12 November 2009

Daily Chat 12/11/09

Tibetan troops occupied the Tang dynasty capital of Chang'an for 15 days in 764.  Plymouth became the first town in England to receive a charter from Parliament in 1439.  Leon Trotsky was expelled for the Communist Party in 1927 and Seymour Hirsh broke the story of the My Lai Massacre in 1969.

Born today:  Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902), Alexander Borodin (1833-1887), Auguste Rodin (1840-1917), Roland Barthes (1915-1980), Princess Grace (1929-1982), Neil Young (1945), Nadia Comaneci (1961) and Mariella Frostrup (1962).

It is Constitution Day in Azerbaijan.


  1. On the 'This day in 1989' series on R4, they had Neil Young's 'Rocking in the Free World' playing behind the piece on the day the wall came down. Had a little blub.

  2. FAO anybody who has not seen that thauma et al have posted over at WDYWTTA a suggestion that Montana should be given an ATL piece can add a recommend if they agree...

    Thauma's post is at 11 Nov 1.29pm. There is a similar post at 11 Nov 1.40pm and I have made a suggestion for piece at Nov 11 1.53pm. BB makes another at 12 Nov 12.23 am.

    You may wish to add your recommends if you have not already done so.

    The rate of pay for a piece seems crap - but if it's for a piece on the USA welfare system which she has already all but written it's a few dollars more I guess....

  3. BB - great post on the vouchers thread.

  4. MOrning all

    Thanks Pip! I just lost my temper when I read some of those comments.

    I am sick of the Daily Mail readers infesting the place, tbh. I can understand why they do post on CiF because it is far and away the most user-friendly and "conversational" newspaper site out there, but I get fed up with the way they attack the working classes all the bloody time, as if poverty is something that could never happen to them.

    The middle-class house repossessions have barely started yet over here. They always take a bit longer to kick in. But if the early 90s are anything to go by, it will happen, and wipe the smile off the faces of some of these selfish bastards when they realise that they have to go cap in hand themselves to the state.

  5. "as if poverty is something that could never happen to them" - indeed. there's a strong vein of puritanism here, I think...The writer works, she wants to continue working, surely, surely dear God, that's better for society at large than throwing herself entirely on the mercy of the state. A small cost, rather than a big cost, and yet I'm guessing workhouses will be mentioned before long...

    Pah. Meh. Etc.

  6. Exactly. Cocooned in their little lives, they have no idea what other people's struggles are like. They really are incapable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes for 5 minutes to even try and understand.

    People are supposed to become more conservative in their old age, but the older I get the more angry I get with the inequities in society. Drives me bloody mad when people sneer at other people's misfortunes.

    Come the revolution...up against the wall "Bang Bang Bang". Freedom for Tooting! :o)

  7. Go BB Go - go for it girl!

    It won't be that long before we start to read bleeding heart articles from dispossessed middle class home-owners.(just heard repossessions are continuing to rise...)

    The developing rant about MOD bonuses is interesting. The comments from serving civil servants, explaining that the bonuses are a scam brought in to avoid annual incremental salary increases which were pensionable whilst the bonuses are not, are getting lost in the bloodlust....

  8. BB,

    I'm with you on the getting more angry about the right wing direction our society is taking.

    We are becoming a country of 60 million suspicious, angry atoms bouncing off each other.

    And that's what the powers in be want- divide and conquer.

    When looking at the right wing spakeyoubranes comments on CiF I always comfort myself with John Stuart Mills maxim:

    Conservatives aren't stupid people, but most stupid people are Conservatives.

  9. "Conservatives aren't stupid people, but most stupid people are Conservatives."

    I'd never heard that before, its a good'n.

  10. Your grace - brilliant also on the Orr thread.

    deano - can just see it. Hang on [channeling]

    Recent news on the level of repossessions is indeed worrying, but what much coverage of this has missed is the dire situation of the UK's second home market. Repossessions of these valuable assets, previously used to de-stress these hard-working families, and provide a much-needed source of additional income to pay Tabitha's extras at Benenden, means that a whole swathe of middle England are having to cut back on the necessities of life (BUPA, golf-club membership, the car for the nanny), or forcing mothers back into the workplace, sometimes having to work as much as five hours a week in their friend Isabel's craft shop in Wandsworth.

    This state of affairs is driving many to a state of collapse, requiring intensive course of feng shui and reiki massage - which of course is not available on the NHS - and this is simply unacceptable. The government has abandoned its base - the hard-working respectable middle-class family - to concentrate on the feckless poor.

    What do you reckon? What name should I use to pitch it?

    Meanwhile, the writer of the vouchers thread is being castigated as if she's drinking the child support in 40% proof.

  11. That is a good 'un, Your Grace. And as true today as it ever was.

  12. Oh my god. Womans Hour is currently interviewing Caprice and her three chihuahuas. 'Stinky' has actually made some good points about cultural relativism and the need for change to be owned by the women directly aff...no, sorry, can't go on...

  13. Just posted on the WADYYA thread about the childcare vouchers article. One saying cheers for a having real life person on and two for CiF to tell the author to ignore the moronic comments.

    Jay, excellent idea on the WADYYA thread also.

  14. PB - I reckon it's a delight! Unity Mitford would go down well with your natural audience.

    Your comment yesterday about personal hygiene was memorable LOL.

    Keep it up young miss and we shall have the perfect team of comedic writers here at UT.


    Dog Walking (after Mors et Vita - Judex: Gounod finishes playing on the radio)

  15. Will go and recommend your post, Your Grace!

  16. Does anyone know a good comparison site for home broadband that bases the price bit on the real price, not the "5p A MONTH!!!!!"* bit?

    *(for the first 5 nanoseconds, £500 a month thereafter)

  17. thank you deano - i do like an occasional flight of fancy...

  18. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  19. Welcome/welcome back(?) Rowan.

    I have a drizabone coat (full length) - it's a fantastic piece of pulling gear for an older man with a white beard. I have a wide brimmed waxed Barbour hat to complete the ensemble ( I really could with a horse though)

    When I wear it to the supermarket I get loads of attractive smiles from ladies. I bought mine in Aus so I always say it's the real thing cos I deserve it...

    I'm sure that Montana will be pleased to have your support. As you may know the lady lives in a small town in Iowa - not the best of places to find yourself without a job at this time.

  20. ooooh, just saw I had my comment zapped from yesterday regarding MaM's posts and their soporific qualities.

    Seems you're allowed to spread outrageous and offensive opinions about Empire and socialism whilst making unsubstantiated claim after claim after claim day after day after day.

    However, you're not allowed to take the piss out King Troll's comments.

    And hello Rowan, nice to meet you.

  21. I never read MaM's posts. Well, occasionally if they're short.

  22. "....really could do with a horse though..."

    Have to be more careful with my typing. I could find myself being followed by the RSPCA.

  23. Don't worry deano, I read "do" as if it were there anyway!

  24. I've just watched the John Harris Glasgow NE video and particularly enjoyed the BNP candidate having his arse handed back to him on a plate in the street.

    It raises some interesting issues (along with Jenni Russells thread) regarding how the establisment patronises and rubbishes the 'underclass' and working classes. ''It's all them that vote BNP'' etc.

    Both video and thread show up to a great extent middle class and elitist hypocrisy.

    I watched 'The sorrow and the pity' last week (Ophuls mighty 4 hour documentary which explodes the myth of the French resistance).

    Amongst the many interviewees were a cut glass accent RAF airman shot down over France and a couple of British undercover spies in occupied France.

    All of them said that the only people who hid them, fed them, took risks for them and helped the RAF pilot to escape were the workers and the peasant farmers.

    The RAF pilot in particular was vehement in his dislike of the bourgeois, saying at best they hindered his escape. And all through the film Ophuls highlights Bourgeois hypocrisy during the occupation and downright collaboration. Indeed he interviews two bourgeois who admit to as much.

    Just an observation.....

  25. AGHH sorry Rowan is not new but is me - somehow managed to post without signing her out and signing me in!

  26. Good to see you Edwin I was hoping you would be by today - any insights into the Glasgow NE

  27. Heavens if Rowan is a she I'm guilty of sex stereotyping on the basis of drizabone ownership...

  28. Edwin

    It's coming back to me..(I think) ....Primark is perchance where you bought yours???

  29. Yes I enjoyed that heckle also your Grace.

    Was at the new Byres Rd Waitrose this morning (new but already helping local charities) then up to Springburn Tesco this afternoon (you can smell the poverty in the air).

    The other thing that struck me about the Harris video (apart from good Tory candidate) was the Sheridan snarl at Harris about not challenging 'big business' parties in the way he challenges left-wing parties.

    It's astonishing to think that in such a poor constituency - surely one of the poorest in western Europe - that there is no credible left-Labour candidate.

    I get the feeling that the media are talking about the BNP maybe coming third in order to feel relieved if they 'only' get 5%. I'm not so sanguine.

  30. "(you can smell the poverty in the air)."

    It's the ammonia that comes from the breakdown of stale piss.

    I was brought up in a part of Leeds that in the 1950's had a couple of streets of very impoverished back to backs that if you walked the length of would cause your eyes to water.

    I was wondering about that view of the BNP also.

  31. The smell is a real thing, a mixture of chip fat and damp, particularly strong outside the Red Road flats (which are coming down soon).

    There is also a buried pond of chemicals on Fountainwell Rd from which come dark and acrid smells - we called it the 'Stinky Ocean' in the early 60s. Kids used to get bad injuries playing there. And on the hill overlooking the motorway is a stone circle built in 1978, apparently the first (astronomically aligned) stone circle built in Europe since neolithic times. It should be a tourist attraction, but it's not a safe place to be at any time.

  32. This comment has been removed by the author.

  33. Hi Edwin,

    I must admit, Springburn is not a part of the city I ever remember being in or going to. Mind you it's not the kind of place you would go to unless you had family or friends there.

    As with most areas of Glasgow, a once great manufacturing area (locomotives) with no manufacturing base anymore.

    As regards the BNP's chances, I do think the religious card will have a part to play. With the predominantly catholic area rejecting a party with strong links to the Unionist/protestant cause.

    It certainly looks like another politically bankrupt labourite getting the nod.

    ***Gas mask warning***Gas mask warning***Gas mask warning***

    Just saw a pro-immigration article appear on CiF, prepare for the noxious poisonous smell of trolls

    ***Please wait for the second siren before removing mask***

  34. Hm, actually it's quite a civilised debate so far.

  35. thauma - forgive me, it's been a long day - you're being sarcastic, yes?

  36. Oh boy.

    I'm not going to like that thread, am I?

  37. BB - I'll just say that, as a child of immigrants, that people like you make me sick.

    Or something.

    Head for the Harker one, that could turn out much better.

  38. Nope. I'm not going to comment on it. There is no point.

  39. Does anyone else think that lostcauses might be ultima?

  40. ahhhhhh.

    interesting, BB.

    was ultima punctuation-averse as well?

  41. I think it is a) the constant reference to feminism not being addressed properly and b) the constant reference to "cliques".

    This person has turned up out of nowhere with an agenda. I cannot for the life of me thing why they would even bother if they were that pissed off with a newspaper website that didn't appeal to them. It is just too much of an obvious axe to grind.

  42. Had a fascinating meeting today with a guy who's never worked a day in his life thanks to marrying into very big money. Wants to be treated as non-dom because he spent five years in a tax haven many moons ago and plans to return there someday.

    Splendid fellow!

  43. Hammer the bastard, Hank! :o)

    Hey! Maybe I could claim I was a non-dom because I used to live in France til 1994

  44. Its tempting Hank...I could consider giving up on being anti the death penalty with people like your chap. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks someone on the dole is a welfare scrounger.

  45. Well Montana got quite a lot of support over on WDYWT.. (they have started a new thread now).

    Thauma's post got in the region of 30 recommends Mine got about 20 and at least another eight posters said they wanted to see Montana ATL.

    I don't visit there that often so I have no idea of how the support she obtained compares with others that have been selected/asked to go ATL.

    Anybody here well versed in the mechanics of WDYWT??

    BB/Annetan when you went ATL - did they approach you and ask you to write? If so were you given a choice of topic? What can you tell us about how it works

    I saw someone (kiz I think) suggest that Montana should just put a piece in the post - is that good advice??

    I guess we give them some time and if they don't get our hostess ATL we'll have to start another campaign..

  46. You could make a stab at it with the help of an inventive accountant, especially if you claimed you intended to settle permanently in France when you went there and have only come back for a specific purpose, eg your boy's education, after which you'll be outta here.

    The law's a mess, and the instinctive respect the courts show to property rights means that some precedents have been set which leave all sorts of loopholes to be exploited.

  47. There were a couple of twats, but for the most part I thought people were saying, "this country is already overpopulated", which is something I (ducks) agree with. Me, I'd take in asylum seekers and a controlled number of skilled immigrants (in industries where we have shortages - although I'd also encourage training people who are already here) and try to keep net immigration in negative numbers.

    I'd also increase aid to poorer countries to raise people's standard of living and educational levels, especially where it can be done without the kleptocracy nicking all the dosh. To be funded by cancelling our warring, Trident, etc.

    I hope this doesn't make me evil (it's got nothing to do with race or 'bloody foreigners' - I generally like foreigners! - some of my best friends etc.), but I think we need to plan for a sustainable future and continuing on the population trends we have is not going to do that.

    Of course I see the value in meeting people from different cultures - perhaps a work exchange programme with other countries would be a good way to go. And not just for the wealthy elites, but say brickies, sparkies, plumbers, etc.

  48. In fact - to avoid the klepto problem, you could do a sort of Peace Corps-style exchange programme ('cos I was thinking there were going to be some countries a lot more popular than others that people would want to exchange to) where we sent qualified workers to developing countries to work on real projects, and in return took in people from those countries that we could train.

  49. Thaum

    Thad doesn't make you evil. That makes you pretty much on a par with what I believe. Asylum is a non-argument as far as I am concerned. We have a duty to offer sanctuary to people in grave danger - a duty that is underlined by our own capacity to go round creating havoc in the world. In terms of other migration, the points-based system, for all the cock-ups in its implementation, is the sanest way of doing it. Where it gets daft, though, is for the people who were already here under one regime who apply to renew their visas and find they have failed for some bloody ridiculous reason, like being 90 quid short in their bank account on one of the days when they were supposed to show 800 quid in the account for every day in a 3 month period. A bit of common sense should enter into the system and it doesnt.

  50. Hank

    Would I have to show I was paying tax in France though? Cos I am obviously not...

  51. BB - whew!

    I reckon I could probably qualify for non-dom status, but as I plan to stay in the lovely British Isles - or at least Europe - for the rest of my natural, it would be very wrong.

  52. BB - nope, you'd have paid tax on income earned in France when you were there, presumably, and you'd start paying it again when you went back.

    There's no necessity for the taxpayer to be paying tax in the other country in the years they were out of that other country.

    Domicile's a slippery concept. And I've just turned the meter on for this little consultation (-;

  53. I wouldn't dream of not paying my taxes here, thaum, tbh. In fact, I am one of those weirdos who would happily pay more taxes for better services. It is interesting to think, though, that someone can so easily get themselves declared as a non-dom here. Bizarre

  54. Thauma BB - see my post at 18.56 above.

    Would appreciate your views on this if you please.

    You are both saying interesting things on immigration and sustainability. It gets more complex in the context of an economy based on an ever increasing service sector and one with an ageing population.

    The Kinnock dictum - "We can't make a living by taking in each other's washing"

    It is certainly a topic for serious thought and discussion

  55. Deano - will have a think in a wee while - just getting dinner ready and bloody puter wants to reboot because of yet another damned Windows update.

  56. "...yet another damned Windows update..."

    Took half an hour for me the other day, thaum. I should go out for dinner, might be up and running when you return.

  57. Deano

    I was contacted by the CiF team and given a subject to write about. Then told to write it differently ;o)

    But I see no harm at all in Montana emailing them with an idea if she has one. They are always looking for new voices.

  58. Isn't Natalie a commissioning ed? Might be worth MW emailing her with her US welfare piece? Apparently, the Graun has occasionally published stuff that was just sent in...

  59. "they are always looking for new voices."

    Up to a point, BB.

    Just read the depression thread. I thought the article itself was very good, sympathetic and insightful. Good posts from some btl, including some UT stalwarts.

    Waltz's post was repulsive. It takes an enormous amount of hypocrisy and self-unawareness (have I made that up?) to slate a writer's spurious attempts to invoke sympathy for Brown while using it as yet another opportunity to give Brown a kicking.

    She needs to stop reading Ayn Rand.

  60. Haven't read that thread yet, Hank, so I will have a look at it.

    I have no time for Waltz. She is all the -ists bundled into one big lump of hatred. It really surprised me to read that she was gay in one of her posts. I have never come across someone so utterly intolerant of everything and everyone else that is different from her.

  61. Just read that Michael Izza blog, too. Fucking charlatan. He complains about a "growing army of tax collectors", neglecting to mention the rolling five year programme of cuts, which will surely increase once Osborne takes his chainsaw to the public sector.

    He's neglected to mention that the doubling of the tax code in the last ten years has been a direct consequence of his body's unrelenting exploitation of loopholes for the benefit of the wealthy.

    He's also omitted to mention that so many of the costs incurred by the public sector have been consultancy fees paid to his mates at Deloittes, pwc and the rest.

    Good to see that PeterG's already on the case, cos this is little more than a call for ever more swingeing cuts of HMRC staff, so that compliance activity is reduced and the ICAEW members can go merrily along charging big fees for new avoidance schemes, the legality of which are unlikely to be checked as HMRC's resources are cut to the bone.

  62. Kiz et al

    I know from my sometime wife's experience that an article offered on the 'off chance' to a newspaper sometimes works. But the route doesn't seem to garner a lot of support from some writers.

    The notion of a commissioning editor kinda implies that they ought to be taking some sort of initiative. I share Hank's view on the incestous nature of some of the Guard crew and thus have a concern about the theft of ideas without even the peanut they pay.

    I thus want to try to maximise what public (CiF) support we can and get the Guard to approach the lady if at all possible.

    Naturally if this is likely to be counter productive I would forget it.

    I hear what you say Hank - about Montana's strength and of course we are all agreed on that and that we are only talking peanuts.

    That said, being unemployed in a mid west town of less than 10,000 souls when you don't attend church ain't the easiest place to be without a job.. It ain't exactly the SE of the UK now is it?

    I guess I'm up for a kinda Ralph Nader revolt as far as the Guard and ATL goes - If we don't get what we want, we might want to make our dissatisfaction the agenda.

    Obviously we have to give some time and hear from the lady herself before any serious thought about next steps.

  63. deano - if kizbot is right and Natalie is a commissioning editor, I would suggest that Montana emails her directly with her ideas. Natalie strikes me as the most engaged with BTL opinion, as evidenced by her dialogue with olching some weeks back when she basically pleaded with him not to walk away from cif as he was one of the most interesting posters.

    "...we might want to make our dissatisfaction the agenda..."

    Been shown to be counterproductive in the past. There's clearly a disconnect between the editorial staff (seaton, reed et al) and the mods, and however much the ed staff might come BTL to say they're listening, it seems to me that the mods are autonomous of the eds.

    So, not sure a campaign would work beyond what you, thauma and others have done, ie suggest that she should go ATL.

    But yeh, agree with you entirely that it's Montana's call...

  64. Hank

    "There's clearly a disconnect between the editorial staff (seaton, reed et al) and the mods, and however much the ed staff might come BTL to say they're listening, it seems to me that the mods are autonomous of the eds."

    Not sure I understand your point here - I see and agree your observation re a "disconnect". It's that disconnect that Nader would naturally seek to exploit.

    It's the ed staff who decide who ATL and who gets the peanuts not the mods - No?

  65. Yep, it's the commissioning eds who decide who go ATL, but what I was querying, deano, was how effective a campaign showing your dissatisfaction would work.

    There's been similar campaigns in the past about modding policy, which Georgina for one promised to address but which ran into the brick wall of the mods' intransigence.

    So, what I'm saying is that the ed staff and the mod staff are two different beasts. And the mods don't respond positively to criticism or campaigns.

  66. Hi Deano,

    Stomach filled to overflowing with roast duck and accompaniments, and computer rebooted.

    I think the response to Montana's coming ATL was very good - quite a few people who are not part of the UT also seconded the motion - so hopefully they will ask her. I think they'd be doing themselves a serious favour because she could definitely write something that would set the page hits on fire, especially with the American contingent. ;-)

    If they employed her as a regular journalist on Cif America it'd go through the roof. You'd get all the right-wing nutcases falling over themselves to call her a traitor and worse.


    so many of the costs incurred by the public sector have been consultancy fees paid to his mates at Deloittes, pwc and the rest.

    So fucking true it makes me want to puke.

  67. Fucking hell, Jenkins has just put this one up: Better for Britain. Better for Europe. I'm backing Brown for EU president.

    I haven't read it yet, so perhaps the subs have got it wrong.

  68. "If they employed (MH) as a regular journalist on Cif America it'd go through the roof. You'd get all the right-wing nutcases falling over themselves to call her a traitor and worse."

    You're not wrong, thauma. Check Lola's latest thread for evidence.

  69. Hank, am still flabbergasting over Jenkins' article. Being Jenkins, his reasons are rather more cynical than mere Labour-pushing, but why on earth should the EU take any British politician seriously as a candidate, and Brown of all people? (Admittedly better than Blair, but not a lot.)

    Just when I was starting to feel a lot of empathy for Brown over the letter thing, Jenkins goes and does this....

  70. Hank

    "what I was querying, deano, was how effective a campaign showing your dissatisfaction would work."

    At this junction I'm doing no more than thinking out aloud with friends.

    I watched the response to the outrage at the mods - it had a lot to giving an impetus to this great site. It was why I came here.

    With great respect I would not credit it with the title of a campaign. If was one it wasn't the best one I've ever seen. It was organic and it was honest and sincere but I could never detect it's leadership.

    The mods were always going to be in very strong position given the libel laws of the UK - "if we don't control you will finish up bankrupt" is a big card to have in your hand.

    The Eds are in a different position.I'm thinking about pressure/awkwardness/cussedness applied to a commercial sensitive vein.

    I find that a little humorous bloodymindedness often results in the opposed party suing for peace on the grounds that a war of attrition ain't worth the candle.It costs so much for no real return.

    It's all about getting them to understand the smoke signals before they become entrenched.

  71. Thamua - glad to read what you have to say.

    I'm not into WDYWT at all but I was reading it like you. I hope we are right and I agree with what you say.

    I don't put the profile of tossers into my favourites/bookmarks. But I have Montana (and you and most of the regular ladies here) You are all worth the reading which I do on a non stalking regular basis.

  72. Haven't read Jenkins yet, thauma. Am alternately salivating over Naomi's latest article and despairing at the fact that the "fat is a humanist issue" has got 700 posts, while far more serious blogs get little traffic.

    BB complained that Cif has been hijacked by Mail readers. That was always one of my complaints, and almost certainly got me terminated, because it goes to the heart of the Cif project, and one that you've hinted at with your endorsement of Montana, ie that the commissioning eds are more concerned with generating controversy, page hits and ad revenue than with serious debate.

    That's not to say, obviously, that MH wouldn't produce valuable stuff, but to reinforce the idea that Cif is a commercial operation in the same way as the Sun is. And that it has the same amount of integrity.

    Anyway, will read Lord Si and get back to you!

  73. Hank

    I should have said "lacked visible/obvious leadership". What was going on in the phonebooth was beyond my observation.

  74. Hank - I think you'll find that you'll have to fight Jay off in the salivating-over-Naomi dept. Haven't read hers yet; will go and do so. She makes more sense than almost anyone.

    Deano - thanks! Am honoured to be a bookmark.

  75. Good for Hermione, she's brought up the subject of Montana going ATL on the new thread.

  76. Klein's thread seems to have disappeared, so I'm going for Adesioye's ... will have to be last one of the night, I think.

  77. OK, have read Jenkins. Didn't understand what his point was. Read him again. Have concluded that he's just peddling an economically liberal line and a politically conservative/nationalist one. Other than that, I really am none the wiser about the reasons for his, and the eurosceptics, zealous contempt for Yurp.

    Quite happy to see him add fuel to the fire though. It will destroy the Tories within their first term of govt.

    "I could never detect its leadership."

    It was organic, I think, deano. There was back then in those sepia-tinted days a shared sense of outrage, no cliques and no leaders.

    As for Naomi, thaum, I genuinely meant salivating over her writing rather than her looks. She is, imo, the most interesting and provocative writer out there at the moment.

    But, yeh, she's a bit of a fox too (-;

    Oh, and back to deano, am I a bookmark?

  78. Hank

    When I first got online, last October but one, and became aware of CiF I did bookmark you other chirpy males including Physiocrat and Scorpio1 and many others of wit and/or wisdom.

    Most of the guys have now fallen victim to testro fueled anger or boredom such that it became impossible to follow them because I would have nothing to do with phonebooths.

    Whenever I did recognise you on political or economic threads I was delighted - and still am.

    Half bake - when you are fully baked you will be a thing of awe along with all your close male comrades here.

  79. Good God, have read Lola's thread and it's even worse than I'd feared.

  80. Righty-ho, off to bed now. Till the morrow, brave compatriots!

  81. Night thaum

    Hank - seconded on the Naomi Klein front. (Not for the fox bit though.)

    Deano - it was the likes of Hank, Jay and MF that first enticed me over here.

  82. "Scorpio1" - scipio1, deano? He's not a regular visitor but always worth reading.

    My fave posters, FWIW, and present company excepted, are ellis, easterman, PeterG, LesterJ and hideandseeker. I've learned a lot from some of them, and had my core views reinforced by the others.

    My least fave posters are legion. And immune to banning orders.

  83. The most invisible leader is the one who is simply described as I agree with " " and/ or I agree with " "'s observation that " " had so much of value to say.

    Now let us all recommend Ms Gingold's good sense...

  84. I've got a bit of a girl-on-girl crush going on about Clunie at the moment. Well, not really, but I have to say that she posts some brilliant stuff on a wide range of subjects.

    She has been really superb on the Battle for Glasgow North East thread. She is one of my fave posters right now.

    I have a soft spot for Hermione and Imogen too.

    You are right about the ones you mention too, Hank. Solid posters with solid POVs.

  85. It was Scipio1 Hank (spelling and syntax not my forte)- an Oxford grad my son but one with a sharp mind and an interesting sensibility of decency in my experience.

    Not a visitor here to the best of my knowledge - but a finer poster with a good understanding of complex matters. Very much underrated in my book.

    He always gives me concern to pause and think.

  86. And it's the likes of you, BB, and others that keep me coming back. Seriously.

    I don't miss being able to comment on Cif anymore. Happy just to have the opportunity to debate issues on here without having to deal with the trolls that clog debate over there.

    BW said the other day that this is a valuable place and that Montana had done a great job in facilitating it. He's right.

    So big kisses to Montana. XX

    Even bigger kisses for giving a platform for those of us who dismiss others as "morons" or "phonies".

    C'mon, guys, I've not gone completely soft...!

  87. Always best to have a soft spot for Hermione and Imogen, BB. They keep a close eye on us (-;

    I've got a soft spot for Dormouse, MAM and Pairubu myself. But burial plots are expensive...

    Yep, deano, scipio1 - a fine poster.

  88. Hahahahaha!! You? Soft? Pah! ;o)

    Seconded re Montana though - she keeps this thing ticking over day after day. The time difference pisses me off because she is usually just logging on by the time I am going to bed, if not already in bed.

  89. It's the reality of the boiler bill - now grow up!

    Double big kisses to Montana - 2(xx) that's actually more than double but we don't want to get into an idle and empty competition.

    BW has admirable sense in a younger person - he really is right (on this occasion

  90. I'd never get into an idle and empty competition with a Yorkshireman, deano. But...

    BW a younger person..? He's the same age as me and Mr Fish. 25. We're all 25. And gorgeous.

    Tbh, I can't speak for BW, but I've met MF and I can vouch for the fact that he's gorgeous. If you can imagine how Johnny Depp might look if he hadn't had so much psychic damage.

    And MF'll no doubt do likewise, ie I look like Ray Winstone before Nil By Mouth took its toll.

  91. Gah

    The older I get the more I am beginning to look like bloody Vanessa Feltz only with red hair and without the fake tan - and a good few less pounds too... but.... sigh.

  92. You do all know you twats that you are being stalked by some sort of tosser who will have you in play or book without your permission.

    It's not me I am an nearby Idle working man - I would not betray you.

    We must all hope that we are treated as well as Thomas did those of his affection in "Under Milkwood"

  93. It's not fair, BB. We men grow more distinguished while you women just grow.

    It's not surprising that we look for younger models.

    Best wishes

    Len Firewood.

  94. Cheeky bugger. Never heard of cougars then I take it... :p

  95. Don't tell me - I know. There is no n after the a unless the next is a vowel...

    Oh fuck I wish I had never been to that school..

  96. " It's not surprising that we look for younger models."

    Are you fucking brain dead? I like to have something sensible to talk to whilst I shag.

    I have tried to imagine what it must be like to fuck a Tory or have a lass with a passion for designer bag - I failed.

  97. Fekking CiF tech issues - I have just fired 4 blanks on the Glasgow thread. I give up!

  98. Cougars?

    Wtf is that all about? Seriously, having met this guy today who's been pretty much a kept man all his life...I had no respect for him at all,saw him as completely emasculated in the true sense of the word, and got the impression he'd felt the same way..

    Seriously, wtf are cougars?

    And why should "kept men" be seen as a feminist triumph?

    Why should we be celebrating "strong, rightwing, kickass women"?

    Seems to me that feminism has failed if all it has done is elevated bullying twats with the right chromosomes to positions of power over those who might have the wrong chromosomes but the right ideas.

    I really don't "get" feminism.

  99. A fine post Hank

    Truth is a man need a fine partner at his back in a vile and dangerously individual world

    and so does a woman at hers.

  100. As ever fantastic company - night comrades.

  101. Campbell (lab spinner) is amazing on the "Daily Politics" now on BBC2 - watch on iplayer tomorrow

  102. "I really don't get feminism."

    To expand on that, I'm a socialist. I believe in equal rights for all, regardless of sex, race or class.

    One of the things that has always pissed me off about the Guardian generally but Cif in particular has been the concept of feminism as female supremacism, which is intrinsic to the blogs of Bindel and Melissa McEwan.

    Feminism died the day that Thatcher got elected as leader of the Tory Party for me. At that point, it became clear that it was just another middle class lie, a means to deny the class struggle, a means by which right-wing bigots got to get what they wanted while ridiculing and demeaning the working classes' plea for real equality.

    The result of Thatcher's enthronement, and the equal opportunites legislation of the mid 70s, is all around us. Working class people with no rights, no trade unions to protect them, no social or council housing worth the name since it's all been sold off to middle class profiteers.

    On the plus side though, we have loads of independent, educated women. Spirited women, feminists all, who believe in equality, as long as that equality is all about their political rights and says nothing about their social commitments.

    Which is why Brusselsexpats gets to go to the opera, sneering down her nose at the morons and phonies on here, ignoring all the while that she's none too bright and would have probably been a scullery maid if not for the lefties she affects to despise.

  103. "scullery maid"

    Me mam was one of them.

    That astute observation - of service to service in two generations - is a thing worthy of discussion tomorrow.

  104. No, deano, it's really not worthy of a discussion tomorrow. The key players, the plastic feminists, ie bru and kiz, have no idea of the debt they owe to the working class or organised labour. They think it's all down to the editors of Cosmo, or to Mary Quant.

    There really is no point talking to airbrushed lipsticked airheads.

  105. "Scullery: Maid or Born ?" - a new show coming to BBC3 soon, starring Penelope Keith as Peter Pothelswaite, and Jeffrey Archer as the entire City of Bruges.

  106. "Jeffrey Archer as the entire City of Bruges"...and Antwerp played by Holly Golightly, played by Peter Mandelson, played by Danny LaRue.

  107. And every few weeks he goes and bangs the shit out of Luxembourg and Strasbourg, played by the Mitchell Brothers, in "Europes Hardest Sky Wide Arse Football Channels"

  108. Hank - you are overlooking that this place is also a kinda of Uni.

    Folk call by here to be engaged in proper questions of matters of concern/interest/enquiry so to speak.

    My comment on Campbell (Blair's spinner) on tonight's BBC2 late nite politic show(Abbot/Portillo) vanished .

    The programme is worth a view on iplayer if you missed it.

    Archer as Bruges - how do you do it BW, I adore the constructs...

  109. That's probably enough similes
    - Ed

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  111. Hank

    I'm not prepared to sacrifice my daughter and granddaughter to extremists without wishing to promote a civilised alternative.

    Since I expect them to join me on the barricades I owe them an exposure to an intelligent discourse as an absolute minimum

    Half an hour approx to Glasgow result...