tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post998963014591229180..comments2023-05-21T15:20:58.352+01:00Comments on The Untrusted: Individualism and Class ActionMontana Wildhackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11409705185204787671noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-87254830833017083812009-05-03T23:47:00.000+01:002009-05-03T23:47:00.000+01:00Hello Annetan42, good article, important points. I...Hello Annetan42, good article, important points. I quickly scrolled down which was rude of me, though I'll read the comments at leisure. <br /><br />Just want to say that for most of my life I have had no home to place my vote as I gained that right during the Thatcher years that followed the disintegration and re-invention of both Labour and the Liberals.<br /><br />So I have had no choice, I felt other than to vote Green. That has changed recently. <br /><br />Now I have no where to place my vote as Labour have applied so much genetic engineering and mutated out of all recognition that it is no wonder they are now on life support but in their quest to rule they have severely distorted democracy in this country.<br /><br />I'll read the rest of the comments and see how far this idea has progressed but as in regard to your premise and for the reasons I have stated above you have my support.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-26577890634874636432009-04-29T17:54:00.000+01:002009-04-29T17:54:00.000+01:00Be careful saying that on the boards, Annetan, Pol...Be careful saying that on the boards, Annetan, Polly is guarded lke the Queen's jewels...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-52302970454406437302009-04-29T07:55:00.000+01:002009-04-29T07:55:00.000+01:00But thats the point Jay she wants to help the poor...But thats the point Jay she wants to help the poor not help them to stop being poor. At base its a Tory attitude.<br /><br />Charity can be a power relationship that keeps the poor in their place.<br /><br />Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day give him a fishing rod and you feed him for life.annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-37671350263342758582009-04-28T18:39:00.000+01:002009-04-28T18:39:00.000+01:00Yeah thats about it really sums it up perfectly.
...Yeah thats about it really sums it up perfectly.<br /><br />One of my father's jobs as a senior tecnical liason officer for the paper making firm he worked for was interviewing potential graduate trainees.<br /><br />he interviewed this chap from one of the major public schools and explaine that in his training he would have to work for a while on the shop floor and would he be comfortable with that.<br /><br />He replied he was used to dealing with 'the lower orders'!<br /><br />He said to me 'That put me in my place didn't it' (he was a miner's son!<br /><br />The guy didn't get the job.<br /><br />To be fair I think people like Polly genuinely want to help 'the poor' but they jaust can't help being patronising!<br /><br />Sad!annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-64375717999418654262009-04-28T14:23:00.000+01:002009-04-28T14:23:00.000+01:00I'll repost this from the other thread as it's rel...I'll repost this from the other thread as it's relevant to discussion of the class system. A small example of how things work in our "classless" society.<br /><br />I'm afraid I've lost the tiny amount of symapathy I had for young Meltzer. Here's a couple of his comments from BTL:<br />"Is this guys' dad famous?....<br />Fraid not. No famous family, no contacts at The Guardian. Just got lucky."<br /><br />"Here is how I got this column: I edited and co-wrote a satirical newspaper at university."<br /><br /><br />This from the Oxford Union website:<br />"Tom Meltzer is a former editor of The Oxymoron and former director of the Oxford Revue. He has written for BBC Radio 4 and Private Eye, and now<br />writes regularly for The Guardian. He is also a successful stand-up comedian."<br /><br />I must read Polly's article about class privilege and the "bold equality push" again. She mentions "deep-dyed cultural prejudice and entrenched social disadvantage". She talks of "a more frank recognition of what a class-stratified nation this is." She is concerned about " equal opportunity for every child".<br /><br />Well, Tom just "got lucky", and he's Polly's colleague now. An Oxford graduate working for the Guardian and getting a front page Cif piece at age 21. Who'd a thunk it? It's all about merit, as so many astute commenters who defended Tom put it. Small-minded people venting envy and spitting bile against a decent young chap.<br /><br />Fuck the working class, they bore me. Let's get a whizzkid to write an article and have a laugh about where the unwashed have to live (wine shops, job centres and the smell of fried chicken). I'm sure the proles will see the funny side.<br /><br />The Guardian editors must be so proud.xxxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12466706566688272356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-25733112921220945592009-04-28T13:32:00.000+01:002009-04-28T13:32:00.000+01:00Yes i also agree with that.
Agree about MAM too a...Yes i also agree with that.<br /><br />Agree about MAM too although wouldn't ban him (don't believe in banning - I believe people like that condemn themselves.annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-35258052477886417122009-04-28T10:42:00.000+01:002009-04-28T10:42:00.000+01:00"More to the point, I also object to the multiplic..."More to the point, I also object to the multiplicity of "identity politics", because some identities become "more equal than others", and therefore deepen the fragmentation in society as a whole."<br /><br />Agreed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-30690346196678114982009-04-28T10:14:00.000+01:002009-04-28T10:14:00.000+01:00Dialectics...Chomsky... discourse...spot the (disa...Dialectics...Chomsky... discourse...spot the (disaffected) CiFers! I have probably got different views from most of you here, (more socially conservative and pro-mainline Christianity and Judaism, possibly), although I have some sympathy with Old Labour and the 50p tax-rate era LibDems (because I detest fat cats, especially those whose fantastic wealth comes from complex financial mechanisms rather than producing goods or services that mean something). <br /><br />More to the point, I also object to the multiplicity of "identity politics", because some identities become "more equal than others", and therefore deepen the fragmentation in society as a whole. <br /><br />And yes, as noted on another thread, MaM is probably a fascist (although this word is so massively overused it means nothing), and anyone who talks straightforwardly of "race replacement" should be banned from CiF forthwith.anonUKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-37142310644758545982009-04-28T09:23:00.000+01:002009-04-28T09:23:00.000+01:00pen,
"As soon as I start to try and explain / ena...pen,<br /><br />"As soon as I start to try and explain / enact you guys get all antsy and start telling me 'who do I think I am' 'you think you know evrything' blah. V tedious."<br /><br />So is that your explanation? "appearing" to get worked up?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-81396165007330753682009-04-28T07:54:00.000+01:002009-04-28T07:54:00.000+01:00Pen you seem to be getting very worked up by all t...Pen you seem to be getting very worked up by all this. This isnt an attack on you at all, i'm just explaining my views on identity in the identity politics sense in the context of the Left and its focus. <br /><br />"As soon as I start to try and explain / enact you guys get all antsy and start telling me 'who do I think I am' 'you think you know evrything' blah. V tedious."<br /><br />I havent said anything of the sort, nor has Annetan to my knowledge. <br /><br />My point is that we could discuss identity itself and the various weird and wonderful theories that surround it but it is a different debate, it isnt really relevant here because Annetan's article was about identity politics versus economic justice, and the politics of identity is a fairly recognisable thing which most people have an agreed understanding on. There is a difference between identity politics and identity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-80958428063027451812009-04-28T03:45:00.000+01:002009-04-28T03:45:00.000+01:00Ah Jay.
It's tricky (lol). As soon as I start to ...Ah Jay.<br /><br />It's tricky (lol). As soon as I start to try and explain / enact you guys get all antsy and start telling me 'who do I think I am' 'you think you know evrything' blah. V tedious.<br /><br />Course you all agree (with PollyT too she likes upper lower class God I'd never use such terms, so disrespectful; upper class my arse atleast have the decency to call them the exploitative greedy bastard class) oh except me (and whose obviousely so far out there in terms of 'social' etc theory / practice?). Duh.<br /><br />When I was in A'dam last summer I was in a clothes shop with my daughter. She was shopping so I was reading. The rather delightful young woman assistant was intrigued and when we, eventually, came to paying chatted to me for about twenty mins. About what I was reading (Bohmian physics) Descartes (he died just around the corner) happening places in europe and quite what was I. <br /><br />Do you know the Third Policeman? The needle with such a fine sharp point? I said I was that point. I think she believed me. Hahaha.<br /><br />Of course I know Chomsky (not actualy met him) both his cog psych and his soc theory show the same flaws.<br /><br />Monolithic single answers that unlock it all. <br /><br />It takes work on a student's part to understand, don't I just know it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-37634438481836408742009-04-27T23:25:00.000+01:002009-04-27T23:25:00.000+01:00Pen, identity isnt the same as gravity or electric...Pen, identity isnt the same as gravity or electricity though, it isnt an observable physical science, it isnt science at all in fact - it is social theory. Gravity and electricity are not dependent on humans, identities are. <br /><br />I dont think the comments are anti intellectual, and actually i think a lot of 'social theory' is in itself anti intellectual because a lot of its pure pretentious gibberish, as proved on a few occasions when people have sent in intentional gibberish and its been lapped up by the theorists. <br /><br />If you'll bear with me, here is quite a lengthy Chomsky extract which i think makes the point superbly. He is talking mainly about geopolitical theory but the same applies very much to social theory (not that a Chomsky quote makes something right, he just expresses the issue very well): in fact i try and post it as new article thing, its quite long, but its one of my favourite extracts and quite pertinent to the debate i think.JayReillynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-80796044326644779222009-04-27T20:39:00.000+01:002009-04-27T20:39:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brusselsexpatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474962143295619078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-39827619076919336502009-04-27T20:26:00.000+01:002009-04-27T20:26:00.000+01:00Jay substitute 'gravity' ' electricity' trying to ...Jay substitute 'gravity' ' electricity' trying to understand in an academic sense? You do like the old internet?<br /><br />Get real, I'm not an acaedmic and care nought for it (slightly untrue i loved it) it's ontology.<br /><br />I'm not getting m,uch 'theory' just 'fine sentiments'<br /><br />You do know the paving scheme on the road to damnation?<br /><br />Very anti-intellectual flavor to the comments.<br /><br />I'm trying to be patient. Wild humans gah.<br /><br />PenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-89288368628440130972009-04-27T17:51:00.000+01:002009-04-27T17:51:00.000+01:00Its not really a case of everyone being right, pen...Its not really a case of everyone being right, pen, i am trying to distinguish between "identity" in the academic sense and identity in the "identity politics" sense, which in common discourse simply means the pursuit of equality for every various subgroup of society, be they one legged clerics or lesbians from the Sudan. <br /><br />In this sense, the political sense, "identity" has a reasonably fixed meaning, and if we can accept that meaning for the sake of this particular debate - identity politics vs economic justice as a defining focus for the left, then i dont think thats really the end of the world, even if there is another whole debate about what "identity" is in the academic sense.JayReillynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-30846528735151900552009-04-27T17:38:00.000+01:002009-04-27T17:38:00.000+01:00Also Jay it does rather depend on which schoo; of ...Also Jay it does rather depend on which schoo; of sociologists you follow Lots of difference of opinion there and most of it is very 'fuzzy'.<br /><br />As identity is of course its not static its in a state of constant change I was a girl became a woman then a mother will possibly be a grandmother and will definitely one day be dead.<br /><br />But I hope that my identity has developed in other ways than that, one of which is having a certain understanding of the world and a belief that people should have more freedom both politically and economically. I want to see an end to starvation and gross over consumption. i see Marxism as a way of working out how to achieve it. But its a long process and we don't know precisely how it will end or even how we will get there.<br /><br />But we have to try I can't ignore the 'prisoners of want' as the internationale has it.<br /><br />I'm rambling - must feed the cat and have rest tired after shopping! :-o\\annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-51544526556101762392009-04-27T15:53:00.000+01:002009-04-27T15:53:00.000+01:00Oh give over guys. You can all talk about 'god' if...Oh give over guys. You can all talk about 'god' if you like so what?<br /><br />Agreeing to differ is just a cop out, lets pretend we are all right? Just waffle. Have you got yoour own special gravity too? <br /><br />Sure most communication is phatic, got fuck all to do with 'truth' 'validity'. Mostly it's about being part of the group, idneity stuff, whatever.<br /><br />And, by the by, I'm not a sociologist duh.<br /><br />The earth still moves so go ahead put me under house arrest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-12760044832377339402009-04-27T15:07:00.000+01:002009-04-27T15:07:00.000+01:00Now now, lets have no bickering.
Regarding the a...Now now, lets have no bickering. <br /><br />Regarding the actual meaning of 'identity', in the sense it is being used here i think everyone (bar possibly Pen) has a fixed, and more importantly shared, notion of the term in the way it is being used here. So correct or not, we are all engaging with the term in the same way (bar maybe pen), isnt that the point of language, to communicate ideas? <br /><br />"Identity" is a complex issue and i dont think anyone can lay good claim to having a unique understanding of it, it is in large part down to opinion. Because a sociology book says identity is a, b and c, it doesnt mean that it necessarily is, anymore than it is the d, e and f which annetan says it is.<br /><br />On Cif and in here the focus is generally on a tangible and communal discourse which everyone can understand and relate to, as oppose to the often abstract nature of academic discourse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-91979406381272796412009-04-27T14:05:00.000+01:002009-04-27T14:05:00.000+01:00pen agreeing to differ means the same as 'so what'...pen agreeing to differ means the same as 'so what' its just a nicer way of saying it.annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-81793347655854735642009-04-27T13:17:00.000+01:002009-04-27T13:17:00.000+01:00See annetan? It becomes a pissing context and I ju...See annetan? It becomes a pissing context and I just don't care.<br /><br />We all have experience in common qua experience.<br /><br />So what.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-11972989755002544412009-04-27T13:06:00.000+01:002009-04-27T13:06:00.000+01:00We are not in a lecture hall here and actually stu...We are not in a lecture hall here and actually students should be able to disagree with their teachers if they are wrong, teachers job to show them the error.<br /><br />But sometimes people just disagree - there are probably loads of different opinions on everything. I don't say you are wrong i say we disagree - there is a difference.<br /><br />My opinions are drawn both from study and from life experience - collected a lot of that in nearly 67 years.<br /><br />Perhaps we should just agree to differ?<br /><br />I don't know it all and neither do you, no-one does.annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-80005340592994854422009-04-27T13:04:00.000+01:002009-04-27T13:04:00.000+01:00Look Annetan you are just using terms 'ind' ' coll...Look Annetan you are just using terms 'ind' ' collective' without really examining them. It is you who seperate the ind and coll pre-theoretically.<br /><br />Again I suggest you look at GH Mead Mind self and society. He is a early 20C social philosopher.<br /><br />Invoking material / ideal is no help. What is matter Annetan? Shall we start with quantum chromodynamics, string theory, branes? Do you see the problemn? Why get at me I am trying to help.<br /><br />I am giving you a grand unified totalising theory of everything (for nothing and anon), cut me some slack jeeze.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-46588969078585242622009-04-27T12:59:00.000+01:002009-04-27T12:59:00.000+01:00Annetan (we are ob crossing wires :))
Look Anneta...Annetan (we are ob crossing wires :))<br /><br />Look Annetan I do appreciate the issue re communication (duh). <br /><br />I was a lecturer (and sure there are plenty of crap ones) and a good one. How should I attribute the cause of confusion / misunderstanding etc? Me, the 'student', the message /theory, an interaction?<br /><br />I didn't spend my time sneering at the students for being stupid, but I wasn't impressed by those occasional ones who knew it all already or expected it to be a democratic process. I'm sure a bunch of kids would all agree about all sorts of obvious truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-62225303699808761382009-04-27T12:57:00.000+01:002009-04-27T12:57:00.000+01:00Inividual v collective are not mutually exclusive-...Inividual v collective are not mutually exclusive- its not either or is both.<br /><br />Collective action is often needed to establish rights of individuals.<br /><br />Its being exclusively individualistic or exclusively collective that is disastrous.<br /><br />WE are not bees we need a balance between them.<br /><br />I'm not an idealist I am a materialist.annetan42https://www.blogger.com/profile/01250598516297935480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141707904735688626.post-79927272723289033042009-04-27T12:47:00.000+01:002009-04-27T12:47:00.000+01:00Its bourgious because you are setting an individua...Its bourgious because you are setting an individuals interests over that of an abstract class. Love is bourgious too.<br /><br />Get real Annetan, you're just spouting ideaology.<br /><br />(And I taugt /researched midwifery d making and practice, amongst so many things)<br /><br />You go on about collective action, the aggregate of ind rational self ineterst may be collective disaster.<br /><br />Your model of the ind is wrong (but shared).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com