating, and a lot of ideas and positive points have surfaced, but truth be said, the Palestinian youth movement is not ready to pick its fruit yet. There are several factors for this, such as the lack of communication and networking, the ambiguity of certain goals and mechanisms to reach them, as well as the detachment with the vast majority of the Palestinian people (most groups being in Ramallah). Having said that, the youth movement needs time to develop, and just like summer fruits, spring time is crucial for cherries, buds of the winter turn into flowers in the spring, these finally turning into the fruit in midsummer.
The Palestinians youth movement will benefit from the 15th in three ways, it will be a first test for their capability to mobilize people, second it will be a meeting space for some of the groups that have only met virtually on social media outlets and by reading each other’s articles, and finally, the 15th will be the last chance for political parties -and they will fail- in restoring what was left from people’s faith in them (I personally suspect a clash between the Fatah youth supporting the PA, and some of the left parties calling to end Oslo and the political process).
March 15th is just the beginning, it represents the chance for the Palestinian youth movement to flower, and within the next months it will develop and ripen until it is ready to be picked, in summer. September represents a turning point after the deadline for both Fayyad and Obama is expired. By then, Palestinian youth will be ready to pick the cherries!!"
Ibrahim Shikaki
i.shikaki@gmail.com
This link goes to a blog related to the above which includes a list of their demands. Scroll down for English.
ReplyDeletefalasteenlana
spike/Leni
ReplyDeleteA piece from yesterdays groan review section that might interest you
'We have exiled an exile'
Sheff
ReplyDeleteWe can, at this stage, only wish them luck - and strength and fortitude to pursue the long hard road of peaceful resistance.
They are up against several groups - all with vested interests and their own agendas.
There is growing anger in the Lebanese refugee camps as allowances are reduced - no headway at all towards citinship or civil rights.
those in power seem to think they have time on their side, some Israelis talk of it taking 10 years. Ten years in which another generation of children grow into young people and determine to improve their own lives and those of their as yet unborn children.
Fayyad talks about UDI, Fatah and Hamas vying for power - each imprisoning their opponents.
This summer the UNWRA mandate is up for renewal - time for refugees to demand renegotiation of mandate to grant them protection and the right to representation.
This is a vital time for everyone there - there are Israeli groups which recognise this. Let's hope young people from all the communities come together on this.
It surely cannot go on much longer without some positive change.
Sheff
ReplyDeleteA book I shall read.
This again raises a question I have often asked but never had a reply.
The Palestinians living in post UDI Israel were Israeli citizens once Israel was recognised.
Israeli Palestinian citizens were expelled , or fled, to become refugees.
Those never granted citizenship elsewhere still legally retain Israeli citizenship.
The difficult lives of all these refugees - those in second countries and those living as DPs in WB and Gaza constitute one of the greatest injustices in C20th. and now the 21st.
Israelis fear them, PA ignores them and the world watches in silence.
@spike re the stabbing to death of an Israeli family including 3 children, you write;'I wouldn't rule out Israeli intelligence suggesting or even carrying out the killings to serve as a pretext for a new wave of settlement building'.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has gone unchallenged, it is quite breathtaking,even for a poster like spike.
By the way spike, Palestinian media reported that a faction of Fatah's al Aqsa martyrs brigade claimed responsibility, what kind of human being are you to suggest that Israel set up the stabbing of a family of five for a bit of real estate..have you no shame what so ever?
@sheff you link to an article 'Palestinian Naqba', have you heard of the 'Jewish Naqba'? the one that came after the extermination of six million Jews in Europe, the Jewish naqba saw the killings and expulsions of almost One Million Jews from their indiginous North African and Middle Eastern homelands,lands they had lived in for a 1000 years; watch Jewish Naqba on you tube sometime.(even better read a few history books)
@leni 'expect further reprisals'
Yes expect further reprisals in England and elsewhere, expect innocents to be massacred for the wests wars and occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Maybe when the next bomb goes off in spain, spike cant attempt a socio-political anaylisis of the bombers background,
Thanks for the Jacqueline Rose article, Sheff, I would have missed that, otherwise.
ReplyDeleteIn case anyone is thinking about getting into a CiF I/P thread, you can't really win, if you have a relatively balanced viewpoint - you get shouted at by everyone. With that in mind...
The really sad thing is that smtx has a point, sometimes, but disguises it in such vitriol it gets ignored.
ReplyDeleteThe murder of the family in the West Bank was clearly more than a wicked, criminal act. It was a political one.
Some Palestinians have often excused their inhumanity through their circumstances.
Just as the IRA murderers of the children in Warrington used the excuse that they were defending the rights of their people.
That event started a sea change of public opinion in Northern Ireland. We can only hope this outrage does the same thing for Palestinians. I very much doubt it, since they see the same outrage inflicted upon them daily.
PS. All the time, while reading Leni and Spike's earliest posts I was thinking "Lebensraum".
ReplyDeletehabib
ReplyDeleteThe really sad thing is that smtx has a point, sometimes, but disguises it in such vitriol it gets ignored
True - but as long as he/she does that I shall ignore him/her.
@ habib, Are you maintaning that Palestinian families are stabbed to death on a daily basis by Israeli's?, that Palestinian children have their throats cut and their babies killed?. This has never happened at anytime, ever.
ReplyDeleteBy the way the IRA and Palestinian terror groups have no similarity what so ever.
Habib
ReplyDeletethere are no winners - either on an I/P thread or in I/P itself.
several years ago Kaled did a short article on children in the area. They were asked to write about their dreams.
A P boy wrote he dreamed of walking to school without checkpoints along the way and of walking home in the late afternoon and waving to his his father and uncle working in their fields - to which they were denied access.
A child from S'Derot wrote he dreamed of sending a model aeroplane into Gaza. He imagined the children there running in fear - the plane drpped its cargo - a cargo of sweets - which the children gleefully picked up . Children then waved to each other across the border fence and there was peace.
These children are the losers.
You're right - it is a roundabout and twisted dialogue which resolves nothing.
The article got less than 10 comments.
spike, as leni says the murder of that family was a political act but we do not know by whom. Yes the parents by claiming their right to land that is not theirs have placed themselves at risk but that does not excuse murder.
ReplyDeleteWars used to be fought by armies, increasingly civilians are the ones who suffer both from the policies of their governments and the actions of vengeful individuals.
Unless someone calls a halt and says 'no more' to this mutual criminality the killing will go on it will benefit no-one cause distress, bereavement hatred ...
...and more violence I despair!
I guess some will be queuing up to 'claim responsibility'. I always find that so sad, such a telling witness to the de-humanising effect of hatred.
Shef thanks for the link to that article = a book I must read.
oi, smtx01 - over here.
ReplyDelete@ leni, 'the article got less than ten comments', I can believe that, because the majority of western pontificating armchair anaylsists on the I/P conflict have no dream of peace between Palestinian and Israeli, I really do not understand the need to perpetuate the hate, the constant anti anti anti anything brigade, me leni, I hope for peace between both people's, and peace will come one day, maybe not a 'dancing in the streets' kind of peace but some type of peace, because extremists on both sides ultimately will not win, the ordinary israeli and the ordinary palestinian will one day win the ultimate fight , that is the fight for peace, these voices will drown out the drones of the extremes. the majority of israelis and the majority of palestinians wish for a peaceful 2 state solution, all unhinged western nutjobs wish for is of no overriding concern.I am pro Israeli,pro Palestinian,pro peace and pro 2 states.
ReplyDeleteATT
ReplyDeleteabbreviation for
ancient trolling technique: see trolling 1 (sense 2b)
1) The redirection of an entire sentence, paragraph or article.
2) The desire to annoy someone, rather than make a point.
3) The need to feel noticed (see psychoanalysis)
(quoted from themugginsdic.com)
smtx
ReplyDeletePerhaps you'd like to extend your 'pro peace' sentiments to your conversations with people on the UT. Or are those sentiments merely reserved for situations you can do nothing about.
@parallaxview 'oi smtx - over here' ??
ReplyDeleteheyhabib - leave it will ya - point 3 applies to you - (no truce - live with it)
ReplyDeleteyep smtx01 - want to speak with you - up for it?
ReplyDeleteNo truce parallaxview.
ReplyDelete:-)
ReplyDeleteAnne
ReplyDeleteThe claiming of atrocities by extremist groups is quite common. These false claims are politically motivated designed to keep group in public eye and win adherents from among the violent.
They keep the pot boiling by fanning the flames of hatred.
Israel is claiming a breakdown in security for allowing the murderer access - difficult to understand this. Internal security as well as well guarded peripheries of settlements is the norm.
We may never know who actually did it.
@parralex, yea
ReplyDelete@leni ;'we may never know who actually did it' but we know who didnt do it dont we??(unlike spike)
ReplyDeletesmtx01 - well go on then, tell me, in bullet points who are the enemy.
ReplyDelete"True - but as long as he/she does that I shall ignore him/her."
ReplyDeleteDitto, now. Reading over yesterday's outbursts just made it clear to me that it's impossible to reason with her, it's impossible to have a sensible conversation with her, and my worry is that if she continues to dominate the place, and if people to continue to engage her, she will kill the place dead. Indeed, I imagine that is her aim.It's impossible to have anything that resembles a discussion while she's emoting everywhere, and telling everyone how much they don't measure up to her, how crap they all are, that they should fuck off, that they should 'rot in hell'.
I think it's best to do as Montana suggests. I certainly will be from here on in.
(As an addendum, if she were a drunk in a bar, spouting off as she does, how would you respond? I know I wouldn't try to engage her in reasoned debate....)
ReplyDelete@parrallex, what are you on about? if you wanna talk, talk..
ReplyDelete@meerkat I'm not 'dominating the place' fucks sake...get a grip woman
ReplyDeleteyea meerkat 'ditto' 'ditto'... change the record.
ReplyDeleteoh this UT is a bit like dionne warwick and 'walk on by'. ha
ReplyDeletesmtx01 - I am talking to you. It's a question. I ask - you answer.
ReplyDeleteTell me smtx01, can you list your enemies?
Now, your turn, you reply in response to this.
@parallax ' Can you list your enemies'...I don't know what your talking about or in what context.
ReplyDeletesmtx01 - well, take today as a context and starting point - who, at the moment, is the enemy we should target?
ReplyDelete@annetan
ReplyDeleteYes the parents by claiming their right to land that is not theirs have placed themselves at risk but that does not excuse murder.
Wars used to be fought by armies, increasingly civilians are the ones who suffer
I totally agree with you where the children are concerned, but do the adults have civilian status?
These settlers are virtually always armed. I'm not sure whether armed adult colonists in occupied territory are considered to be civilians or combatants.
@parallax, 'well take today as a context and starting point-who,at the moment , is the enemy we should target'. you need to be a bit more specefic mate, I dont have a clue what your talking about, me, personally, i dont have enemies and i dont want to target anyone, dont know what your referring to are.. you talking about the Middle eAST? Libya? Israel/Palestine conflict/UT... I mean what?
ReplyDeletesmtx01 - ok, that's part of the problem with our conversation - I don't know what is more important or problematic for you out of the choices you give: ME, Libya, Israel, Palestine, UT.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm asking you, out of the problems above, which one do you find the most pressing?
ps - I'll be back in a minute - having a cigarette outside
ReplyDelete@parralax, this is going no where, and I dont get what your trying to do. the above are all different conflicts with differnt histories and differnt contexts, what do you want me to do? a summary of conflicts in North Africa/The Mid East and I/P as well, hell, why not just bring up the Balkans, Ireland and just about everywhere else... i mean, break it down a bit pal...
ReplyDelete@smtx01 - exactly, too much conflict going on, we can't be everywhere all the time. So, you're right, to be effective we need to prioritise and choose. Hence, my question, what do you think is most important problem and where do you think that oppositional energy should be focused?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I wanted to talk about with you.
@parrallax, I think the important thing in all conflicts is to concentrate on the people in the middle-there's no point in trying to reach out to the extremes, to people who simply refuse to listen, who refuse to put things into some kind of context, nothings black and white, and history is only ever simple for simple minds.
ReplyDelete@smtx01 - yes, good point, so how do we support those caught in the middle?
ReplyDeleteI think the UT is an extreme as well, there is no diversity on here, I dont see the problem in people having different views, or in people becoming annoyed,worked up, unreasonable,objectionable and contrary.Thats life init(unless your at a SWP meet or some such thing)
ReplyDeleteOh parralax do some talking yourself, this is a bit one sided.im not some kind of frigen oracle.
ReplyDelete@smtx01 - don't sell yourself short - you could be an oracle. Oracles - as you probably know - were just echo-chambers for questions posed, awaiting answers.
ReplyDeleteAnyway - gone 3am here - good to chat to you smtx01 - see you around another time.
see ya parallax
ReplyDeleteCheers for that conversation, parallaxview. Have a nice night.
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDelete" The Israel MoD can decide who it gives licenses to. The current policy is that gun licenses can be only given to:
a)People inheriting guns (no carry, possession only)
b)Hunters (2 shotguns only)
c)ex-military captains, private guards, taxi/bus drivers, gold dealers, inhabitants of danger zones (1 handgun only.)
d)target shooters (2 guns only)
e)Civil guard volunteers (1 handgun
f)Civil Guard Snipers (rifles)
.22 rifles are banned, except grandfathered ones, hunting with rifles is illegal. Any form of outdoor shooting is illegal. People may only buy 50 rounds per year, except those shot at public ranges.
Note that inhabitants of "danger zones" often get issued full-auto guns "
The last sentence is critical. As settlers come under israeli civil law they can legally be armed - the Palestinians, under military law, cannot.
Afternoon all
ReplyDeleteHave been reading some interesting stats about the Dutch labour force.The Dutch have the shortest working week in Europe-(the UK has the longest) with men averaging 34 hours whilst women average 20 hours.48% of all jobs in Holland are part itme with 75% of working Dutch women in part time jobs.Holland also has one of the highest economic activity rates for both sexes in Europe and has successfully reduced the % of the working aged population on disability benefits without causing the despair that is being caused by ATOS in this country.
According to the OECD the Dutch workforce is the 10th most productive in the world.The cost of living in Holland is similar to the UK but the standard of living and quality of life is higher.And Holland is not blighted by the same levels of poverty and inequality that we have in this country.
The downside for Dutch women is that their heavy concentration in part time employment means relatively fewer are getting the top jobs.But it seems that Dutch women generally don't care.And don't view their greater financial dependance on men as compromising their feminist beliefs.Certainly Holland has a lower level of divorce and lone parenthood than the UK. But there doesn't appear to be any evidence that Dutch men are taking advantage of the finacial power they have over their wives/partners.Or that the power dynamic between Dutch men and women is heavily weighted in favour of men.
Holland clearly isn't utopia and has it's share of social problems.However the Dutch model shows that there is a diferent way of doing things withing a capitalist model.Although saying that i fear the greater emphasis put by the Dutch on consensus is an anathema to the adversorial bolshie Britsh which may prevent a Dutch style economic and social model ever taking root here.
Spike
ReplyDeleteQ: How about with settlers, who are in essence armed occupiers?
There's a difference with attacks on armed settlers. While they are technically civilians, because they have taken up arms, they are also paramilitaries. They are much, much harder to define as combatants or non-combatants.
The above is an opinion by S Ratner of the Texas Law School - others of course question this.
It is a question to which there is no clear answer - there is an argument that if the State arms you then you are a paramilitary.
I have looked at this question several times but have not found a generally agreed definition.
Officially under International Law Israel is not at war with Palestine. The use of this expression is used to justify military action.
Gilad Shalit cannot be defined as a prisoner of war and so does not have protection.
It is a horrible situation with people using convenient definitions to suit the purpose of the day.
Paul
ReplyDeleteBriefly - Big problem in the poorer areas of Britain is that many women are so glad to have p/t work to supplement family income that they don't even consider the 'feminist perspective'. That they are poorly paid for often hard or tedious work is something they grumble about but are unlikely to take to the streets about it.
Bear in mind that they are used to the men in their families doing often really rotten jobs for very poor pay. It is sadly - situation normal.
These settlers are virtually always armed. I'm not sure whether armed adult colonists in occupied territory are considered to be civilians or combatants.
ReplyDeleteThree of the victims were neither armed nor colonists, neither civilians nor combatants, spike. They were fucking children! You really are a repulsive, pig-ignorant fuckwit, spike. Nothing is too low for you to stoop to in order to make your nonsensical 'political' points.
Shame on you - using the brutal death of chidren to spout bullshit about Israeli intelligence possibly being involved. You're just the other side of the fanatical, fundamentalist Zionist coin, and too fucking thick to realise it. And it's nice to see that the drones here don't even seem to find what you said offensive.
Sp[lke I also mentioned civilians and govt policy.
ReplyDeleteIt may be arguable that settlers are having their extreme religious views re: the nature of the state of Israel and the land that should comprise it, exp;oited by the Iraeli govt - note how quickly the Israeli cabinet have approved hundreds of new settlements on the west bank.
I think in the final analysis I consider the settlers to be pawns in a very nasty political game.
badpenny if you bothered to read the whole thread you would know that in conversation with others spike has already agreed as to the innocence of the children. We were discussing the status of the ADULT settlers.
ReplyDeleteChipping in to the middle of a conversation can get you into trouble can't it? ;)
Of course the drones on here had thread the whole thread and so perhaps aren't thick!
ReplyDeleteAs I have said to someone else, offensive name calling does not get you respect and certainly adds nothing to the debate.
God, we really are in for a treat today. smtx AND badpenny.
ReplyDeleteWhoop-di-doop!
Yeah good fun aint it BB!!
ReplyDelete@badpenny spike is all the things you say and more(and more worrying is that ZERO posters took up or queried his post.
ReplyDelete@anna 'If you'd bothered to read the whole thread you would know that in conversation with others spike has already agreed as to the innocence of the children,we are discussing the ADULT settlers'
Well how fucking magnanimous of spike to acknowledge that the 3 children that were brutally stabbed to death were innocent, and how fucking typical of you to suggest 'but were discussing the adult settlers', I'm guessing they're being knifed to death in cold blood is more palatable than slicing up a 3 month old baby?
you lot are sick on here, beyond words, and leni, your no better, playing word games with spike, you knew what he meant, you didnt question it. Unbeliavable
leni - did you know what Spike meant. Personally I think he meant what he said.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to answer that of course;)
ReplyDeletesmtx + badpenny
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious we are talking about the status of adults - not many children are armed are they ?
We have all condemned the murder of this family.
As to 'word games' smtx - much of the argument around I/P is about word games. The ambiguities and lack of clarity about so many of the issues are obvious. There are 2 sides always - one side cries 'war crime' while the other responds with 'legitimate defence'.
Meanwhile people still die.
Anyway - I'm out. It seems to suit an awful lot of people to keep the conflict going and to maintain the rotten status quo.
Anne
ReplyDeleteI have been reading Spike's comments for several years and I have no doubt at all he quite honestly condemns the murder of children - anywhere and at any time .
He like many of us queries the status of adult settlers. Under international they are there ilegally - under Israel Law they are legitimate, fully supported and often armed. That is the position.
Paul
ReplyDeleteBriefly - Big problem in the poorer areas of Britain is that many women are so glad to have p/t work to supplement family income that they don't even consider the 'feminist perspective'. That they are poorly paid for often hard or tedious work is something they grumble about but are unlikely to take to the streets about it.
Bear in mind that they are used to the men in their families doing often really rotten jobs for very poor pay. It is sadly - situation normal.
I'm well aware of all that Leni.The point i was making is that the Dutch have had more success than the UK in getting the work/life balance correct.And have reduced poverty and inequality through their tax and benefit system.And this has been achieved throughout a society where,unlike in the UK,more emphasis is put on consensus.But in a society which like the UK is still capitalist.
Many men and women have jobs as opposed to careers.The point i was making is that many Dutch women, are seemingly happy working part time and being more dependant on men and don't see that in any way compromising their belief that they are equal to men.And that includes Dutch career women who are seemingly happy to work part time and not go for the top jobs.
I did also say that Holland isn't utopia and of course there will be Dutch women who have no choice but to work full time.However tough though there lives may be they've probably still got it easier than a UK woman in the same/similar circumstances.
Paul
ReplyDeleteSorry if I misunderstood - getting very ratty about the amount of senseless violence in the world - as if natural disasters are not enough to feed their blood lust.
In Sussex I was friendly for several years with a Dutch farming family - all three sons were nearly 7 ft tall. Their mother T ruled them with a metaphorical rod of iron. Not one would dare to have ambitions above his station in her house.
Perhaps the overall position in Holland is better than here but I imagine people there differ just as much as we do here.
@leni, you read spikes post yes? he wrote that Israeli intellegence might be behind the killings of the Israeli family.
ReplyDeleteYou said nothing and neither did anyone else
I've read the whole thread, annetan42, including your comments, and I'm still disgusted by spikes's comments and the reactions to it.
ReplyDeleteAnne - People do dreadful things when in anger and despair
beautifulburnout - Terrible thing to happen to that Jewish family, but - at the risk of provoking ire - if it is politically motivated and not just a criminal crime,
heyhabib - The murder of the family in the West Bank was clearly more than a wicked, criminal act. It was a political one.
Leni - The claiming of atrocities by extremist groups is quite common. These false claims are politically motivated designed to keep group in public eye and win adherents from among the violent.
They keep the pot boiling by fanning the flames of hatred.
Israel is claiming a breakdown in security for allowing the murderer access - difficult to understand this. Internal security as well as well guarded peripheries of settlements is the norm.
We may never know who actually did it.
How should I interpret these comments if not as some twisted sort of 'justification' and somehow blaming the victims/Israeli state rather than the perpetrators?
I realize that smtx01's intial comments were probably a crude, provocative attempt to paint Palestinians as animals, and spike's response was a crude attempt to demonize all Israelis, but I thought that the rest of you people might have a bit more common sense.
Apparently not. It's like particularly wishy-washy groupthink here among the intellectually and politically challenged who have a particular blindspot about Palestine, and who think that making nice 'liberal' noises and 'caring' means something in the real world.
So bloody what, smtx? Is there a law that says we have to comment on everything you tell us we must? Is there a law that says spike isn't allowed to say what he thinks on here?
ReplyDeleteFor god's sake, will you change the bloody record? All you seem to do is to moan about people not talking about what you want to talk about, moan about what they say when they do talk, rant and insult people left right and bloody centre.
No wonder people ignore you. Seriously. You are like the drunken tramp ranting outside tescos.
And you're just as bad, badpenny. (Except you have the benefit of being a tad more coherent in your interjections.)
ReplyDeleteYou are more like the kid that sits at the back of the class sniping because nobody fucking likes them.
At the moment it is all bloody conjecture anyway. Nobody knows who murdered the family or why. But I don't think there is a single poster on here - no matter how much they dislike the Israeli regime - that has not expressed their sorrow at what has happened. Not one.
So you can fuck off as well.
And another thing, Shit-for-Brains. You sit on your arse behind your computer like a curtain-twitching snoop, sniping at people about the "real world" when you don't have a sodding scooby what they do outside in the "real world".
ReplyDeleteHow very big and clever of you.
badpenny
ReplyDeleteMy last word on this -
Extremist groups across the world falsly claim responsibility for atrocities.
Nowhere did I suggest that Israel was responsible - it may have been an unknown group, a lone madman or whatever.
Continually coming on here to pick fights by deliberately misunderstanding what people have to say is childish and stupid.
Trying to understand the world is bloody difficult - the motivations of other people are obscure and shouldn't be guessed at - we can look only at deeds and the responses to them.
In simple terms as I see it the whole I/P horroe is a series of vile acts, which are respded to in kind and a long series of lies and stated good intentions which amount to zilch.
People on both 'sides' suffer, many die and in both Israel and Palestine children go hungry because the politicians care more about themselves than the people they are supposed to care about.
Misunderstand that if you will.
Leni
ReplyDeleteNo worries!So much bad stuff going on in the world at the moment with positions continually shifting.It's therefore not always easy to absorb everything that's going on.Least of all on these threads when there are sometimes a number of different conversations going on at the same time:-)
Can't we have Bitey back?
ReplyDelete@bb 'drunken tramp ranting outside tesco's' ha ha
ReplyDelete@ bb 'cant we have bitey back'
ReplyDeleteit's an internet site init, you get all sorts, those you disagree with and those you dont, the fact that this entire site(with a few exceptions) agree's with every other bloody poster like a frigen echi chamber should tell you something).
echo chamber
ReplyDeleteSome of you might not like this but for all her angry outbursts here I have never known smtx join in with the proIsraeli general bashing and dehumanising of the Palestinian people - and we all know there is a lot of that around.
ReplyDeleteNeither have I ever read anything from smtx to suggest she supports the hideous Greater Israel project.
I wish we could just talk about people for once without forever categorising them.
Whilst the half wits on here bicker and whinge (yes thats you smtx and badpenny), the horrific cycle of violence and oppression continues.
ReplyDeleteNot that you two care - all these events are simply tropes for you to hang your personal resentments on because thats what all this is about isn't it - your sad little selves. which is why I won't give either of you the time of day.
Sheff
ReplyDeleteExactly.
That link is horrifying - yet some will try to excuse it or say it a 'Pallywood' lie.
smtx - it isn't always just an echo chamber in here. people do disagree about things. but there is no point in ranting at people just because they won't reply to what you post. Like I said, there's no law, is there?
ReplyDeleteLeni - I have a temper like a volcano. Slow to erupt, but once it goes it goes big time. But, frankly, sometimes things do need to be said, out of temper or not. smtx does rant on and on sometimes like a drunken tramp. And badpenny's only contributions here are to snipe at other posters. It wears me down.
Let them say what they like Leni - doesn't alter the 'facts on the ground' which are a catastrophe for everyone in I/P, one way or another.
ReplyDelete@sheff ' whilst the halfwits on here bicker and whinge-yes thats you smtx and badpenny-the horrific cycle of violance and oppression continues, not that you two care-all these events are simply tropes for you to hang your personal resentments on because thats what its all about isnt it-your sad little selves,which is why i wont give you the time of day'.
ReplyDeletewell your sad little self just did 'give us the time of day' love and you link strait to 'international soladarity' campaign in Palestine, you do know sheff there is a world , a big one outside of the I/P conflict dont ya? i guess it's never bothered you too much, you want to know about violance and oppression? try Sudan, 200,000 dead and countless rapes and tortue, Congo?? 5 million dead,try the Millions of children that die in Africa each and every year from starvation and preventable diseases.by the way were you in involved or active in seeking to highlight the brutal repression and human rights abuses that have been occuring within the Arab and Muslim world for decades,? did you do 'linkeys'?(hate that word)... were you concerned about ancestral dynasties, single power holders or just plain crazy paranoid nutcases Arab leaders maintaining their rule by killing everyone and anyone they disagree with, were you aware of the tortue chambers? the executions, the wars and civil wars that have witnessed the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims? or are you just obbssessed with Palestine to the exclusion of everywhere else, and are just cottoning on to the uprisings in the arab world because they have suddenly become news and hit the headline?some of us have been involved for a while,yet you and people like you just keep on sticking people like me in your little weeny tweeny pigeon box holes dont ya, well just keep on keeping on being you sheff.
smtx
ReplyDeleteCome off it! - emote all over the page why don't you. You stick yourself in your 'pigeon box' with the semi literate garbage you post. Sounds like you have a bad conscience.
@sheff is that the best you can do.. ha ha pathetic as ever
ReplyDeleteBB
ReplyDeletemy temper smoulders - doesn't often break out.
But I am very angry about apologists for violence - anywhere - and by those who hang their hat on any peg which enables to flaunt their 'moral outrage ' - while actually not caring a toss. We get enough of that from handwring politicos.
I think the general concensus here is that however angry we are about lots of things what we can practically do in reality is almost zero.
I try to give support to various groups - sometimes by simply responding to people and sometimes through donations. We have no real agency - that in itself is one of the major causes of my anger.
We have to restrict ourselves, in general, to helping people we can meet and touch.
this does not mean we should not not point out and draw attention to cruelty and oppression - try to build a concensus against it wherever it happens.
@sheff bad conscious over what? semi literate? whats been semi literate about my postings today? what has angered your lilly white self so? Oh and yea i do get semi literate when angry, dont you?
ReplyDelete@Sheff
ReplyDeleteTragically, the reprisals are par for the course for "the most moral army in the world", whose behaviour led Sir Gerald Kaufman, an MP who cannot be suspected of being anti-Israel, to make this speech in the House of Commons.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.
I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.
I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.
My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.
My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.
On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that
“500 of them were militants.”
That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.
The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni’s father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.
Hansard report
This was at the time of Operation Cast Lead, an event that some who claim to be against represssion and slaughter refuse to pronounce on.
Gerald Kaufman wouldn't last long on CiF.
Oh and yea i do get semi literate when angry, dont you?
ReplyDeleteNo.
Leni
These stories exemplify the tragedy everyone is caught up in in I/P
Land, property, resources theft and destruction
Leni
ReplyDeleteYou're largely right.
I disagree that we have no agency though - or rather, that we have no agency at all. Doing one small thing a day to make someone else's life better, even if it is only smiling at a stranger on the bus who looks like they could use a smile - makes a change to the world, however tiny.
My last post has been spammed. Could someone fish it out, please? Cheers!
ReplyDeleteI read your link sheffpixie. I suppose some here might comment on it by saying "Terrible thing to happen to Awarta, but - at the risk of provoking ire - it was politically motivated. This was clearly more than a wicked, criminal act. It was a political one. After all, people do dreadful things when in anger and despair."
ReplyDeleteDo you not see how meaningless such responses to the settler murders are, if you can't apply the same logic to the Israeli attack on the village?
Understanding any atrocity is certainly not condoning it, but the 'understanding' here is wilfully and ignorantly one-sided. The very uneven balance of power in Israel doesn't forgive displaying a duplicitous morality.
Everything is politically motivated in I/P - and duplicitous moralities are not a monopoly of one side or the other. People will sell their story the best way they can - rightly or wrongly.
ReplyDelete'People who are angry do dreadful things' is a statement of fact it does NOT imply that I in ANY way justify those dreadful things.
ReplyDeleteFor once there is something I want to watch on TV and on iplayer.
So I'm going to say goodnight.
BB I agree - I have a very slow fuse and usually have a lot of patience but I'm in danger of loosing it.
I value the opinions of the people on here 'known' you all on line for ages and actually met some of you IRL.
I value your opinions and knowlege. Learned a lot from all of you about life politics and music.
I agree with Montana some people are best ignored 0 totally - even when they play 'good cop' for a bit. This site is too precious to let them destroy it.
They can of course post but we don't have to read it do we?
Nothing in the spambox spike.
ReplyDeleteYes, Anne, there is a good mix of people on here from all ages and backgrounds. The common thread between us is that we care about people.
And Sheff, I despair at ever seeing an end to the cycle of hatred and destruction when it comes to I/P.
Spike
ReplyDeleteReleased you from spam and then got distracted elsewhere by someone's arrival.
Tsk Ms Chin. Letting real life get in the way of blogging. Shouldn't be allowed! :o)
ReplyDeleteThanks BB and MsC!
ReplyDelete@BB
I'll be in England on Friday and I'll give you a call. Perhaps we can head up to town together on the 26th. I don't know if you're going by train or what, but if there's free parking in your neck of the woods, I could drive there at least.
Spike
ReplyDeleteYes! You're more than welcome to park here. I was thinking of getting the ovver arf to drop me at Gatwick and going into Victoria from there.
OK, I'll call you and we'll make arrangements.
ReplyDeleteSpike
ReplyDeleteThat speech of Kaufman's indicates a heartbreaking journey for him. I know quite a few others who've made a similar one - one or two of them Israelis.
Sheffpixie said...
ReplyDelete"Oh and yea i do get semi literate when angry, dont you?"
No.
Made I larf young miss Sheff - class lass.
This made I larf .. from Linda Barker's 'thrifty tips for chic junk' in the Inde:
ReplyDeleteJoin a craft group - I enjoy the involvement of a group like Craft Guerillas who meet in pubs and get their knitting needles out. It’s new, it’s now; it’s the zeitgeist for it all. It’s exciting to use an old skill in the modern way.
Hehehehehe
ReplyDeleteLinda Barker is out there where the buses don't run, isn't she?
Guerilla Knitters. Tee hee... :o)
I have been catching up with today's thread, and then thinking for the last few hours how to put this. I suppose it's easiest just to go at it and see how it goes.
ReplyDelete@Spike
Your first post this morning disturbed me as a reaction to the murder of the settler family in the West Bank. Accepting for the moment that it was the act of 'Palestinian militants', as you do in the post, you then condemn the murder of the three children as 'just as awful as the far more frequent murder of innocent Palestinian civilians'. Perhaps this is fair enough, although I'd be interested to see which definitions of 'murder' and 'homicide' you're using here.
But from then on, the murderers of the family disappear from your post as though they were never there. Instead, the responsibility shifts to the murdered parents. They were 'fundamentalist, hardline war criminals' who were actively participating in policies that cause 'untold death and suffering for the Palestinian people'. They were 'criminal settlers' from a rogue state, and the death of their children is their own 'terrible responsibility'. Still, those children had been instilled with 'racist poison', so their parents were 'guilty as hell'.
I don't know how you know what the parents were like and believed, Spike, and what they instilled in their children. But this reads as though you are happier thinking of people as representatives of political forces rather than people. The parents are not parents, but racist colonists who deserved what they got. The murderers are not murderers, but representatives of the Palestinian people.
This manoeuvre not only removes the murderers from the scene - the men who broke into a house at night and killed a family in their beds in as bloody a way as possible - but dehumanises the victims (the adult ones, at least).
But after some thought, even this distancing of the murderers from the
actual death scene is not enough for you. You would not be surprised, you write, if the killings were suggested or even carried out by Israeli intelligence to serve as a pretext for more settlement building. It seems that leaving Palestinian murderers somewhere in the background, however their actions can be 'understood' as a reaction to having 'racist war criminals' nearby, is not moving them far enough away. And after all, the Israeli state is capable of any atrocity.
But perhaps you found this idea to be skating too close to the sort of argument used by 9/11 'truth' movements. So your later post on this returns to the theme of the parents' responsibility. Most settlers are armed, therefore the parents were probably armed, therefore they were combatants, therefore they were legitimate military targets. That's an interesting chain of logic, although I'm sure you'd resist its application to the population of, say, Gaza. Indeed, wouldn't you use the phrase 'collective punishment' if it were?
Spike, I think that your abhorrence of Israel is leading you into some dark moral areas. And as I said at the start, I find that disturbing.
@PeterJ
ReplyDeleteBit of a misread there on your part.
Of course the killers soon "disappear from my post". We have absolutely no idea who they are. However, we do have some idea of who the members of the colonist family were. Consequently, for the moment, it's possible for us to draw conclusions about the murdered children (total condemnation of their murder, that's easy enough) and their parents, who as willing colonists of militarily occupied land were war criminals under international law (What do you call their killing? Murder? Assassination? Warfare?). But what can we say about the unknown killers, who could be settler neighbours, Palestinian militants, thieves, Mossad, etc.? We have no idea who they are for the moment and may never know for sure.
I'm open to any possibility. As your post goes on, it all seems to get rather cut and dried for you. I wonder why? As to whether the adults "deserved what they got", you seem to have decided that's my conclusion, which is surprising, because I actually said that:
a) I hate to see any homicide (you wonder what definition of homicide I'm using - the usual one, it means the killing of people);
b) I was unsure whether the parents' status would be civilian or combatant as armed colonists in occupied territory.
As for your spurious comparison between settlers and Gazans, I can only suppose that's a momentary lapse and you don't actually need me to remind you that the Gazans are living in their homeland, while the armed Israeli colonists are occupying stolen Palestinian land.
For the record, I don't wish death on anybody if it can be avoided. I think the parents, like all adult Israeli colonists, should have been sent to prison for a suitable length of time. I don't believe in the death penalty.
As you should have realised from its first sentence, my initial post was a reaction to posts made last night, so you may find it useful to look back over those posts and see what I was reacting to. That may make things clearer for you.
Finally, if you think saying that Mossad can be involved in unlawful killings for political ends is the stuff of conspiracy theory, I can only suggest you read up on the organisation's history.
In fact, I think your urge to find excuses for Israel is leading you into some dark moral areas. My conscience is quite at ease with the areas I'm in, thanks.
Spike's Original post --( harder to go back to with Disqus) --
ReplyDelete-------------------------------------------------------
I was out last night so unable to comment.
With regard to the killing of the Israeli family in the West Bank, let's suppose for a moment that it was actually carried out by Palestinian militants as has been suggested.
The murder of the three children should be unequivocally condemned. It is just as awful as the far more frequent murder of innocent Palestinian civilians by the Israelis.
But turning to the parents, while I hate to see any kind of homicide, it must be remembered that these adults were fundamentalist, hardline war criminals who had chosen to participate actively in policies that cause untold death and suffering for the Palestinian people.
If these criminal settlers had not, with the support of their rogue state Israel, decided to act criminally by taking part in the illegal occupation of the West Bank, their children would be alive today, so they bear a terrible responsibility in the deaths of their own children.
The Israelis have begun to call them an "innocent family". The children were indeed innocent - the eldest was eleven - despite the racist poison that would have been instilled into them. The parents, though, were clearly, indisputably guilty as hell.
Vicious random reprisals have already begun and will continue. On past Israeli form, we can expect to see at least ten times the number of Palestinians murdered in revenge, family houses bulldozed, innocent people arrested, tortured and imprisoned, and land stolen.
The only thing that can stop all these atrocities is for Israel to turn away from its despotism, crimes and racism, and negotiate an agreement acceptable to the native people of Palestine from all over the territory of the British Mandate, including the diaspora.
Then and only then will the killing stop.
13 March, 2011 08:23
-------------------------------------------------------------------
That was written at 07.23AM french time. Yes there was far too much hyperbole. As often my mate SpikeParis goes over the top , but his basic underlying thesis is correct.
I would have expressed it very differently.
PeterJ -- " You would not be surprised, you write, if the killings were suggested or even carried out by Israeli intelligence to serve as a pretext for more settlement building." .
You suggest Spike skates away from that one, but in fact nobody knows ANYTHING at the moment . Spike-hyperbole again, nobody thinks MOSSAD did it directly, but the other possibilities between MIHOP and LIHOP could be there in the murky and evil world of the spooks.
The family-massacre came at a mighty convenient moment , all the same ...
@Dave
ReplyDeleteHi, how's it going?
You may think that's OTT, but wouldn't I get a kicking if I made the same comparisons as lifelong friend of Israel Gerald Kaufman?
Let's say I put the case rather forcefully because of the way the whole thing was being presented, as if those involved in colonising Palestine were whiter-than-white innocents. I'm referring to the adults of course, not the poor kids (which shouldn't need saying, but apparently does for some).
As for Mossad, I wouldn't put anything past them if certain people in high Israeli places decided such and such an action was "for the greater good". Perhaps the same people who think using white phosphorus on civilians is acceptable.
Spike's Original post --( harder to go back to with Disqus) --
ReplyDeleteShouldn't be. Old comments made on Blogger can be imported into Disqus. I hadn't done so for UT2, since I hadn't been sure we were going to keep the system, but I just did and the process is fairly quick and painless. Two years worth will probably take a bit longer, but it seems to have been painless on UT2.
Hi Montana.
ReplyDeleteAh, are we on UT2 now? I've been plugging away on UT1.
Montana
ReplyDeletedropped by to say if I'm not around for a few days it is because Disqus is playing around with me - despite registration email.
see you all sometime everybody.
xx
@Leni
ReplyDeleteGoodnight, see you soon.
Have gone through whole rigmarole again - it confirms user name afanc and then says it doesn't recognise me.
ReplyDeleteMay have to change brower settings. Hey -ho.
Nightnight Spike. Sleep well.
ReplyDelete